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LRB
01-05-2003, 04:41 PM
Pacers forward to miss three games for incident after Knicks-Pacers
Indiana's Artest Suspended Three Games, Fined


Artest
NEW YORK, Jan. 4 -- Indiana Pacers forward Ron Artest has been suspended for three games without pay and fined $35,000 for throwing a television monitor to the floor and then taking a camera away from a cameraperson and throwing it to the floor, it was announced today by Stu Jackson, NBA Senior Vice President Basketball Operations.
The incident occurred at the conclusion of the Pacers’ 98-96 loss to the New York Knicks on January 3 at Madison Square Garden.

Artest’s $35,000 fine will be applied to the damages to the equipment and he will begin serving his suspension tonight when the Pacers play at Washington.

LRB
01-05-2003, 04:44 PM
How come he wasn't fined the full amount of the damage? That makes no sense. Last I heard he did over $60,000 damage. Who is funding the other $25,000? Why is Artest? This makes no sense.

southern_sweets
01-05-2003, 04:52 PM
In addition to his NBA fine and suspension, is there any criminal liability? Isn't it a crime to destroy someone else's property whether you are playing NBA basketball or not?

Just211
01-05-2003, 04:58 PM
wouldn't that be compairable to theft? Taking a camera away from someone(Stealing it), and then destroying it? If so, he should be punished by the law, not the NBA. Also, it would be nice to see the Pacers tack on a few extra games to the suspension. That kind of conduct has to be embarassing to the team, and they should set an example. I can't see Cubes letting a Mav get away with that.

LRB
01-05-2003, 05:35 PM
Yes, it is a crime. But I guess it isn't if there are no charges pressed. I'll bet the NBA is paying up to keep charges from being pressed. When means that the fans are in essence paying for Artest's demonstration of his citizenship skills.

realclipsfan
01-05-2003, 05:51 PM
LOL, gimme a break!

LRB
01-05-2003, 06:32 PM
LOL. Gimme a break Artest!

Duh, sure thing. HDTV camera again?

Really, LOL.

Just211
01-05-2003, 06:38 PM
I really don't think there should be charges, but IMO artest should pay for the equipment seperate to the fine.

LRB
01-05-2003, 06:46 PM
Just211: I'll go along with the no filing charges so long as this doesn't get into a repetitve thing. But the fact is that it is criminal be havior. Just because you are a millionaire and an athelete doesn't mean that you should continue to keep getting get out of jail free cards for crimes committed. That was a violent action which if repeated could eventually cause serious damage to a person. I don't think that we should have laws that only apply to people of a certain class. If it had been a plumber who was a fan at the game who did that, most likely there would have been charges filed. Even if the plumber could have paid for the damage. Sure I know a being a plumber is a shitty job (all pun intended, and for all you plumbers I have worked at this job in my younger years), but why should the law apply differently to him than to Artest? Maybe we should just wait until he murders his wife before we decide to charge him. Not that any Pro athelete with anger problems would ever murder their wife or exwife of SO. Never happen. Right?

Drbio
01-05-2003, 06:50 PM
Civil charges can be filed and Artest would be responsible for the cost of the damaged equipment. I guess at least one poster here thinks this kind of crap is ok.

irontoad
01-06-2003, 08:50 AM
moldy orange > ron artest.

Dallas-Maverick
01-06-2003, 12:46 PM
LOL nice irontoad

LRB
01-09-2003, 01:48 AM
Pacers get revenge on Nicks with 89-87 victory sans suspended Ron Artest. Apparently no HDTV cameras were injured after the game.

BrianJ
01-09-2003, 04:33 AM
I agree with all of you who say that artest is a worthless human being who should be imprisoned to a life of having his eyelids taped open and forced to watch "30 Something" reruns That is not even a question that is open for debate. But myself being unfortunate enough to be from " the land of Lincoln" I can say without a doubt that he would be a fan favorite in Dallas if he were traded. Even if for some ethical and moral reasoning the fans rightfully booed him. His teamates would defintely love him. Lay down in traffic for him love him. I saw the game last year in which the big Ignoranous took a swing at Miller after the play was over. Immediately afterwards Artest and Fizer were to his aid to do battle with the 650 pound beast. You could tell that the thought of being eaten alive by the baboon or the fact that they were only playing a stupid game for money never even crossed their mind. Cock and balls were the only things that drove them to stand up to the Grim Reaper. So you can say what you like about Artest being fined more heavily then he was. And I agree with you. But he is defenitely the kind of character that you can respect as a teamate and also a player that will build confidence and championship rings in an organization.

ArcticBlast
01-09-2003, 07:54 AM
<< But he is defenitely the kind of character that you can respect as a teamate and also a player that will build confidence and championship rings in an organization. >>


I'm sorry, but what I've seen of him including the Shaq incident, he just seems like a guy who likes to be involved in trouble and the team right now is a team that encourages that sort of childish behavior.

LRB
01-09-2003, 11:12 AM
what AB said.

Chiwas
01-09-2003, 11:26 AM
Somebody said last night in the sports news that the fine was too high (?) and they (maybe the team) were going to ask for a reduction. Ironic.

OutletPass
01-09-2003, 11:55 AM
Actually, Chi...the NBA Player's Association is going to bat for him. They're trying to get the fine reduced.

LRB
01-09-2003, 12:13 PM
<< Actually, Chi...the NBA Player's Association is going to bat for him. They're trying to get the fine reduced. >>



Yeah, these are the same people who went to bat about Sprewell being unfairly sanctioned for choking his coach. Gotta keep the league from picking on these Poor and Innocent players. It is grossly unfair to hold them anywhere close to the standards for ordinary people. Pro Atheletes the Gentry of the new millinnium.

MavsManiac
01-09-2003, 12:27 PM
Hmm... have any of y'all read &quot;The Punch&quot;? The story/afterstory of Kermit Washington decking Rudy Tomjanovic in 1977? I'm only about 50 pages into the thing so far, but reading about the &quot;Enforcers&quot; that existed back then in a league where fights broke out on the court with regularity like Hockey Games, makes me glad things have changed a bit. Kermit was Kareem's protector at the time...

It's guys like Artest who remind me of these &quot;ugly&quot; days of the NBA, when fans stayed away in droves &amp; TV contracts were few &amp; far between.

Are these guys we really want to see in the NBA?

I agree with some others who have commented that the fine was too LOW, not too HIGH. You'd think the Players association would be trying to discourage punk behavior. I guess not...

OutletPass
01-09-2003, 12:52 PM
It's a great read...and I sent a copy to Chiwas about 10 days ago...highly, highly recommended. Thanks for bringing it up MM !

I may be alone in my view...but Artest committed a criminal act...and it should have been pursued. Sorry, but if I do that to your property...the police are after me with a warrant.

Big Boy Laroux
01-09-2003, 01:10 PM
you are not alone in your view, outlet.

what would happen if i caused $60,000 dollars of damage? I'd be responsible for it.

LRB
01-09-2003, 02:07 PM
<< You'd think the Players association would be trying to discourage punk behavior. I guess not... >>



MM: sad to say it seems that in stead of trying to best promote the game in a way to help the most players, the players association has an agenda of trying to remove all accountability from players for their actions. What they don't realize is if successful that this tactic will come back to take a huge bite out of all players asses. But the people running the players association aren't exactly nobel prize material. In fact I doubt that they could score high enough on the SAT to get into a community college. Just see the trend worsening with dumbass players like Artest. I think all players with thug syndrome should be given a strong message, shape up or ship out. Just don't see it happening anytime soon.

BrianJ
01-09-2003, 03:25 PM
Woo man, Let me apologize for my first 12 pack post on this board. I did not mean to praise artest. That was the last thing I was trying to say. Kick him out, fine him heavy, any of these choices would be fine. The last thing you want to see is this attitude spread even more through the NBA. All I was trying to say is that he would fit in any clubhouse. The fact that he is a thug or not, or even if you disllike his personality as a teamate. The fact that he is fearless and willing to stand up for his teamates, I feel would be great for building confidence on a team like this. We have eddie and raja but they are not going to strike fear in the heart of anyone. NVE is definetely a thug, but I can see him hiding under the bleachers in a time of need. All I meant was that he would be good player on this team. Not that he should not be punished.

LRB
01-09-2003, 03:38 PM
Brian: couldn't disagree with you more on this one. I think Artest would be the worst thing for this or any team. He is a punk. He is a stupid player which is not what is needed on a cerebreal team like the Mavs. We need smart not stupid players. We need players who are tough, not ones who are punks. Artest is not tough. He is just a stupid punk. Nothing more. Dirk is tough. Shows it every off season in his dedication to improve his game. Showed it when his tooth got knocked out and he returned to finish the game strong. What would punk ass stupid Artest have done if his tooth got knocked out? He would have gotten his punk ass thrown out of the game and suspended for throwing a punch and destroying an HDTV camera on the way. That is not what we need. You cannot depend on a player like him. He may be great one game and totally worthless the next 3.

Eddie is tough. You can depend on Eddie. He brings it every night. Nash is tough. He continues to drive into the heart of the defense and get the shit knocked out of him without breaking any HDTV cameras or getting any suspension. I repeat, the last thing this team needs in a dumbass punk like Artest. If Isaih Thomas was more than half a coach and half a man he would take Artest out back and lay the law down to him. Problem is Isaiah is part punk ass player to.

BrianJ
01-09-2003, 03:56 PM
I don't think we disagree on this by that much. I agree with most of the negative comments u make about him. I defenitely believe that all the mavs you mentioned have a ton of heart and courage. Which are characteristics that you are really born with you do not just aquire. I also believe that Artest is a waste of space on this earth and he would bring alot of negativity to this team . But I disagree that he would not help them win. I would hate to see us have to go this route just in order to win a championship. I would rather have them finish last in the league, but if you are saying that he would not be a good addition for us in the win loss column. I got to definitely disagree with u.

LRB
01-09-2003, 04:07 PM
Brian: I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. While there might be games a player like Artest would help us win, I feel that he would hurt us far more often than help us. He is the type of player that can destroy a championship team, from within. Look at Rasheed for Portland. How many big games have his antics cost the Jail Blazers. And he is very cool headed when compared to Artest. Plus I don't think Artest could last a month with Nellie. He'd be lucky if he could just work his way up to the doghouse. Don't think you'd see him play much at all. Nellie has little tolerance for fools.

Now I'll grant you that if Artest ever pulls his head out of his ass and grows a brain, he could be a very good addition to any team. He has to learn to play basketball 1st. Something which he hasn't demonstrated to me that he knows how to do.

BrianJ
01-09-2003, 04:17 PM
You are probably right about him never even making it into Nellies doghouse. But for some reason Nellie likes Spree alot. Who I believe is the exact opposite of the kind of player that artest is. Spree reminds me alot of NVE attitude wise. But Nellie must be the real Zen master because I figured NVE would have already done something stupid by now. I am with you that we have to agree to disagree. But I see where you are coming from.

ArcticBlast
01-09-2003, 04:38 PM
<< Are these guys we really want to see in the NBA?

It's guys like Artest who remind me of these &quot;ugly&quot; days of the NBA, when fans stayed away in droves &amp; TV contracts were few &amp; far between. >>


Personally, I hate that sort of player in the NBA. However, it will take another incident like what happened to Rudy for the league to actually do anything about players like Artest. Violence is good for ratings. Look at the Lakers/Kings game on ABC. That was a rematch of last year's WCFs, two teams with a lot of reasons to need the win, yet all we heard about was the fight that broke out between the teams. They must have shown that clip ten times before the game started. You'd think it was a WWF match.

LRB
01-09-2003, 04:40 PM
AB: I take it you're not a big proponent of the mavs addiing &quot;The Rock&quot; as a Free Agent? i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif

BrianJ
01-09-2003, 05:08 PM
great call LRB. The &quot;rock&quot; would be very interesting here

Trinity
01-10-2003, 05:56 PM
Do you people have any clue? Is Ron Artest crazy, probably, dirty thug, hell no! Artest is the type of player the Mavs and fellow softees the Kings need. You guys play no defence, the only player you have with some balls is greaseball hippie Nash. Where are you people coming from bashing Artest, I mean this guy is no Kenyon Martin or Rodman. He goes nuts occasionally, but you don't see him taking swings at people like Big Stupidity. Your wanna-be tough guy Najara is basically an Artest clone without the basketball skills of Ronnie. NVE is a thug, has any player aged faster than Van Exel. You guys will wish you had a player like Artest when Big Stupidity scums his Lakers into the playoffs and he beats up on Bradley and Dirk on his way to a sweep of the Mavs in the first round. Hate to tell you but Nelson(brilliant coach IMO) would probably trade any Mav besides Dirk or hippie for Artest in a heartbeat. Well just wait and see, hope to meet you guys in the finals, just sticking up for one of the boys, remember the Pacers are just a bunch of kids, except for Uncle Reggie, and yes Zeke is a Shi!!y coach. Good luck, I love Mark Cuban, gotta stand up to the crooked ass refs like Dick &quot;the Knick&quot; Bavetta.

LRB
01-10-2003, 11:25 PM
Trinity: Don't know what rock you crawled out from under, but when you go back take that stupid punk ass criminal Artest with you. There is no room for somebody that studpid on this team. His basketball IQ is lower than Forest Gump's. Nellie has no patients for fools, and that is exactly what Artest is. If he would just play physical but smart and not go out and break multiple laws I wouldn't have much of a problem with him. But don't think he has what it takes to turn his life around. I hope he does or he's headed for an early violent grave or prision. But even if he avoids these 2 ends, I don't want him on my team. He is a liability waiting for a place to happen.

And comparing him to Eddie is about the dumbest piece of crap that I have ever heard in my life, and I've heard some good ones. Eddie playes hard and smart. If Eddie's had a flagrant foul, I certainly don't remember it. With Eddie its all about doing what it takes to win, not beating the shit out of some HDTV camera. IF I had 100 picks, I'd trade them all to get Eddie before I'd waste one on Artest. And your observation about the Mavs not having any balls is full of shit. They all have them and most are the brass variety. Dirk is 10 times the man Artest could ever hope to be. Artest is a whiny little baby who just flat out can't take it without losing his emotions. Dirk can dish it out and take it. But he comes to PLAY not show what a wanna be bad ass ganster he is. Tell Ronnie &quot;The Baby&quot; Artest to grow up and become a man. Then come back and talk to me about him being tough. Until then, he just a dumb punk ass thug. Hope the Mavs play the Pacers in the Finals. Be good to beat the bunch of pussies. Becaus that's all bullies are when stood up to. The Mavs sure as hell aren't going to back down.

OutletPass
01-10-2003, 11:32 PM
Second that LRB...haven't seen this board screaming that we need to trade for that psycho...Trinity's got some serious holes in his game.

Now, Artest and CWebb in a cell together...that's a thought.

&quot;Hippie&quot;...got to chuckle at your marvelous insult, Trinity. Yuck, Yuck, Yuck, Yuck, Yuck.

LRB
01-10-2003, 11:46 PM
<< Now, Artest and CWebb in a cell together...that's a thought. >>



I was rather hoping for a Artest/Miller tag team cage match against Rasheed/Bonzi on WWF Payper view. Of cource they'd have to put the HDTV camera in its on locked cage. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

LRB
01-11-2003, 02:23 PM
INDIANAPOLIS -- The NBA Players Association filed an appeal Wednesday on behalf of Pacers forward Ron Artest, who was suspended for three games without pay and fined $35,000 for hurling a television monitor and smashing a camera after a loss in New York.


The Players Association called the penalty &quot;both excessive and improper,'' spokesman Dan Wasserman said.


Artest stormed off the court after the Pacers' 98-96 loss to the Knicks on Friday night. As he walked to the locker room, he grabbed a TV monitor and threw it, then approached a cameraman, yanked the $100,000 high-definition camera away from him and smashed it to the floor.


The league said the $35,000 fine would be applied to the equipment damages. Wasserman said since the outburst occurred off the court, the appeal should be heard by an arbitrator. On-court suspensions have to be appealed to commissioner David Stern.


Artest did not play in a loss at Washington on Saturday or a victory at Philadelphia on Monday. After Indiana's game against the Knicks on Wednesday night, he is expected to return for Friday night's game at Orlando.


The appeal would not affect the missed games, only the fine and the lost salary, which is about $21,000 a game, Wasserman said.

ScottM
01-11-2003, 02:56 PM
LRB you may be a good and well liked poster here at this forum but you are showing alot of ignorance with this topic and you are not coming off as a quality poster to anyone who see's this topic as your only posting. I suggest you make your reply to this if you want to, but then please refrain from talking about players you don't know much about and stick with your Mavericks and other players you like.

I'm not telling you to do this it is just a suggestion.

LRB
01-11-2003, 03:43 PM
<< LRB you may be a good and well liked poster here at this forum but you are showing alot of ignorance with this topic and you are not coming off as a quality poster to anyone who see's this topic as your only posting. I suggest you make your reply to this if you want to, but then please refrain from talking about players you don't know much about and stick with your Mavericks and other players you like.

I'm not telling you to do this it is just a suggestion. >>



Hmmm. Scott at last count I have over 600 postings. My postings on Artest are much less than 50, so the odds are this won't be seen as my only posting, unless it is by some very ignorant person.

And if you don't like me talking about players who I don't like, just don't visit the board any more. As for looking ignorant, check out your bathroom mirror buddy.

ScottM
01-11-2003, 03:52 PM
I know you don't have much post on Artest, you can post about poeple you don't like but you appear to not know much about Artest at all and you are coming off all wrong about him. Just like when poeple try to make fun of Dirk or Nash cause of their long hair and say they are soft. Dirk is not as soft as some &quot;ignorant&quot; people say he is, you and I know that. Just like you look at the negatives in Artest some may look at your travesty of posting in this thread and not you intelligent postings in other threads. Sorry if I worded my first post in this topic to offend you.

LRB
01-11-2003, 04:13 PM
<< I know you don't have much post on Artest, you can post about poeple you don't like but you appear to not know much about Artest at all and you are coming off all wrong about him. Just like when poeple try to make fun of Dirk or Nash cause of their long hair and say they are soft. Dirk is not as soft as some &quot;ignorant&quot; people say he is, you and I know that. Just like you look at the negatives in Artest some may look at your travesty of posting in this thread and not you intelligent postings in other threads. Sorry if I worded my first post in this topic to offend you. >>



Scott, you're right I don't know tons of intimate details about Artest. I'm not best buddies with him, nor do I want to be. What I do know is that he is an emotional powder keg. I've seen this by watching games where he has played and exploded. By reading articles about him by people who know him better than I do. What I know is I hate to see players who display behavior like Artest exist in the NBA. So I write about that on this forum. I think Ron Artest is bad for the game of basket ball. I think David Stern allowing thug ball to continue is bad. The NFL which is a contact sport out lawed coverage like Artest uses. Now you top off his over the top physical play by his falilure to control his temper and emotions and that is sad. He has broken the law numerous times and has gotten trival penalties compared to what you or I would have received.

So if writing about this is a travesty, sue me. I feel passionate about this subject and feel the need to speak up and be heard. BTW I'm not alone.

So what about you? Do you condone the criminal actions of atheletes simply because they are big sports stars? Do you promote displaying and sanctioning violence to America's youth? What moral standards do you have? Do you want to work with someone like Ron Artest? If he tried half the stuff he does where I work he would be fired and then prosecuted in that order. A lot of kids watch and follow the NBA. What message about the rule of law are we sending them?

BTW the Mavs had a guy like Artest by the name of Leon Smith. Great physical skills and wonderful potential. But little to no ability to control their emotions. Can't say as I miss old Leon.

I'm not just trying to make fun of Artest. No I use humor to make a point. So head your own advice and don't post about someone you don't know, and you don't know me. BTW you have yet to make even the smallest case as to why my postings could be considered a &quot;travesty&quot; other than you do like them. But then again I'm not out to win your approval. I'm stating a point that I feel very passionate about. If you disagree with that point fine, diagree with it. I'm not here to have everyone like me, I'm not a politician. Just an average guy posting his opinions. And in my opinion, Ron Artest is bad for the NBA.

ScottM
01-11-2003, 04:29 PM
No I don't feel he should just get off the hook. This kind of thing happens all the time in the NBA. Charles Barkley said Artest received to big a penalty. John Salley said he had seen much worse stuff without players being fined or suspended at all, just that Artest was caught on camera and the NBA had to do something. I don't beleive all the Mavs are angels. Nick Van Exel isn't exactly a good role-model. The Pacers are not thugs as you think, the Media took this Bad Boy thing and they are running with it. Ron Artest is tough, tougher than any player on the Mavs. He is not a bully, he playes physical defense and he may intimadate, but if he was fouling everybody he would be called for it and foul out definetely now with his bad image. Image can be a very bad thing.
Image has the Pacers as Bad Boys, the Mavs as soft and scared of the Lakers, Jason Kidd is now shown as a great family guy despite the fact he beat his wife while in Pheonix. Forget image and lets just focus on Basketball. Let the Judicial system handle the bad people.

Chiwas
01-11-2003, 04:59 PM
<< I don't beleive all the Mavs are angels. >>

Are or aren´t? Please decide soon, I don´t have too much time to wait your final point.


<< You guys play no defence >>

Dallas is the 10th best defense in the NBA, Indiana the 16th. You´re striked out, pointless, clueless.

Team Points Scored Points Allowed
1 Detroit 90 86.5
2 Denver 80.7 88.3
3 Houston 91.4 88.6
4 Miami 85 88.6
5 San Antonio 92.8 88.8
6 New Jersey 97.9 89.3
7 Phoenix 91.7 90.3
8 Portland 92.1 90.6
9 Washington 92.5 91
10 Dallas 102.9 91.2
11 Utah 96.2 91.4
12 Sacramento 99.9 91.9
13 New Orleans 94.3 92.6
14 Seattle 92.6 92.9
15 Philadelphia 93.7 93.4
16 Indiana 98.6 93.7

David
01-11-2003, 06:00 PM
Indiana's 'scariest player' back on court Friday

By John Denton
FLORIDA TODAY

ORLANDO -- The significance of Ron Artest's courtside seat at the TD Waterhouse Centre on Friday morning was lost on the Indiana forward. Back with the Pacers after serving a three-game suspension for throwing a television set and a camera, Artest sat just a foot or so away from the TV monitor that Tim Hardaway fired across the court 10 months ago.

&quot;I couldn't imagine doing it in front of all of these people,&quot; joked Artest, referring to Hardaway's incident in Orlando last March. &quot;At least mine was behind closed doors.&quot;

Artest was fined $35,000 and suspended three games following his postgame tirade in a 98-96 loss in New York on Jan. 3. Just weeks earlier, he had been fined $10,000 for bumping Dallas' Raja Bell.

He returned to the Pacers' starting lineup on the same day that he appeared on the cover of ESPN The Magazine. Artest said that he liked the story, but didn't much care for the cover headline declaring him to be &quot;the scariest player in the NBA.&quot;

&quot;Other players in the league don't think of me as the scariest player,&quot; he said. &quot;They sure don't back down from me.&quot;

Artest recently has started seeing a psychiatrist in hopes of better controlling his anger. But he said he's afraid to temper his emotional fire too much on the court because it's part of the reason he has become a candidate to win the NBA's Defensive Player of the Year award.

&quot;I like challenges, and if guys are going to rise to the challenge I've just got to rise right back at them,&quot; he said. &quot;How I play is how everybody in this league plays. Imagine Tracy (McGrady) not playing with fire. He probably just doesn't show it the same way I do. I'm just a bit more expressive.&quot;

McGrady has nothing but compliments for Artest, who held him to just 13 points in November.

&quot;He's definitely one of the top five defenders in the league,&quot; McGrady said. &quot;I think he might be the strongest guy that's ever guarded me. And he moves his feet so well and contests every shot.&quot; ...

OutletPass
01-11-2003, 06:11 PM
ScottM...Frankly, I don't care what Charles Barkley or Kenny Smith or John Salley or anyone else says...the fact remains, Ron Artest committed a criminal act. I would love for you to argue that one with ME. The fact that he was not prosecuted speaks to the &quot;politics&quot; of the situation rather than to the act itself. I'll be happy to go through the Penal Code in order to enlighten you.

And as for &quot;quality&quot; posts...please direct me to yours.

Sincerely,

Outlet Pass
Former Assistant District Attorney
Dallas, Tx.

ArcticBlast
01-11-2003, 07:10 PM
Oh, come on, guys. You know we're all just jealous because he don't have a big, strong, tough man like Artest on the team so that if Shaq slaps someone in the ear or an evil camera attacks one of our players he can gallently gallop to our rescue. We're stuck with whimpy ol' Dirk and Steve &quot;the hippie&quot; Nash and Finley. ;_; It's just not fair.

You know, the first time I saw the Pacers play the Mavs this year, I hadn't really heard this bad boy thing you refer to as a media creation. And I thought just as little of their thugish play as I do now.

Also please get with the right season. This is 02-03 and the Mavericks are tenth in the league at defence. They've even won some games in which they scored less than 90 pts. I know that Barkley says that the Mavs are soft and don't play D, but, contrary to popular belief, Barkley is not always right.

For the record, if a Mav commited a criminal act such as Artest did, I would not only be ashamed but would hope that he would be treated as any regular person and punished as the law sees fit for his actions.

ScottM
01-11-2003, 07:40 PM
I said nothing the Mavs defense I don't know where you got that from Chiwas.

I said nothing negative about any of the Mavericks, I said their image was they're soft.

I take it none of you are Cowboys fans.

LRB
01-11-2003, 08:01 PM
<< No I don't feel he should just get off the hook. This kind of thing happens all the time in the NBA. Charles Barkley said Artest received to big a penalty. John Salley said he had seen much worse stuff without players being fined or suspended at all, just that Artest was caught on camera and the NBA had to do something. I don't beleive all the Mavs are angels. Nick Van Exel isn't exactly a good role-model. The Pacers are not thugs as you think, the Media took this Bad Boy thing and they are running with it. Ron Artest is tough, tougher than any player on the Mavs. He is not a bully, he playes physical defense and he may intimadate, but if he was fouling everybody he would be called for it and foul out definetely now with his bad image. Image can be a very bad thing.
Image has the Pacers as Bad Boys, the Mavs as soft and scared of the Lakers, Jason Kidd is now shown as a great family guy despite the fact he beat his wife while in Pheonix. Forget image and lets just focus on Basketball. Let the Judicial system handle the bad people. >>



Scott: You do little to help yourself with you continued posts, but thanks for the assist.



<< This kind of thing happens all the time in the NBA. >>

O really? And just who are the players who have done anywhere near $600,000 dollars damage this year in a temper tantrum after the game? If it happens all the time surely you should be able to name at least 4 others so we can have an milicious destruction of property all star team. I'll even thrown in last season to help you out. I'm waiting.



<< John Salley said he had seen much worse stuff without players being fined or suspended at all, just that Artest was caught on camera and the NBA had to do something. >>

Just how stupid are you and John Salley. The man did over $60,000 dollars damage and was only fined $35,000. Yeah, OJ probably committed murder, but wasn't caught on camera doing it. So what? Is that an excuse to go out on committ murder? What a lame ass asnwer. Not like Jonh Salley has ever been confused for a genius either. In case your math skills are disfuntional, there is still $25,000 of damage that Ron &quot;The Raging ExBull&quot; has yet to be held accountable for? Why should he NOT have to pay for that? Because Dirk failed to help an old lady cross the street Friday afternoon before the game? I guess you are of the old school that 2 wrongs make a right?



<< Nick Van Exel isn't exactly a good role-model. >>

OK, exactly what has Nick done since becoming a Mav that is soooo bad? You're right in that the Mavs are no Angels. The Angels are a baseball team in California, the Mavs are the BEST team in the NBA this seaons. Oh, you meant they aren't perfect. Well that is a dumbass statement. Who is perfect. O gee someone committs murder but we let them off because one of the jurors had an overdue library book in 1978. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah the Mavs aren't perfect, but I haven't heard any reports of criminal activity by them either. I could care less about image. Unless you're talking about the images on TV of someone committing a felony, yeah what he did was a felony not a misdmenor. I can see that you really believe in the rule of law. I guess you would just like us to do away with all laws and live in anarchy? Or rather just make all atheletes above the law?



<< Artest is tough, tougher than any player on the Mavs. >>

you're entitled to your opinion on this one. Though I notice that you failed to provide any evidence to back up your point as I have with my posts. Being big and strong and easily losing your temper DOES NOT make you tough in my book. BTW some definitions of tough:

1. Able to withstand great strain without tearing or breaking. - Artest repeatly cracks up under strain.

2. Inclined to violent or disruptive behavior; rowdy or rough. - OK got to give it to Artest on this one, but don't know if I'd consider this definition a complement.

3. violent and lawless. - See #2's response above.

4. who learned to fight in the streets rather than being formally trained in the sport of boxing - Sorry, appears that Artest fails on this one. His dad, a Golden Gloves Boxing champion, put the gloves on him as a tike and started to formally teach him boxing. See Link (http://espn.go.com/magazine/vol6no02artest.html)

5. an aggressive young criminal - Again see #2's respons above

6. a cruel and brutal fellow - Again see #2's respons above

7. Strong-minded; resolute - Sorry anybody constantly loosing their temper and getting thrown out of games and suspended I can't label as strong-minded.

So I guess it depends on how you define &quot;tough&quot; as to whether Artest is tough.



<< Let the Judicial system handle the bad people >>

If only it would in Artest's case. Unfortunately the judicial system has been circumvented by the political system. So since we live in a democracy with freedom of speach, I'm doing my part as a good and loyal citizen to address this. After all a lot of people died to give me this right, the least I could do is try to use it responsibly. So if you don't like it. Move to North Korea or some other place where you don't have to worry about people speaking their minds.

LRB
01-11-2003, 08:06 PM
<< take it none of you are Cowboys fans. >>



Yep, I'm a big Cowboys fan. And want to see every one of those players and explayers prosecuted for any violations of the law. Would like to have seen Michael Irving thrown off the team after his cocaine episode. Glad Nate Newton is in Jail. I wish to hell Jerry Jones had had the balls to clean this crap up earlier. Some people like Mark Tunei might still be alive today.

Don't try and pull that homer shit on me. I don't want criminals on my teams period. And I was fairly pissed and vocal about some of the soft treatment a lot of the Cowboys got.

ScottM
01-11-2003, 08:16 PM
<<

<< No I don't feel he should just get off the hook. This kind of thing happens all the time in the NBA. Charles Barkley said Artest received to big a penalty. John Salley said he had seen much worse stuff without players being fined or suspended at all, just that Artest was caught on camera and the NBA had to do something. I don't beleive all the Mavs are angels. Nick Van Exel isn't exactly a good role-model. The Pacers are not thugs as you think, the Media took this Bad Boy thing and they are running with it. Ron Artest is tough, tougher than any player on the Mavs. He is not a bully, he playes physical defense and he may intimadate, but if he was fouling everybody he would be called for it and foul out definetely now with his bad image. Image can be a very bad thing.
Image has the Pacers as Bad Boys, the Mavs as soft and scared of the Lakers, Jason Kidd is now shown as a great family guy despite the fact he beat his wife while in Pheonix. Forget image and lets just focus on Basketball. Let the Judicial system handle the bad people. >>



Scott: You do little to help yourself with you continued posts, but thanks for the assist.



<< This kind of thing happens all the time in the NBA. >>

O really? And just who are the players who have done anywhere near $600,000 dollars damage this year in a temper tantrum after the game? If it happens all the time surely you should be able to name at least 4 others so we can have an milicious destruction of property all star team. I'll even thrown in last season to help you out. I'm waiting.



<< John Salley said he had seen much worse stuff without players being fined or suspended at all, just that Artest was caught on camera and the NBA had to do something. >>

Just how stupid are you and John Salley. The man did over $60,000 dollars damage and was only fined $35,000. Yeah, OJ probably committed murder, but wasn't caught on camera doing it. So what? Is that an excuse to go out on committ murder? What a lame ass asnwer. Not like Jonh Salley has ever been confused for a genius either. In case your math skills are disfuntional, there is still $25,000 of damage that Ron &quot;The Raging ExBull&quot; has yet to be held accountable for? Why should he NOT have to pay for that? Because Dirk failed to help an old lady cross the street Friday afternoon before the game? I guess you are of the old school that 2 wrongs make a right?



<< Nick Van Exel isn't exactly a good role-model. >>

OK, exactly what has Nick done since becoming a Mav that is soooo bad? You're right in that the Mavs are no Angels. The Angels are a baseball team in California, the Mavs are the BEST team in the NBA this seaons. Oh, you meant they aren't perfect. Well that is a dumbass statement. Who is perfect. O gee someone committs murder but we let them off because one of the jurors had an overdue library book in 1978. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah the Mavs aren't perfect, but I haven't heard any reports of criminal activity by them either. I could care less about image. Unless you're talking about the images on TV of someone committing a felony, yeah what he did was a felony not a misdmenor. I can see that you really believe in the rule of law. I guess you would just like us to do away with all laws and live in anarchy? Or rather just make all atheletes above the law?



<< Artest is tough, tougher than any player on the Mavs. >>

you're entitled to your opinion on this one. Though I notice that you failed to provide any evidence to back up your point as I have with my posts. Being big and strong and easily losing your temper DOES NOT make you tough in my book. BTW some definitions of tough:

1. Able to withstand great strain without tearing or breaking. - Artest repeatly cracks up under strain.

2. Inclined to violent or disruptive behavior; rowdy or rough. - OK got to give it to Artest on this one, but don't know if I'd consider this definition a complement.

3. violent and lawless. - See #2's response above.

4. who learned to fight in the streets rather than being formally trained in the sport of boxing - Sorry, appears that Artest fails on this one. His dad, a Golden Gloves Boxing champion, put the gloves on him as a tike and started to formally teach him boxing. See Link (http://espn.go.com/magazine/vol6no02artest.html)

5. an aggressive young criminal - Again see #2's respons above

6. a cruel and brutal fellow - Again see #2's respons above

7. Strong-minded; resolute - Sorry anybody constantly loosing their temper and getting thrown out of games and suspended I can't label as strong-minded.

So I guess it depends on how you define &quot;tough&quot; as to whether Artest is tough.



<< Let the Judicial system handle the bad people >>

If only it would in Artest's case. Unfortunately the judicial system has been circumvented by the political system. So since we live in a democracy with freedom of speach, I'm doing my part as a good and loyal citizen to address this. After all a lot of people died to give me this right, the least I could do is try to use it responsibly. So if you don't like it. Move to North Korea or some other place where you don't have to worry about people speaking their minds. >>

uuuhhhh.......your mom i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

LRB
01-11-2003, 08:26 PM
<< uuuhhhh.......your mom i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif >>



Scott: you get 1 get out of jail free card for mentioning my mom since you put a smile after it. Consider the card used.

BTW try to be a little more cognicient of your statements. I posted to last nights game thread that my mom became very ill at the game. This is not the best day to make a statement like that.

Again, I'm taking it as a joke this time.

ScottM
01-11-2003, 08:34 PM
sorry about that LRB. I was just joking because I don't have a comeback. I didn't see that she was ill, hopefully she gets better, I wish her and you well.

Sorry for bothering you guys

LRB
01-11-2003, 08:42 PM
Not a problem Scott. I did take it as a joke. She is getting better, and thanks for asking about her.

Again, the subject that you broached is just one that I am extremely passionate about. So please don't take personally my arguments.

And if Artest can turn it around and get his head straight, I'll be very happy and will gladly get off his back. I'm quiet sure there will he another head case popping up somewhere, just hopefully not on the Cowboys again. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

Chiwas
01-11-2003, 09:28 PM
<< I said nothing the Mavs defense I don't know where you got that from Chiwas.

I said nothing negative about any of the Mavericks, I said their image was they're soft. >>



Scott, you should change your face (icon), cause is same as trinity's. Get your part of my message, ignore the rest. Keep posting; I like people who is concerned about his rivals' feelings.

ScottM
01-11-2003, 10:19 PM
I know some of my points did not make sense or where not good points in the first place, but I just had to stick up for Artest he is a very good player and hopefully the anger management classes, he is now taking, can change his temper problem (without him losing his defensive agressivness)

Trinity
01-12-2003, 06:49 PM
Hey you guys stereotype Artest as dirty, I'm gonna call your players soft. Artest will be all-defensive first team and Al Harrington will be second team. Your gonna win titles with defence, it's the yr. 2003 not 1983. High scoring may win alot of games during the season but when it comes time to grind it out in the playoffs, you need tough, physical defenders. I'm no fan of Zeke or the old Piston teams but they did change the face of the NBA. Every team needs a player like Artest to lock up the the high scoring 2s and 3s in the league. You gotta remember Artest is only 23 yrs. old. Jordan wanted the Wizards to pick this guy up and ranked him and Harrington as the two toughest defenders he's faced since his comeback, and you basketball experts are talking about how bad the kid is for the game. You guys need to watch a few more Pacer games. Artest is wild and high strung, but there is not a team in the league that would'nt want the guy. Hopefully we meet in the finals so you can watch him shut Finley down as the Pacers win their first NBA championship. Feel free to come on over to the star.com message boards to talk hoops, Indiana people know basketball. Whatever happened to Roy Tarpley?

LRB
01-12-2003, 07:18 PM
<< Hey you guys stereotype Artest as dirty >>



Not me. I don't steortype him at all. I just call him a criminal, because he commits crimes. He's more out of control than just dirty. Mental basket case might be a better description.



<< High scoring may win alot of games during the season but when it comes time to grind it out in the playoffs, you need tough, physical defenders. >>


Depends on your definition of tough. See some of my earlier threads for definitions. Artest doesn't come close to meeting a good definition for tough. He is very weak-minded. Little to no self-control.



<< you basketball experts are talking about how bad the kid is for the game. >>



I know a lot about basketball, but I'd never call myself an expert. Just a knowledgeable fan. Artests skills, and he does have some limited ones, are not what makes him bad for the game. It is the thuggery that he brings. The Pistons were bad for the game for the same reason. The game is less entertaining and less family oriented with players playing the way Artest and some of the other thugs on the Pacers and around the league play. If you can't do it with skill, get out of the game. And MJ hasn't proven anything to me as a GM. He's a great player, but his team is struggling in the Leastern conference.



<< there is not a team in the league that would'nt want the guy. >>

No place for him own our roster. We've learned our lessons.





<< Hopefully we meet in the finals >>

That would be nice. Maybe we can slam the door on thug ball. Just be sure to bring it, because the Mavs definitely will. Just remember in the finals you don't get to play us on the 2nd night of a back to back and the team with the best record has home court advantage. I saw how much you appreciated the AAC last time you were there.



<< High scoring may win alot of games during the season but when it comes time to grind it out in the playoffs, you need tough, physical defenders. >>

The team that scores the most points alwasys wins. Playoffs or regular season. Defenders are nice when you're trying to protect a lead, but you have to have guys who can put the pumkin through the hoop to get a lead. Nice thing about the Mavs is we have both. Up tempo, slow tempo, physical, tough defense or no we just keep winning. Pacers should try it some time. BTW the view is real good up here at the top of the standings.

And Roy Tarpley. He made the NBA all time dumbass team. Looks like Artest might be joining him soon.

OutletPass
01-12-2003, 07:46 PM
Thanks for the invitation Trinity...but I can live without visiting the Pacers board...not sure why you think I'd be interested in the first place...Since I don't feel any need to go on other teams' boards and talk smack.

Epitome22
01-12-2003, 09:18 PM
<<

<< [i] >>



Not me. I don't steortype him at all. I just call him a criminal, because he commits crimes. He's more out of control than just dirty. Mental basket case might be a better description.

(E) This is the truth, Artest may be crazier than fox on acid but he is no thug.




<< >>


(E)Depends on your definition of tough. See some of my earlier threads for definitions. Artest doesn't come close to meeting a good definition for tough. He is very weak-minded. Little to no self-control.

(E)Regardless of whether he is mentally tough, he is most certainly physically tough. He's a frightening combination of strength and quickness, his body is like a compact wall of bricks plus I heard he used to box so I'm sure that didn't hurt.



<< >>



I know a lot about basketball, but I'd never call myself an expert. Just a knowledgeable fan. Artests skills, and he does have some limited ones, are not what makes him bad for the game. It is the thuggery that he brings. The Pistons were bad for the game for the same reason. The game is less entertaining and less family oriented with players playing the way Artest and some of the other thugs on the Pacers and around the league play. If you can't do it with skill, get out of the game. And MJ hasn't proven anything to me as a GM. He's a great player, but his team is struggling in the Leastern conference.

(E) First of all Artest's skills are hardly limited, he can put the ball on the floor,get to the basket and he's developed quite a serviceable jumpshot over the last 2 years, he's hitting 3s fairly regularly now. Second, as I said before, Artest may be crazy and out of control but a thug he is not, his reputation for being a tough defender doesen't stem from thuggish acts like the ones Kenyon Martin indulges in, he's most certainly physical but that stems from his tenaciousness on defense combined witrh his exceptional physical strength. He doesen't throw elbows or take cheap shots at people. I'm not saying there isn't a thuggish element to the Pacers, there most certainly is with Tinsley, O'Neal and Miller, but Artest is no thug. Even if Artest did insulge in Thuggery, hardly credible means to say he should get out of the game, Dirty play is part of the game and there has hardly been a superstar in this league the last 15 years who hasn't indulged in it. Guys like Gary Payton and Scottie Pippen could most certainly check opponents on skill and athleticism alone, but they still engaged in Dirty play, subtle elbows and sometimes outright schoolyard bullying. It's part of the game.










<< >>

The team that scores the most points alwasys wins. Playoffs or regular season. Defenders are nice when you're trying to protect a lead, but you have to have guys who can put the pumkin through the hoop to get a lead. Nice thing about the Mavs is we have both. Up tempo, slow tempo, physical, tough defense or no we just keep winning. Pacers should try it some time. BTW the view is real good up here at the top of the standings.

The Pacers while not as adept as the mavs, certainly have no problem scoring and they to are at the top of the standings in the East. That was an arrogant and stupid paragraph.

LRB
01-13-2003, 01:03 AM
<< Artest may be crazier than fox on acid but he is no thug. >>



Dictionary Definition for thug -

n : an aggressive young criminal

Arteest meeets this definition for thug. He is young, agressive, and a criminal. Yeah he's more mentally unstable than thuggish, but he is still a thug.





<< First of all Artest's skills are hardly limited, he can put the ball on the floor,get to the basket and he's developed quite a serviceable jumpshot over the last 2 years, he's hitting 3s fairly regularly now. >>

Sorry I've seen his ball handling and its average at best. His jumpshot is weak. He's still the guy I want taking the jump shots. His FT% is better but below average. His 3pt shooting is incredibly streaky at best. Doesn't scare me at all from behind the arc. He does have incredible athletic quickness and strength. And he's a very good leaper. He has very good athletic ability for a 2-3, but average skills at the very best and they are limited. Artest relies on Athletic abilities much more than any skills.



<< Regardless of whether he is mentally tough, he is most certainly physically tough. >>

If your definition of toughness is strong and quick. Fine he's tough. But without mental toughness strong and quick are practically useless in crunch time. They may work against you just as much as for you. Sorry, he's still a wimp in my book until he learns to control himself.



<< He doesen't throw elbows or take cheap shots at people. >>


I totally disagree with you on this one. So do NBA officials and the NBA discipline committee. I've seen him both throw elbows and take cheap shots. That is a major part of his game. He is a good defender because he is allowed to get away with a lot of fouling and cheap shots. He still gets caught for a lot. He averages almost 4 fouls a game. Every game I've seen him play he gets away with at least 10 to 15 for everyone that's called.



<< Dirty play is part of the game >>

Totally disagree with you on this one. It is not part of the game. It does happen, but it is not part of the game. It is just plain thuggery. It should be cleaned up. We will never probably be able to completely eliminate it, but it can and should be reduced. Artest is one of the very worts at it. They might be a hand full worse than him, but he is definitely a top 10 thug and proabably higher. I'll give you that Miller is proabably worse than Artest though. But Artest is worse than Miller in instigating fights. Miller is more of a cheap shot artist but can keep his cool better than Artest though still not very good. No superstar other than the possible exception of Karl Malone has come close to Artest in the cheap shots he takes. In hockey he would be a goon, plain and simple.




<< The team that scores the most points alwasys wins. Playoffs or regular season. Defenders are nice when you're trying to protect a lead, but you have to have guys who can put the pumkin through the hoop to get a lead. Nice thing about the Mavs is we have both. Up tempo, slow tempo, physical, tough defense or no we just keep winning. Pacers should try it some time. BTW the view is real good up here at the top of the standings.

The Pacers while not as adept as the mavs, certainly have no problem scoring and they to are at the top of the standings in the East. That was an arrogant and stupid paragraph.
>>



What an idiotic statment by you. Truely worthy of one of those NY rags called newspapers who don't let the facts get in the way of saying something totally moronic. What's worse you quoted me out of context and apparently took little pains to understand the context.

Let's look at the definition of arrogant as an adjective.

adj : having or showing feelings of unwarranted importance out of overbearing pride

Let's see somebody posts a stupid statemet which follows:



I was responding to an arrogant

<< High scoring may win alot of games during the season but when it comes time to grind it out in the playoffs, you need tough, physical defenders. >>



Now this was inferring that the Mavs would have problems come playoff time because they are all offense with very little defense, unlike the Pacers. That is a completely false, stupid and arrogant statement. The Mavs score the most points in the league at just under 103 per game. Almost 4 points per game better than Indy and would be even better if we weren't blowing teams out by so much so often. We're playing our scrubs for the 4th quarter of a fairly high percentage of our games. The scrubs just don't score as well as the starters. So there is a big difference in our scoring and Indiy's. While they may not be the worst team, and are infact one of the better teams, they are nowhere close to the offensive machine that the Mavs are.

Now here's the kicker. The Mavs are allowing fewer points per game than Indy. i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gifi/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif So all our soft bad defensive players are doing better than the thugs in Indy. Dallas is also allowing a lower opponent's FG% than Indy. So the statement by the other poster was just hot air being blown up our collective behinds. Dallas has the fewest loses in the NBA which is half as many as Indy has. We have the largest margin of victory in the NBA, more than 2 times what Indy has. We have the most home wins and the most road wins. So there is nothing unwarranted about my response. Not sure that I can say the same about yours though. Maybe it was just ingorance. Next time do the research and save us all some time.

Trinity
01-16-2003, 04:24 PM
16 ppg 6 rpg, best defender of 2s and 3s in the league.
Yea, Artest is very limited indeed, wish the Pacers had Najera instead. You guys looked great against the Kings last night, we just passed up the Nets for the best record in the East. Hopefully we meet in the finals, easy win for the Pacers. You guys should stop praying that the Lakers don't make the playoffs and hope they move farther up so they can't beat you in the first round. Of course the Kings will probably pass you guys up for best record in the West anyway. Ironic one week you guys are calling the best defender in the league a bum, then someone posts about how you need more bangers and individual defenders after your boys get beat down by the Kings, WTF. You guys are very limited.
Hippie Nash- your only tough player, but horrible defender, I really like this guy the Hippie thing is just in jest, very good player.
Najera- poor man's Artest, but with limited basketball skills
Dirk- great offense, poor defence
Bradley- decent shot blocker, fun for everyone to dunk on
Finley- will always be Glenn Robinsons' bitch from the old Purdue vs. Wisconsin days, can't think of anything else when I see the poor guy.
NVE- clutch thug, would make a good Pacer, possible trade idea, NVE for our 12th man Jamison Brewer
Raef- poor man's Scott Pollard
Roy Tarpley- oh sh!t, my bad, sorry guys
Don Nelson- gotta love the old Celtic, great coach, thank him for your record
Cuban- love this guy stands up to scumbag Stern, almost positive he graduated from Indiana U. probably got his B-ball smarts from living in Indiana, he'll eventually get you guys a champ, just not this time around.
Hope you guys love my unbiased analysis of your team
I also hope the Lakers fail, Shaq is gonna get an ass-beating from the Pacers. On a serious note, watch the first Pacer vs. Laker game, a Pacer poster said that Al Harrington told him at a camp it would be &quot;interesting&quot;, Miller and Artest fighting Shaq, Reggie fighting Kobe, something crazy will go down, probably Shaq or Kobe getting drilled.

TripleDipping
01-16-2003, 04:27 PM
Where's the first game gonna be played? Indy or LA?

LRB
01-16-2003, 10:39 PM
Trinity: I hope the Pacer actually beat the Lakers. Just because I dislike the Lakers sooooo much. But you have a very bad memory to be talking about getting your butt beat on the road. The Pacers got theirs beat very badly in Dallas the last time they were there.

A banger would have mad no difference last night. While it might have been interesting to see Artest and Mrs. Christie go at it, I'll still pass on him for this team until he gains self control. No lose cannons are needed on this ship. You guys go play in your Leastern conference while we decide the next champion over here.

BTW do you get off on being a troll or is it just a general lack of class by Indiana fans spawned by your players and coaches?

OutletPass
01-27-2003, 10:02 PM
Bump....

our favorite thug is at it again.


Artest file: Flagrant, tech, battles Riles, raises fingers

MIAMI (AP) -- Tempestuous Ron Artest made the Miami Heat angry, and Reggie Miller finished them off. Miller sank a 3-pointer with 1:10 left to put the Indiana Pacers ahead to stay, then added a layup with 41 seconds left in a 102-95 victory over Miami on Monday night.

Artest had two confrontations with Heat coach Pat Riley, and he made an obscene gesture from center court as the Pacers rallied in the final period. The Heat lost after leading at the start of the fourth quarter for the eighth time. Miller scored 21 points to lead the Pacers, who won their fourth game in a row. Caron Butler had 22 points for Miami.

The first incident involving Artest came in the first quarter, when he engaged in a testy exchange with Riley in front of the Miami bench. Riley and Butler received technical fouls for contending Artest had fouled Butler while jostling for position during a dead ball. As Riley continued to complain, Artest walked up to the coach and joined the argument. &quot;Don't talk to me,'' Riley angrily told Artest.

Peace prevailed until the fourth quarter. With 8:13 left, Artest was called for a flagrant foul when he ran over Butler as they chased a loose ball out of bounds. Butler sank both free throws to put Miami ahead 81-76. Then, two minutes later, Artest hit a driving scoop shot, was fouled and walked toward the Miami bench with his right arm flexed. As he exchanged words with assistant coach Keith Askins, Artest brushed against Riley. They began shouting at each other, and Riley shoved Artest away.

Artest was called for a technical. After Miami's Eddie Jones missed that free throw, Artest sank his free throw to cut Miami's lead to 83-82. He then backpedaled up the court with both middle fingers aloft.

When the Heat trailed 98-95 in the final minute, Miami's Malik Allen committed a turnover and Jones missed a 3-pointer. Al Harrington then sank two free throws with 19 seconds left to clinch the win.

LRB
01-27-2003, 10:27 PM
Ah my favorite stoopid thug is at it again. Thank goodness he isn't a Mav. Sure the Indy Trolls will come whining on this thread again soon.

Trinity
01-28-2003, 05:40 AM
Whining, whatever, you guys are the one's whining about a player who plays for another team. The only thing Artest did that was out of line was flipping everyone off, big deal. Riley, who turned the Knicks into lowlifes, deserves to be intimidated by the 2003 NBA Defensive Player of the Year. The flagrant, I'm sure none of you seen it, really was not a flagrant and I've heard that the league is gonna remove it from his record. I'm sure you guys have heard the good news, Zeke is coaching the East All-Stars, I've also heard that not only you guys' favorite player is going but also Brad Miller and Jermaine. Did any Mavs make the team, if so, they may wanna stay home to keep from getting hurt. Artest already said he was going crazy at the All-Star game and not-shooting, just defending.

Trinity
01-28-2003, 05:40 AM
Whining, whatever, you guys are the one's whining about a player who plays for another team. The only thing Artest did that was out of line was flipping everyone off, big deal. Riley, who turned the Knicks into lowlifes, deserves to be intimidated by the 2003 NBA Defensive Player of the Year. The flagrant, I'm sure none of you seen it, really was not a flagrant and I've heard that the league is gonna remove it from his record. I'm sure you guys have heard the good news, Zeke is coaching the East All-Stars, I've also heard that not only you guys' favorite player is going but also Brad Miller and Jermaine. Did any Mavs make the team, if so, they may wanna stay home to keep from getting hurt. Artest already said he was going crazy at the All-Star game and not-shooting, just defending.

Big Boy Laroux
01-28-2003, 06:54 AM
the only thing he did wrong was the flipping people off?

how about being a juvenile ass and bumping the coach of the other team? riley was standing in front of his bench, and artest went up to him and bumped him. it's not like riley was out on the court.

the guy's a punk. plain and simple.

MavKikiNYC
01-28-2003, 07:50 AM
I think a 3-game suspension is coming.

Trinity
01-28-2003, 08:01 AM
The bumping incident was Riley nudging Good Guy Ronnie with his elbow. It was not that big of deal either way. Ronnie flexed his muscles at the the Heat bench and Askin dropped his clip board like he wanted a piece of Good Guy Ronnie and then backed off. The only baby was Caron Butler who could not take the fact that Ronnie was shutting him down. It's not the Pacer's fault that Artest is a bad ass that everyone's afraid of. With Shaq swinging at Brad Miller, when Oakley drilled him, and K-Mart clotheslining people, I don't see how anyone can complain about Artest.

Big Boy Laroux
01-28-2003, 08:34 AM
He went straight up to riley and got in his face! who does that? punks do that.

TripleDipping
01-28-2003, 08:44 AM
<< The bumping incident was Riley nudging Good Guy Ronnie with his elbow. It was not that big of deal either way. Ronnie flexed his muscles at the the Heat bench and Askin dropped his clip board like he wanted a piece of Good Guy Ronnie and then backed off. The only baby was Caron Butler who could not take the fact that Ronnie was shutting him down. It's not the Pacer's fault that Artest is a bad ass that everyone's afraid of. With Shaq swinging at Brad Miller, when Oakley drilled him, and K-Mart clotheslining people, I don't see how anyone can complain about Artest. >>



I don't have time to argue all the bonehead comments that you made, but please do yourself and the Pacers fans a favor and run your thoughts thru your brain before you talk.
The incident with the Miami bench (please note 'Miami' bench) happened because Artest was standing right infront of the bench doing his 'mojo'.
It's a good thing that Askins backed off. We've all seen how Artest handles his confrontation with people i.e. first going nose to nose with that person and then pretend he was going to attack him by charging him. Know what I mean? Does the game in Dallas ring a 'Bell' to you?
Everyone's afraid of Artest? What a joke. If anything people ignore him because of the jackhole that he is. Imagine if every player in the league act like him.
I don't know how long you've been watching NBA, but Shaq, Oakley, Miller and K-Mart all got suspended for their jackhole behaviors. Nice comparisons dude!
I caught Brian Grant's post-game comments and I agreed totally with what he said. Artest is a hardworking player but he needs to cut all that $hit and just play because nobody's buying it.

Mav_Man1
01-28-2003, 11:40 AM
Trinity; Lokk at how many flagrant fouls Artest and Brad Miller
have ---4 EACH---. This illustrates what a punk Coach does when
he has punk players. 1 more and it's suspension time.
I was glad that the old Bad Boys of Detroit
have gone away and the NBA turned away from shaq-like thugery.
I wish the ref's would call the game a lot more pure, as it was
intended.

I'm out.

LRB
01-28-2003, 12:06 PM
Trinity: Would you like some cheese to go with you whines?

Got to admit though for a Troll your whines can be entertaining at times. Make sure to tip your drug dealer next time. Because you'd really have to have some powerful drugs to think for half a second that Ron &quot;the Punk Thug&quot; Artest was anything but a stoopid little juvenile punk thug with no control over his own actions.

BTW have you ever considered a career in politics? You seem a natural at spin doctoring.

TheKid
01-28-2003, 01:17 PM
I don't care if the guy got the citizenship award for the year!!!! Going up to Riley getting in his face like that then scoring a basket going over to the bench showed me all I needed to see... IDIOT!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's EXACTLY what he is!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nash13
01-28-2003, 02:21 PM
That guy is such a loser. That's exactly why he didn't make the all star team. He'd better get suspended.

LRB
01-28-2003, 02:26 PM
This just in. Coaches vote Ron Artest to the All Punk team. I think it was his lobbying of Riley that put him over the top.

TripleDipping
01-28-2003, 02:29 PM
How many of you wanna bet that Artest will be suspended for fighting in a playoff game?

LRB
01-28-2003, 03:01 PM
That's a sucker bet TD. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

TripleDipping
01-28-2003, 03:19 PM
<< That's a sucker bet TD. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif >>



DANG!
There's goes my get-rich-quick scheme. i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif

southern_sweets
01-28-2003, 06:00 PM
All this discussion of Artests temper tantrums makes me wonder what is the max the NBA can do to a player. Can they suspend him for a whole season? Ban him from playing in the NBA for life?

Also, wouldn't you think the player's team (both coaches and teammates) would get fed up at some point. What if anything has the team done to discourage Artest's behavior? Seems to me that if I were a coach I wouldn't be delighted with one of my players running down the floor with his middle fingers in the air no matter what the circumstance.

A single incident is one thing, but continuing to be out of control is a whole different matter.

I didn't see the last game when Artest when off again and haven't read more than what's here so maybe I missed something.

LRB
01-28-2003, 06:05 PM
One thing they don't seem to be able to do Sweets is raise his self control. Artest the has about as much self control over his temper as UberDirk had over his language. Ok, that's unfair. UD had much more control.

MavKikiNYC
01-28-2003, 07:29 PM
<< All this discussion of Artests temper tantrums makes me wonder what is the max the NBA can do to a player. Can they suspend him for a whole season? Ban him from playing in the NBA for life? >>



Or just market him out the wazzoo a la Rodman, who just happened to be Artest's coach's old teammate, who instead of reining his player in, defends him.

This all feels a little calculated to me. After Rodman firmly established his absolute lunacy, he got by with more on the court than any other player.

Don't think Zeke didn't notice.

LRB
01-28-2003, 10:56 PM
Kiki: are you saying that we can expect to see Artest in a dress with green hair sometime soon? i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif

scooterj5
01-29-2003, 01:18 AM
The NBA needs more people like Ron Artest- he is actually interesting!!!!!
He says that players should get automatically ejected for swearing because kids are at the games, and he's right. So what if he's physical, NBA players should be able to take it. It's hard to knock somebody who works as hard as he does.

LRB
01-29-2003, 02:26 AM
<< The NBA needs more people like Ron Artest- he is actually interesting!!!!!
He says that players should get automatically ejected for swearing because kids are at the games, and he's right. So what if he's physical, NBA players should be able to take it. It's hard to knock somebody who works as hard as he does. >>



Scooter: Did you read what Artest did???? I sincerely hope not or you just made what I view as a very hypocritical statement. Artest gave the middle finger to the crowd in the game. That's the same as swearing if not worse. With swearing only those close can hear it. With his gesture everyone in the arena can get the message.

Artest is a loose cannon and a criminal. Physical play is one thing. I know lots of physical hardnosed defenders that I admire. If that was all Ron Artest did, I wouldn't have a problem with him. However that's not all he does. And Physical play does not involve coaches either.

Ron Artest needs to be shown the exit door from the NBA until he learns to control himself and clean up his act. He is not and never should be considered appropriate family entertainment. The is a thug, a punk, and a criminal.

If you like and condone those qualities Ron Artest is your man. But if you adhore them, then you'll find little to like with Mr. Artest.

Big Boy Laroux
01-29-2003, 08:36 AM
kiki, they were saying the same thing on the fastbreak thing on espn2 (the isiah being a teammate with rodman thing). i agree. isiah was a bad boy. he's defending artest's punk actions.

anyway, kevin frazier was saying that even though rodman did some crazy things, it got fans in the stands. they always wanted to see what rodman would do next. legler chimed in with &quot;if artest doesn't cool it now, he'll be seen in that same light.&quot;

now, does artest want to be seen that way? sean elliott talked about his tenure with rodman and he said it was defnitely all a show. he was the quietest guy in the locker room, but then he went into his antics on the court and whenever he needed publicity.

i loved what brian grant had to say: &quot;i respect ron. but just play, man. cut out the bull shit. just play.&quot;

artest has talent, but he needs to make a conscious decision. does he want to be seen as a thug? if so, he'll keep on doing what he's doing.

by the way, all quotes in this post are paraphrased. they may not be exactly what i typed. i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

TheKid
01-29-2003, 09:12 AM
There's nothing wrong with hard play.. Actually when Artest went for that loose ball and knocked Butler in the stands. The more I look at it, I don't have a problem with that, however going OVER to the opponents bench and making all the bull@#%&amp; gestures, the guy is ridiculous. They need to suspend him for ATLEAST a week with NO PAY and let him think about it.

You see Rodman started all his nonsense after he was an established player in the league. Artest is still on the cusp and only has shown the ability to be very good, he's not special by any stretch of the imagination yet. Rodman at the point of his foolishness had lead the NBA in rebounding on a yearly basis and was defensive player of the year. He showed the ability to be one of the leagues best and hard to replace but Artest is NOT on that level, so if he keeps the nonsense up, he's going to find out REAL fast..

LRB
01-29-2003, 11:45 AM
NY Daily News article by Mitch Lawrence (for what it's worth)

_____________________________________


Artest snub is heated issue


Confrontations like Monday's with Pat Riley may have cost Ron Artest.

The day after Ron Artest went over the edge down in Miami, flipping off the crowd, getting into a verbal fire fight with Pat Riley and generally acting like a bum, he was conspicuously absent from the announcement for the All-Star Game's reserves.
Serves him right, right?

Nope. His snubbing is a crime.

Artest deserves to be an All-Star, even if he sometimes crosses the line and becomes the new Dennis Rodman. Why? Because he's been about the best all-around player on the best team in the East, that's why.

&quot;He's been our most valuable player,&quot; Reggie Miller said yesterday after practice.

Artest had the common sense to walk off without commenting. Miller didn't shy away, however.

&quot;It's a shame that a player of his stature and with his stats can't make the All-Star team,&quot; he said. &quot;Looking at that roster, the East's coaches ought to be shot for not putting him on.&quot;

Calm down, Reg. Making the All-Star team is not that important. Two of the game's all-time biggest jerks, Rodman and Bill Laimbeer, were also kept off All-Starteams, too, especially later in their careers when they were despised in every arena but their own.

Artest, a Queensbridge product, isn't as talented as Laimbeer or as prolific at grabbing rebounds as Rodman. But as an instigator, the former St. John's player is well on his way to matching their reputations. So while All-Star berths are meaningless, what is absolutely critical for Artest is that he clean up the rough edges of his act, without ever changing his approach.

&quot;We have a saying, 'Playing hard is a talent,'&quot; said Atlanta coach Terry Stotts at the Garden last night before his Hawks took on the Knicks. &quot;A lot of guys can't play that way. But that's his style.&quot;

In the midst of another miserable season, the Hawks are frantically trying to trade Glenn Robinson, Shareef Abdur-Rahim and/or Jason Terry. You know why the Hawks and just about every other team would love to trade for Artest today? Because of that style. He never takes a night off. Or a possession off, which is why the Pacers patiently put up with his antics.

&quot;Ron is ultra-competitive,&quot; said Fran Fraschilla, his coach at St. John's. &quot;He's just wired differently.&quot;

Sometimes, those wires get crossed and Artest goes off. At that point, hide all the breakables, including $150,000 TV cameras. Those are the times when his macho act is costly to his team, directly affecting the Pacers' ability to win. That's when he's way out of bounds. He's got to be smarter than that.

Like when he got suspended for three games for breaking a TV camera at the Garden on Jan. 3. Or when he became Public Enemy No. 1 in Miami Monday night. Flexing his muscles in front of Miami's bench was bush league. Jawing with Riley was inane. Showing his middle finger to the crowd was as unprofessional as you can get.

But as bad as he acted, none of that merits a suspension. The league would be wrong to penalize the Pacers by banishing Artest. However, he does deserve a nice fat fine so that maybe he will start to learn that he is representing a major league and a professional team and a city.

Will that get his attention? Perhaps. Artest is a notorious hoarder of his money. As a member of the Bulls, he once tried to get a part-time job with a retail electronics chain so that he could get equipment at a discount.

Maybe a fine will force Artest to start channeling his boundless energy in a positive way. Then what a player he'll be. Because most of what he does on the court is very positive. He often draws the assignment of covering the opponent's top scorer. He goes to the basket fearlessly. His passion for collecting loose balls is positively Oakleyesque. No denying he's had an All-Star season.

&quot;This is only going to make him hungrier and meaner,&quot; Miller said. &quot;And the rest of the league doesn't want that to happen.&quot;

We'll see about that. Artest still needs more work on his basketball skills to really be feared. Right now, people know not to mess with him. He broke Michael Jordan's ribs during a pick-up game, the summer before Jordan came back. Jordan didn't appreciate those tactics. But ever since, he has tried to trade for Artest.

&quot;Everybody used to say how dirty Bill Laimbeer was,&quot; Miller said. &quot;Well, everybody would have loved him to be on their team. It's the same with Ron. Everything he does, we back him 100%.&quot;

Unless Artest goes and does something stupid and gets hit with a suspension.

Then he's just a plain old jerk.

Originally published on January 29, 2003

LRB
01-29-2003, 01:47 PM
Posted on Wed, Jan. 29, 2003

Riley jabs back at Artest
Coach's criticism of officials also resurfaces after defeat
BY STEPHEN F. HOLDER
sholder@herald.com



STILL FUMING: &quot;He's going to walk up into somebody's huddle one day, and he's going to walk up to the wrong guy,&quot; said Heat coach Pat Riley about Indiana's Ron Artest.


Indiana Pacers forward Ron Artest had choice words -- and an obscene gesture -- for the Heat's bench Monday night. Tuesday morning, coach Pat Riley fired a message back to the hot-headed player.

''He's going to walk up into somebody's huddle one day, and he's going to walk up to the wrong guy,'' said Riley, who had to be restrained in the fourth quarter when Artest flexed his right arm in front of Miami's bench after scoring despite being fouled by Brian Grant.

Artest proved to be a one-man wrecking crew Monday, disrupting the flow of the game on several occasions and even injuring Heat forward Caron Butler, who was shoved over a row of courtside seats by Artest, drawing a flagrant-foul call.

An MRI on Butler's left foot Tuesday found no serious damage, but the rookie is questionable for tonight's game against the Knicks with bruised soft tissue in the foot.

Artest's reaction to his latest incident this season -- he was fined $10,000 for shoving Mavericks guard Raja Bell and served a three-game suspension for smashing a $100,000 TV camera at Madison Square Garden -- ranged from defiant to contrite after Monday night's 102-95 Pacers victory.

Of the arm-flexing taunt, he said: ''I'm 250 [pounds] -- I should be able to flex my muscles when I want to.'' But The Associated Press also quoted Artest as saying: ``That was bad on my part. I shouldn't have done that. I should know better.''

But Riley was smarting from more than just Artest's antics Tuesday.

His impatience with NBA officials resurfaced as Riley said there was a striking disparity in free throws between the Heat and its past two opponents, Philadelphia and Indiana, despite Heat players' attempts to draw fouls through aggressive offensive plays.

Miami was awarded 23 foul shots to Indiana's 39 on Monday, and on Saturday, the 76ers attempted 35 to Miami's 17. Riley, who was fined $50,000 last month for criticizing officials, met with league officials last week in New York to discuss the issue.

''That's impossible to overcome,'' said Riley, who was careful not to re-ignite the war of words he started with the league in December.

``We can't overcome the inconsistency of those calls when the game is [close]. It's perplexing to me. Unless the officials make a conscious effort to call the game equally, we're going to be on the short end of the stick.''

While Riley's success in winning the officiating battle has been minimal, the league appears to agree with him on Artest. NBA senior vice president of operations Stu Jackson called Riley on Tuesday morning as part of an inquiry into Monday's events.

Artest could be fined and suspended for his actions against the Heat, the most notable of which were the confrontation with Riley and assistant coach Keith Askins.

''We're conducting an investigation and we'll talk to all those involved,'' said Jackson, the league's designated disciplinarian.

Said Riley: ``It's the nature of the player today. The officials will give technicals for hanging on the rim and technical fouls for taunting out on the court. But they never give reminders to players who always run by benches and insult benches.''

Said Heat point guard Travis Best, a former Pacer: ``I thought it was ridiculous. Like we said, the refs have to do something about it. That's just a disrespect for the league, for everybody.''

But current Pacer Reggie Miller disagreed.

''He understands what he's doing, and he does a very valuable job for this team,'' Miller told The Associated Press about Artest. ``Personally, I've always worn a black hat throughout my career, so every little thing he does, I'm behind him 100 percent.''

As for the officiating, Riley has been doing detailed analysis of the Heat's recent games, looking for evidence of what last month he called officials' ''dislike'' of him.

''Over the last five games, we've been outscored by 36 free throws,'' he said. ``Our charts are showing that we drove the ball 15 times more than the opposition . . . We had 32 drives to Indiana's 17. So the attacking mentality was there, but we're on the short end of the stick by 16 free throws. [Monday] night's whistle was absolutely one-sided.''

Jackson was encouraged by last week's meeting with Riley and head official Ed Rush.

''I thought it was very productive,'' he said. ``Coach Riley shared some things and expressed his frustration. Ed Rush and I tried to shed some light on how we do things.''

Riley said he'll be in contact again and will forward his latest findings to Jackson's office. Jackson is willing to listen.

''With any coach, if they have concerns, we'll respond,'' Jackson said.

MavKikiNYC
01-29-2003, 03:48 PM
Artest Suspended Four Games. (http://www.nba.com/news/artest_030128.html)

TripleDipping
01-29-2003, 03:52 PM
That means he'll be out for the Lakers game. Shoot.

LRB
01-29-2003, 05:07 PM
Kiki thanks for the link. Is Artest the competing for the MSI (Most Stoopid Idiot) award or what?

TripleDipping
01-29-2003, 05:09 PM
LRB: Shhhhhhh....... becareful what you say or else some Indy troll will drink more whine here. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

scooterj5
01-29-2003, 07:38 PM
<< Scooter: Did you read what Artest did???? I sincerely hope not or you just made what I view as a very hypocritical statement. Artest gave the middle finger to the crowd in the game. That's the same as swearing if not worse. With swearing only those close can hear it. With his gesture everyone in the arena can get the message.

Artest is a loose cannon and a criminal. Physical play is one thing. I know lots of physical hardnosed defenders that I admire. If that was all Ron Artest did, I wouldn't have a problem with him. However that's not all he does. And Physical play does not involve coaches either.

Ron Artest needs to be shown the exit door from the NBA until he learns to control himself and clean up his act. He is not and never should be considered appropriate family entertainment. The is a thug, a punk, and a criminal.

If you like and condone those qualities Ron Artest is your man. But if you adhore them, then you'll find little to like with Mr. Artest. >>



In the future, please refrain from posting such self-righteous condemning tripe. It's the worst part about this board.

All I will say is that everyone makes mistakes, and Artest's heart is in the right place. When he does stupid stuff it's not deliberate.

LRB
01-29-2003, 08:39 PM
Scooter you can believe what you want about his heart but I've seen no proof of what you say. There are a lot of good players who are good people also. I just can't understand why people insist on defending punks and criminals such as Artest. And Artest is a punk. He shows that with his actions. And he has committed criminal actions and been filmed doing them. He just got off from being charged because he's an NBA player. I really don't think Ron Artest should be in the NBA until he has his mental problems taken care of. That's the difference between the real world where most of us live and the NBA. The NBA condones criminal behavior which would get most of us at least fired if not arrested.

irontoad
01-30-2003, 02:57 PM
<< When he does stupid stuff it's not deliberate. >>



I'm sorry, but you can't tell me how shoving a player over a row of courtside seats is not deliberate...

TripleDipping
01-30-2003, 03:03 PM
<< All I will say is that everyone makes mistakes, and Artest's heart is in the right place. When he does stupid stuff it's not deliberate. >>



Whaaaaaa....???? So when does it become deliberate? Please tell me.
I don't know which place his heart was but I'm sure as hell his head was in the wrong place.

OutletPass
01-30-2003, 09:37 PM
I've noticed that Jerry Sloan came out and apologized pretty quickly, while Artest bitched and tried to justify his behavior and place the blame on Butler and Riley.

That says a LOT to me.

LRB
01-30-2003, 09:54 PM
<< That says a LOT to me. >>



Maturity and willingness to be held accountable for your own actions are 2 things that come readily to mind. Jerry Sloa isn't my favorite coach, but he showed a lot of class in his response. Class is something that is in short supply in today's NBA.

ScottM
01-30-2003, 11:13 PM
I guess you havn't heard the press conference Artest had he apolagized for everything

centrlpark08
01-30-2003, 11:15 PM
Artest is an idiot! actually an ass for what he has done, he doesnt deserve to be an all-star cause i dont think all-stars would do such a think like what he has done.

OutletPass
01-30-2003, 11:28 PM
ScottM -- Heard the press conference AND read the rest of his remarks...my comment still stand. Can you tell me why the Pacers, with 3 of the 4 leaders in flagrant fouls -- are the most disliked team in the NBA...not just on this board but with all NBA fans ?

Why does a team with so much talent have to lead the league in flagrants ?

I know that Indiana is an insulated wasteland - I lived there - but can you explain why you and other Pacers fans HAVE TO BE SUCH apologists with your heads stuck in the sand. The rest of the NBA sees your team and fans in one way, so why can't you be the least bit objective ?

The rest of the NBA isn't wrong.

OutletPass
01-30-2003, 11:44 PM
There's nothing wrong with hard play

Actually, there's a lot that's wrong with hard play.

The league is full of fantastic, artistic graceful players who are essential to the league. They entertain millions, provide tremendous revenue and put butts in seat. Having them on the court is the entire purpose of the NBA.

Having these players clotheslined (as KG did tonight) or tossed in the stands subjects them to injury and being put on the IR or having their careers ended.

I love basketball because it's a graceful, skilled sport that can be compared to &quot;art&quot; on the move. If I wanted to see football or rugby, I'd go there. I prefer b-ball precisely because it's rules are aimed at making it a game of skill rather than brutality.

Let's be honest -- you won't find the words &quot;hard play&quot; anywhere in the NBA league rules. If you want hard play, contact Vince McMahon for WWE tickets or XFL tapes...or go to a Cowboy game.

Saying there's nothing wrong with hard play is very much like saying there's nothing wrong with &quot;soft play&quot; in the NFL.

LRB
01-30-2003, 11:58 PM
Excellent posts OP.

ScottM
01-31-2003, 03:07 PM
I'm sorry OP but the mosted hated team still is probably the Lakers. I don't have my head stuck in the sand and actually I live by Chicago, so I am not really in a wasteland. As for my post All I said was that he apolagized for what he need to apoligize for and that was flipping the bird and going overboard with the trash talking, you can't tell me that warrants more games than throwing a blindsided elbow at someones neck, like a certain player did, or in the case of Chris Mills when he parked his car in front of the Blazers team bus and wanted to get into an altercation? Maybe the four games is the right call but then the Mills thing and the other guy should of recieved all some people are asking for is some consistency from the front office. I'm pretty sure you can understand that.

LRB
01-31-2003, 04:00 PM
ScottM Mills does not have the History that Artest does. And Artest going over and purposefully bumping Riley was completely overboard. Ron Artest needs to agree to be accountable for his actions and take his punishments like a man instead of a 5 yearold little boy. I have yet to see Artest display any class or Maturity. So far he looks more like an ass going through puberty. 4 games for what he did was very, very light IMO considering his past transgressios. Artest repeeatedly refuse to learn from his mistakes.

TripleDipping
01-31-2003, 04:17 PM
Everyone knows Stew Jacko messed up in the Mills suspension. We don't need to see the same mistake being made twice so I can say that Artest's 4 gamer deal is justified. The league shouldn't let Artest slide just because they know they made a mistake in the Mills' case.

MavKikiNYC
01-31-2003, 10:00 PM
Looks like the Pacers are at it again. Yep, responsbility starts at the top...higher level of responsibility...blah, blah, blah. Guess this 'splains some of Artest's problem. Let's see how Stooge Ackson plays this one.

7 games for Zeke. Have a seat, Zeke.

Toronto 102, Indiana 90 Raptors Take Gritty Win Over Pacers

TORONTO, Jan. 31 (Ticker) -- In a chippy game that saw the Toronto Raptors surprise the Pacers, 102-90, Indiana coach Isiah Thomas and forward Al Harrington were ejected following an altercation early in the fourth quarter.

With Ron Artest serving the second of his four-game suspension for his confrontation with Miami coach Pat Riley, emotions boiled over again for the Pacers, who suffered their second straight loss.

With 8:02 left, Toronto's Morris Peterson became tangled with Harrington as the two players came downcourt. Apprarently thinking that he was tripped intentionally, Harrington charged at Peterson and the players exchanged shoves. Peterson also was ejected.

Things escalated when Thomas ran onto the court and tried to go after Peterson, shouting obscenities at him. Thomas was held back by Toronto coach Lenny Wilkens, likely saving him a suspension.

The Raptors avoided a season sweep by the Pacers, beating them for the first time in four meetings. Toronto improved to 2-1 since Vince Carter returned to the lineup.

Former Pacer Antonio Davis had 20 points and 10 rebounds for the Raptors, while Voshon Lenard scored 17 points. Jerome Williams chipped in with 16 and 10 boards and has reached double figures in rebounds in 11 of his last 12 games.

The Pacers were sloppy on defense, allowing the Raptors a number of opportunities in transition. Toronto took control in the third quarter and opened an 80-68 lead on Peterson's 3-pointer with 9:03 left.

MavsFanFinley
01-31-2003, 10:13 PM
I've seen the play only twice, from the same angle. And I don't think Mo Pete tripped Harrington on purpose. Both are running down court, feet tangle up and Harrington is the one that goes down.

Harrington was furious and went directly at Peterson. Ok, I can maybe understand that, the floor burn probably didn't feel too good, but wtf?? What was Thomas running out there like he was gonna take Peterson's head off?

LRB
01-31-2003, 10:30 PM
<< I've seen the play only twice, from the same angle. And I don't think Mo Pete tripped Harrington on purpose. Both are running down court, feet tangle up and Harrington is the one that goes down.

Harrington was furious and went directly at Peterson. Ok, I can maybe understand that, the floor burn probably didn't feel too good, but wtf?? What was Thomas running out there like he was gonna take Peterson's head off? >>



MFF who do you think is teaching all this crap to the young pacers. Isaiah may have that angelic look, but don't let it fool you. He's as dirty as they come. Though I'd love to see Isaiah come after Jerry Sloan. Sloan would rip him a new one and take the suspension without a complaint. Would be nice if the Pacers had a coach who could instill some class. Unfortunately Isaiah isn't that coach.

MavsFanFinley
01-31-2003, 11:02 PM
<< MFF who do you think is teaching all this crap to the young pacers? >>



I just figured there's a difference between teaching and acting.I figured Thomas would have more sense to leave it to his players to pull the crap they do. No matter what he did as a player, you'd think a coach wouldn't attack (try to in this case) a player like that.

LRB
01-31-2003, 11:14 PM
MFF I see your point and it did surprise me at 1st. But then the more I thought about it, the more I realized that if you are constantly preaching a doctrine of thugeshness that it will rub off on your own thoughts and actions. Yes there is a difference between teaching and action. But its not that big in some things. But its doubly sad to see a coach behave the way Thomas did. Indiana has a very stinky mess that they need to clean up. Unfortunately this won't happen until they start losing. That whole organization has lost almost any class it might have had. Now its all about the wins. Or win at any cost. Trouble is for them I don't think their strategy will produce wins long term and maybe not short term if their whole team ends up suspended.

LRB
01-31-2003, 11:25 PM
I just wanted to say one more thing about the Pacers and Ron Artest in particular. They just make me very thankful to be a Mavs fan. I really appreciate the character and citizenship shown by members of the Mavs. I especially appreciate Michael Finely. He is the true leader of this team and sets the example for maturity and good citizenship. He doesn't back down as he showed last night with KG in standing up for his teammate Dirk, but fin doesn't go crazy off the deep end. Ron Artest could really stand to take more than one lesson from Michael Finely and the Dallas Mavs.

MavsFanFinley
02-01-2003, 07:02 PM
Thomas suspended for two games for role in fight

By DAN GELSTON, Associated Press Writer

February 1, 2003

INDIANAPOLIS (AP) -- Indiana Pacers coach Isiah Thomas was suspended for two games Saturday by the NBA for his role in a fight between two players during a loss to Toronto.

Thomas, along with the Pacers' Al Harrington and Toronto's Morris Peterson were ejected following the 102-90 victory Friday night, two days after the Pacers' Ron Artest received a four-game suspension for his run-in with Miami coach Pat Riley.

``Coaches are allowed on the floor as peacemakers during an altercation, not as combatants,'' said Stu Jackson, NBA senior vice president of basketball operations. ``Coach Thomas did not act as peacemaker during this incident.''

Thomas, Indiana's third-year coach, missed Saturday's game against Boston and will miss Tuesday's game against the Los Angeles Lakers. Assistant Brendan Malone is the interim coach.

Pacers president Donnie Walsh said Thomas was ``stunned'' when he learned of the suspension before the game.

``I don't know why he was suspended for two games, I really don't,'' Walsh said.

Harrington approached Peterson in an aggressive manner after Peterson tripped him up Harrington on a fast break with 8:02 left in the fourth quarter.

Peterson appeared to throw a punch, and a shoving match ensued. Thomas ran onto the court and tried to get at Peterson, but Toronto coach Lenny Wilkens held Thomas back.

Walsh said Peterson cursed at Thomas, causing him to take a step toward him.

No action was taken against Harrington or Peterson.

Thomas will not coach again until he leads the Eastern Conference in next weekend's All-Star game. He'll be eligible to coach the Pacers again on Feb. 11 against Cleveland.

scooterj5
02-01-2003, 07:29 PM
Hate to say it but I'm really liking the Pacers. They are teammates and stick up for each other. If Harrington gets tripped (which in my opinion he was) then he has his team and coach behind him. I think the Mavs need to show more emotion so teams don't think we are soft.

MavKikiNYC
02-01-2003, 08:10 PM
Any tough message that Stooge Ackson sent out with Sloan's suspensnion regarding inappropriate oncourt conduct by coaches has now been neutered. Stooge said that precedent has no value, and he MEANT it.

Coaches held to a higher standard of conduct? Maybe. Maybe not. Depends on the coach. Depends on the situation. Depends on Stooge's prior relationship with the coach. Depends on what the NBA feels like public reaction might be. Thus runs the NBA's incontinence- depends, depends, depends.

How can one possibly reconcile the disparity in punishments between Sloan and Thomas?

LRB
02-01-2003, 10:09 PM
<< Pacers president Donnie Walsh said Thomas was ``stunned'' when he learned of the suspension before the game.
>>



I truely believe that the pacers organization is totally devoid of any class at all. It's all about the thuggery. This organization is nothing but a stupid punk organization. And Isaiah Thomas couldn't hold Jerry Sloan's clipboard.

Kiki I totally agree with you on Stooge Ackson. i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif The NBA has the backbone of the UN. And the Pacers are little more than terrorists. No wonder the NBA won't take any significant action against them. Isaiah makes a better manager in the WWF than a coach for the NBA.

Thomas should have gotten at least close to what Jerry Sloan got. IMO Thomas actions were just as bad. With any luck though Thomas' monster will backfire on him and Artest will go all Sprewell on Thomas.

centrlpark08
02-01-2003, 10:36 PM
Is Indiana gonna be the next Portland? last year reggie miller got into a fight with kobe remember anyone? then this year with all this junk going around in the pacers locker room and fights now? i think they're on the rise of being the next Trail Blazers

LRB
02-01-2003, 11:07 PM
Reggie probably has more class than everyone else in the Pacers organization, and I don't nessarily mean that as a compliment. Let's just hope that the Pacers stay off the wacky tabacky. They have enough problems as it is.

OutletPass
02-13-2003, 12:07 AM
BUMP

Our Guy is at it again !!!!

From ESPN on 2/12 - Indiana Recap

Artest ripped a courtside microphone from the tape holding it on the press table after being called for a meaningless foul at the end of the game. Artest was playing only his second game after serving a four-game suspension for an altercation with Miami Heat coach Pat Riley and making an obscene gesture during that game. ...

MavsFanFinley
02-13-2003, 12:13 AM
That's a shame for a guy that talented.

When is the league going to do something about him?

He needs counseling or something.

irontoad
02-13-2003, 11:54 AM
I'm sorry, but what a fu***** idiot. Unless the NBA is using him as some sort of ratings grabber with his antics, enough of this 4 game suspension crap. Don't let this idiot play until post-season.

TripleDipping
02-13-2003, 12:17 PM
Yawn...
That man can go and rob a liquor store and I won't be shocked.

MavsFanFinley
02-13-2003, 12:25 PM
There's nothing he could do that would shock me on the court anymore. I'm more baffled that the league hasn't put it's foot down where he is concerned.

MavKikiNYC
02-13-2003, 06:41 PM
<< That's a shame for a guy that talented.

When is the league going to do something about him?

He needs counseling or something. >>




I can pretty much guarantee that if the NBA started suspending the head coach ALONG WITH the player, these antics would stop so quick they'd leave skid marks.

Oh wait...they tried that.

LRB
02-15-2003, 09:42 AM
<<

<< That's a shame for a guy that talented.

When is the league going to do something about him?

He needs counseling or something. >>




I can pretty much guarantee that if the NBA started suspending the head coach ALONG WITH the player, these antics would stop so quick they'd leave skid marks.

Oh wait...they tried that. >>



LOL - But I'd still like to see it happen again.

Artest is an idiot and a disgrace to basketball. He will hurt someone very badly if the NBA doesn't get a handle on his presently uncontrolable temper. I'm just hoping that he goes all Sprewell on Isaiah. That would be poetic justice.