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View Full Version : Kidd as MVP talk and Eastern Bias.


Dooby
06-13-2002, 09:10 AM
From Ron at LMF:

"MVP hysteria about Kidd this year is as good an example of Eastern bias as I have ever seen. Compare Kidd's last regular season, with Kidd this season. He averaged noticeably lower in scoring and shot a whole lot worse from the field THIS year than last. His assists and steal were virtually identical - .1 difference each way. He led the NBA in assists last year but was second this year. His rebounding improved noticeably this year. He led his Phoenix team to a 51-31 last season, while the Nets were ONE game better at 52-30 this year."

Drbio
06-13-2002, 09:15 AM
East coast bias pisses me off to no end.

TheKid
06-13-2002, 10:23 AM
Is that his fault though that the eastern conference has less talent? So last year he was on a team that Made the playoffs IN the Western conference but didn't make the playoffs this year IN the Western conference. This year he was on a team in the WEAK Eastern conference that finished with #1 Seed in the conference but had the WORST record last year in teh WEAK Eastern conference. Hmmmm???? It says that he's very vital to a teams success and he's done damn good job on capitalizing. As I said before, I would have NO problem with him being MVP, that argument about him being in a weak conference or east coast bias is a JOKE...

Drbio
06-13-2002, 10:39 AM
Whereas I agree that Kidd was an MVP candidate.....to blow off east coast bias is wrong. It exists and is pervades most sports.

Murphy3
06-13-2002, 10:49 AM
there has always been an east coast bias....there still is.

Hoopsmeister
06-13-2002, 10:51 AM
<< As I said before, I would have NO problem with him being MVP, that argument about him being in a weak conference or east coast bias is a JOKE... >>



The point, Kid, is simply that Kidd had the same type of season this year as he has been having for years on the Suns. And never before has he been considered a serious MVP candidate. So what changed? Not Kidd's game but the attention it got because he was playing in the East (whether because of media east coast bias or because of his impact because the East was such a weak conference.)

TheKid
06-13-2002, 10:57 AM
Well I guess the reason I'm not really sold on the east coast bias is because in NO OTHER MARKET will the media turn on you like the media will on the east coast.

That's why I've always said, New York and New Jersey teams are NOT for everyone. As much as Kidd is loved right now, let him start the season off next year bad, they will call for his head. Why do you think Marbury didn't have a problem leaving because they loved him when he came but when they weren't winning, they had NOTHING good to say about him and he was still putting up good numbers.

So I guess that's why I don't really think there is a bias because just as fast as they like you, they can hate you even faster.

Look at it in baseball. Giambi was BOOED at his home stadium the first few weeks he was on the Yankees, NOW the guy runs the town. So if someone said the &quot;FICKLE&quot; East coast media, I would buy that.

TheKid
06-13-2002, 11:03 AM
The point, Kid, is simply that Kidd had the same type of season this year as he has been having for years on the Suns. And never before has he been considered a serious MVP candidate. So what changed? Not Kidd's game but the attention it got because he was playing in the East (whether because of media east coast bias or because of his impact because the East was such a weak conference.)

Well sometimes it's about timing and impact a player has on a team to recognize that. What I'm saying is, when he went to the Suns, it was a team that had experienced success already so simply taking a team to the playoffs wasn't enough to give him the notariety, it took him going to a sorry team.. Remember at the beginning of the season he said he would be upset if they didn't go deep into the playoffs. EVERY person said that was good to think that way, but he was NUTS because NO team can go from worst to being that competitive. THAT had more to do with it than his actual numbers.

As everyone has said, Kidd is not a player that you look at his numbers and become impressed with. It's his impact on the game. He impacts it in so many ways that it's hard to measure it.

Hoopsmeister
06-13-2002, 11:54 AM
<< THAT had more to do with it than his actual numbers. >>



And the corresponding criticism is that it is the pathetic level of the East that had more to do with than his actual numbers as well.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, btw. I thought Duncan or Shaq deserved it and Duncan got it. But I wouldn't have been throwing a fit if Kidd had gotten it.

Murphy3
06-13-2002, 12:18 PM
hoops, i think i've said the same thing..but maybe i might have said it with more expletives and negative comments towards the Leastern conference.

i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif
oh well.

It's kinda like someone rushing for 1000 yards on 200 carries in the BigSky conference compared to someone rusing for 1000 yards on 200 carries in the Big12.
the one in the Big12 simply accomplished the same thing as the BigSky running back when the Big12 guy did it against consistantly better competition.

TheKid
06-13-2002, 12:32 PM
As I said before I agree with you but does that mean the guy who rushed for the 1000 in the Big Sky doesn't deserve credit for the 1000 yards or receive accolades simply because it is a inferior conference? Granted it may not be AS impressive but impressive nonetheless.

Also, like I said before, I surely don't have a problem with Duncan winning the MVP and Shaq can arguably get the damn thing EVERY year. I would have been upset if someone like Kobe got simply because he played in the Western conference. That's where I would throw a tantrum because I think Kidd was more deserving of it than someone like Kobe or even Dirk and Nash for that matter.

