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alexamenos
12-01-2008, 12:14 PM
Well, we have several years of proof that he wasn't...

I don't think we had several years of proof of this -- we had several years of a player developing and showing some flashes....yeah, there were some holes in his game but he also showed up big time now and again.....and to this day he remains my one reasonable memory from that debacle by the bay in to end the '07 season.

However, one ten game stretch wouldn't have me building the offense around him instead of Dirk.

yeah, 25 or 30 games of getting pounded while attacking the rim might have an effect on him later in the season. It'll be interesting to see how long he can keep at this pace.

DevinHarriswillstart
12-01-2008, 12:40 PM
Well, we have several years of proof that he wasn't...

Injury and erratic playing time.

And growth.

LonghornDub
12-01-2008, 12:47 PM
Injury and erratic playing time.

And growth.

Speaking of which, one significant downside with Devin was that he gets hurt a lot. Of course, that's just a result of his suepr-aggressive style of play, but he can't help the team if he's not playing.

Josh also gets hurts a lot, which is why I wouldn't mind trading him for Kaman.

Underdog
12-01-2008, 01:01 PM
Speaking of which, one significant downside with Devin was that he gets hurt a lot. Of course, that's just a result of his suepr-aggressive style of play, but he can't help the team if he's not playing.

I was going to bring this fact up in big bold letters as soon as he gets injured (again) this season - he's already missed 3 games so far...

basketballgirl25
12-01-2008, 01:22 PM
if Devin gets injured Nets are screwed, if Vince gets injured Nets are more screwed. But players can get injured on any time the team just needs to roll with the punches that comes at them

LSMF
12-01-2008, 01:56 PM
I know I'm gonna get flack for this but who is having the better season so far?

Dirk or Harris?

You can easily make a case that Harris is. I think that is something to put into perspective.

What kills me is that both of these guys should be on the same team. :mad:

DevinHarriswillstart
12-01-2008, 02:09 PM
I was going to bring this fact up in big bold letters as soon as he gets injured (again) this season - he's already missed 3 games so far...

I've brought this point up twice this season so I'm being fair.

But man, 25.6 pt, 6.3 ass, 1.3 st, 3 to 1 a/to, 11.8 ft attempts per game, 49% from the field, a PER of 28.37.....you can't tell me that doesn't make you swallow a little harder.

I love Kidd, but I also love Harris. Sigh. Just that we might not have Kidd next season. Why!!!! Haha.

alexamenos
12-01-2008, 02:13 PM
I definitely agree that Devin's injury proneness is a downside for him, but fwiw I'd take the risk of a point guard getting injured now and again over the certainty that a point guard is going to get very old very soon.

LSMF
12-01-2008, 02:18 PM
Look at it this way Devin is going to miss games sometimes because of injuries, And J-Kidd is going to miss games when he retires in about two years.

bernardos70
12-01-2008, 02:41 PM
if Devin gets injured Nets are screwed, if Vince gets injured Nets are more screwed. But players can get injured on any time the team just needs to roll with the punches that comes at them

Who's talking about the Nets, gurl?

bernardos70
12-01-2008, 02:45 PM
Look at it this way Devin is going to miss games sometimes because of injuries, And J-Kidd is going to miss games when he retires in about two years.

He'll also come off the books then.....

LSMF
12-01-2008, 02:55 PM
He'll also come off the books then.....

But if we're still over the Cap then what is there to be excited about?

bernardos70
12-01-2008, 02:55 PM
Such revisionist history. Suppose we trade Bass like everyone wants. Like Harris, he looked very promising last year, I don't think anyone can disagree with that. That 18-foot shot was as reliable as the sun rising from the east. Now he's slumping. Say we trade him for some Antonio McDyess, and Bass starts averaging 20 and 10. Now it's the management's fault? Who could have seen it?

Harris had a lot of time to pan out here. Lots. There's TONS of players who "show flashes" all their careers, but ultimately never pan out. Unrealized potential makes up a big part of the NBA. How many times, in a Roulette Table, would you bet on #14 after losing 4 straight times just because the ball landed on #15 a couple of times?

Underdog
12-01-2008, 03:12 PM
Such revisionist history. Suppose we trade Bass like everyone wants. Like Harris, he looked very promising last year, I don't think anyone can disagree with that. That 18-foot shot was as reliable as the sun rising from the east. Now he's slumping. Say we trade him for some Antonio McDyess, and Bass starts averaging 20 and 10. Now it's the management's fault? Who could have seen it?

Harris had a lot of time to pan out here. Lots. There's TONS of players who "show flashes" all their careers, but ultimately never pan out. Unrealized potential makes up a big part of the NBA. How many times, in a Roulette Table, would you bet on #14 after losing 4 straight times just because the ball landed on #15 a couple of times?

I'd say Diop is a prime example of this - tell me the Cleveland front office wasn't kicking themselves when they saw him stifling the likes of Tim Duncan in the playoffs for us a couple seasons ago...

On the flip side - do you think they're missing him this season?


Basketball is a game of runs - sometimes that rule encompasses a player's career too...

alexamenos
12-01-2008, 03:21 PM
Harris had a lot of time to pan out here. Lots. There's TONS of players who "show flashes" all their careers, but ultimately never pan out. Unrealized potential makes up a big part of the NBA. How many times, in a Roulette Table, would you bet on #14 after losing 4 straight times just because the ball landed on #15 a couple of times?

The problem I have with this statement is that Harris was panning out here. He was the 2nd best player on the team the first half of last season, and he was about the only guy to play like he had a pair of 'nads against the dubs.

When Harris was here he was getting to the line with alarming regularity and playing pretty good D -- he was a real playmaker on defense. What he wasn't doing in Big D was "making other players better"--that was the complaint, and that was presumably why we needed a "real point guard", like we have now.

dirno2000
12-01-2008, 03:22 PM
I haven't denied that once. If you remember from the past, I'm one of the bigger Devin backers on this board. It just peeves me when an Ex-Mav is getting more attention than the current Mavericks. I wish Devin well and I want him to do well when he's not playing Dallas. But the love-fest is over the top and frankly, pretty annoying.

That just it. You go from being one of his biggest supporters when he was here to subtly trashing him after the trade to saying he stinks about a month ago. So were you being disingenuous then or now. I can see liking him less but not the sudden shift in player evaluation. I'll give Chum this much credit, he never thought much of Devin while he was here.

As far as the “lovefest” that’s happening at a number of different forums. People are talking about Devin Harris’ breakout. Even if he never played for the Mavs we’d be talking about it in the general NBA thread. But the fact is, not only did he play here, we paid a premium to send him away. You don’t think that’s going to get mentioned?

DirkFTW
12-01-2008, 03:22 PM
Basketball is a game of runs - sometimes that rule encompasses a player's career too...

So, a career-long case of the runs causes players to try to end games for the sake of a potty break? Interesting theory...

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc168/mouseanony/baron.jpg

LSMF
12-01-2008, 03:24 PM
Such revisionist history. Suppose we trade Bass like everyone wants. Like Harris, he looked very promising last year, I don't think anyone can disagree with that. That 18-foot shot was as reliable as the sun rising from the east. Now he's slumping. Say we trade him for some Antonio McDyess, and Bass starts averaging 20 and 10. Now it's the management's fault? Who could have seen it?

Harris had a lot of time to pan out here. Lots. There's TONS of players who "show flashes" all their careers, but ultimately never pan out. Unrealized potential makes up a big part of the NBA. How many times, in a Roulette Table, would you bet on #14 after losing 4 straight times just because the ball landed on #15 a couple of times?

Then its the Management's fault for not seeing that. Almost every Mav Fan knew that Devin would eventually become an All-star. We knew that Avery was holding Devin back, but even though Avery held Devin back he still managed to kick some Major tail (Just ask Tony Longoria in 2006), he and J-ho were the only ones who showed up vs the Warriors. I always loved Devin since that series, while Dirk and Co decided to just bow down to the Warriors Devin played with his heart. I still remember when Devin couldn't shoot for crap. Anyone remember when Devin used to release the ball at the end of his jump instead of its peak lol?

Why I blame the Management is that he didn't just "show flashes" he was getting better every single year, even under Avery's tight leash he still got better. I used to see him and Dirk laughing during warmups, they we're bonding. He had already become this team's second best player in my mind. Then he got hurt, and I started hearing the rumors of the Trade. I laughed the first time I heard it because I was sure Cubes wouldn't be so foolish. Then later Cubes said" Step away from your crack dealer" on the trade. I was so relieved at that point, shortly after the trade went through. I was shocked and angry for many months. Eventually I understood Kidd's game better so I liked him much more. My pain from the trade was gone. But now that I see Devin is playing at a high level and even a higher level that I ever thought he would reach, some of that pain from that trade is returning.

dirno2000
12-01-2008, 03:38 PM
The problem I have with this statement is that Harris was panning out here. He was the 2nd best player on the team the first half of last season, and he was about the only guy to play like he had a pair of 'nads against the dubs.

I was about to make your first point but you beat me to it.

On your second point Josh, as far as I can remember, was the only Maverick to put up better numbers in the playoffs than the regular season that year. I believe Devin was about the same and the other key players were well below.

bernardos70
12-01-2008, 03:48 PM
Almost every mav fan saw that he would become an all star? You mean those fans that filled the AAC with Welcome Home Jason Kidd signs? I was one of the fans relieved that Devin left for Kidd. In fact, a large part of the argument that we overpaid in that trade was because we included draft picks, not because of Devin.

I'll just say this: let's see how he pans out all year, then we'll talk. That'll be the determining factor. I looked at Devin as a mav and I didn't see much I liked. You started off the other way around.

BTW, you forgot to include Finley in your sig. Left to be an NBA Champion.

fluid.forty.one
12-01-2008, 04:02 PM
Knowing chum, I wouldn't be surprised if he's reverting to Nash-schtick here.

doesn't make the point any less valid

LSMF
12-01-2008, 04:05 PM
Almost every mav fan saw that he would become an all star? You mean those fans that filled the AAC with Welcome Home Jason Kidd signs? I was one of the fans relieved that Devin left for Kidd. In fact, a large part of the argument that we overpaid in that trade was because we included draft picks, not because of Devin.

I'll just say this: let's see how he pans out all year, then we'll talk. That'll be the determining factor. I looked at Devin as a mav and I didn't see much I liked. You started off the other way around.

BTW, you forgot to include Finley in your sig. Left to be an NBA Champion.

Its funny how it sounds like your trying to say that Devin hurt this team. Maybe im interpreting you wrong but " I was one of the fans relieved that devin left for Kidd" sounds like something you say when you trade away a player that was hurting you're team.

fluid.forty.one
12-01-2008, 04:10 PM
Almost every mav fan saw that he would become an all star? You mean those fans that filled the AAC with Welcome Home Jason Kidd signs? I was one of the fans relieved that Devin left for Kidd. In fact, a large part of the argument that we overpaid in that trade was because we included draft picks, not because of Devin.

I'll just say this: let's see how he pans out all year, then we'll talk. That'll be the determining factor. I looked at Devin as a mav and I didn't see much I liked. You started off the other way around.

BTW, you forgot to include Finley in your sig. Left to be an NBA Champion.

It's pretty funny... all the people who were mildy mad about the Devin-Kidd trade are now out in full force screaming "WE KNEW HE'D BE THE BEST EVARRR!" like they somehow foresaw this.

The most I saw anyone ever post was that he'd probably be an all-star in the east a few years from now.. actually, like you said, the biggest complaint was the picks not Devin. NOBODY saw this coming.

fluid.forty.one
12-01-2008, 04:13 PM
and the ___ shots per game stat is a little misleading. It doesn't take into consideration all the possessions where he's getting the FTs. Those should also be considered Devin Harris shots.. and he would not be getting nearly that many in Dallas because he wouldn't be as far up on the pecking order.

LSMF
12-01-2008, 04:17 PM
Just answer this simple question. Was the Jason Kidd trade for Devin Harris a good trade?

bernardos70
12-01-2008, 04:20 PM
He wasn't hurting the Mavs as much as he was hurting my eyes. Bricked after bricked jumpshot. This was after he was said to have shot over 500 shots every practice or something. Why would I have hope he'd turn it around when he never showed that he would? I hope I don't see you in a GDT calling JET a streaky shooter if you're supporting Devin so fervently. Actually, if you do, I'll take that as a compliment to JET, cause Devin was consistent with his jumpshot, if you know what I mean.....

fluid.forty.one
12-01-2008, 04:21 PM
Just answer this simple question. Was the Jason Kidd trade for Devin Harris a good trade?

at the time it seemed like a good trade. obviously DH has progressed in a way that no one saw coming. Just because you were against the trade doesn't mean you foresaw what he would become this year.

hindsight is 20/20 but it shouldn't allow you to be an arrogant prick about it.

remember when Dirk came into the league, people said at best he would be KVH. They made an educated guess based on the information they had at the time. Their prediction wasn't stupid, even though it turned out to be wrong. Does that make any sense to you?

LSMF
12-01-2008, 04:27 PM
at the time it seemed like a good trade. obviously DH has progressed in a way that no one saw coming. Just because you were against the trade doesn't mean you foresaw what he would become this year.

hindsight is 20/20 but it shouldn't allow you to be an arrogant prick about it.

remember when Dirk came into the league, people said at best he would be KVH. They made an educated guess based on the information they had at the time. Their prediction wasn't stupid, even though it turned out to be wrong. Does that make any sense to you?

