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View Full Version : Poll: Kobe v. T-Mac


Nash13
02-20-2003, 05:06 PM
I am putting up the argument that T-Mac is BETTER than Kobe. While Kobe is breaking MJ's record, so is T-Mac(not the same one). If Kobe was in Orlando, the Magic would never go to the playoffs. If T-Mac was on the Lakers, they would still make it.

Ummmmm Ok
02-20-2003, 05:12 PM
TMAC for (2) reasons.

1) Tmac is a team player. Look at his stats. He Scores, rebounds, and does ASSISTS. Sure Kobe can score, but putting up 40-50 shots a game?

2) Tmac is also on my fantasy BBALL Team. Should I say more? i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif

LRB
02-20-2003, 05:18 PM
TMac because I can't stand Kobe's attention starved attitude.

MavsFanFinley
02-20-2003, 05:19 PM
T-Mac, he's much more willing to be a team player than Kobe. And he doesn't have the attitude Kobe has.

Epitome22
02-20-2003, 06:45 PM
Kobe. Combarable game around the Basket. Better mid range game. Comparable long range game and 3 point stroke. Better court vision. Slightly better rebounder. Better defender.

aexchange
02-20-2003, 06:48 PM
t-mac. size. all-around game. not as good a defender as kobe, but kobe is slightly overrated in that area. SLIGHTLY.

its almost a toss up, but i take t-mac b/c of his size. the guy is freakin 6'9".

good lord, what a match up nightmare.

MavKikiNYC
02-20-2003, 07:41 PM
Kobe.

As if three championship rings weren't enough.

He may have some attitude, but it's winner's attitude.

Skills unquestioned.

I'd deal any two players on the Mavericks for him not named Dirk.

scooterj5
02-20-2003, 08:08 PM
Who cares?

MavKikiNYC
02-20-2003, 09:42 PM
Who cares if anyone cares?

LRB
02-20-2003, 10:30 PM
Who care if anyone cares if anyone cares?i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

Subliminal012
02-21-2003, 12:58 AM
<< TMAC for (2) reasons.

1) Tmac is a team player. Look at his stats. He Scores, rebounds, and does ASSISTS. Sure Kobe can score, but putting up 40-50 shots a game?

2) Tmac is also on my fantasy BBALL Team. Should I say more? i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif >>



UH kobe has more assists, he's 11th in the nba. He never shot over 40 except during hte spurs game, noone was producing so he took it into his hands and somehwat had a bad game. Shooting 50 percent from the field well that's not bad, get me another guard doing this.

In number of team wins: Kobe is higher
In number of games played: Kobe is higher
In minutes per game: Kobe is higher
In field goal percentage: Kobe is higher
In 3 pt field goal percentage: Kobe is higher
In free throw percentage: Kobe is higher
In rebounds per game: Kobe is higher
In assists per game: Kobe is higher
In steals per game: Kobe is higher
In blocks per game: Kobe is higher


T-mac more points per a game, he leads kobe by .2. T-mac has 30.6 kobe is at 30.4

Frogot kobe leads the nba in triple-doubles, so much for your non team player theory. Not underminding t-mac still one of the best players in the game, but not on kobe's level.

legolas
02-21-2003, 05:43 AM
tmac...he's more interesting to watch

and i dunno why but seeing kobe annoys me so much

TheKid
02-21-2003, 09:42 AM
I'd say T-Mac.. ONLY because he's bigger and he can do the same things Kobe does. Either way you can't go wrong and you're talking about the TOP TWO players in the game RIGHT NOW!!!!!! Well Shaq would be there but he's not healthy other than that, they are the BEST TWO PLAYERS in the game.