Hoopsmeister
06-13-2002, 12:42 PM
<< I would have been upset if someone like Kobe got simply because he played in the Western conference. That's where I would throw a tantrum because I think Kidd was more deserving of it than someone like Kobe or even Dirk and Nash for that matter. >>



I'd have thrown a fit if Kobe won it because a player should be clearly the MVP of his own team before he gets consideration for league MVP. And Kobe is clearly the second most valuable player on the Lakers.

I agree that Kidd deserved it more than Dirk or Nash.

Drbio
06-13-2002, 01:10 PM
There would have been league-wide revolt if Dirk, Nash, or showbe had won. The only two options IMO were Duncan and Kidd.

Murphy3
06-13-2002, 01:20 PM
the only two options were shaq and duncan

Murphy3
06-13-2002, 01:20 PM
people should have revolted because kidd finished second, not third.

Drbio
06-13-2002, 01:21 PM
Shaq was kind of understood in that discussion I thought.

Drbio
06-13-2002, 01:22 PM
Kidd deserved consideration...anywhere in the 2-3 range was fine with me. I agree with Duncan though.

TheKid
06-13-2002, 03:55 PM
Well this I KNOW is bias, but I could have justified in my mind if Dirk got it. I couldn't have done that for Nash or Kobe though.

Drbio
06-13-2002, 03:59 PM
As much as I love the guy...Dirk was not MVP quality this year. He has it in him to be there, but this year he was in the top 10 but not the top 3.

Murphy3
06-13-2002, 04:01 PM
no, not a top 3 guy for the MVP last year by any means...

Hoopsmeister
06-13-2002, 04:10 PM
<< As much as I love the guy...Dirk was not MVP quality this year. He has it in him to be there, but this year he was in the top 10 but not the top 3. >>



Dirk this last year got to the point of being mentioned with the other 'also-rans' like McGrady, Payton, etc. He was definitely in the top 10, maybe close to top 5 contenders. But he definitely wasn't in the top 3.

Bayliss
06-13-2002, 04:15 PM
Exactly. Dirk had a good year (and therefore was elevated to MVP talk), but he did not have a legitimate shot at winning.

If the Mavs win the Midwest and have 60+ wins, then he could be considered. But until that happens, he will not be and should not be considered top 3 in MVP voting.

Drbio
06-13-2002, 04:25 PM
I think he gets those 60 wins next year and gets a look.

TheKid
06-13-2002, 04:26 PM
No I understand that but I'm saying IN MY MIND, I would have made myself believe he deserved mostly because I would not have all been upset. However I see Dirk last year in the same category as Kobe, McGrady and Payton as someone else said and I would have went absolutely ape shit if one of those guys won it. However for some reason I would have been fine if Dirk won it.

Hoopsmeister
06-13-2002, 04:37 PM
<< No I understand that but I'm saying IN MY MIND, I would have made myself believe he deserved mostly because I would not have all been upset. However I see Dirk last year in the same category as Kobe, McGrady and Payton as someone else said and I would have went absolutely ape shit if one of those guys won it. However for some reason I would have been fine if Dirk won it. >>



I see your point--because he's &quot;ours&quot;. I never would have pushed for him to be MVP, but if he had won, I'd probably make a good go at defending it too :-)

Dooby
06-13-2002, 05:02 PM
Kid, think of the question in reverse. Kidd's numbers last year were comparable to this year's numbers. Why was he not an MVP candidate last year? Is the Nets winning percentage the sole reason? If not the sole reason, then there is an east coast bias. In my mind, there is no other conclusion.

PeterVecseyisdumb
06-13-2002, 05:55 PM
Tim Duncan was clearly the MVP, this season. Duncan is the 2nd best player in the nba, right now. Duncan had probably his best regular season of his nba career, this regular season. Just about every gm in the nba would rather have Duncan than Kidd. Kidd had a great season, but is being overrated by a lot of people now. I think the only time that kidd made it out of the first round in the west, was the year when duncan got hurt. Now, kidd goes to the east one season, and the nets are in the finals. Put payton on the nets(instead of kidd), and the nets probably have a similar season. However, payton isn't getting as much hype, right now. Payton plays in the west, and Kidd plays in the east. The eastern conference is a terrible conference, right now.

It's amazing that there are so many biased east coast writers out there. The nets had injuries all last season. Kenyon Martin was in his rookie season, and got injured, and missed about the entire 2nd half of the season. Kittles was injured, last season. Van Horn was injured, last season. The nets didn't have TMAC, richard jefferson, or collins. I think the nets leading rebounder last season, was evan echemeyer. If the nets had all of those injuries, this year, they obviously wouldn't have won as many games, this season. For some reason, people don't seem to understand how devastating the injuries to the nets, were last season.

Drbio
06-13-2002, 06:45 PM
It's like the injury bug that the Texas Rangers are facing this year.i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif