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View Full Version : Rockets turn down offer for Yao Ming


Drbio
06-15-2002, 07:57 PM
The Rockets turned down the Knicks offer of Marcus Camby and the seventh pick for the No. 1 pick in the draft today according to rotoworld.com.

Hoopsmeister
06-15-2002, 11:07 PM
Like anyone besides Knicks management is surprised to hear that.

Bayliss
06-15-2002, 11:32 PM
Throw in a bucket of KFC and the Rockets would make the deal.

MavKikiNYC
06-16-2002, 08:23 AM
Sadly, that's probably the BEST offer the NYKs can make. No other players of any real value, even less so considering contracts, and less yet considering Houston's need.

Perhaps if the NYKs offered a lap dance from Sen. Hillary Clinton........

Bayliss
06-16-2002, 11:18 AM
<< Perhaps if the NYKs offered a lap dance from Sen. Hillary Clinton........ >>



If the Knicks do that, no team in the NBA would do business with them again.

Drbio
06-16-2002, 11:25 AM
hahaha.....the Clinton lap dance is a definite deal breaker!

Mavkiki nailed it though...that is probably the best the Knicks can do at this point.

dallmav
06-16-2002, 12:43 PM
Yao MIng = Bradley #2

Hoopsmeister
06-16-2002, 12:51 PM
<< Yao MIng = Bradley #2 >>



I think that's an unfair statement and most likely wrong--even if Yao is a bust. A considerable percentage (at least 50% I would say) of the fault for why Bradley is the continuing disappointment he is has nothing to do with his actual physical but capabilities but rather lies inside Bradley's head. Guy has a weak worth ethic, doesn't care much for the game, and not enough pride. At our remove from Yao, its impossible to know anything about the inside of his head.

Bayliss
06-16-2002, 01:17 PM
And let's not forget that under Nellie, Bradley gets inconsistent playing time.

If Dirk got 5 minutes for 1 game... 0 minutes for another game... 30 minutes another game... 15 minutes another game... how effective do you think Dirk would be?

[It's a simple adage, but... you can't play consistently without consistent minutes. Bradley last year never got consistent minutes (and that was when he played well)]

mali king
06-16-2002, 03:16 PM
Maybe I'm not competent enough, but never mind. *sigh* here it goes&gt;

Bradly is an ulcer occupying a valuable position and space. Get rid of him ASAP.

Murphy3
06-16-2002, 04:09 PM
i agree hoops..it's amazing how willing some people are to lable yao ming a bust when they've never actually seen the guy play but maybe a couple of minutes

Drbio
06-16-2002, 05:15 PM
I don't think Yao Ming will be a bust, but I do see similarities between him and Ralph Sampson.



mali- I think Bradley would be an average to good player if he got minutes like Bayliss said.

PeterVecseyisdumb
06-16-2002, 06:15 PM
<< I don't think Yao Ming will be a bust, but I do see similarities between him and Ralph Sampson.



mali- I think Bradley would be an average to good player if he got minutes like Bayliss said. >>



If Ralph Sampson didn't get injured, Ralph Sampson probably would have been a great player in the nba.

Bayliss
06-16-2002, 06:18 PM
Yep Ralph probably would've been great. After all, he was a 7 footer with moves and quickness of a small forward...

MavKikiNYC
06-16-2002, 06:50 PM
Though strangely, he couldn't seem to beat an ancient Maurice Lucas off the dribble, or defend Tom Chambers.

Drbio
06-16-2002, 07:11 PM
I really do see similarities between Yao and Ralph. I'm surprised that anyone is surprised about that comparison.

Hoopsmeister
06-16-2002, 09:43 PM
<< mali- I think Bradley would be an average to good player if he got minutes like Bayliss said. >>



I think Bradley has gotten the minutes Bradley has earned.

Bayliss
06-16-2002, 09:51 PM
Hoops... I agree that Bradley sucked for most of the year.... but when he did play well, he was immediately yanked and benched after a what Nellie thought was a &quot;dumb mistake&quot;.... Bradley didn't need to be treated like a rookie... you don't reward a player who played well by chewing his ass out and benching him for 1 dumb mistake (And Nellie did that time and time again... it has got to wear on Bradley's psyche(sp?))

Murphy3
06-16-2002, 11:00 PM
i think bradley played poorly last year but I also think Nellie handled the situation very poorly as well.
When bradley played well, nellie was quick to find any excuse to yank him.
you could definitely see why so many players over the years have had problems with Nellie. Fortunately, Nellie seemed to only deal with bradley in the manner and not be a complete jackass to others on the team

David
06-17-2002, 05:48 AM
No one was a bigger Bradley proponent that Nelson. Nelson traded for Bradley and immediately designated him a cornerstone and caught endless criticizism ever after.

Nelson stuck with Bradley after he found out what every other coach that has ever coached him knows. That is that Bradley has all the talent in the world and uses about 10% of that talent. Bradley really feels like playing only seldom. Bradley makes the same misstakes over and over. What got to Nelson was after all the loyalty he showed Bradley and signed him to a long-term undeservered contract, Bradley started talking back in front of the team. Nelson has just had enough of Bradley and needs to cut him or trade him.

It's partly Nelson's fault but Bradley has worn out his welcome at Philadelphia, NJ and now, probably Dallas. I hate to see his talent go to waste but it is about 95% Bradley's fault. Just my opinion.

Drbio
06-17-2002, 06:58 AM
I think we can all agree that Bradley needs to play elsewhere even if we don't all think it's for the same reason.

Usually Lurkin
06-17-2002, 09:10 AM
<< Yao MIng = Bradley #2 >>



let's not forget that the chinese draw is probably worth a lot more $$ than the mormon draw. No offense to the mormon population, it's a supply and demand ratio.

MavKikiNYC
06-17-2002, 09:16 AM
There's always a Bradley fan contingent at Mavericks games. They come two-at-a-time.


Why isn't SB restless to get back to Utah anyway?

Usually Lurkin
06-17-2002, 09:19 AM
two at a time - interesting.
do they get to bring in their bicycles and flip books?

Hoopsmeister
06-17-2002, 10:43 AM
<< Bradley didn't need to be treated like a rookie... >>



I'm not so sure about that. As David points out, prior to this season, nobody has been a bigger Bradley supporter than Nellie himself. Even as Bradley's numbers eroded every year, Nellie kept him in the rotation, lowered his own expectations and kept trying to make it work. If Bradley finally outlasted even Nellie's patience with him, I don't have a lot of sympathy.

But to get back to the thread's initial topic, even if Nellie had played Bradley consistent minuts and even if Bradley had performed at last year's levels, Bradley would still have to be considered a bust relative to his draft position. And the basic reason for that has always been his mindset. Yao may or may not be a bust, but until he has demonstrated the same complete lack of dedication that Bradley has, there is no reason to compare the two players.

Murphy3
06-17-2002, 11:00 AM
<< As David points out, prior to this season, nobody has been a bigger Bradley supporter than Nellie himself. Even as Bradley's numbers eroded every year, Nellie kept him in the rotation, lowered his own expectations and kept trying to make it work >>


don't buy it at all.
when bradley played well, nellie had as quick of a leash as when he was playing poorly.
nellie wasn't a bradley supporter. Bradley played poorly last year but some of the blame must go on the head coaches shoulders..nellie didn't allow it to work even when it was working. why not? because of nellie's love for small ball

TheKid
06-17-2002, 01:27 PM
Sadly, that's probably the BEST offer the NYKs can make. No other players of any real value, even less so considering contracts, and less yet considering Houston's need.

Ok being a Knicks fan this comment pisses me off..........The only problem is it's true because the KNICKS ARE DUMB!!!!!!!!!

The difference in dealing with the Ming and Bradley is that the contract differences. Ming wouldn't get that ridiculous seven year deal that pays him that enormous amounts of money. If Ming is a bust, then the Rockets are only obligated to him for 3 years NOT seven so it's probably much more worth the risk than it was for Bradley. Even though Bradley wasn't the first pick, but the second...

Drbio
06-17-2002, 03:00 PM
Kid- I feel your pain on the Knicks....that is a terrible situation there right now. But they will get better.

David
06-17-2002, 05:54 PM
<<

<< As David points out, prior to this season, nobody has been a bigger Bradley supporter than Nellie himself. Even as Bradley's numbers eroded every year, Nellie kept him in the rotation, lowered his own expectations and kept trying to make it work >>


don't buy it at all.
when bradley played well, nellie had as quick of a leash as when he was playing poorly.
nellie wasn't a bradley supporter. Bradley played poorly last year but some of the blame must go on the head coaches shoulders..nellie didn't allow it to work even when it was working. why not? because of nellie's love for small ball >>



Nelson had Bradley on a short leash last year after he did the talking back. Bradley got plenty of undeserved minutes the years before.

Yao should go at the top of this draft. Bradley was a #2 overall pick. Their physical dimensions are similar. Thus the comparisons. If Yao has a Bradley-like &quot;love&quot; of the game, heaven help the Rockets or whoever drafts him.

Bradley made his bed. Nelson is just finally making him lie in it. If you have Shawn Bradley to trot out there, you soon learn to love small ball, because with Bradley, tall ball ain't workin'.

Bayliss
06-17-2002, 06:28 PM
David, and when Bradley plays well (a couple of blocks... a few rebounds.. maybe a few points) in about 10 minutes of action, do you immediate yank him out because he makes a turnover?



(Nellie did that repeated late in the season last year. Yes Bradley made his bed. Yes Bradley had to lie in it. But Bradley served his punishment and did not deserve to be yanked over something stupid **when** he was playing well.)

Murphy3
06-17-2002, 06:38 PM
hell, it didn't even have to be a turnover.. nash could get burned off the dribble and bradley wouldn't recover in time (which isn't always the fault of the interior defender) and nellie would throw a pissin' fit and take bradley out..

nellie let his emotions get in the way of what was best for the team at times with the bradley situation... yes, most of this was bradley's fault..but nellie deserve quite a bit of the blame as well

Bayliss
06-17-2002, 06:46 PM
Put it in perspective:

First full year with Mavs
1997-1998:
64 games
28.5 minutes
42% FG
72% FT
8.1 RPG
.9 APG
.8 SPG
3.34 BPG
11.4 PPG

Now last year
2001-2002
53 games
14.3 minutes
48% FG
92% FT
3.3 RPG
.4 APG
.53 SPG
1.21 BPG
4.1 PPG

Now then looking at those stats... there really isn't **a lot** of difference. The only one that is glaring out at me is that he played half as many minutes. Why? His production didn't fall out of that bad to warrant half his minutes. And his blocks and rebounds would be on par if he got twice as many minutes because of more attempts... there is a &quot;compound&quot; factor in basketball much like interest.

(I never thought I'd be a Bradley apologist, but if ya give him 30 minutes a game... he'll give ya 8-10 pounts, 7-9 rebounds, and 2-4 blocks. Not bad production from a center, eh? The only question was why wasn't he given 30 minutes?)

Murphy3
06-17-2002, 06:48 PM
his numbers were down last year..especially early. however, over the last half of the year when he was playing pretty well, he still didn't get the minutes that his play warranted.

David
06-18-2002, 05:41 AM
Bradley is a case of the stats not showing diddly. The stats don't show his attitude or the beating he is to play with for the other players on his team. I give Bradley the talent to get the job done. The thing is, he doesn't get the job done. Bradley is a tease and he always has been. He gets the blame sometimes when he shouldn't and he has gotten the benefit of the doubt sometimes when he shouldn't, also.

Bradley is hard to coach. How do you know when he feels like playing? When do you reward him? He plays 10 minutes and does OK and then screws up. Do you handle him like a pitcher in baseball? Pull him out when he starts to go south or do you leave him in there and give him a chance to REALLY screw up? If it's a close game the damage may already be done by the time you pull him.

Bradley is frustrating. All the talent in the world but...

Murphy3
06-18-2002, 07:41 AM
when he's playing well, you leave him in there.. you don't let your own ego get in the way of what's best for the team.. nellie pulled bradley for reasons other than what was being done on the court. if you're going to play him, then that should never be the case.

