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alby
02-23-2010, 01:47 PM
Cuban = fortune teller?

LetsGoMavs
02-23-2010, 01:52 PM
That sucks for him, nonetheless, i´m glad we got him out of here early enough.

Didn´t he mention in an interview short time ago that he, at one point of his wrist injury, even considered ending his career?
It will be hard to come back from that type of injury, if the person affected possesses a sloppy work attitude like Josh...

accsuperstar
02-23-2010, 02:05 PM
stickin it to the mavs once again

mavsfan1000
02-23-2010, 02:18 PM
Poor guy. His fragility has really hurt his career of what could've been a great one based on his 2005-2007 level.

purplefrog
02-23-2010, 02:23 PM
Odd but somehow harmonious to have a thread about JHo in the "Around the NBA" forum rather than the "General Mavs Discussion" forum. On the other hand, hate to see this kind of injury. Hope he has a full recovery.

mavsfan1000
02-23-2010, 02:25 PM
Those with class would say Josh Howard didn't deserve this injury despite the problems we had with him.

EricaLubarsky
02-23-2010, 02:31 PM
Odd but somehow harmonious to have a thread about JHo in the "Around the NBA" forum rather than the "General Mavs Discussion" forum. On the other hand, hate to see this kind of injury. Hope he has a full recovery.

Its being discussed in the Mavericks section in this thread
http://www.dallas-mavs.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1071243#post1071243

as well as the General NBA watching thread
http://www.dallas-mavs.com/vb/showthread.php?t=35636&page=14

Not complaining, but it is everywhere.

accsuperstar
02-23-2010, 02:52 PM
just a terrible season for the wiz this year.

horse900703
02-23-2010, 02:54 PM
poor guy.

LonghornDub
02-23-2010, 03:40 PM
Only Spurs players deserve injuries. I wish Howard a speedy recovery.

Male30Dan
02-23-2010, 03:42 PM
That sucks for him, nonetheless, i´m glad we got him out of here early enough.

Didn´t he mention in an interview short time ago that he, at one point of his wrist injury, even considered ending his career?
It will be hard to come back from that type of injury, if the person affected possesses a sloppy work attitude like Josh...

I should have laid money on this happening. He had a past wrist injury so that definitely means he was going to suffer a major knee injury. Right???

nikeball
02-23-2010, 03:44 PM
stickin it to the mavs once again

ah yes

Dirkadirkastan
02-23-2010, 04:09 PM
Poor guy was just getting over his other injuries. Here's to a full recovery.

dalger
02-23-2010, 04:18 PM
Bad news once again for the mightily unfortunate Wizards. I feel mostly sorry for Josh who looked alright in his first few games with his new team. Having that kind of injury in a contract year is tough luck. I hoped things would work out fine for him in DC.

By the way, a torn ACL takes basketball players a full year to recover from? That's a lot.

LonghornDub
02-23-2010, 04:22 PM
Bad news once again for the mightily unfortunate Wizards. I feel mostly sorry for Josh who looked alright in his first few games with his new team. Having that kind of injury in a contract year is tough luck. I hoped things would work out fine for him in DC.

By the way, a torn ACL takes basketball players a full year to recover from? That's a lot.

Takes football players and soccer players just as long. All those sports revolve heavily around planting most or all of your weight on one leg and pivoting sharply off of that leg. With a torn ACL, it's like your knee can't support your own weight. It just buckles from underneath you.

LetsGoMavs
02-23-2010, 04:39 PM
I should have laid money on this happening. He had a past wrist injury so that definitely means he was going to suffer a major knee injury. Right???

That wasn´t quite the thing i meant to say - i just thought that at one point of the wrist injury recovery, Josh said in an interview, that he had moments in wich he considered to retire!?! (don´t know if thats true, but that is what i remember"

And because of this possible statement of him (occured while suffering from a minor injury), it came to my mind, that this could be the sad end of his career.

Of course this torn ACL doesn´t have anything to do with the wrist injury - except that its just annother blow to his shaky health.

Really hope that he can get his stuff together and will fully recover.

bobatundi
02-23-2010, 04:42 PM
Two words: Medical Marijuana.

dalger
02-23-2010, 06:05 PM
Takes football players and soccer players just as long. All those sports revolve heavily around planting most or all of your weight on one leg and pivoting sharply off of that leg. With a torn ACL, it's like your knee can't support your own weight. It just buckles from underneath you.

Okay, thanks. I don't really have any knowledge when it comes to basketball players recovering from torn ACLs. As it relates to soccer players, it seems to be at least possible to recover in 6-8 months instead of 10+ months. I've even heard of soccer players returning in less than 6 months. It might have to do with the tear itself as well as the procedure (or lack thereof) to get it fixed. Aside from chronic conditions, the only leg injury I've heard of to cause a (soccer) player to be sidelined for an entire year is a torn Achilles' tendon.

One way or the other, let's hope that Josh will be back as soon as possible--whether it's "already" in 6 months or after full year of rehabilitation. Two players of my favorite soccer club re-injured their ACL at some point after recovering from the first tear (one of them immediately after coming back) which seems to be another risk of returning to action early and/or that kind of injury in general. Here's hoping that Josh can come back early and without any further problems in that respect.

DubOverdose
02-23-2010, 06:28 PM
Just gotta say that we lucked out with timing! Get better!

ty
02-23-2010, 06:31 PM
The fact is, when you don't go hard for a while, and then you try going hard after an extended period of not going hard, the parts of you that are used to going hard lose performance, and even end up hurting you.

This is true for many things in life.

Sigh.

LonghornDub
02-23-2010, 07:17 PM
Okay, thanks. I don't really have any knowledge when it comes to basketball players recovering from torn ACLs. As it relates to soccer players, it seems to be at least possible to recover in 6-8 months instead of 10+ months. I've even heard of soccer players returning in less than 6 months. It might have to do with the tear itself as well as the procedure (or lack thereof) to get it fixed. Aside from chronic conditions, the only leg injury I've heard of to cause a (soccer) player to be sidelined for an entire year is a torn Achilles' tendon.

One way or the other, let's hope that Josh will be back as soon as possible--whether it's "already" in 6 months or after full year of rehabilitation. Two players of my favorite soccer club re-injured their ACL at some point after recovering from the first tear (one of them immediately after coming back) which seems to be another risk of returning to action early and/or that kind of injury in general. Here's hoping that Josh can come back early and without any further problems in that respect.

Yeah you're actually quite right. You tend to see soccer players come back in the 6-8 month range much more often than basketball players. I'm no doctor, but I'd imagine that some of it has to do with how the playing surfaces affect the severity of the tear.

sefant77
02-23-2010, 08:20 PM
At least he got allready one big contract, hope he didnt blow most of it.

Guess he not even get a MLE offer during the summer if he is still recovery.

mary
02-23-2010, 08:55 PM
Only Spurs players deserve injuries. I wish Howard a speedy recovery.

Kobe?

LonghornDub
02-23-2010, 09:07 PM
Kobe?

I actually don't really mind Kobe, but there certainly is a very practical reason for the Mavs to wish injury on him currently, so yeah, you're right. But the reason I wish injury on all the Spurs (except Finley) is quite different.

mavsfan1000
02-23-2010, 09:16 PM
Well I don't wish injury on anyone. The asterisks remark will be used if Kobe goes down. If we beat them full strength, that would be more remarkable.

92bDad
02-23-2010, 10:03 PM
Regardless of what I think about Howard, this news freakin SUCKS!!!

I hate seeing players go down due to injuries and I wish him a speedy recovery!!!

Male30Dan
02-23-2010, 10:22 PM
That wasn´t quite the thing i meant to say - i just thought that at one point of the wrist injury recovery, Josh said in an interview, that he had moments in wich he considered to retire!?! (don´t know if thats true, but that is what i remember"

And because of this possible statement of him (occured while suffering from a minor injury), it came to my mind, that this could be the sad end of his career.

Of course this torn ACL doesn´t have anything to do with the wrist injury - except that its just annother blow to his shaky health.

Really hope that he can get his stuff together and will fully recover.

For the record, my post wasn't at all pointed at you. It was referencing really really stupid comments from a couple other threads. :)

Lor20
02-23-2010, 10:50 PM
sucks for josh but better for the mavs that it happens now than 1 week ago or our season is basically over (wiz season is killed anyways).
not sure if hell be back.

LonghornDub
02-23-2010, 10:52 PM
Well I don't wish injury on anyone. The asterisks remark will be used if Kobe goes down. If we beat them full strength, that would be more remarkable.

My "Mavericks NBA Champions" t-shirt won't have an asterisk on it, so I really couldn't give two sh*ts.

EricaLubarsky
02-23-2010, 11:51 PM
My "Mavericks NBA Champions" t-shirt won't have an asterisk on it, so I really couldn't give two sh*ts.

Nor the rings, nor the O'Brien.

Anyway, you can't control what the ACL do. Crazy, man. Y'all hilarious.

mac222b
02-24-2010, 12:36 AM
best wishes and good recovery to Josh. hate to see anyone go down like that

mqywaaah
02-24-2010, 01:43 AM
feel awful for John Hughes. Real comic

bobatundi
02-24-2010, 08:19 AM
I don't want to see Kobe get injured just in the normal course of the game; but if he happened to, I dunno, break his arm while doing his signature clothesline-the-defender-across-the-throat move, that'd be justice. Or, maybe, if his ego simply causes his head to explode...

xrobx
03-17-2010, 12:15 AM
now it's been announced that he'll be out 6-8 months and will likely miss the beginning of next year as well.

so basically his career is over.

Underdog
03-17-2010, 08:56 AM
now it's been announced that he'll be out 6-8 months and will likely miss the beginning of next year as well.

so basically his career is over.

Can we call this trade Gasol-like yet?

I mean, we basically gave up NOTHING for Butler, Haywood and Stevenson.

Usually Lurkin
03-17-2010, 09:22 AM
Can we call this trade Gasol-like yet?
"Gasol-light" maybe. I don't think you get to call a trade "Gasol-like" unless it gets you a championship.

Underdog
03-17-2010, 09:23 AM
"Gasol-light" maybe. I don't think you get to call a trade "Gasol-like" unless it gets you a championship.

Patience...

MavsX
03-17-2010, 09:29 AM
Only Spurs players deserve injuries. I wish Howard a speedy recovery.

i agree with this

dalger
03-17-2010, 12:59 PM
Can we call this trade Gasol-like yet?

I mean, we basically gave up NOTHING for Butler, Haywood and Stevenson.

The difference between the Gasol trade and ours is that we gave up a player who we expected to play a significant role as it relates to our championship hopes. We gave up a talented former All-Star in Josh, who simply underachieved big time, while the Lakers got Gasol for Kwame Brown, Javaris Crittenton and the legendary Aaron McKie, none of them being even in their rotation.

On paper, Josh for Butler is a lateral move as long as both play according to their potential, which they don't do right now, I know. Then, Haywood for Gooden is great, but not Gasol-like. We've been significantly better since the trade and Donnie clearly milked the cow with strong hands, but Josh/Gooden for Butler/Haywood is not Gasol-like. Gasol-light fits it better, I think. Unless we win it all... ;)

AO41
03-17-2010, 07:26 PM
The difference between the Gasol trade and ours is that we gave up a player who we expected to play a significant role as it relates to our championship hopes. We gave up a talented former All-Star in Josh, who simply underachieved big time, while the Lakers got Gasol for Kwame Brown, Javaris Crittenton and the legendary Aaron McKie, none of them being even in their rotation.

On paper, Josh for Butler is a lateral move as long as both play according to their potential, which they don't do right now, I know. Then, Haywood for Gooden is great, but not Gasol-like. We've been significantly better since the trade and Donnie clearly milked the cow with strong hands, but Josh/Gooden for Butler/Haywood is not Gasol-like. Gasol-light fits it better, I think. Unless we win it all... ;)

why does everyone over look the other Gasol that was part of this trade???

EricaLubarsky
03-17-2010, 10:34 PM
The difference between the Gasol trade and ours is that we gave up a player who we expected to play a significant role as it relates to our championship hopes. We gave up a talented former All-Star in Josh, who simply underachieved big time, while the Lakers got Gasol for Kwame Brown, Javaris Crittenton and the legendary Aaron McKie, none of them being even in their rotation.

On paper, Josh for Butler is a lateral move as long as both play according to their potential, which they don't do right now, I know. Then, Haywood for Gooden is great, but not Gasol-like. We've been significantly better since the trade and Donnie clearly milked the cow with strong hands, but Josh/Gooden for Butler/Haywood is not Gasol-like. Gasol-light fits it better, I think. Unless we win it all... ;)

Kwame Brown was never good but was supposed to be a perennial allstar. Howard played well for a few years before his immaturity became an issue and he became as much of a spare as Brown.

When we traded Howard he really was as much a spare as Brown.

On the other hand we got a borderline allstar Gasol-esque player in Butler AND a top 15 starting-caliber player for a has-been spare, Gooden and change. We also gave up NO picks and received 3million in considerations.

Lakers traded trash AND two first round picks (albeit low ones).
We traded trash for Butler and Haywood without giving up any picks.

Howard WAS an allstar backup alternate that only hit the allstar game because of injury and because of immaturity, injury and personality issues turned into trash WAY before we even traded him. Its one thing to trade an allstar for an allstar. Josh WAS talented (with issues) but was utter trash way before we even traded him.

dalger
03-18-2010, 12:02 AM
As much as I love the fact that we no longer have to deal with Josh and everything that comes with him being supposed to be a no. 2 option on a championship-calibre team, he played terrific basketball at the end of last (!) season. The first round in the playoffs against the Spurs would have never been the spectacle it turned out to be without him. Josh very well might have been our best player in that series. Over the course of last season, he averaged a healthy 18/5 while shooting 45% from the floor despite being unhealthy with ankle and wrist issues that eventually killed us in the playoffs against Denver and required the surgeries he never really recovered from this season.

I know that he had an awfully hard time being productive in any way this season, but to say that he was "utter trash way before we even traded him" seems to be a little to critical of a player that even I gladly replaced with Caron Butler (and Haywood, of course).

EricaLubarsky
03-18-2010, 12:15 AM
The guy was as inconsistent as any player in the NBA before this year. The combination of his attitude, maturity, work ethic and injury made him absolutely terrible THIS season. Yes he was the MVP of the only playoff series win we've had in a while but he was a guy that would go off one game and go 4-16 the next with no rebounds or even defense (and rarely ever an assist even on a good game).

Had he actually been asked to defend someone (like Manu) I a) doubt he'd have put up great numbers offensively and b) been killed defensively

I dont mean to sound like I think he was BAD during that series, but it was totally overrated and it was a fluke amongst a long list of bad regular and post-season games.

dalger
03-18-2010, 01:14 AM
...and still, in the last two seasons before this one, Josh averaged 20/7 and 18/5 while shooting over 45% in each of the two seasons. Despite delivering more than the occasional brain fart and being a strange soldier over the years with unfortunate off-court issues, Josh simply wasn't trash. He was a good, albeit inconsistent player. This year, for whatever reason, he wasn't able to deliver, so we gladly traded him.

It seems to me that sometimes fans are much more critical of their own players than neutral observers would ever be (take JJB as an example). Oddly enough, at the same time we tend to be overly kind and oversee weaknesses and mistakes of our players (take Roddy as an example).

My point is that the Gasol trade gave the Lakers a perennial All-Star for absolutely nothing in exchange. Brown, Crittenton and McKie not only weren't productive, they weren't even supposed to be of any notable importance as far as the Lakers' championship goals were concerned. We, however, gave up two rotation players, one of them being a former All-Star and cornerstone of this franchise for years, who were definitely supposed to "deliver". We lost something to gain something good. The Lakers just gained something good (and actually won a title). That's why I'd still say their trade was even more lopsided than ours. That said, our deal is pretty close, no question.

sefant77
03-18-2010, 08:34 AM
So guess Josh will sign a 1 year MLE deal next year, maybe with luck longterm 3-4 if he comes back early and strong during september...

EricaLubarsky
03-18-2010, 12:32 PM
...and still, in the last two seasons before this one, Josh averaged 20/7 and 18/5 while shooting over 45% in each of the two seasons. Despite delivering more than the occasional brain fart and being a strange soldier over the years with unfortunate off-court issues, Josh simply wasn't trash. He was a good, albeit inconsistent player. This year, for whatever reason, he wasn't able to deliver, so we gladly traded him.

It seems to me that sometimes fans are much more critical of their own players than neutral observers would ever be (take JJB as an example). Oddly enough, at the same time we tend to be overly kind and oversee weaknesses and mistakes of our players (take Roddy as an example).

My point is that the Gasol trade gave the Lakers a perennial All-Star for absolutely nothing in exchange. Brown, Crittenton and McKie not only weren't productive, they weren't even supposed to be of any notable importance as far as the Lakers' championship goals were concerned. We, however, gave up two rotation players, one of them being a former All-Star and cornerstone of this franchise for years, who were definitely supposed to "deliver". We lost something to gain something good. The Lakers just gained something good (and actually won a title). That's why I'd still say their trade was even more lopsided than ours. That said, our deal is pretty close, no question.

I didnt and wont argue that Josh was terrible. He was a decent player. That said its not terribly difficult to average 45% shooting when Dirk is drawing defenders. JJB, Kidd, JET and Najera are the only guys NOT averaging 45% FG% that get minutes and this is the first year JET has ever shot below 45% as a Mav. The rebounding is also a little inflated because we really never had a consistent starting center especially in Howard's heyday. We can see even Dirk's rebounding numbers slump with a consistent center.

Josh was the inconsistent, brain-dead semi-talent that you describe, but even in his prime he was too much of an inconsistent and selfish player to ever be a guy to help a winning team take it to the next level. This year (and probably for the rest of Howard's career) we saw just how bad he really is. He really cant pass, cant play within a set offense (other than isos) and without his athleticism the guy has absolutely no game.

As a Mavs fan I stuck my neck out defending the guy-- I wanted to believe he was a good guy really working on his comeback from injury but the fact is all the press pointed to the fact that he was nuts and really not the trooper that Dirk, Terry and others are.

Again I'd argue that we got at least as good a deal as the Lakers.

Lakers gave up 2 first rounders for a borderline allstar

Mavs gave up a depleted and fading semi-star who really should never have been an allstar for a non-depleted, non-fading borderline allstar (on par with Gasol) AND a top 10 center in the league.

Even if giving up Howard was more than giving up two first rounders, we got more back in the deal. And I'd argue (and have been) that Howard was always overrated, that he's nowhere near the borderline star he once was (and will never be again) and that he's a total nutcase and lockerroom cancer that distracted the guys to the point that our pre- allstar break record reflected the lack of focus attributable to Howard. Howard was a net -5 here this year and he was supposed to not only be a starter but a star and he obviously wasnt even better than the other guys we put at the 2/3.

Howard is nowhere near the player he once was and combine that with his cancerous lockerroom presence and you get a guy that was a net negative. We added by his subtraction AND got more talent back than the Lakers did.

dalger
03-18-2010, 04:11 PM
I wouldn't even argue with most of the things you say. With that said, I still don't think that Josh's contributions and importance to this team can be compared to nobodies like Brown, Crittenton and McKie. It took Josh until this season to not only be inconsistent but mostly mediocre as well. Until this season, he was our x-factor. In August of 2009, a little more than six months ago, Fish wrote the following (click here (http://www.dallasbasketball.com/fullColumn.php?id=1947)):

Against San Antonio, the Mavs won four games. In those four, J-Ho scored 21.8 points per game on 51-percent shooting and Dallas averages 99.5 points per game. In the one loss? Josh scored just seven points and Dallas managed just 84. The injuries created similar tell-tale numbers for the regular season. With J-Ho in the lineup last year, the Mavs were 33-19 with J-Ho in the lineup, a 52-win pace. Without him, Dallas was 17-13, a 46-win pace. And one more number: When Josh played in a game but played fewer than 22 minutes (for whatever reason), Dallas was 0-4. In games in which Howard played 22 minutes or more, the Mavs were 33-15 – a 56-win pace.

Whether we like it or not, he actually did help us win games until this season. He wasn't as good and consistent or just reliable on and off the court as we hoped he would be, but he still helped us win games. When productive, which he was more often than not, Josh made us a better team, as evidenced by the aforementioned stats and numbers. Things changed, as we know, and Fish wrote another article, stating the following (http://www.dallasbasketball.com/fullColumn.php?id=2462) on January 18, 2010:

As we get you ready for Mavs-at-Celtics in today's Mavs Afternoon Drive, check out this rather stunning stat and you see how the “X-Factor’’ has been an 0 factor. The Mavs began this season with Josh mostly in street clothes, as he worked his way back from injury for as month or so. Without him, they logged a 13-7 record, which over 82 games would put them on pace for 53-54 wins and a likely 2nd-6th playoff seed in the West. But now he's back and has played quite a few games. With him added to the lineup, after Sunday in Toronto they are a glittering, wonderful, impressive (wait for it) … 13-7. Yep, that's right. The Mavs have the identical record with or without the player who was expected to be the X-Factor that would push them up the ladder by his addition, and with him starting they are now only 3-3. That's not good. And it implies that he is NOT the final missing piece to the Mavs' puzzle this season.

Obviously, something changed THIS season. As a result, we're better off now with Butler instead of Josh. As far as the Lakers are concerned, one of the reasons why the Gasol deal was so lopsided and unique is the impact it had on the team. The Lakers gave up first rounders AND Marc Gasol, which takes a lot of greatness out of that deal, but all of that didn't impact the Lakers as Marc Gasol and the picks were only potential additions for the future, not the here and now. One could question Josh's and Gooden's value for the Mavs, but they weren't as useless as the players the Lakers gave up for Gasol. We did give up something, the Lakers didn't. I also think it's questionsable to say that our deal is Gasol-like now due to Josh's torn ACL.

Now, if we were to leave the Lakers behind, I would definitely be willing to say that our trade was as good as theirs. Until then, we'll just have to wait and see.

mavErika
03-23-2010, 11:55 PM
Josh wrote about the trade and his rehab from knee surgery on his blog:
http://www.joshhoward.com/index.php?q=node/267

here's the part about the trade:

FROM THE LONE STAR TO THE CAPITAL
I reflect fondly on my time in Dallas.

It was a wonderful experience. I was just talking to somebody earlier about how in my rookie year Marquis Daniels and I came in with people like Steve Nash, Dirk of course, Michael Finley, Tony Delk, Travis Best, Antawn Jamison.

Those were the veterans that I came up under so I was able to learn a lot from the jump. Then I went through my career with Don Nelson and Avery Johnson as my coaches, then the last two years with Rick Carlisle.

Coach Carlisle and I agreed on a lot of things and we had a great relationship. I wish the Mavericks the best. The trade did them good just like I think the trade did Washington good until I got hurt. I’m a fan of the game and I’m glad they’re out there playing hard, doing what they’re doing. I learned so much from playing under those coaches and with that team, so I have the utmost respect for Dallas.

When I arrived in Washington it was kind of like a new beginning. I was just glad to be out there and having fun playing. I’m still around the team and I go to practices. They’re on a road trip right now, but when they’re here, I go there to do my rehab and stuff like that.

The time that I’ve spent around coach Flip has been great. He always reminds me that they tried to draft me when he was in Minnesota when I was coming out. He wanted me and he didn’t like the pick that they made with Ndudi Ebi. He still talks about that to this day.

Spending time around the Wizards, I’ve been getting to know the guys and they’re cool. Andray Blatche, Nick Young, Mike Miller, Early Boykins, they’re the vets. Those guys have all welcomed me with open arms. It’s also great being close to my home in North Carolina. You can’t beat that. My grandmother and my mom are on their way up to see me right now.

They were happy when I got traded and it worked out for the best. It’s good to be back on the East Coast.

ItGetzReal
04-20-2010, 04:05 PM
"Gasol-light" maybe. I don't think you get to call a trade "Gasol-like" unless it gets you a championship.

Hmmm. A damp expiring contract for Chris bosh would be a "Gasol-like" deal ! A fools dream but would be awesome :)