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FineCubanCigar
03-05-2001, 08:34 AM
Ok, so even Bradley's biggest supporter, Don Nelson realizes he cannot match-up with most decent centers in the league. Mostly Bradley sits unless we are playing the Warriors and such, at which point he'll block six shots and score 4 points. When is the last time he had a big game? When it mattered? When is the last time he was in a game during crucial end moments? When is the last time he had a DECENT game against a team with a DECENT interior? My point is Bradley never comes through when it matters, and in the playoffs they all matter. Furethermore he is IN his prime years and he is only showing us THIS. I'm just saying he has no buisness starting for this team next year, we either need to sign and trade or overpay him to be a decent backup, but im sick of all this undeserved Bradley touting.

LonestarROB
03-05-2001, 09:22 AM
I agree completely. I'm ok(I think) with Bradley being a back up but if we expect to be a serious contender in the west with Bradley as our starter. We're in big trouble.

giostar
03-05-2001, 10:11 AM
Umless we can goout during the off season and get Mutombo, who else will we have to play center. I mean a true center that can block shots like he does. At the very least he keeps opposing teams from penetrating the lane and getting an easy lay up all the time. If the Mavs can keep him at a reasonable price, they should try. But if is going to command alot of money, which I think he is going to, the Mavs should let him go. There is going to be some team out there going to overpay for him if he goes out on the market.

FineCubanCigar
03-05-2001, 10:54 AM
"A true center that can block shots like he does" hahahaha i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif The only time he blocks shots is against teams with horrible interior players . . . why would we need him then anyway . . . he needs to be signed and traded, that might even get us into the draft this year . . .

LonestarROB
03-05-2001, 11:16 AM
"..who else will we have to play center. I mean a true center that can block shots like he does."

I think Booth could be the answer to that question.

djb
03-05-2001, 11:23 AM
Booth's stats are also remarkably similar to Bradley's, so I'm hoping he can crack the starting rotation next season. He's young and, unlike Bradley, hasn't fully reached his potential yet.

FineCubanCigar
03-05-2001, 11:54 AM
well said o'ye who turns the tables. Booth I think was a Bradley replacement. We don't need two guys like that, and Nelson has touted Bradley's horn enough to where he actually has some value. If we sign A.D. especially . . . Bradley becomes expendable cause Booth has the upside everyone thought Bradley had plus he has this thing called aggresiveness.

Evilmav2
03-05-2001, 01:25 PM
What's up, FineCuban... I see you are bringing your war against Bradley to the new Mavs site... That just means I will have to bring all the arguments that I am sure you have heard here too... Many of the steals that our fast break offense rely upon are brought about by the help defense Bradley. When he is in the game, our preimeter players are able to gamble in the passing lanes a lot more than they might otherwise, because they know Mr. Bradley is guarding the lane. For every embarassing highlight of Bradley getting dunked on by Mo Taylor or Derek Anderson, the film will show many more occasions where he intimidates, alters, or blocks players when they are driving the lane or trying to score in the paint. The principle reason that other teams aren't able to post us up on almost every possesion is because of the off the ball inrimidation that Bradley brings to the floor. I like Calvin Booth, but I just don't buy him as a replacement for Bradley just yet. He is injured, and unproven (although I trust Nelsons' assertion that he has a much bigger upside than Thomas, I don't think half a season with the lowly Clippers necessarily proves anything). How many teams in the league can claim to have a better starting center than Bradley on the roster? 15, 16? How many teams can claim to have a better shotblocker than Bradley? Zero... He is not the franchise player that Philly thought they were drafting back in 92, but he is a project that is finally starting to pay off on his long term promise. It took Rik Smits seven years to realize his offensive potential, and Bradleys' rebounding (#12 in the NBA per 48 min!) and shotblocking (#1 in NBA per 48, #2 overall) are head and shoulders above where Smits' were at the same stage of their careers. I am not saying that Bradley will be as good as Smits was in the latter part of the Dunking Dutchmans' career, but he has shown constant improvement, and Smits shows a good example of what a much derided "project" (as Smits was early in his career) can end up doing (he anchored the Pacers in the playoffs for seven years) It just would not be wise to trade away Bradley when his best years are ahead of him, but I think that Mr. Nelson and Mr. Cuban know that. Which is why Mr. Bradleys' jersey will hang above the rafters of the American Airlines Center someday...

erub
03-05-2001, 02:53 PM
No way Bradley will ever be retired. He is a great player, a nice addition to the Mavs, but there are only two players currently retired for the Mavs. He is defintely not one of the best of this era of Mavericks history. I don't know much about Booth, but unless he is 7 foot 6 he isn't going to be as imposing as Bradley is.

FineCubanCigar
03-05-2001, 02:55 PM
Evilmav, once again your bringing these per 48 min. stats . . . its b.s. for the mere fact that Bradley sits against QUALITY INSIDE OPPONENTS!!! Its like saying Findawg is the bomb shit and totally irreplaceable and then sitting him against all the good 2 and 3 men in the league, and then saying yeah but he avg. 68 pts per 48 minutes and 13 rebounds blah blah blah ... that type of argument is flawed by nature. If we want a defensive presance, we need one that can actually be in most games to provide that presance when it matters ... so when was Bradley's last big game? against a quality opponent? When was he playing down the stretch when it mattered? Don't you find it odd that even when his shotblocking abilities seem to be needed most he dissapears? Did you see him play against the Spurs last time? The fact is he only gets numbers when it doesn't matter and the numbers he does get are not all that impressive, especially looking at the teams he posted 7 blocks 4 pts and 6 rebounds against. In the playoffs, he is a minus rather than a plus, thats what hurts. In the playoffs, he will be schooled by quality big men, thats what hurts. In the playoffs, he will be sitting the bench instead of "patrolling" the lanes, thats what hurts. Bradley even has a short fuse which he has let hurt the team on more than one occasion, that hurts too. Furethermore, he always gets into foul trouble, so he couldn't even play 48 minutes to get any of the numbers you are reffering too. Nelson was even an inch away from unloading him on his Airness, but since Booth was hurt, we wouldn't even have a center

Big Boy Laroux
03-05-2001, 02:55 PM
good assessment of what bradley brings to the table, evilmav. however (and you may have been being sarcastic) I seriously doubt his jersey will be hanging from any rafters...

FineCubanCigar
03-05-2001, 02:58 PM
Bradley IMPOSING>> hahahahahahahahai/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif

dallmav
03-05-2001, 03:04 PM
Bradley is not and will never be good enough to have his Jersey in the high school rafters, much less retired and in the mavericks rafters. I like bradley, he brings good defense at times and has helped us win some ball games. He hasnt improved any since he got here. He will not take the time and effort in the offseason it takes to get better. I feel that Booth will be just as if not more effective than Bradley is. I think we should go after Antonio Davis this summer and do a sign and trade with someone and get rid of Bradley.
THE ONE PERSON WHO IS A BETTER SHOT BLOCKER THAN BRADLEY IS THEO RATLIFF. SO THERE IS ONE TEAM WITH A BETTER SHOT BLOCKER. HE NOW PLAYS FOR ATLANTA

giostar
03-05-2001, 03:34 PM
Ok, but is Theo Ratliff a free agent this season? And one more thing... You all seem to claim that Booth is the answer at center. Im sure all of you were claiming that Trent was the answer at the PF position or Robert Pack the answer at the PG. But these guys have been hurt their whole careers. Booth hasnt proven ANYTHING yet. I mean, come on, I can name 100 players with talent that dont produce. So until Booth shows something, The Mavs cant depend on him. I REALLY hope that Booth ends up being the player and basketball God that you all are making him to be. But until he does, who else do the Mavs have that can play center? They are getting by right now with Nowitzki who is really a SF/PF. Do you think he can match up with Shaq or Robinson? I do not beleive that Bradley is the best center in the league, but he isn't as bad as you all make him out to be. Davis and Mutombo may be the answer. But only if the Mavs can sign either one.

God, I can't believe Im defending Bradley... Thats it... it must be snowing in hell right now.

giostar
03-05-2001, 03:35 PM
Oh, and I do agree that there is NO way that Bradley's jersey will hang from the rafters. Come on... thats just crazy talk.

djb
03-05-2001, 03:38 PM
What are you talking about giostar? Bradley will have his jersey raised before that Mark Aguirre fella I keep hearing about i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

Evilmav2
03-05-2001, 04:00 PM
Mr. Bradley is currently having a career year for the Mavs(and I know it's his contract year). In the past y'all might have been able to rip on his rebounding or his sometimes comical shot attempts and FG%, but the fact of the matter is he is continuing to improve and he currently ranks amongst the league leaders of the NBA in a number of categories. These are some of his national rankings in rebounding and shotblocking, and they are nothing to sneeze at: Ranks #3 in the NBA in Blocks Per Game(2.85)
Ranks #2 in the NBA in Blocks(168.0)
Ranks #13 in the NBA in Defensive Rebounds Per 48 Minutes(10.2)
Ranks #16 in the NBA in Rebounds Per 48 Minutes(13.9)
Ranks #1 in the NBA in Blocks Per 48 Minutes(5.65)... For all you enemies of Bradley, just take a minute, take a deep breath, try to clear your mind, and forget all of the sportscenter jokes about Bradley over the last seven years. Try to forget the Mo Taylor dunk this year, or your mental picture of a Bradley skyhook falling two feet short... forget these things and think about how awful our team defense sometimes becomes when he is out of the game. Remember Bradley throwing elbows, and pinning shots to the backboard, and going toe to toe with Karl Malone, and frustrating Shaq with his spindly frame... Look beyond what the media says about Mr. Bradley (heck, they don't really know what they are talking about Mr. Cuban, do they?) and look at what he does for our team before you blindly denigrate the man. He is good and getting better. He is a project that is starting to bear real fruit. And he is a once and future Dallas Maverick. For these reasons he deserves a little more respect than most newly energized Mavericks fans seem to be giving him these days...

djb
03-05-2001, 04:10 PM
I agree with your assessment Evilmav2. If he agrees to a more reasonable contract, then he's definitely worth keeping. I'm sure he'd have a lot more fans here if he was paid a lot less and used primarily off the bench for backup and defensive purposes.

madape
03-05-2001, 04:10 PM
Good post EM. I'm here to support you in your battle with the Bradley-haters. I think the reduction in minutes for Bradley lately is likely due to Nelson trying to exploit certain matchups and to experiment with different on-floor combos now that Juwan is in the rotation. Once our big western conference games start rolling around, we'll get to see much more of the bradley bloodfest.

LonestarROB
03-05-2001, 04:10 PM
That's all well and good but when it comes to rebounds(#13and #16 respectfully), he's 7-6. He's should be among the league leaders. Top 5-6 IMO.

And also, if I'm not mistaken. Calvin Booth leads the league in Blocks per Minute. Booth plays 16 minutes a game and averages 2.0 block per game. Bradley, who plays 24.6 minutes a game only averages 2.8 blocks a game.

Evilmav2
03-05-2001, 04:12 PM
Thanks for the support djbacklash. This is a darn good site. Also, it's always good to see you MADAPE. It looks like all the Sportstalk Rant crew is finding their way here...

Evilmav2
03-05-2001, 04:14 PM
Thanks for the support djbacklash. This is a darn good site. Also, it's always good to see you MADAPE. It looks like all the Sportstalk Rant crew is finding their way here...

madape
03-05-2001, 04:15 PM
Rob - yes, Booth is a great shotblocker from what I've read. I haven't seen many Wizards games the past couple of years, but his stats look pretty good. If he'll be able to platoon with Bradley this season, block some shots and grab some boards, he'll be a great pick up. I used to dream about Bradley and Etan Thomas combining to be a monster shot-block duo in the post. I may have to transpose those visions to Bradley and Booth. Also - I think Nelson would love to get Laettner back next year with our 4 mil excpetion. I loved what L8's game brought to the Mavs. His game was completly opposite of Bradley's. I bet it gave the opposing team fits.

Evilmav2
03-05-2001, 04:15 PM
Whoops, sorry about the double post (triple now)... I'm not trying to jack up posts, it's to late for me to get in the running for that post # contest anyway...

LonestarROB
03-05-2001, 04:17 PM
BTW, I don't think any of us are "Bradley Haters". We just don't have much confidence in him taking us anywhere(deep into the playoffs, West Champs, NBA Champs) with him being our Starting center. If he'd except less money and play as our backup, then I think most of us would be cool with that.

djb
03-05-2001, 04:19 PM
The thing that intrigues me the most about Booth is that he puts up good numbers in limited mins AND he's only a soph!

Actually Evilmav2, EVERYONE'S got a shot at the jersey! The board's only been up for nine days, and there's still over six weeks until the winner is announced i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

madape
03-05-2001, 04:20 PM
Rob - I think Bradley is perfectly OK with the backup/platoon role. He's been playing all year. And do we care about pay-cuts? The Mavs are over the cap, and will stay there for as long as Cuban is the owner. Its not our money, we just get to enjouy the way Cuban spends it. Lets just forget about how much Howard and Bradly make and talk about what they bring to the game.

Evilmav2
03-05-2001, 04:24 PM
At this point it is not realistic to talk about Booth as a "replacement" for Bradley. He is a second year player who has shown promising statistical promise (I say that because I haven't seen much of him since his Penn State days), while playing against bench caliber players for a horrible team in the horrible Eastern Conference. That is not to say that he might not be a good player, but the "might" is the important part of that statement. He is injured, and has not really shown enough for anyone to be able to confidently assert that he will be able to bring what Bradley does to the table. After all, Lorenzo Williams was among the lead leaders in shot blockers in the NBA for a few years, but he couldn't do anything else. His rebounding was subpar for a starting center (6-8, 6-9 starting center?), and his scoring was non-existent (it's a good thing he had Popeye Jones to help hold down the paint). Bradley is a very efficient rebounder, and he doesn't hurt the team offensively. Booth is a question mark in many ways. Nice project (maybe further along than Thomas), but he is not really a solution right now...

madape
03-05-2001, 04:25 PM
EM - I don't think that there could have been a more appropriate icon to represent the "evilmav" character. That thing cracks me up.

Evilmav2
03-05-2001, 04:31 PM
One of the best things about Bradley is his attitude. I think he is willing to do whatever is necessary to win, and he really appreciates the lack of animosity that Dallas has shown him (expecially when compared to traschcan Philly and NJ). He has expressed these sentiments many times in the press during his time in Dallas (particularly this year), but I found the following quotation from the Star Telegram very telling about his current attitude (while Nelson has restricted his minutes over the last few games)..."Having gone through some challenging times when he played for Philadelphia and the New Jersey Nets, Shawn Bradley is thankful he is playing for owner Mark Cuban. "Any time someone's in your corner, it makes you feel really good," Bradley said. "The guys that he puts on this team, he really makes you feel like he really wants you to be here. "With a guy like Cuban around, it gives you more confidence to go out on the floor and have more confidence in your abilities."... I think that he will sign a contract for relative market value this Summer(meaning being slightly overpaid in Cuban money), and he will have no problem doing whatever the coaching staff asks of him- whether that is coming off of the bench or starting...

djb
03-05-2001, 04:32 PM
I think we can all agree that Bradley is useful to the Mavs, but we still need to sign someone who's capable of starting at the 5 on a nightly basis. I wouldn't mind re-signing Laettner, but that's still not the answer. We'd just end up with three solid back-up centers.

Evilmav2
03-05-2001, 04:33 PM
MADAPE, I know... When I registered, I looked at icon names and "DEMON" just seemed to call to the nature of the Evilmav. When I previewed the icon I knew it was just meant to be. It would be nice if Sportstalk had those things... It's also nice not having all those darn clones around...

djb
03-05-2001, 04:34 PM
Ya I agree his temperament has improved a great deal the past year or two.

Evilmav2
03-05-2001, 04:38 PM
djbacklash, I have been talking about Antonio Davis all year on Sportstalk... The Raptors might have guaranteed his loss when they sent Mark Jackson packing, and I have had a strong feeling that we would make a real push for him this Summer. I know that we only have our exception this Summer, but where there is a will, there is a way. If anyone can find a way to do it Nellie and Cuban can. Mr.Cuban has also referred to him in the press as someone who we have covetted (along with the usual suspects of last fall, Rahim, Dale Davis, and Mutumbo)...

dallmav
03-05-2001, 05:16 PM
Great to see you here evilmav. I have chatted with you several times over at NBATALK> I wouldnt be suprised to see a couple of sign and trades with this team this summer. Nash, finley and Nowitski wont be involved. I do agree with you that Bradley is the best center that we have and on most nights, he plays pretty well.

Evilmav2
03-05-2001, 05:31 PM
Dallmav, it's good to be here. This site is really impressive... I'll have to take some time away from good old sportstalk if the level of conversation is normally this good- it's also nice not having to listen to all of the stupid Laker fans... Well, hopefully we will put a hurting on Orlando tonight and show Antonio Davis where he should go this Summer. Have a good one...

giostar
03-05-2001, 05:45 PM
I agree there. Go Mavs. Damn the game starts in less than an hour. I hope they have it on at the gym, or Il be catching the end of the game later. Mavs are going for 4 in a row. Im 30% from my prediction coming true! 40% after tonight!