Fluid calm down, im not being an arrogant prick about anything. And I can't say that I foresaw him become this good but I did think he would become an all star some day. And what kills me that some people can't admit the truth about this trade, you can read my old posts and see how much I hated Kidd when he first got here. I love Kidd now but there is no doubt in my mind we made a bad trade. Thats all im trying to say.

fluid.forty.one
12-01-2008, 04:29 PM
another overlooked point is that our offense isn't the problem this year. we hung 100+ on the lakers, one of the very top defensive teams in the league. our defense is the problem and IMO Kidd is a better (especially "team") defender than Devin.

alexamenos
12-01-2008, 04:37 PM
Fluid calm down, im not being an arrogant prick about anything. And I can't say that I foresaw him become this good but I did think he would become an all star some day. And what kills me that some people can't admit the truth about this trade, you can read my old posts and see how much I hated Kidd when he first got here. I love Kidd now but there is no doubt in my mind we made a bad trade. Thats all im trying to say.

I'm on record as describing the trade as an unmitigated bust. It's fair enough to argue the result of the trade wasn't foreseeable, but now that the results are in I think it's none too early to assess the damage.

And I certainly didn't see Harris scoring 47 points in a game -- and I don't predicate my judgment that the mavs made a bad trade because Harris is now putting up some gawdy numbers in NJ. I say this because the mavs aren't as good of a basketball team now as they were before the trade.

ty
12-01-2008, 04:37 PM
another overlooked point is that our offense isn't the problem this year. we hung 100+ on the lakers, one of the very top defensive teams in the league. our defense is the problem and IMO Kidd is a better (especially "team") defender than Devin.

Kidd can guard the 1 through 4 spots.

Devin can only guard 1 through...1.5?

basketballgirl25
12-01-2008, 04:48 PM
well Devin got Eastern Conference Player of the Week not suprising
http://www.nba.com/nets/news/Harris_EC_PoW_081201.html

way to go Dev!

DevinHarriswillstart
12-01-2008, 04:52 PM
The main thing that sticks out for me in the trade failing is that team assists are virtually the same this year as last year. Thinking assists would go up dramatically having Kidd at the point hasn't happened. Too many players on our team don't know how to pass the damn ball lol.

What really bugs me is that the FO can make up for these mistakes if they actually tried doing something other than thinking a major piece is coming for Stackhouse. I don't think this "have your cake and eat it too" approach about contending now but being players in the summer of 2010 FA market is going to work.

The Crippler
12-01-2008, 05:15 PM
Kidd can guard the 1 through 4 spots.

Devin can only guard 1 through...1.5?

Kidd can't guard a good 3 or 4 any better than I can. And I'm watching the game on tv from my house.

The Crippler
12-01-2008, 05:19 PM
He's averaging 12 FTA's a game while Kidd has shot 13 FT's all year. That kind of makes up for the fact that he can't make a great entry pass to the post.

Everyone needs to read this fact over and over. Just amazing.

ty
12-01-2008, 05:21 PM
Hey guys, I heard Devin Harris isn't coming back.

Can somebody confirm this rumor?!

The Crippler
12-01-2008, 05:22 PM
I haven't denied that once. If you remember from the past, I'm one of the bigger Devin backers on this board. It just peeves me when an Ex-Mav is getting more attention than the current Mavericks. I wish Devin well and I want him to do well when he's not playing Dallas. But the love-fest is over the top and frankly, pretty annoying.

then don't read the thread. It's clearly about Devin Harris in the non-mav section of the board, you are not forced to open it.

alexamenos
12-01-2008, 05:25 PM
The main thing that sticks out for me in the trade failing is that team assists are virtually the same this year as last year. Thinking assists would go up dramatically having Kidd at the point hasn't happened. Too many players on our team don't know how to pass the damn ball lol.

Here's a fun little trivia question: Who was the last point guard to average more than 7.0 assists per game for the eventual NBA champion?

The thing is....basketball ain't football and the point guard ain't a quarterback. That is, how many assists per game the point guard gets is the most over-rated stat in the book. The one pass per game that looks so highlight incredible is worth exactly the same as two very boring free throws or little low-post move....at the end of the day a bunch of razzle dazzle passes don't translate into wins, plain and simple....

so yeah, Jason Kidd came to town and gave us some razzle dazzle passing***, but that and 75cents will get you a soda.

and more than this -- there's no reason on earth to think that having kidd on the team will make anybody else a better passer....I mean, how much better of a passer is brad johnson because tony romo is on his team?





***I should add that I love a lot of other things that kidd does...the hustle, rebounds, heady plays....that's why I think Kidd is one of the finest role players in the league.

The Crippler
12-01-2008, 05:27 PM
Jason Kidd is a wife-beating scumbag.

Devin Harris is a stand-up guy that lived across the street from my wife's sister when he lived here and always was cool to me and looked out for her.

Guess which one I like better?

FreshJive
12-01-2008, 05:57 PM
Here's a fun little trivia question: Who was the last point guard to average more than 7.0 assists per game for the eventual NBA champion?

Dwayne Wade. Not very long ago.

Tokey41
12-01-2008, 06:01 PM
Jason Kidd is one hell of an expensive role player. Cuban seems to have some sort of weird fetish for overpaying for those types.

alexamenos
12-01-2008, 06:01 PM
Dwayne Wade. Not very long ago.

actually he average 6.7 for the season (ie, less than 7.0)....he and Kobe in fact were their respective team leaders in assists, so in at least four out of the last many seasons the team leader in assists wasn't even the point guard.

so the question remains, who was the last point guard to average more than 7.0 assists per game for the eventual nba champion?

DirkFTW
12-01-2008, 06:06 PM
The other thread got delorted soo...

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc168/mouseanony/devin2.jpg http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc168/mouseanony/devin.jpg

EricaLubarsky
12-01-2008, 06:23 PM
Hey guys, I heard Devin Harris isn't coming back.

Can somebody confirm this rumor?!

Rick Bucher confirmed today that Harris is actually a Net.

Dtownsfinest
12-01-2008, 06:47 PM
I love it how people who love Devin have to use the box score to defend him when things that don't appear on the box scores are what makes point guards really special.

I don't care if Harris played the same position as Dirk. I don't wish Harris the point guard was here. I just wish Harris the player is here. He was a young body with potential. Mavs blew it on giving up Harris and the 1st round picks and essentially our mid-level exception. I'm over it though. At this point i've just become a Harris fan and wish him the best. Maybe he'll return when he's 35 or 36.

I can't tell if some of you guys are serious in blaming Avery for holding Devin back. From what I've observed, it looks like Devin's developed a pretty serious pullup jumper over the offseason that he never had here. That's not Avery's fault that he could never hit it consistently and therefore was somewhat one-dimensional as a player (albeit still a pretty good dimension). I don't think anyone could have realistically predicted that he would develop it so quickly, but props to him for doing so. Moreover, he seems to be getting more love from the refs than he ever got here (I haven't really watched him enough to know whether it's justified or not). But regardless, a jump of about 7 extra free throw attempts a game is going to help anyone's scoring average.

I might have been wrong on Devin. We'll see, maybe that pullup jumper stops falling (although it looks pretty good in all the highlights). I do think the fact that he's averaging close 12 free throws is a bit of an aberration and can't see him averaging more than 8 for the season. So I do think that scoring average will come down. But he does seem to have taken a step forward.

I agree. The way Avery handled Harris is the same way Popovich handled Parker. Hell Pop handled him worse. I think Harris would've eventually became the player he is now. He's just getting better with age. Doesn't have anything to do with the system he's in or Lawrence Frank.

ty
12-01-2008, 06:55 PM
I agree. The way Avery handled Harris is the same way Popovich handled Parker. Hell Pop handled him worse. I think Harris would've eventually became the player he is now. He's just getting better with age. Doesn't have anything to do with the system he's in or Lawrence Frank.

Comparing Pop and Avery? In that case...the Mavs FO may have made the BIGGEST mistake ever when they fired Avery!

I'm gonna point and laugh at every ONE of you suckers when Avery wins 4+ championships like POP!

Hahahah, suckers!

FINtastic
12-01-2008, 06:58 PM
so the question remains, who was the last point guard to average more than 7.0 assists per game for the eventual nba champion?

Answer: He used to coach the little Mavericks... (one can look to my sig for the answer)

FreshJive
12-01-2008, 07:05 PM
actually he average 6.7 for the season (ie, less than 7.0)....he and Kobe in fact were their respective team leaders in assists, so in at least four out of the last many seasons the team leader in assists wasn't even the point guard.

so the question remains, who was the last point guard to average more than 7.0 assists per game for the eventual nba champion?

Well 6.7 is close enough, and Wade does play the point sometimes.

What was the point of your trivia question?

Chauncy Billups, Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Larry Bird, Isaih Thomas, Magic Johnson. All great distributors whose razzle dazzle passes translated into wins and championships.

Nash, AI, Stockton. All great distributors whose razzle dazzle passes translated into wins and might have won championships but they ran into some of the greatest teams in basketball history.

particleman
12-01-2008, 07:09 PM
at the time it seemed like a good trade. obviously DH has progressed in a way that no one saw coming. Just because you were against the trade doesn't mean you foresaw what he would become this year.

hindsight is 20/20 but it shouldn't allow you to be an arrogant prick about it.

remember when Dirk came into the league, people said at best he would be KVH. They made an educated guess based on the information they had at the time. Their prediction wasn't stupid, even though it turned out to be wrong. Does that make any sense to you?


Just because the trade now looks like an even bigger disaster than anyone could have predicted doesn't mean it wasn't obvious to many of us at the time that the trade would be a disaster.

Comparing this situation to Dirk coming into the league is silly. No one can ever know for sure what you're getting with a draft pick. As for the Devin Harris trade.. the players, picks, etc. involved were known commodities. Even if Devin Harris weren't tearing the league up this year, it was still a bad trade.

ty
12-01-2008, 07:12 PM
Even if Devin Harris weren't tearing the league up this year, it was still a bad trade.

http://www.roflemo.com/images/emo/O_RLY-EmoRLY.jpg

Dtownsfinest
12-01-2008, 07:14 PM
Comparing Pop and Avery? In that case...the Mavs FO may have made the BIGGEST mistake ever when they fired Avery!

I'm gonna point and laugh at every ONE of you suckers when Avery wins 4+ championships like POP!

Hahahah, suckers!

Well i'm not comparing the two. I'm just saying the way Avery handled Harris IMO is the way you should handle a 21 year old coming out of college. I've never seen a player get treated the way Avery treated Harris and not become a good player in this league.

DevinHarriswillstart
12-01-2008, 07:42 PM
The reality is that Harris is a top 10 player now. Whether anyone wants to accept that or not is up to them. He may or may not continue it...but right now? He is. I think that is a big deal.

We groomed a point guard for another team. That just plain sucks. Honestly, I don't like to cry over spilt milk the same as the next person. But the org. pulled that nipple, got a lot of juice out, pasteurized it, then sent it to another company for near equal milk that expires in a day or two.

Bookit
12-01-2008, 08:00 PM
Just because the trade now looks like an even bigger disaster than anyone could have predicted doesn't mean it wasn't obvious to many of us at the time that the trade would be a disaster.

Go back and read the trade thread. There were many here that called it the worst trade of all time, especially with Diop and the first round picks. You don't trade away young talent with picks for old guys on their decline. Everybody knows that. They Mavs played well almost every time Harris played big minutes. He was injured and the team struggled. What do they do? They trade Harrris. That has to be the dumbest move ever. Believe me, it was obvious.

SMC0007
12-01-2008, 08:08 PM
The reality is that Harris is a top 10 player now. Whether anyone wants to accept that or not is up to them. He may or may not continue it...but right now? He is. I think that is a big deal.

We groomed a point guard for another team. That just plain sucks. Honestly, I don't like to cry over spilt milk the same as the next person. But the org. pulled that nipple, got a lot of juice out, pasteurized it, then sent it to another company for near equal milk that expires in a day or two.


That is one special tit..how did they get Juice out of it?

So the organization is the cow, DH and Jkidd are the milk or juice, Cuban is the farmer, Avery was the goat?

Dtownsfinest
12-01-2008, 08:37 PM
Go back and read the trade thread. There were many here that called it the worst trade of all time, especially with Diop and the first round picks. You don't trade away young talent with picks for old guys on their decline. Everybody knows that. They Mavs played well almost every time Harris played big minutes. He was injured and the team struggled. What do they do? They trade Harrris. That has to be the dumbest move ever. Believe me, it was obvious.

I really couldn't believe it after the Lakers refused to trade Bynum for Kidd. I sort of thought it was a unwritten rule not to trade young for old. I wish the Lakers would've listened to Kobe and pulled that deal. Harris would still be here.

dirno2000
12-01-2008, 08:59 PM
I really couldn't believe it after the Lakers refused to trade Bynum for Kidd. I sort of thought it was a unwritten rule not to trade young for old. I wish the Lakers would've listened to Kobe and pulled that deal. Harris would still be here.

...and somebody besides the Lakers would have a chance in hell of winning the West. I believe that Odom was in that deal too as Bynum was still on his rookie contract.

foglemann
12-01-2008, 09:31 PM
Where is the Primal Scream thread.