Bayliss
06-18-2002, 09:24 AM
<< Bradley is hard to coach. How do you know when he feels like playing? When do you reward him? He plays 10 minutes and does OK and then screws up. Do you handle him like a pitcher in baseball? Pull him out when he starts to go south or do you leave him in there and give him a chance to REALLY screw up? If it's a close game the damage may already be done by the time you pull him. >>



I say leave him out there. But hey, my philosophy and Nellies clashes.

Our D went from 96.2 in 2000-2001 to 101 last year. And a big part of that was Bradley's playing time cut in half. For some reason others on the court play better when Bradley's in there (especially Dirk). Not sure why.

MavKikiNYC
06-18-2002, 10:20 AM
Our D went from 96.2 in 2000-2001 to 101 last year. And a big part of that was Bradley's playing time cut in half. For some reason others on the court play better when Bradley's in there (especially Dirk). Not sure why.

But scoring also went from 100 to 105, so the primary reason would seem to be a faster-paced game, with more shots for the opponent. I really don't think much of the increase in points allowed is attributable to Bradley's reduced playing time. Judging from the playoffs, Bradley got just about the mintues he deserved.

If Bradley helps his teammates' performances, does that suggest that the LaF trade was a mistake? Is Bradley a better defensive presence than LaF? If so, what to do now with LaF?--start him alongside Mantis and Dirk? A lineup of Mantis, LaF and Dirk (at 3) doesn't look to hold much defensive promise, and it's hard for me to see how this is going to help Dirk's game--least of all with him getting beaten like a stray dog by oppoents' quick 3s.

To some degree, I think it represents a failing on Nellie's part that he hasn't been able to motivate Mantis better and get more out of him. But at this point, it looks like Mantis just doesn't care anymore and doesn't have his head into at all. The next mistake that Nellie will make with Mantis is by keeping him around.

Bayliss
06-18-2002, 10:45 AM
<< But scoring also went from 100 to 105, so the primary reason would seem to be a faster-paced game, with more shots for the opponent. I really don't think much of the increase in points allowed is attributable to Bradley's reduced playing time. Judging from the playoffs, Bradley got just about the mintues he deserved. >>



I don't think it was that our offensive game changes that much. I think it was we were more efficient than we were year before last. We shot a little better from the field and a little better from the line.

David
06-18-2002, 04:58 PM
The other team got more possessions last year because the Mavs put the ball in the hoop so much. That was talked about during the playoffs. If you have Bradley out on the court, the running game suffers. The Mavs were not a half court team last year for the most part.

If Nelson has failed with Bradley then so did the Sixer's coaches and the Net's coaches. What makes Bradley such a tease is coaches look at him and just KNOW that they can get to him and make a player out of him. They get him and have him for a while and see the reality. Nelson traded for Bradley and said, &quot;cornerstone&quot;. At least Nelson knows when he has made a mistake.

Murphy3
06-18-2002, 07:28 PM
no, he's not a cornerstone.. but he was deserving of more playing time for much of the season.


No, bradley doesn't have much of a negative effect on the break at all. he is great at rebounding and getting the ball to a player up court to start the break in a hurry..that is something he has always been good at.

MavKikiNYC
06-18-2002, 10:16 PM
I realize that you're very protective of Mantis, Murph, but.....

Where do you get some of this stuff? Every outlet pass from Mantis last year looked like a candidate for a turnover--either a steal or sailing out of bounds. It looked like he even started hesitating with his passes, which DID slow the break down a half second. And he is zero threat as a trailer because of his lack of speed.

Honestly....defend him if you must, but make it plausible.

Murphy3
06-18-2002, 10:22 PM
Mantis has always been known as a good outlet passer. Yes, he might have struggled from time to time last year at making the outlet pass but that is hardly indicative of his career.

Nellie has even commented in the past that he'd like Dirk to keep the ball high when grabbing the board and turn and look for the quick outlet more like bradley. sure, that was a couple of years ago though

Drbio
06-19-2002, 06:37 PM
Bradley is a very good passer.





























of gas maybe.....