Mavinator
03-05-2001, 05:54 PM
The only guys in the league who Bradley never gets significant minutes against are Shaq, Olajuwon, and a few other of the very best big men in the league... of course those are nightmare matchups for Bradley, but it's not only unfair to say he doesn't contribute against heavy-duty frontcourts- it's blatantly incorrect. If y'all recall, in the late third and early fourth quarter in that last game against the Spurs, Bradley logged a block against Duncan (on the fastbreak, it was a thing of beauty) and two against Robinson on one play. Also notable is that in Bradley's time in that game, we outscored the Spurs 20-7. And some of y'all may disagree, but I would say the Spurs frontcourt is about as heavy-duty as it gets... Consistently, Bradley spurs huge Maverick comebacks by playing on the defensive end, and while less tangible than the contributions of Finley, Dirk, and Nash, they are probably just as important. THAT'S what Bradley brings to the table, night-in, night-out when he gets significant minutes, even against serious contenders, and that's what you'll see more of in the playoffs this year... If Bradley hadn't gotten himself ejected in right when we caught about even on the scoreboard in that game, I'll give you five to one we would have won that game, and Bradley would have been the reason...

Evilmav2
03-05-2001, 05:58 PM
Good to see you Mavinator. I like your choice of icon... I have a feeling the patronage of this site has just recieved a big shot in arm from Sportstalk fans...

FineCubanCigar
03-05-2001, 06:25 PM
Well i understand how us as Mavs fans can look only at the good side of Shawn, but as I have stated earlier, if he is anymore than a backup, our center spot will be a weakness rather than a strength. Hell, Nelson almost gave up on him at the deadline . . . he is the best we've got, but he is by far the weakest link currently on this team. By far. But I have no doubt Cuban won't address our interior weakness in the offseason. The guy never lets us down.

FineCubanCigar
03-05-2001, 06:44 PM
I meant i have no doubt he WILL adress our weakness down low. We just need to get tougher, rougher, and more athletic down there on the blocks, Bradley doesn't even have one of thos qualifications. and please please STOP TRYING TO STICK PER 48 MINUTES STATS INTO THIS!!!!!! he will never, ever, ever play a 48 minute game because of foul trouble and lack of effectiveness.

madape
03-05-2001, 07:32 PM
OK, Cigar., how about this. Bradley has some of the best stats of any center in the league playing less than 30 minutes a game. He is a more effective rebounder and shotblocker while he's on the court than several big name guys. It can be argued that what the Mavs really need, is someone to play the other 18 minutes at center while Bradley is resting. That may be the true weakness of the Mavs. You can insert your banger there if you like.

Mavs#1Fan
03-05-2001, 09:25 PM
I'm not a huge Bradley fan, but I do recognize that he can be a force if used in moderation (18 to 24 minutes a game). What we need a banger with a nasty attitude to play the other minutes.

One thing I do know, a Dirk/Bradley rotation is WAY too soft.

Evilmav2
03-05-2001, 09:38 PM
Mavs#1Fan, I assume you are the same poster who BSes on Sportstalk? It's good to see all of the Sportstalk crew showing up over here... On the subject of Bradley, I have never said that he is the answer at the center position, but that he is a weapon who we can use. He is also the best center on our squad and a darn sight better than what some teams have. hopefully we will be able to make a strong move for Antonio Davis this Summer, or else try to get a guy like Oakley or Jeff Foster (I am not kidding about Foster- he is a tough physical rebounder and defender)... Until then we will just have to try to outscore teams, and live and die by the jumpshot... However, I don't think anyone can argue that our team defense would be better without Bradley on the team- he is our only real shot blocker (with the possible exception of Booth)...

Mavs#1Fan
03-05-2001, 09:47 PM
I'm the same Mavs#1Fan. We really need Antonio Davis bad, Dirk is getting killed at center. I'm really worried about Dirk. In tonite's game he got hammered several times. I'm thinking that opposing teams are trying to get physical with him to take him out of his offensive flow - when's the last time Dirk missed 3 straight FT's?

Evilmav2
03-05-2001, 09:53 PM
Dirk had to be taken out early in the game after he got two fouls... Foul trouble and physical pounding are real good ways to take Dirk out of the game. Dirk needs more upper body strength and weight before he can handle the center postion... It's going to get even worse if Nelson plays him at center against all of the Western playoff powers we are going to face in the next few weeks... You know guys like Divac, Polynice/Ostertag, Shaq, and Sabonis/Kemp/Davis would all love to pound on Dirk in the paint all day...