Am I off base to say this is the Mavericks.

Kidd, Nash, and now Devin all blossomed when they leave the organization.

basketballgirl25
12-01-2008, 09:58 PM
...and somebody besides the Lakers would have a chance in hell of winning the West. I believe that Odom was in that deal too as Bynum was still on his rookie contract.

yeah Nets wanted Odom and Bynum, Nets wanting Bynum was pretty much the reason that didn't happen

basketballgirl25
12-01-2008, 10:00 PM
Where is the Primal Scream thread.

Am I off base to say this is the Mavericks.

Kidd, Nash, and now Devin all blossomed when they leave the organization.

sucks for mav fans too see, all the players that have left NJ in the past either have when Kidd was on the team owned Kidd. And the others declined some

Dtownsfinest
12-01-2008, 10:51 PM
...and somebody besides the Lakers would have a chance in hell of winning the West. I believe that Odom was in that deal too as Bynum was still on his rookie contract.

Jesus. Odom too? I forget the deal but I know the deal had to equal up to Kidd's contract so you're right. Goodness. I think Nets have to like what they ended up with though. Didn't take any money past 2010. Got Harris at a damn good contract. Two 1st round picks.......

fluid.forty.one
12-01-2008, 11:40 PM
Just because the trade now looks like an even bigger disaster than anyone could have predicted doesn't mean it wasn't obvious to many of us at the time that the trade would be a disaster.

Comparing this situation to Dirk coming into the league is silly. No one can ever know for sure what you're getting with a draft pick. As for the Devin Harris trade.. the players, picks, etc. involved were known commodities. Even if Devin Harris weren't tearing the league up this year, it was still a bad trade.

devin obviously wasn't a known commodity since he's 20x better than he was a year ago. We "thought" we knew what we had, but we really didn't.

buddha08
12-02-2008, 08:47 AM
Just because the trade now looks like an even bigger disaster than anyone could have predicted doesn't mean it wasn't obvious to many of us at the time that the trade would be a disaster.

Comparing this situation to Dirk coming into the league is silly. No one can ever know for sure what you're getting with a draft pick. As for the Devin Harris trade.. the players, picks, etc. involved were known commodities. Even if Devin Harris weren't tearing the league up this year, it was still a bad trade.

At the time of the trade I was disgusted. I wondered how Cuban and Donnie could not see what many of us did: that this trade was a bad idea for a number of reasons. Basically I knew when the trade went down the Mavs were done. While it is nice to see your predictions confirmed--meaning you know a little something about talent and the value of draft picks--it's little consolation. This sucks....

alexamenos
12-02-2008, 09:41 AM
Well 6.7 is close enough, and Wade does play the point sometimes.

What was the point of your trivia question?

Chauncy Billups, Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Larry Bird, Isaih Thomas, Magic Johnson. All great distributors whose razzle dazzle passes translated into wins and championships.

Nash, AI, Stockton. All great distributors whose razzle dazzle passes translated into wins and might have won championships but they ran into some of the greatest teams in basketball history.

6.7 is less than 7, dumbass.

It was just a curiousity -- pre-kidd, a lot of the diagnoses of the mavericks problems was that they lacked a true point guard that could get easier shots for other players. My response to this is "what NBA championship team in the last 20 years has had a true point guard?" the answer is that generally speaking nba championship haven't had pass first point guards since magic.

Chauncy Billups isn't a great passer, and he's not in the league of the other players there. Except for magic, the other players are so much better scorers than J-Kidd that the comparisons are ridiculous.

ghazi
12-02-2008, 12:44 PM
To those who have called the trade a disaster, let's let the season play out first, shall we?

Underdog
12-02-2008, 12:53 PM
To those who have called the trade a disaster, let's let the season play out first, shall we?

Why "wait and see" what a bunch of people who actually get PAID to play the sport can do when we, The Enlightened, can sit here behind our computers with a small sampling of numbers and boldly predict the future (all signs point to "whaaa-whaaa-whaaa!")


:rolleyes:

mary
12-02-2008, 01:38 PM
I don't think Devin is 20x better than he was a year ago. I thought he was pretty damn good a year ago. He's basically playing more minutes and taking on more scoring responsibility. No teammate of Dirk Nowitizki's is going to average 25 points per game.

As for the trade, I can see why they did it. It was a gamble that didn't pay off...or at least it hasn't paid off yet, and the chances that it will look pretty slim.

For my own personal entertainment, I really miss Devin Harris. I miss watching him fly down the floor with reckless abandon. I miss watching him kick the Spurs ass. I miss having his personality on this team...he seemed like a good guy. Also, he's never been accused of beating his wife....so that's a plus.

Yep, I miss Devin Harris.

FreshJive
12-02-2008, 01:43 PM
6.7 is less than 7, dumbass.

It was just a curiousity -- pre-kidd, a lot of the diagnoses of the mavericks problems was that they lacked a true point guard that could get easier shots for other players. My response to this is "what NBA championship team in the last 20 years has had a true point guard?" the answer is that generally speaking nba championship haven't had pass first point guards since magic.

Chauncy Billups isn't a great passer, and he's not in the league of the other players there. Except for magic, the other players are so much better scorers than J-Kidd that the comparisons are ridiculous.

You were trying to make a point, not setting a hard number.

I think the diagnosis was that the Mavs lacked ball movement and a distributor or quarterback. It doesn't have to be a point gaurd, but that's what they found.

Chauncy Billups is one of the most efficient passers in the game. I wasn't making a list of players that were similar in talent level. They were players that quarterback. Players that "could get easier shots for other players". We have a player that scores on the level of the other players, but we didn't have anybody who could distribute on thier level.

Underdog
12-02-2008, 01:51 PM
I think the diagnosis was that the Mavs lacked ball movement and a distributor or quarterback.

Ain't that the truth...

What short memories people around here have if they can't remember bitching about iso's over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again last season...

Blame it all on Avery if you want, but we're not talking about Devin getting double-digit assists right now...

alexamenos
12-02-2008, 02:31 PM
Ain't that the truth...

What short memories people around here have if they can't remember bitching about iso's over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again last season...

Blame it all on Avery if you want, but we're not talking about Devin getting double-digit assists right now...

Just to be clear -- I wasn't among those bitching about iso's over and over and over, I was practically alone in defending the use of iso's over and over and over. While others were insisting this team's problems late last season were all about Avery's horrible x's and o'x, I was in quite a state of disagreeance.

ISO offense is about putting the ball in your best player's hands and letting him go to work -- it's a helluva thing to do IMO. It's boring and it lacks the aesthetic stuff of a bunch of a double reverse flea flickers in football, but it's nonetheless quite a sturdy thing.....The boring fact of the matter in the NBA is that what genius coaches have done since the days of george mikan is they've given the ball to their best player--their best scorer--and said, 'go beat the other team.' The 'pass-first point guard' who 'makes his teammates better' by virtue of his impeccable passing skills is so very over-rated.

but I digress.....

For $20 million you can get a guy to throw dirk a pass where he can get a decent look, or for a few hundred grand you can get a guy to throw dirk a pass, have dirk put it on the floor twice and then get a decent look. All that 19.5 million does for you is save dirk the trouble of dribbling a couple of times. Is it worth it?

If you really dig into the numbers you'll see that last season (ie, supposedly before Harris blew up), Kidd averaged 3.5 more assists per 36 minutes then Harris, so that's 3.5 more baskets per game you get from Kidd that you don't get from Harris, right? Wrong, because it's not like someone wouldn't have taken a shot on those possessions, they'd just take the shot off the dribble--so we're really talking more like 2.0 baskets per game that you get out of kidd that you didn't get out of harris....so, plus 4 pts per game.

But there are other differences -- Harris averaged 17 pts per 36 minutes while Kidd averaged 10 pts per 36 minutes....so let's all do the math here -- we gave up 17 pts per game in order to pick up 10 pts per game plus 4 pts per game from assist....for the mathematically challenged, 17>14.

I'm not trying to argue that Harris is a better basketball player than Jason Kidd now, much less when Kidd was in his prime, just that the marginal benefit of getting a really really great passer is very small in basketball....very small....

Dirkadirkastan
12-02-2008, 02:41 PM
Yep, shoulda kept Harris. We bungled it. Check that, someone else bungled it.

Oh well, what more is there to say.

Underdog
12-02-2008, 02:49 PM
ISO offense is about putting the ball in your best player's hands and letting him go to work -- it's a helluva thing to do IMO

I guess you missed the Golden State series - we did that, Dirk got swarmed, we lost...

If you really dig into the numbers you'll see that last season (ie, supposedly before Harris blew up), Kidd averaged 3.5 more assists per 36 minutes then Harris, so that's 3.5 more baskets per game you get from Kidd that you don't get from Harris, right? Wrong, because it's not like someone wouldn't have taken a shot on those possessions, they'd just take the shot off the dribble--so we're really talking more like 2.0 baskets per game that you get out of kidd that you didn't get out of harris....so, plus 4 pts per game

4 points isn't much, is it?

But there are other differences -- Harris averaged 17 pts per 36 minutes while Kidd averaged 10 pts per 36 minutes....so let's all do the math here -- we gave up 17 pts per game in order to pick up 10 pts per game plus 4 pts per game from assist....for the mathematically challenged, 17>14.

But 3 points is a lot, isn't it?

I'm not trying to argue that Harris is a better basketball player than Jason Kidd now, much less when Kidd was in his prime, just that the marginal benefit of getting a really really great passer is very small in basketball....very small....

Kidd does more than just pass the ball:

Rebounds - Devin (3.7) // Kidd (7.3)
Steals - Devin (1.3) // Kidd (2.4)
Blocks - Devin (0.1) // Kidd (0.6)
3-Point % - Devin (31%) // Kidd (44%)

alexamenos
12-02-2008, 03:02 PM
I guess you missed the Golden State series - we did that, Dirk got swarmed, we lost...

We also did it against Memphis, San Antonio and Phoenix and made it to the NBA finals.

The thing about the kidd trade is it was such a blatant reaction to the Golden State series -- 'did you see how we got beat because we couldn't move the ball effectively and we couldn't guard the big point guard...what do we do???? Jason Kidd!!!' The problem was the next season they didn't face the Golden State Warriors, they played someone else.

The generals are always fighting the last war....

Anyway, I'm not trying to say that Harris is a better basketball player than Kidd. I'm saying that we wanted better passing out of the point guard position, and we got it. Yeah for us!

Now I'm asking the question, 'does better passing from the point guard position really mean more wins?' The answer of course is that it depends upon what you give up, and I'm saying that one doesn't have to give up much before better passing at the point guard position doesn't translate to more wins. I would say in retrospect that 3 or 4 more assists per game certainly aren't worth the ability to get to the line 3 or four times when it comes to putting games in the 'W' column.

Underdog
12-02-2008, 03:17 PM
We also did it against Memphis, San Antonio and Phoenix and made it to the NBA finals.

The thing about the kidd trade is it was such a blatant reaction to the Golden State series -- 'did you see how we got beat because we couldn't move the ball effectively and we couldn't guard the big point guard...what do we do???? Jason Kidd!!!' The problem was the next season they didn't face the Golden State Warriors, they played someone else.

The generals are always fighting the last war....

Anyway, I'm not trying to say that Harris is a better basketball player than Kidd. I'm saying that we wanted better passing out of the point guard position, and we got it. Yeah for us!

Now I'm asking the question, 'does better passing from the point guard position really mean more wins?' The answer of course is that it depends upon what you give up, and I'm saying that one doesn't have to give up much before better passing at the point guard position doesn't translate to more wins. I would say in retrospect that 3 or 4 more assists per game certainly aren't worth the ability to get to the line 3 or four times when it comes to putting games in the 'W' column.

Have you checked our team stats lately? Everyone wants to point their finger at the PG position, but our biggest problem is that NOBODY on this team can score...

Dirk, Josh, JET, and Kidd are the only double-digit scorers we have - the decline of Jerry Stackhouse has had a HUGE affect on our offense, since he was our 5th scorer the past few seasons... Hell, the next best guy we have right now is Bass at 7.0 ppg - we're in DESPERATE need of a trade (and have been since the Kidd trade - I could have sworn we were going to make a second move after that went down, but management seemed to have enough faith in Dirk's backup to make up for the lost scoring!)

I still contend that we're only one move away from being legit, but I'm not sure if we have the pieces to get it done now... I agree that the Kidd trade sucked, but "Jason Kidd, the trade" and "Jason Kidd, the player" are two very different things...

Kidd's legit - sick the mob on Donnie for getting hosed by the lowly Nets...

SMC0007
12-02-2008, 03:26 PM
agreed

alexamenos
12-02-2008, 03:32 PM
Have you checked our team stats lately? Everyone wants to point their finger at the PG position, but our biggest problem is that NOBODY on this team can score......

this is why I keep asking "does such and such skill translate to more wins?" rather than "is the new guy a better individual basketball player than the other guy?"

what this team completely lacks is someone that can put the ball on the ground and get to the hoop or to the free throw line....too bad they don't have some skinny little kid to do this, even if he wasn't the greatest passer or 3 point shooter on earth.

sometimes I frighten myself (http://www.dallas-mavs.com/vb/showpost.php?p=838545&postcount=61) --

I'm kind of seeing a monkey's paw kind of deal in all this.....

Monkey's Paw, for those who may not recall, is the story of a fellow who finds a talisman (monkey's paw) which will grant him three wishes. He makes a wish for money to pay the rent which is granted vis a vis payment on his son's accidental death. He then wishes that his son were still alive, and his son returns alive, but still horribly mangled and in tremendous pain from the the accident which caused his death. Finally, the old dude wishes the wishes hadn't come true.

So, we wished for pure point guard and we got one. We wish for the dismissal of Avery and we may get that one too. Our third wish may well be for the days when Avery was micro-managing Devin Harris.

Bookit
12-02-2008, 03:34 PM
The Mavs played very well against good teams with Devin in the lineup. Dirk complained about the iso offense and they got rid of Devin to change it. That was a horrible decision since the iso offense really only was pronounced when Devin was out of the lineup. The problem wasn't Devin, and giving him away(plus picks) for an aging NAME wasn't going to make it better. They should have fired Avery on the spot and kept the team intact.

Kidd is an absolute battler and is really fun to watch but his lack of free throw production really hurts this team. No one on this board would have believed how bad Kidd is around the basket. Since Jet and now Dirk don't get free throws, that only leaves Josh to get them and that just isn't enough.

The only aspect of the trade that has worked well is that Kidd can guard bigger players which frees up the team to play two point guards.

alexamenos
12-02-2008, 03:50 PM
Kidd is an absolute battler and is really fun to watch but his lack of free throw production really hurts this team. No one on this board would have believed how bad Kidd is around the basket. Since Jet and now Dirk don't get free throws, that only leaves Josh to get them and that just isn't enough.

Josh doesn't get to the line with quite as much regularity as Dirk. Josh isn't terrible about getting to the line, but he's nothing special at all.

Devin, on the other hand, is among the league's best at getting to the line....while kidd only gets to the line a little more often than I do.

It's a pretty dramatic swing to give up the league's best at something for someone who really gives you nothing in that same something. With respect to getting to the line, the mavs went from among the league's best when they made their run to very mediocre.

Underdog
12-02-2008, 03:54 PM
this is why I keep asking "does such and such skill translate to more wins?" rather than "is the new guy a better individual basketball player than the other guy?"

Does more assists translate into more wins? No

Does more assists, rebounds, steals, blocks and 3-pointers translate into more wins? Check back in a few months...


;)

fluid.forty.one
12-02-2008, 04:00 PM
Milkface: Dominant Destroyer!
Devin Harris Cures Cancer, Solves Crimes, Finds Lost Puppies
Mike Fisher -- DB.com


I’m not sure why we’re holding back here. SI said Devin is going to dominate the NBA for years to come and Hollinger says he has clearly established himself as the next Kevin Johnson with not only “dominance’’ but also “destruction’’? Screw Kevin Johnson. I say Magic Johnson. No, wait. … Lyndon Johnson. That’s it! Devin Harris – my old friend “Milkface’’ -- is going to impact this nation in a way comparable to that of Lyndon Johnson.
Devin Harris, the Mav-turned-Net, has inspired DB.com’s 75-Member Staff to assemble a list of his many accomplishments. For instance: Bet you didn’t know that Marlee Matlin's favorite song is Devin Harris, that Devin Harris did not "lose" his virginity, he took it to the hole and drew an And1, or that Rosa Parks refused to get out of her seat because she was saving it for Devin Harris.


More Devin Harris accomplishments:
If you have five dollars and Devin Harris has five dollars, Devin has more money than you.
There is no ctrl button on Devin's computer. Devin is always in control.
Remember al Queada? They decided to quit after watching that Suns-Nets game last night.
Contrary to popular belief, America is not a democracy, it's a Devintatorship.
When that Nets-Suns game was aired in France, the French surrendered to Devin just to be on the safe side.
Devin Harris invented the color black. In fact, he invented the entire spectrum of light. Except pink. Jason Kidd invented pink.
Devin Harris once converted a five-point play.
Little known medical fact: Devin Harris invented the Caesarean section when he crossover-dribbled his way out of his mother's womb.
Hellen Keller's favorite color is Devin Harris.
Marlee Matlin's favorite song is Devin Harris.
When J. Robert Oppenheimer said "I am become death, the destroyer Of worlds", He was not referring to the atomic bomb. He was referring to Devin Harris taking his man off the dribble.
Devin Harris is what Willis was talkin' about.
In a fight between the Federation and the Romulans, the winner would be Devin Harris.
The 11th commandment is "Thou shalt not guard Devin Harris." This commandment is rarely enforced, as it is impossible to accomplish.
They were going to release a Devin Harris edition of Clue, but the answer always turns out to be "Devin Harris. In The Library. With a Crossover Dribble."
Devin Harris did not "lose" his virginity, he took it to the hole and drew an And One
When God said, "Let there be light," Devin Harris said, "Say please."
Devin Harris can strangle a hooker with only one hand.
Champions are the breakfast of Devin Harris.
Rosa Parks refused to get out of her seat because she was saving it for Devin Harris.
A Handicap parking sign does not signify that this spot is for handicapped people. It is actually in fact a warning, that the spot belongs to Devin Harris and that you will be handicapped if you park there.
Men are okay with their wives fantasizing about Devin Harris during sex, because they are doing the same thing.
The best part of waking up is not Folgers in your cup, but knowing that Devin Harris didn't cross you over in your sleep.
Devin Harris doesn't have hair on his testicles, because hair does not grow on steel.
Devin Harris' calendar goes straight from March 31st to April 2nd; no one fools Devin Harris.

Underdog
12-02-2008, 04:06 PM
^LOL

alexamenos
12-02-2008, 04:13 PM
Sadly, the mavs played 44 games last season with Devin Harris on the roster and they've since played 44 more games....those are pretty good sample sizes....

31-13 before trade (on pace to win 58 games)
24-20 after trade (on pace to win 45 games)

The difference between 58 wins and 45 wins is the difference between a very good team and a very average team, and everything my eyes see tells me that the mavs as currently constructed are a very average team. Yes, they have bursts and bouts of tremendous play, but every average team since the dawn of many has played well in stretches.

I don't mean to say that I think things would be terribly different if they had Harris here, but the "Jason Adrian Dantly Kidd" trade pretty clearly marks the beginning of the end of a nice long run.

DirkFTW
12-02-2008, 04:16 PM
Awesome! But I'm a dork....

The 11th commandment is "Thou shalt not guard Devin Harris." This commandment is rarely enforced, as it is impossible to accomplish.

Doesn't this mean people can't help but guard Devin Harris? :p

Underdog
12-02-2008, 04:20 PM
Sadly, the mavs played 44 games last season with Devin Harris on the roster and they've since played 44 more games....those are pretty good sample sizes....

Sure, if you want to observe your data in a vacuum where Kidd joining a new team in the middle of the season with a coach who doesn't want him here, then maybe it can be considered a "good" sample size...

alexamenos
12-02-2008, 04:29 PM
Sure, if you want to observe your data in a vacuum where Kidd joining a new team in the middle of the season with a coach who doesn't want him here, then maybe it can be considered a "good" sample size...

i'm not looking at any one thing in isolation.....mostly just what I see watching them play. I don't know, maybe something will click, I just don't see anything special on this team.

Underdog
12-02-2008, 04:39 PM
i'm not looking at any one thing in isolation.....mostly just what I see watching them play. I don't know, maybe something will click, I just don't see anything special on this team.

Agreed - I've felt we needed to make a second deal for a 2-guard or low-post player ever since I first heard rumors of a Kidd-for-Devin trade...

Still waiting...

The Crippler
12-02-2008, 05:53 PM
Sadly, the mavs played 44 games last season with Devin Harris on the roster and they've since played 44 more games....those are pretty good sample sizes....

31-13 before trade (on pace to win 58 games)
24-20 after trade (on pace to win 45 games)

The difference between 58 wins and 45 wins is the difference between a very good team and a very average team, and everything my eyes see tells me that the mavs as currently constructed are a very average team. Yes, they have bursts and bouts of tremendous play, but every average team since the dawn of many has played well in stretches.

I don't mean to say that I think things would be terribly different if they had Harris here, but the "Jason Adrian Dantly Kidd" trade pretty clearly marks the beginning of the end of a nice long run.

alexamenos, I must spread rep around first before I give you anymore says the machine here...

Anyway, I logged on to do this exact post about the records before and after the raping but see that you had the same idea. Good stuff man.

fluid.forty.one
12-02-2008, 11:24 PM
DH with a team worst -21 tonight in a blowout loss to the (then) 2-12 Wizards.

basketballgirl25
12-02-2008, 11:29 PM
DH with a team worst -21 tonight in a blowout loss to the (then) 2-12 Wizards.

yeah Nets sucked tonight, but hey what are you going to do I think the more loses the early the better for the younger players to learn from mistakes. Harris had one of the better games out of the Net players though.

On other notes I hope Kidd breaks his legs and never plays again he makes me sick:mad:

fluid.forty.one
12-02-2008, 11:32 PM
Harris had one of the better games out of the Net players though.


The team sure did a lot better when he was off the court.

dirno2000
12-03-2008, 12:38 AM
Not trying to make excuses for Devin (well, maybe I am :)) but +/- isn't really that meaningful when the sample size is one game.

chumdawg
12-03-2008, 12:41 AM
Not trying to make excuses for Devin (well, maybe I am :)) but +/- isn't really that meaningful when the sample size is one game.The sample size is always one game.

alby
12-03-2008, 12:47 AM
lol.

dirno2000
12-03-2008, 01:07 AM
The sample size is always one game.

no it's not

ty
12-03-2008, 01:08 AM
On other notes I hope Kidd breaks his legs and never plays again he makes me sick:mad:

Why are you here?

fluid.forty.one
12-03-2008, 01:11 AM
Why are you here?

Cause we're her 14th favorite team!

bernardos70
12-03-2008, 02:44 AM
Can you tell me again whether she loves or hates Jason Kidd? It's Wednesday today, if that helps you answer the question.

basketballgirl25
12-03-2008, 05:59 AM
Can you tell me again whether she loves or hates Jason Kidd? It's Wednesday today, if that helps you answer the question.

I can tell you I'm really trying to like Kidd, but it is really kind of hard to after last year. I'm just trying not to be like Raptor fans and feel the same way they do about Carter because Kidd and Carter are the same they both bailed on a team, you would understand if Dirk did that to the Mavs

basketballgirl25
12-03-2008, 06:02 AM
Why are you here?

because I thought I like Kidd, but I really can't stand him anymore if Raptor fans can hate Vince Carter still after 5 years, then I can hate Kidd they did the same thing. and like I said before you would understand were I am coming from if Dirk did the same thing to the Mavs, so yuo can't really understand it all

basketballgirl25
12-03-2008, 06:07 AM
The team sure did a lot better when he was off the court.

I was just saying he had a better game then the rest of the team, I'm not saying he did have a great game, a lot were more off then he was, but like they said at the beginning of the game at lot of teams don't play as good the first game back home after a road trip, no excuses but that is what happens I've seen it with other teams also

basketballgirl25
12-03-2008, 06:24 AM
I thought I would share some things with you all if you haven't seen them

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ys-accuscoreharriskidd120208&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

and

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=ArxZnDYtKQI.K1bY04s3uI.8vLYF?slug=jy-harrismavericks120208&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

I find it funny how both teams have the same record as of right now anyway, I know things will change, but it makes me feel a whole lot better about Nets losing last night, but anyway thought you all might like to read those if you didn't already

Nowitzkizer
12-03-2008, 08:37 AM
It's interesting that the Mavericks have the same record as the Nets at 9-8. Interesting in a way that Jason Kidd coming to Dallas was supposed to make Dallas better and the Mavericks are supposed to have a better record than the rebuilding Nets. Sure, it's still early in the season and the recent 7-1 run is relieving. Drawing confidence from that 7-1 run though, is misleading, as only 3 of 8 teams that we played against had a record (at the time we played them) above .500. The Nets, in comparison, played 5 of 8 teams above .500.

If the Mavs have the same record as the Nets, it only means that Kidd is making Dallas worse and Harris is making NJ a LOT better. Using the data from that link, the Mavs traded for:
-15.1 PTS, +3.6 REB, +2.2 AST, -1 TO, -2.1 FG%, -12.6 FT%, +13.1 3P%

If the trade was made straight up (and the Nets GM said that he would have), the trade still would have been bad. I realize I am comparing individual player statistics over the player's overall impact on their respective teams, but does the 36.1 minutes per game that Kidd has on the floor to make an impact (be it by assists, rebounds, etc) really make up for the 15.1 PPG disparity?

A straight up trade for:
-15.1 PTS, +3.6 REB, +2.2 AST, -1 TO, -2.1 FG%, -12.6 FT%, +13.1 3P%
is bad.

That same trade but in addition trading away 2 first round picks, a mid-level exception, and 3 million dollars in cash?

Really bad.

Silk Smoov
12-03-2008, 08:56 AM
Why dont you guys and gals share a cell and bump booties all night. Dont nobody want to hear that mess you are talking about. Hopefully, a moderator either deletes or moves this thread. This section is about our Mavs ONLY. I could care less what the Nets does. They can fall off the face of the earth for all I care.

Nowitzkizer
12-03-2008, 09:03 AM
Sorry, I didn't mean to come off as a troll. I just wanted to highlight certain impending doom for the Mavs. I think it would be in our best interest to rebuild or at least move a key player or two around.

dude1394
12-03-2008, 09:39 AM
Interesting Analysis on devein/jkiddo. I'm not so sure I agree with the conclusion however as he's using a static analysis. Certainly Devin wouldn't be going for 47 here as he wouldn't be getting the shots. Also not so sure dirk(we didn't see it), jet/josh would be doing the same either.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AoyQ7yKmmGagvMLuad1x24o5nYcB?slug=ys-accuscoreharriskidd120208&prov=yhoo&type=lgns


AccuScore: Devin Harris vs. Jason Kidd

By Stephen Oh, AccuScore.com 10 hours, 14 minutes ago

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Buzz up!
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Print

AccuScore has simulated the current NBA season under the premise last season’s deadline deal involving Jason Kidd and Devin Harris didn’t happen in order to guage the long-term impact of the trade. Each game is simulated one play at a time and the game is replayed a minimum of 10,000 times to generate forecasted winning percentages, player statistics and a variety of game-changing scenarios. Here's AccuScore.com's “next-season” analysis of the Harris-Kidd trade.

Devin Harris has been spectacular for the surprisingly good 9-8 New Jersey Nets. Jason Kidd has been statistically good as well and the Mavs are also 9-8.

Statistical Comparison

Devin Harris has put up 25 points and 6 assists per game on nearly 49 percent shooting. Jason Kidd has been shooting very well from 3-point range and is an excellent rebounder at PG. Kidd has the edge in assists, but Harris has the slight edge in assist-to-turnover ratio.

SEASON TO DATE FG% FT% 3P% AST TO AST/TO REB PTS
Devin Harris 48.7% 81.8% 31.0% 6.4 2.1 3.0 3.7 25.3
Jason Kidd 46.6% 69.2% 44.1% 8.6 3.1 2.8 7.3 10.2

So the question is how would the Mavs perform if they can undo this trade at this point in the season?

Kidd holds his own vs. Harris

It is somewhat surprising to see that the Mavs, currently 9-8, only win an average of 1 more game per 10,000 simulations for the rest of the season with Devin Harris. Their chances of winning the division and making the playoffs are slightly higher (+3 percentage points) with Harris.

DALLAS W L DIV PLAYOFF
w/ Kidd 50 32 18% 86%
w/ Harris 51 31 21% 89%

When you factor in age, there is no question that Dallas would have been better off with Harris. But on the court this season, Kidd is holding his own. While the Mavs would be better with Harris, the difference is not as big as some might think given how good Harris has been with New Jersey for this season. The Mavs have plenty of scoring options with Dirk Nowitzki, Josh Howard and Jason Terry. Kidd is a pass-first point guard who is a superior 3-point shooter (by the numbers), which helps the Mavs win nearly as many games as they would have had they kept Harris.

The Nets need Harris and his dynamic scoring. Their projected wins drop from 43 with Harris to just 38 with Kidd. Harris is best as a primary scoring option which the Nets need more than Dallas does.

Eman
12-03-2008, 10:08 AM
Interesting that Accuscore says that the Mav's would have only one more win with Harris. Of course the stats can't take into account Kidd's passes that lead to a pass where someone has an easy score. I see so many of those on breaks. The rest of our guys have a much easier time scoring.

Curious to see how good we are when Josh gets back and Green and Wright and Williams have a little time to get better.

Zki41
12-03-2008, 10:45 AM
.500 teams that the Nets play have been different from the .500 teams we play. While I'm too lazy to look them up, I'm rather sure that the nets played the Hawks twice, and while the Hawks are unfolding to become a formidable threat, they are weaker than let's say, the Lakers.

DirkFTW
12-03-2008, 10:50 AM
and like I said before you would understand were I am coming from if Dirk did the same thing to the Mavs, so yuo can't really understand it all

That's because you weren't here when things got Nashty. We know where you're coming from but we still have trouble understanding where you're going.

Underdog
12-03-2008, 10:52 AM
because I thought I like Kidd, but I really can't stand him anymore if Raptor fans can hate Vince Carter still after 5 years, then I can hate Kidd they did the same thing. and like I said before you would understand were I am coming from if Dirk did the same thing to the Mavs, so yuo can't really understand it all

http://www.stfu.se/stfu.gif

alexamenos
12-03-2008, 10:52 AM
because I thought I like Kidd, but I really can't stand him anymore if Raptor fans can hate Vince Carter still after 5 years, then I can hate Kidd they did the same thing. and like I said before you would understand were I am coming from if Dirk did the same thing to the Mavs, so yuo can't really understand it all

You have very serious punctuation issues.

Underdog
12-03-2008, 11:21 AM
Thanks to the mods for cleaning up the board...

dmack24
12-03-2008, 11:26 AM
Kidd played Horrible again last night! I am to the point that we start Barea at pg and Jet at SG. Kidd is not producing enough to be our starting pg.

thereaper
12-03-2008, 11:30 AM
/thread

fluid.forty.one
12-03-2008, 02:15 PM
Kidd played Horrible again last night! I am to the point that we start Barea at pg and Jet at SG. Kidd is not producing enough to be our starting pg.

can we get a ban on this guy for idiocy?

You've said the same thing in like 3-4 different threads, and now its leaking over to the Around the NBA/Devin Harris thread... STFU.

basketballgirl25
12-03-2008, 02:40 PM
That's because you weren't here when things got Nashty. We know where you're coming from but we still have trouble understanding where you're going.

ok, well at least you know where I'm coming from. Just understand this, I want to try to root for Kidd and the mavs because I don't want to be like Raptor fans and boo, because I find them annoying and don't want to be like them.

fluid.forty.one
12-03-2008, 02:41 PM
ok, well at least you know where I'm coming from. Just understand this, I want to try to root for Kidd and the mavs because I don't want to be like Raptor fans and boo, because I find them annoying and don't want to be like them.

You love/hate Kidd. We get that. I'm sure your fellow NJ fans would love to talk about it on their boards.

Mavs are like your 9th favorite team. Why spend so much time here, especially when most people here don't want you to?

ty
12-03-2008, 02:47 PM
ok, well at least you know where I'm coming from. Just understand this, I want to try to root for Kidd and the mavs because I don't want to be like Raptor fans and boo, because I find them annoying and don't want to be like them.

http://gallery.wewt.net/albums/funny/boohoo.jpg

DevinHarriswillstart
12-03-2008, 03:04 PM
You love/hate Kidd. We get that. I'm sure your fellow NJ fans would love to talk about it on their boards.

Mavs are like your 9th favorite team. Why spend so much time here, especially when most people here don't want you to?

Harsh.

SMC0007
12-03-2008, 05:03 PM
Someone once said, maybe it would justify me reading her posts if she was hot. sigh....

Thespiralgoeson
12-03-2008, 11:58 PM
I'm sorry, but the more I think about it, the more it pisses me off. I really don't see how anyone can think that this was a good trade, or how anyone can think Kidd is better for us than devin would be. Really, it's indefensible. The clippers game last night made it all too obvious. Kidd just can not get into the paint. JJB's speed and ability to get to the rim in the 4th quarter was what saved it for us. Devin is twice the player Barea will ever be.

It was just a stupid trade any way you look at it. Just really really bad.

nashtymavsfan13
12-04-2008, 01:51 AM
Milkface: Dominant Destroyer!
Devin Harris Cures Cancer, Solves Crimes, Finds Lost Puppies
Mike Fisher -- DB.com


I’m not sure why we’re holding back here. SI said Devin is going to dominate the NBA for years to come and Hollinger says he has clearly established himself as the next Kevin Johnson with not only “dominance’’ but also “destruction’’? Screw Kevin Johnson. I say Magic Johnson. No, wait. … Lyndon Johnson. That’s it! Devin Harris – my old friend “Milkface’’ -- is going to impact this nation in a way comparable to that of Lyndon Johnson.
Devin Harris, the Mav-turned-Net, has inspired DB.com’s 75-Member Staff to assemble a list of his many accomplishments. For instance: Bet you didn’t know that Marlee Matlin's favorite song is Devin Harris, that Devin Harris did not "lose" his virginity, he took it to the hole and drew an And1, or that Rosa Parks refused to get out of her seat because she was saving it for Devin Harris.


More Devin Harris accomplishments:
If you have five dollars and Devin Harris has five dollars, Devin has more money than you.
There is no ctrl button on Devin's computer. Devin is always in control.
Remember al Queada? They decided to quit after watching that Suns-Nets game last night.
Contrary to popular belief, America is not a democracy, it's a Devintatorship.
When that Nets-Suns game was aired in France, the French surrendered to Devin just to be on the safe side.
Devin Harris invented the color black. In fact, he invented the entire spectrum of light. Except pink. Jason Kidd invented pink.
Devin Harris once converted a five-point play.
Little known medical fact: Devin Harris invented the Caesarean section when he crossover-dribbled his way out of his mother's womb.
Hellen Keller's favorite color is Devin Harris.
Marlee Matlin's favorite song is Devin Harris.
When J. Robert Oppenheimer said "I am become death, the destroyer Of worlds", He was not referring to the atomic bomb. He was referring to Devin Harris taking his man off the dribble.
Devin Harris is what Willis was talkin' about.
In a fight between the Federation and the Romulans, the winner would be Devin Harris.
The 11th commandment is "Thou shalt not guard Devin Harris." This commandment is rarely enforced, as it is impossible to accomplish.
They were going to release a Devin Harris edition of Clue, but the answer always turns out to be "Devin Harris. In The Library. With a Crossover Dribble."
Devin Harris did not "lose" his virginity, he took it to the hole and drew an And One
When God said, "Let there be light," Devin Harris said, "Say please."
Devin Harris can strangle a hooker with only one hand.
Champions are the breakfast of Devin Harris.
Rosa Parks refused to get out of her seat because she was saving it for Devin Harris.
A Handicap parking sign does not signify that this spot is for handicapped people. It is actually in fact a warning, that the spot belongs to Devin Harris and that you will be handicapped if you park there.
Men are okay with their wives fantasizing about Devin Harris during sex, because they are doing the same thing.
The best part of waking up is not Folgers in your cup, but knowing that Devin Harris didn't cross you over in your sleep.
Devin Harris doesn't have hair on his testicles, because hair does not grow on steel.
Devin Harris' calendar goes straight from March 31st to April 2nd; no one fools Devin Harris.

Brilliance.

Ummmmm Ok
12-04-2008, 09:23 AM
Devin Harris doesn't have hair on his testicles, because hair does not grow on steel.


that was funny!

ghazi
12-04-2008, 10:32 AM
dude1394 that was very interesting, although purely hypothetical.

So the Mavs, if we were to accept Accuscore as true, are a very very very slightly worse team with Kidd. However, when you consider Kidd is 10 years older and the 2 draft picks, that makes a bad trade. not a terrible trade as some make it out to be, but a bad trade.

But I don't mind either way. I'm under the mindset right now that if we do not win a title with Kidd we would not have won a title with Harris. The gap between the skill level of Harris and Kidd is much smaller than the gap beween the Mavs and the Celtics, Lakers, and Cavaliers.

My heart aches about the rigged Finals and the first round playoff exit, but my heart does not ache that we traded away Harris.

dmack24
12-04-2008, 10:45 AM
Here is my take on the Harris and Kidd issue.

It all depends on what you are looking for in a guard. Though in all honesty the passing and assisting PG type are a dying bread; and are less and less effective.

If I were the Celts where I had Pierce,Allen,and KG I would want a guy who could utilize their talents and get them the rock. They would not need an offensive PG. So what do they do? They get Rondo a great passer and defender to lead their team; whom is kinda in a mold of a kid. I believe Rondo was just as important to that team as anyone else and because of Rondo the big three were successfull. If they had a guard like AI or Chauncy they would not be is good because it would be a team of individuals and the offense would not be as effective; because Chauncy is thinking score first and pass second. The Celts did not need a PG to score.

The same for the Lakers. They have Kobe,Rad,Odom,Gasol. They do not need a PG to contribute points they need a guard who can help get their key scorers the rock.


Utah- Deron Williams is a great player and he makes Utah a better team; but is not because he lights it up on the score board. It is because he can find the open player and help them score. If you do not believe me look at how many guys on their team average over 10ppg.


Then you have the other spectrum.

Washington- If Antwan Jamison did not have Gilbert Arenas to help him with scoring and driving the lane that team would not have a prayer. The best example was the start of this season. Gilbert Arenas is the Washington Wizards. Washington needs a scoring pg to win and that is what they have. They would not win with the Fisher or Rondos on their teams; they do not have enough weapons for it to work.

New Orleans- Regardless of how you feel about Chris Paul he is a scoring threat. This team is nothing without him; and his scoring abilities and penetration of the lane create for David West, Peja and Tyson Chandler. Again Chris Paul is the Hornets

Detroit- When Billups played for Detroit; he made Sheed and Hamilton better players; his scoring was irreplaceable and now the Pistons will pay dearly for it while the Nuggets soar. again Billups made Detroit!


Then you have The Mavs

My theory is that Avery believed we had enough scoring threats on our team like LA and Boston, and that we needed a guard who could bring us together and utilize the scorers we had. The problem that Avery over looked is that each team listed has a SG who actually plays the SG position and other key players who can score. We simply did not have enough talent for that trade for Kidd to work. It is not Kidds fault we are losing; it is just that he is not fit for the type of team that we are. It does not mean that he could not be; if we added some key ingredients. I.e

Dirk- Gasol and KG are just as good at his position if not better
Jhow- Pierce is just as good if not better and Lamar Odom is a lil less than Josh but it is not a big drop.
Dampier- Bynum is head over heals better than Damp and the same could be said of Perkins
Jet- Not a true SG but even as a sg Allen and Kobe are better at their respective positions than Jet
Bass- was our biggest big man coming off here are the other teams!
Rad- Head over heals better than Bass and can shoot and kill you from anywhere on the court.

Celts- Played Small Ball and Mixed it up effectively with Posey.

Then you had the bench guards and Vujicic was head over heals better than what we had but House was a wash.

I just showed you that we did not have key scoring players to swing a trade like that and make it work. This is why we still struggle. Unless we get a guy at the pg position that can drive effectively look for similar results to the ones we are currently having.

fluid.forty.one
12-04-2008, 11:24 AM
Dirk- Gasol and KG are just as good at his position if not better


moron

mary
12-04-2008, 11:44 AM
Dirk- Gasol and KG are just as good at his position if not betterOne of those you can make a case for.

The other one is not even close.

dalmations202
12-04-2008, 11:54 AM
Dirk- Gasol and KG are just as good at his position if not better


I'm not going to argue the rest of it because opinions are opinions.
This one line is way off though.

Gasol and KG neither have put teams on their backs and made it out of the first round (at least not more than once). Last years KG team was Pierce and Allens.
Neither have the efficient range of Dirk.

Kg plays better D, Gasol has more inside bulk. Neither is as good an offensive player as Dirk.

You really hit/miss it with Kidd as well. Kidd didn't fit the Spurs -- Tony Parker role as well as Devin Harris does --- which is exactly what Avery was trying to do. Dirk didn't fit the Tim Duncan role as well either, since Duncan is mainly an inside player and Dirk and outside -- so Avery decides to try and make Dirk and inside player.

That doesn't make Kidd better or worse than Harris, just different.

Now the Mavs with Carlisle are running more -- new motion offense, which gets met with a zone quite often. Kidd can initiate fine now, with this new offense -- just give them time to learn it efficiently. Yes, they do need to make a small change or two though to get back to elite level.

Right now, they can run with any team, when they go small. They can't match up with conventional teams though in a half court set though. They do not have the frontcourt to do this because Damp/Diop have lesser offensive skills, Dirk will be doubled, and Dallas doesn't have another Big that can score inside. Dallas tries to use Bass to get these "easy" buckets, but he really isn't an inside threat due to his height.

The other way to get the "easy" buckets is to continually slash, but JHo doesn't do that much anymore-- he wants to go 1-1 because Avery put him in the Ginobili role. Iso's will work against many teams, but not really good defensive ones. This is where Wright actually has a role, because he plays good D, and slashes alot. His jumper is just good enough to keep teams honest.

While Avery was here Harris played Parker, JHo played Ginobili, and Dirk played TD. Terry played the shooter role that Fin and Barry played. Avery basically said that Damp/Diop were better than anything SA would put on the floor defensively at least. What kept them from dominating was that they didn't have that Bruce Bowen type defender, and that Dirk wasn't as good an inside player as Tim Duncan. They did get awfully close though, and barring the REF fest in the finals -- should have won a championship.

Right now though, Carlisle is trying to change the Mavs to a different style team. Some of the parts aren't fitting real well though. Stack whose game is still ISO oriented, is not a fit in a motion offense because he is too old and can't cut/lift anymore. Josh is having some issues because of it -- because he has worked so hard in being able to take guys off the dribble, instead of passing/slashing. Terry is flourishing because he is cutting and shooting -- his strengths. Dirk is adjusting as always to what is needed each game. Kidd is distributing and defending.

This team really needs a Kaman, or Camby, or Chandler, or Okafor, or JO, or Rasheed, or Bynum, etc who can force double teams down low, play good defense, and keep the double teams at a minimum for Dirk, IF they want to be elite.

Either that or get a Small forward who can score inside, but defend the 3 which Dirk can't -- without giving up the talent they have. Ex: Kirilenko, Wallace, etc.

If JHo is going to be a jump shooter, and an Iso guy --- he needs to move to SG, IMO. He needs to focus on defense, and be utilized to his strength. Terry is utilizing his strength right now -- off pick shooter. Kidd is using his strength. Dirk is not comfortable in his role, as it is changing game to game whether he is an ISO guy, a come off pick shooter, a back to the basket get doubled Tim Duncan type player, or a distributor. It is why his shot is off, but if he gets it by the end of the year -- watch out because he will be able to dominate in any style then.

They do not have that inside easy bucket threat though. If they did -- they would be truly elite. They just need that Robert Parrish type center and they could be nasty good.

Personally, if Detroit is willing to blow it up, I'd see if Rasheed were available. That would add the attitude needed to possibly get this team over the hump. I just don't think you could get him for what Dallas would want to offer.

dmack24
12-04-2008, 11:59 AM
moron

Garnett 16.5 PPG 1.1 SPG 1.4 BPG 13rpg

Gasol 17.4 ppg .94 Bpg 9.2 RPG .3 SPG

Nowitzki 24 ppg .8 steals and blocks per game. 8.9 rpg

The stats are so close it does not make a difference; and the other players have other scorers that they rely on more than themselves. Dirk is our number one option and you could argue that Garnett and Gasol are Option number two; and both produce close to dirk.

You are right Stats be Damned!

fluid.forty.one
12-04-2008, 12:03 PM
Garnett 16.5 PPG 1.1 SPG 1.4 BPG 13rpg

Gasol 17.4 ppg .94 Bpg 9.2 RPG .3 SPG

Nowitzki 24 ppg .8 steals and blocks per game. 8.9 rpg

The stats are so close it does not make a difference; and the other players have other scorers that they rely on more than themselves. Dirk is our number one option and you could argue that Garnett and Gasol are Option number two; and both produce close to dirk.

You are right Stats be Damned!

um

the stats are so close? The difference between their PPG and Dirks is the same as Kidds and theirs. Around 7. Couple rebounds and a block doesn't mean anything -- if they did, you wouldn't bash on Kidd so much.

Kidd is obviously as good and as important as Gasol and KG. Thank god we have him.

edit: lol your post unintentionally gives Kidd so much props. if 7 points doesn't mean anything compared to a couple rebounds and blocks, Kidd is the freaking man.

mary
12-04-2008, 12:05 PM
Garnett 16.5 PPG 1.1 SPG 1.4 BPG 13rpg

Gasol 17.4 ppg .94 Bpg 9.2 RPG .3 SPG

Nowitzki 24 ppg .8 steals and blocks per game. 8.9 rpg Dude, fantasy basketball does not equal real basketball. And those scoring stats ARE NOT CLOSE.

Basic math skills be damned!

dalmations202
12-04-2008, 12:08 PM
Garnett 16.5 PPG 1.1 SPG 1.4 BPG 13rpg

Gasol 17.4 ppg .94 Bpg 9.2 RPG .3 SPG

Nowitzki 24 ppg .8 steals and blocks per game. 8.9 rpg

The stats are so close it does not make a difference; and the other players have other scorers that they rely on more than themselves. Dirk is our number one option and you could argue that Garnett and Gasol are Option number two; and both produce close to dirk.

You are right Stats be Damned!

Yes, but since you start your defense with taking out the number one player -- Gasol and KG don't get game planned against near as much as Dirk either. They have it easier since they have other stars that the team has to worry about scoring.

That is what makes Dirk the better player. He is the #1 and still gets it done. KG and Gasol were the number ones in Minn and Memphis and neither could get it done consistently.

Tokey41
12-04-2008, 04:45 PM
Garnett could probably score as much as Dirk, it's just that he doesn't have to... he has Pierce, Allen, and Rondo to fall back on.

Our team needs Dirk more, we can't rely on Josh or Kidd to carry the team... ever.

Gasol on the other hand... what the hell are you thinking?

dmack24
12-04-2008, 05:02 PM
Garnett could probably score as much as Dirk, it's just that he doesn't have to... he has Pierce, Allen, and Rondo to fall back on.

Our team needs Dirk more, we can't rely on Josh or Kidd to carry the team... ever.

Gasol on the other hand... what the hell are you thinking?

I knew I would get the Gasol thing; but he is putting almost as much as dirk and has more rebounds and blocks a game than dirk; and he could even be considered the third option pending on whether Odom is hot or not. The fact is that we need more production from Dirk; if Dirk does not produce our teams chance of winning goes down by huge proportions. If Gasol or Garnett have an off game its ok because they have backup. In past years we had that luxury; but this year we do not. We need scorers and penetrators to win us games; and kidd lost that aspect of the game. Barrea put on a clinic in the 4th quarter on how to effectively drive and open up for your team mates; and that is what Harris is good at. The Clippers game showed us how desperately we need scorers in the front court. Kidd was great at that in his prime; but horrible at it of late. I find it Ironic that the nets struggled all year last year with R Jefferson and Carter; and now they have Harris and they are tremendously better than last year; is it ironic? Then we get Kidd and we begin to struggle ourselves. I just dont understand how people drink this Kool-aid and believe everything to be alright. We gave up two first rounders and a decent pg for an old broken down slowly declining Jason Kidd!

dmack24
12-04-2008, 05:07 PM
Dude, fantasy basketball does not equal real basketball. And those scoring stats ARE NOT CLOSE.

Basic math skills be damned!

Give Dirk ;Kobe, Odom, and Rad and see if his production goes up or down. Id bet you money his numbers would look like Gasols.

We are very one dimensional- you shut down Dirk you win! The last two years in the playoffs painfully showed us that Dirk cannot do it alone anymore and clearly needs help in the front court to take tension off of him; whether it be a PG or Sg. I love Jet but he is not built to play the 2 guard position. That is why he is our six man coming off the bench.
Our team is like a puzzle and we have yet to find that missing piece. I believe personally it is two pieces. A Center who can actually rebound, and a SG who is above 6-4 who can score from all areas of the court. My Ideal pickups would be Jason Richardson and Ben Wallace. Ben even though old can still rebound and Richardson is a scoring threat wherever he goes. If you run Kidd with those kind of players the difference in our team would be night and day.

AxdemxO
12-04-2008, 05:30 PM
WoW I cant believe people are still on this KG vs Dirk thing. They mite have been close at one point, but it is simple now that KG has won a title (dont give me all the crap about who he won it with) KG is better. Maybe not by much...but hes always been a better overall player and with the title he ahead of Dirk. AS for Gasol...Dirk has been better ...and if he ever again plays like alil girl (like he did in the beginning of the season) then Gasol mite overtake him, but I dont see that happening.

KG
Dirk
Gasol

Dirkadirkastan
12-04-2008, 07:42 PM
Yep, this one year outweighs Dirk's eight straight years of taking mediocre teams through the playoffs and Garnett wallowing around at the bottom of basketball sucktitude.

mary
12-04-2008, 10:01 PM
I remember one year some fans thought Peja had surpassed Dirk.

Those people were idiots too.

basketballgirl25
12-04-2008, 10:50 PM
I've always found Garnett a better player then Dirk, I don't know he just seems more hardcore then Dirk and a better player then Dirk

Gasol I wouldn't say is better then Dirk or Dirk is better then him, I think they are both about the same right now, both are great players

alby
12-04-2008, 11:28 PM
^ girl25

please remove basketball from your name

AxdemxO
12-05-2008, 12:08 AM
Yep, this one year outweighs Dirk's eight straight years of taking mediocre teams through the playoffs and Garnett wallowing around at the bottom of basketball sucktitude.

Blaahhh Blaahh Blaaah Dirks the only player ever to take a"mediocre" team thru the playoffs. Finley, Nash, Jamison, NVE, were all around and you can throw tht out there all you want. Was Sprewell and Cassell better then Finley and Nash...IMO NO.

99% of people that are honest and know anything about basketball will tell you that KG is better then Dirk and that Dirk for the most part is better then Gasol

Dirkadirkastan
12-05-2008, 12:26 AM
Blaahhh Blaahh Blaaah Dirks the only player ever to take a"mediocre" team thru the playoffs. Finley, Nash, Jamison, NVE, were all around and you can throw tht out there all you want. Was Sprewell and Cassell better then Finley and Nash...IMO NO.

Garnett has never taken a mediocre team through the playoffs.

99% of people that are honest and know anything about basketball will tell you that KG is better then Dirk

And their ignorant opinions usually sound something like this:
I've always found Garnett a better player then Dirk, I don't know he just seems more hardcore then Dirk and a better player then Dirk

chumdawg
12-05-2008, 12:35 AM
It's been close to ten years since Dirk was on a mediocre NBA team. Not sure what you guys are talking about.

AxdemxO
12-05-2008, 01:01 AM
Garnett has never taken a mediocre team through the playoffs.



And their ignorant opinions usually sound something like this:

Give me a reason why Dirk is better?? Before it was always ohh Dirk is better becuz he took his team further. Because its Obvious that Garnett is as good as or better in every part of the game. maybe you can gove Dirk some on offense because hes a better shooter. But now Garnett has won a title and guess what Dirk hasnt, soo you can live in the past all you want but KG is got something that Dirk doesnt and hes better, If Dirk gets that title then they will be there again.

AxdemxO
12-05-2008, 01:03 AM
Dont get me wrong, I am not saying its night and day type of thing, its not a huge difference, but KG is better

fluid.forty.one
12-05-2008, 01:07 AM
Dont get me wrong, I am not saying its night and day type of thing, its not a huge difference, but KG is better

Your stance on this does not surprise me one bit.

AxdemxO
12-05-2008, 01:15 AM
Your stance on this does not surprise me one bit.

it shouldn't because althou I love Dirk, I can say the truth.

AxdemxO
12-05-2008, 01:18 AM
Bring bak tht old thread Dirk vs KG and lets see what we all thought bak then.

according to you guys Dirk has never had a good team around him, even when Nash and Fin were here

alby
12-05-2008, 01:33 AM
KG is an overrated superstar, similar to Favre.

ty
12-05-2008, 02:33 AM
but it is simple now that KG has won a title (dont give me all the crap about who he won it with)

How is that crap? You don't think that Dirk would have won a title by now with Pierce and Allen?

KG won a title the year he gets put with two other legit all-stars. Don't try to hide the fact that that happened.

KG by himself hasn't done sh*t. Look for yourself at his playoff record before Boston.

It's not crap. It matters.

Dirkadirkastan
12-05-2008, 03:59 AM
It's been close to ten years since Dirk was on a mediocre NBA team. Not sure what you guys are talking about.

Dirk is the reason this hasn't been a mediocre team.

KG is also the reason Minnesota didn't absolutely suck big hairy balls this entire decade... oh wait.

basketballgirl25
12-05-2008, 04:57 AM
KG is an overrated superstar, similar to Favre.

yeah Garnett is overrated, but so is Dirk

dmack24
12-05-2008, 09:08 AM
I remember one year some fans thought Peja had surpassed Dirk.

Those people were idiots too.

Peja and Dirk do not even play the same position

dmack24
12-05-2008, 09:10 AM
Yep, this one year outweighs Dirk's eight straight years of taking mediocre teams through the playoffs and Garnett wallowing around at the bottom of basketball sucktitude.


How have we had Mediocre teams; we have had great teams in the past.


How is Jamison,Stack, Walker, Dirk, Nash and Nicky V in their prime a mediocre talented team?

dmack24
12-05-2008, 09:14 AM
Bring bak tht old thread Dirk vs KG and lets see what we all thought bak then.

according to you guys Dirk has never had a good team around him, even when Nash and Fin were here

People are homers; but God bless them because Dallas Mavs are the best fans; but im gonna side with KG. Dirk Had his chance with a ton of great talent and could not do it

Jamison,Stack, Nicky V, Nash,Walker, Finley; and himself. A team with that kind of talent should have won every game.

dmack24
12-05-2008, 09:21 AM
How is that crap? You don't think that Dirk would have won a title by now with Pierce and Allen?

KG won a title the year he gets put with two other legit all-stars. Don't try to hide the fact that that happened.

KG by himself hasn't done sh*t. Look for yourself at his playoff record before Boston.

It's not crap. It matters.

and Finley,Nash,Jamison,Stack, Nicky V, And Walker in their prime on the mavs were not All Star worthy?

I remember at least two years within the last ten that Garnett had no one except Wally Scerbiak on his team and he took them to the playoffs. Dirk has always had great talent around him and could not capitalize; then when Garnett gets half way decent talent he wins a championship. There is not even a comparison right now. Though you could argue that he may have a slight edge over Gasol at the moment but it is not enough to stand out just yet.

mary
12-05-2008, 10:25 AM
Peja and Dirk do not even play the same position



I think you need some reading glasses.....never said they did.

mary
12-05-2008, 10:26 AM
People are homers; but God bless them because Dallas Mavs are the best fans; but im gonna side with KG. Dirk Had his chance with a ton of great talent and could not do it

Jamison,Stack, Nicky V, Nash,Walker, Finley; and himself. A team with that kind of talent should have won every game.


That's funny....those five people were never on a roster together. Have you ever actually followed the team?

And there is no such thing has a basketball team that "should win every game". It doesn't exist. Period.

dmack24
12-05-2008, 10:32 AM
That's funny....those five people were never on a roster together.

im listing talent dirk had that were all stars


Never on the same team?


Nash,Dirk, Nicky V, Finley, Lafrentz, Jamison, and Walker were all on the same team at one time. They should have won with that talent.

mary
12-05-2008, 10:34 AM
Never on the same team?That's right. These people "Jamison,Stack, Nicky V, Nash,Walker, Finley;" were never on the same team.

It didn't happen. So they were never "A team with that kind of talent". They were never "a team".

mary
12-05-2008, 10:38 AM
Nash,Dirk, Nicky V, Finley, Lafrentz, Jamison, and Walker were all on the same team at one time. They should have won with that talent.
No, they weren't on the same team either.

You want to give it another shot?

I hear the third time is a "charm".

alby
12-05-2008, 10:50 AM
People who think KG is better than Dirk are those who don't really watch basketball. They watch their favorite teams play and maybe catch a couple national televised game once or twice a week. They get everything else from ESPN or from what they read. Let's face it, when it comes to sports, on a purity level, the average American really does not know all that much.

I consider dmack24, at best, average.

Gus
12-05-2008, 10:59 AM
Ummmm, they traded Van Exel for Jamison and LaFrentz for Walker. Did LaFrentz ever make an All Star team? Or Jamison? I know Walker did in a VERY weak Eastern conference.

Dirk took a team to the Finals. He was the only all star from that team as well that year. Garnett didn't even get out of the first round in the West except for the year he had Cassell and Spreewell.


im listing talent dirk had that were all stars


Never on the same team?


Nash,Dirk, Nicky V, Finley, Lafrentz, Jamison, and Walker were all on the same team at one time. They should have won with that talent.

dmack24
12-05-2008, 11:05 AM
Ummmm, they traded Van Exel for Jamison and LaFrentz for Walker. Did LaFrentz ever make an All Star team? Or Jamison? I know Walker did in a VERY weak Eastern conference.

Dirk took a team to the Finals. He was the only all star from that team as well that year. Garnett didn't even get out of the first round in the West except for the year he had Cassell and Spreewell.

But even Cassell and Sprewell are not as good as Jamison, Nash, Finley,Walker and Dirk.

We went to the Finals with a good lineup and everyone believed we had the deeper team so that is a buch of bs. Our Bench was supperior to Miamis.

I guess Jet and Jhow and Devin are no bodies!

ty
12-05-2008, 11:15 AM
But even Cassell and Sprewell are not as good as Jamison, Nash, Finley,Walker and Dirk.

We went to the Finals with a good lineup and everyone believed we had the deeper team so that is a buch of bs. Our Bench was supperior to Miamis.

I guess Jet and Jhow and Devin are no bodies!

Yes, we did go to the finals and it was a bunch of BS. If you were a Mavs fan, you would know that.

(and yes I'm calling out your Mavs manhood)

ty
12-05-2008, 11:17 AM
yeah Garnett is overrated, but so is Dirk

GOSH, you are like Horse's evil twin.

Underdog
12-05-2008, 11:23 AM
But even Cassell and Sprewell are not as good as Jamison, Nash, Finley,Walker and Dirk.

We went to the Finals with a good lineup and everyone believed we had the deeper team so that is a buch of bs. Our Bench was supperior to Miamis.

I guess Jet and Jhow and Devin are no bodies!

JET, Josh, and Devin are all quality players, but NONE of them were voted into the All-Star game (Josh got in as an alternate because of injuries...)

Kevin Garnett isn't even the best guy on his team - how's that for a "supporting cast"???

dirno2000
12-05-2008, 01:29 PM
So we've covered Harris vs. Kidd and we're now working on Dirk vs. KG. All we need now is Nash vs. Terry/Damp and we'll have the DM.com trifecta.

alby
12-05-2008, 04:40 PM
Kidd + Kidd expiring > Harris
Dirk > KG
Nash > Terry/Damp

basketballgirl25
12-05-2008, 05:23 PM
GOSH, you are like Horse's evil twin.

hey I'm just speaking the turth someone said Garnett is overrated, and I agree but Dirk is overrated also

ty
12-05-2008, 05:29 PM
hey I'm just speaking the turth someone said Garnett is overrated, and I agree but Dirk is overrated also

How is Dirk overrated?

He rarely gets credit for the good things he does, and most often gets blame for the bad things that he is not responsible for.

How is he overrated?

monty55555
12-05-2008, 05:48 PM
Despite naysayers, Mavs are happy to have veteran Kidd in lineup


DALLAS — Go ahead, drool over dreams of Devin Harris still wearing a Mavs’ uniform. Curse the day that Mark Cuban and Donnie Nelson — and yes, Avery Johnson, too, despite what he might be saying now — made that trade for Jason Kidd last year.

Harris’ eruption into an All-Star caliber player in New Jersey this season has made all that regret downright fashionable and I’d be the last one to try to dissuade you from wallowing in all that miserable angst.

It was a bad trade because it didn’t do what it was intended to do: carry the Mavs to another NBA championship run in 2007-08. It was bad because Harris will still be cutting and slashing to the basket when Kidd is in a rocking chair somewhere, watching on TV.

He’s just not there yet and that’s still the joker in this deal, because as well as Harris is playing, Kidd is also having himself a nice little season.

He’ll be judged, though, not on any individual stats, not on his scoring average, not on his still surprising ability to rebound and not even on his uncanny ability to dish out assists, where he ranks fourth in the NBA this season with 8.5 per game.

No, Kidd will be judged on whether he carries the Mavs into the playoffs and beyond, because that was what he was brought back here to do.

On a night when Dirk Nowitzki shot the lights out at the AAC with 39 points and the Josh Howard-less Mavs drummed their old rivals, the Phoenix Suns 112-97, Kidd quietly and efficiently went about his job of setting the table for Nowitzki, Jason Terry (19 points), J.J. Barea (18 points) and the rest of the Mavs.

As much as he might be unappreciated by those gnashing their teeth over the loss of Harris, Kidd has been everything that Mavs coach Rick Carlisle expected.

"And more. And more," Carlisle said, repeating himself for emphasis. "His aptitude for the game, his competitive spirit, his motor, which is just unbelievable, they’re all things I’ve marveled at from afar for a long time, but to see it first-hand and experience what he’s been able to do is remarkable."

Whether Harris would be doing for the Mavs what he’s now accomplishing for the Nets is at best debatable. My guess is, no, which doesn’t mean he wouldn’t be a valuable asset here. It’s just that the Mavs wouldn’t have suggested to Nowitzki that he should plant himself in a corner to clear the way for Harris to do his thing.

No, Harris needed to leave Dallas — and especially the iron hand of Johnson — to develop into the player he is becoming in New Jersey.

Kidd, meanwhile, continues to do what he has always done. He has become the Mavs’ unquestioned floor leader.

"He just does his thing," Carlisle said. "He prepares, he works, he does it by example and he helps give guys confidence on the floor."

Despite Barea’s emergence as a force in the Mavs’ last two games, it’s probably a little too soon to call Kidd Dallas’ "other point guard." The young and blossoming Barea has become a better player by simply having a chance to see Kidd up close and personal on a nightly basis. Lately, he’s even been getting the chance to play alongside him.

"Without even talking, he gets everyone involved," Barea said. "He sees things on the floor that nobody else sees.

"He’s always in the right spot at the right time, always chasing the ball."

It’s easy to look at the Mavs’ record (27-25 including the playoffs) since Kidd arrived Feb. 18 and declare him a failure here. But he joined a team that was burned out and tired last season and one that has been adjusting to a new coach and new system this season.

Still, that alibi only goes so far, as even Carlisle understands.

"That’s kind of a crutch to say that. I’m just not into that," Carlisle said. "I think we’re at the point where we shouldn’t be talking about an adjustment period."

Thursday night’s comfortable victory was exactly what the Mavs have been needing, a win against a quality team, even though the Suns are struggling with a new system of their own.

It was the Mavs’ eighth win in their last nine games, their third in a row and moved them past the Suns and into seventh place in the Western Conference standings.

Slowly but surely, the Mavs, even without Howard, seem to be shaking off their rough start and finding their legs. Give Kidd a large share of the credit for that.

"He’s more comfortable in the system that we have now," Terry noted. "Coaches give him freedom and players have adjusted to his style of playing. We know if we get out and run the floor, he’s going to get us the ball.

"He’s the best to ever do it [finding the open man]. Him, John Stockton and Steve Nash are the three I think about.

"Not dissing Magic Johnson, but these are guys who make their teammates better. They play the game so unselfishly, you can’t help but want them to be on your team."

What’s done is done. Kidd is here, for better or for worse, and from the head coach to the players in the locker room, there’s no looking back. Maybe it’s time to stop gnashing those teeth and follow their example.

http://www.star-telegram.com/287/story/1076269.html

basketballgirl25
12-05-2008, 07:48 PM
How is Dirk overrated?

He rarely gets credit for the good things he does, and most often gets blame for the bad things that he is not responsible for.

How is he overrated?

I just find him overrated, well maybe he isn't overrated but all Dirk fans I know complain about him not getting calls. I mean get over it if he doesn't get a call he doesn't get a call. He is good most Dirk fans just make me hate him and find him overrated along with a lot of other players. Now as for the blame he shouldn't get the blame the whole team meaning Dirk and anyone is the past should get blame for not getting things done, if he has a bad game for sure he should deff get blamed though

Underdog
12-05-2008, 08:21 PM
I just find him overrated, well maybe he isn't overrated but all Dirk fans I know complain about him not getting calls. I mean get over it if he doesn't get a call he doesn't get a call. He is good most Dirk fans just make me hate him and find him overrated along with a lot of other players. Now as for the blame he shouldn't get the blame the whole team meaning Dirk and anyone is the past should get blame for not getting things done, if he has a bad game for sure he should deff get blamed though

You're a bitch...






(seriously...)

Thespiralgoeson
12-05-2008, 09:06 PM
I just find him overrated, well maybe he isn't overrated but all Dirk fans I know complain about him not getting calls. I mean get over it if he doesn't get a call he doesn't get a call. He is good most Dirk fans just make me hate him and find him overrated along with a lot of other players. Now as for the blame he shouldn't get the blame the whole team meaning Dirk and anyone is the past should get blame for not getting things done, if he has a bad game for sure he should deff get blamed though

Piss off, troll.

mary
12-05-2008, 09:34 PM
Take it to PM's. I'm tired of reading this crap in every thread.

The Crippler
12-05-2008, 09:34 PM
I said STOP.

I meant it.

Mary

fluid.forty.one
12-05-2008, 10:51 PM
DH is #8 on the race to the mvp rankings :(

Burn this City
12-06-2008, 02:34 AM
You guys are such homers...

basketballgirl25
12-06-2008, 06:28 AM
DH is #8 on the race to the mvp rankings :(

why would you frown about that? it's good for him

Nowitzkizer
12-06-2008, 06:55 AM
DH is #8 on the race to the mvp rankings :(

Realistically, he won't win the MVP. To win the MVP, the candidate has to be on a top 5 team which the Nets aren't. I'm happy for him, regardless. Going from a third option puppet of a point guard to a top 10 scorer, top MIP candidate, and #8 MVP candidate is an accomplishment, especially if he stays in the MVP race throughout the season. I don't see that happening though.

If he does prove me wrong and win the MVP, then I might :( a little inside.

twelli
12-06-2008, 07:00 AM
I think Dirk and KG are pretty much equal in terms of overall talent, dedication to the game and success. Put Dirk on the Minnesota teams of the past, and I doubt he would have achieved much more than KG, same goes for KG in Dallas.

Would be all so different if Dirk had made those free throws against Miami. Winning it all makes such a great difference when talking about the greatness of a player.

Gasol? G I V E M E A B R E A K...

basketballgirl25
12-06-2008, 09:39 AM
Realistically, he won't win the MVP. To win the MVP, the candidate has to be on a top 5 team which the Nets aren't. I'm happy for him, regardless. Going from a third option puppet of a point guard to a top 10 scorer, top MIP candidate, and #8 MVP candidate is an accomplishment, especially if he stays in the MVP race throughout the season. I don't see that happening though.

If he does prove me wrong and win the MVP, then I might :( a little inside.

if he wins mvp, he will shock me. Like you said to win mvp the team has to at least be in the top 5. But this is pretty good that he is actually talked about right , since Nets are never talked about much, it's always Knicks

basketballgirl25
12-07-2008, 06:00 AM
so since this is a Devin Harris thread I'll post it here, only 12 more days till Mavericks come play the Nets, hopefully mavs win all there game till then and coming in thinking easy win, so Nets win like my dream last night, hopefully this dream is right like half my other dreams have been

ghazi
12-07-2008, 08:18 AM
I didn't watch KG in his prime, too young then, so I can't say for sure whether KG 6-7 years ago was better than Dirk 6-7 years ago. Based on what I see statistically though, Dirk has been better than KG for 3-4 years now.

KG is a second fiddle on his team who gets to the line less than 3 times a game. I swear everytime I tune into a Celtics game I get a feel that KG has no offensive imprint whatsoever. He's just a jump shooter, and doesn't have much back to the basket game. I would go as far as to say Rondo is more valuable to the Celtics offensive scheme w/ his penetration than Garnett is with his jump shooting, and I don't feel stupid for saying it.

On that Celtics team, there are TWO players you would rather take the last shot than KG (Allen, Pierce). I think that says a lot about how overrated this guy is.

Also, KG's disappearing act in 4th quarters makes him one of the most overrated players in the game. He doesn't have a clutch bone in his body.

Of course Dirk is the straw that stirs the Mavs offensive drink... gets to the line 6-7 times a game. Has 3-PT range... can take over stretches of games with his offense. Has an arsenal of moves, etc. Is clutch no matter what anybody says, proven through watching the Mavs and proven through statistics. This FAR FAR FAR outweights KG's superior defense IMO.

Just a thought on that.

basketballgirl25
12-07-2008, 07:57 PM
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/bucks/35629644.html
that's a awesome article and I love what Jefferson has to say about Harris

AxdemxO
12-07-2008, 08:42 PM
so since this is a Devin Harris thread I'll post it here, only 12 more days till Mavericks come play the Nets, hopefully mavs win all there game till then and coming in thinking easy win, so Nets win like my dream last night, hopefully this dream is right like half my other dreams have been


??? soo you have dreams about who wins basketball games..hmmmm

basketballgirl25
12-07-2008, 09:48 PM
??? soo you have dreams about who wins basketball games..hmmmm

haha, yeah sometimes. I mostly have dreams about being on a cruise ship, but sometimes I have dreams about who wins basketball games. Once I had a dream someone came on shot up the izod center, this was in 2007 when Kidd was still on the team, when the played raptors in the playoffs in the first round needless to say Kidd died is that along with all the Nets, but werid dreams come a lot

Tokey41
12-07-2008, 10:39 PM
... I hate you for so many reasons, there are a lot of morons on this board but you take the cake (sorry horse)

Anyway, I guess we'll find out what kind of player Devin truly is when we play against him. If he goes out and tries to net 50 on us (either successfully or unsuccessfully) we'll know he has that vengence mindset. If he doesn't... well then, i'll actually be more disappointed in trading him. If that fire isn't coming from being traded and proving us wrong then it must just be his naturally developing skills. In theory this should still be an easy win for us, they may still be overacheiving but we're actually clicking now.

basketballgirl25
12-07-2008, 11:15 PM
... I hate you for so many reasons, there are a lot of morons on this board but you take the cake (sorry horse)

Anyway, I guess we'll find out what kind of player Devin truly is when we play against him. If he goes out and tries to net 50 on us (either successfully or unsuccessfully) we'll know he has that vengence mindset. If he doesn't... well then, i'll actually be more disappointed in trading him. If that fire isn't coming from being traded and proving us wrong then it must just be his naturally developing skills. In theory this should still be an easy win for us, they may still be overacheiving but we're actually clicking now.

I think it will actually be pretty good match up, not between the teams just between Kidd and Harris, I think they will both want to try to prove something. Kidd that the mavs made the right trade and Harris that the mavs were dumb enough to trade him. Hopefully it will be a great game and Carter will play amazing, I think he might want to prove something also, that he can lead a team, proving people wrong this year so far and is pretty damn good. Good thing for the Nets is it is a back-to-back and they have been pretty good for back-to-back games this year. But hey if the Nets can't beat them I would just be happy for Harris to own Kidd because that would still mean a steal for the Nets:D

dude1394
12-07-2008, 11:25 PM
Nets suck...and the nets fans suck.

Tokey41
12-07-2008, 11:28 PM
You don't need any more evidence that this was a steal for the Nets. The only thing I hate about that team is Vince Carter, and that roots back to his days as a Raptor. The man is a quitter and honestly I think the only reason he hasn't had an "injury" this season is because the Nets have been surprisingly good. When you hit a rough stretch he'll go down, and when the team gets back on track he'll make a miraculous recovery to be part of that winning.

Too bad that's the type of mentoring your young talent has over there.

alby
12-08-2008, 03:43 AM
But, as point guard, Devin should try to be the one leading.

basketballgirl25
12-08-2008, 05:28 AM
The man is a quitter

if your calling Vince Carter a quitter hope your calling Kidd one also after last season, hey I call Carter and Kidd both quitters because it's true, they both are I hope you at least are man enough to do the same if your going to call Carter a quitter:D

ty
12-08-2008, 02:28 PM
Kidd was still almost averaging triple doubles when he left the Nets...not sure why you think he was a quitter.

VC on the other hand has always been viewed as the underachiever. His game shows exactly how apathetic he is when he plays. His flashes of brilliance show what he can be all the time.

But, what can you do...it runs in the family. (ref. TMac)

basketballgirl25
12-08-2008, 02:41 PM
Kidd was still almost averaging triple doubles when he left the Nets...not sure why you think he was a quitter.

because first he said he didn't demand a trade then he came out and said he did, that to me is a quitter, if he kept his mouth shut, then I wouldn't think of him as a quitter, but demanding a trade is quiting, at least he wanted to be traded to a good team to go to we could have sent him to portland

ghazi
12-08-2008, 04:53 PM
Kidd's not a quitter. Nothing wrong w/ wanting to play on a good team in the twilight of your career. The Mavs provided him that opportunity, the Nets didn't. Atleast he didn't slack off while a Net, as Carter did w/ the Raptors and at times w/ the Nets even. Kidd will not be boood when he comes back to NJ whereas Carter is always bood at Toronto

Vince Carter on the other hand is an apathetic loser. One of those players whose stats ominously spike up when they're playing for a contract, then come back down when their contract is given.

basketballgirl25
12-08-2008, 05:15 PM
Kidd will not be boood when he comes back to NJ whereas Carter is always bood at Toronto

Kidd won't be get as many boo's as Carter does for sure, but I don't think he will get a great welcome back like Iverson did in philly, I mean I don't think he will get a standing ovation. I know on Net message boards lots of people have said they won't cheer him, so he will deff get some boo's, just not as many, Raptor fans are bitter, 5 years after it even if Carter is a quitter it is time to get over it, but then again any player who can have great games when hearing all those boos, got to give him credit, so it is better no on boo's Kidd so he doesn't have fire

dirno2000
12-08-2008, 05:53 PM
Kidd was still almost averaging triple doubles when he left the Nets...not sure why you think he was a quitter.

Rod Thorne came out and said that Kidd didn't play as hard in his last days as a Net. That was one of the reasons they gave in to his trade demand.

basketballgirl25
12-08-2008, 06:02 PM
Rod Thorne came out and said that Kidd didn't play as hard in his last days as a Net. That was one of the reasons they gave in to his trade demand.

if you were a Nets fan, you could see Kidd was still good, but at the same time just not trying hard like you said in this comment.

Big Boy Laroux
12-08-2008, 06:19 PM
so this may have been posted already, but i didn't really want to read through the entire thread...

Saw this on TV the other day and thought it was pretty funny. Harris lands in a crowd of laker girls and doesn't want to leave:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbwkfuCiEFs

Dtownsfinest
12-08-2008, 06:25 PM
Kidd's not a quitter. Nothing wrong w/ wanting to play on a good team in the twilight of your career. The Mavs provided him that opportunity, the Nets didn't. Atleast he didn't slack off while a Net, as Carter did w/ the Raptors and at times w/ the Nets even. Kidd will not be boood when he comes back to NJ whereas Carter is always bood at Toronto

Vince Carter on the other hand is an apathetic loser. One of those players whose stats ominously spike up when they're playing for a contract, then come back down when their contract is given.

I thought Vince Carter gets boo'd in Toronto because they're pissed off he left lol. Bosh will get the same treatment after he bolts.

basketballgirl25
12-08-2008, 07:03 PM
I thought Vince Carter gets boo'd in Toronto because they're pissed off he left lol. Bosh will get the same treatment after he bolts.

Carter wanted to be traded, but then again the players who the traded for him didn't want to be there, so can you really blame carter for wanting out. mourning refused to show up and then I think it was Eric Williams how said he didn't want to play for the Raptors and said they could send him the the worst team in the nba

Tokey41
12-08-2008, 10:38 PM
The Raptors were absolutely screwed in that deal, Mourning is a quitter as well. He should have been man enough to play out his contract instead of whining where he was getting sent to... its a business. And Aaron and Eric Williams? Uber scrubs.

I think it was best for the Raptors to get rid of Carter's negative attitude. The fact that all they could find for him was that awful package tells me a lot of teams didn't want to risk him quitting on them as well. It's always best to keep your mouth shut if you an athlete.

ghazi
12-09-2008, 01:19 AM
I thought Vince Carter gets boo'd in Toronto because they're pissed off he left lol. Bosh will get the same treatment after he bolts.


I think he openly admitted to quitting on the Raptors, or atleast insinuated. Surely was supported by the sudden spike in his productivity upon the completion of the trade.

basketballgirl25
12-09-2008, 05:04 AM
It's always best to keep your mouth shut if you an athlete

thank you for saying this, I couldn't agree more, i don't care who it is it could be Lebron, Kobe, Carter, Dirk, Kidd, Iverson, etc all should keep their mouth shut.

basketballgirl25
12-09-2008, 04:54 PM
great read

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1149339/index.htm

also some good read about Nets and Knicks Rivalry

http://njmg.typepad.com/zzone/2008/12/a-new-era-in-the-rivarly.html