Big Boy Laroux
02-21-2003, 01:45 PM
subliminal, all your post tells me is that t-mac scores more in fewer minutes...

you also forgot:
in turnovers per game, kobe is higher


thus t-mac is better! i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

Subliminal012
02-21-2003, 03:34 PM
<< subliminal, all your post tells me is that t-mac scores more in fewer minutes...

you also forgot:
in turnovers per game, kobe is higher


thus t-mac is better! i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif >>



Nope, Kobe has more points and more freethrows made. Kobe will most likely take his scoring title tonight or the next game. Considering kobe handles the ball more then any other player and has to create his own shot it is harder. I rather have kobe over t-mac def.

centrlpark08
02-21-2003, 04:09 PM
T-Mac, He's just interesting to watch and has a great mind. Kobe just makes me piss when I watch him play. He shoots the ball and just doesnt look great on his strokes. T-Mac just makes it look smooth and he has a kind heart. I pick T-Mac to be a better player and a better player outside of basketball.

Subliminal012
02-21-2003, 05:11 PM
<< T-Mac, He's just interesting to watch and has a great mind. Kobe just makes me piss when I watch him play. He shoots the ball and just doesnt look great on his strokes. T-Mac just makes it look smooth and he has a kind heart. I pick T-Mac to be a better player and a better player outside of basketball. >>



Matter of opinion on to watch. I love Kobe's performance, lately his shots are just amazing. His stroke look fine to me? Especially on the fadeaways. T-mac the better person outside of basketball?? You don't know him nor do you know kobe so this is baseless. Kobe's though is worshipped by his peers for his work ethic ie putting on 15 pounds of muscle in the off-season and just trying to be the best at what he does he has the heart of a champion. He also strives to win, he doesn't care about anything but winning he is a fierce competitor. He doesn't drink and doesn't go out to party and strip clubs with the guys afterward, like he said &quot;i came to the nba to play basketball not to party.&quot; I don't know t-mac too well, so enlighten me with how he is a great player outside of basketball. All i know is that guy last year trash talked baron davis and the magic lost the series. T-mac said himself kobe is the better player, so i will take his word on it plus the stats and watching him and watching kobe.

jayC
02-22-2003, 10:15 AM
Kobe definetly what 11 straight 35+ point games. And nine straight 40+ games.

MavKikiNYC
02-22-2003, 11:14 AM
Too much of the hate for Kobe sounds like irrational, stone-crazy jealousy.
He's a great player....already one of the greatest, I've seen. Individual skills/plays are equal to Jordan. ALREADY. To rank with Jordan in the bigger/broader picture, he just needs to maintain, and pull down another couple of championships somehow.

I spent way too much of my adolesence hating Larry Bird, instead of enjoying him as the great player he was.

People should sit back, watch Kobe and f*ckin' enjoy him. He's a once-in-a-decade talent.

centrlpark08
02-22-2003, 12:35 PM
I have no problem with kobe guys, I think he's a terrific player but to me I just think t-mac has the edge....

Subliminal012
02-23-2003, 03:29 PM
<< I have no problem with kobe guys, I think he's a terrific player but to me I just think t-mac has the edge.... >>



how does t-mac have the edge?

Fidel
02-23-2003, 03:52 PM
Dell Curry. Quick release.

turbo.mav
02-23-2003, 10:35 PM
LOL!

turbo.mav
02-23-2003, 10:39 PM
and as I type, kobe sinks freethrow 2 of 2 for 41 points. outrageous

turbo.mav
02-23-2003, 10:42 PM
I also have to say, I just saw highlights of t-mac's 46 pt game tonight and man... I have never seen a guy score with so much ease in my life! he looks so laid back and his play is so smooth and effortless.

Bayliss
02-23-2003, 10:43 PM
He took 34 shots. What NBA player can't score 40 points on 30+ shots?

His scoring has been impressive but put it in perspective. Duncan, Shaq, Dirk, KG, TMac, Webber, Brand, etc etc could have put up those numbers with that amount of shots.

turbo.mav
02-23-2003, 10:48 PM
It's an outrage Bayliss.

turbo.mav
02-23-2003, 10:53 PM
t-mac's line:

46 pts on 16-27 3-8 11-13 ... and he one upped Kobe with the tripple double; 10 rebs 13 Ast

MavKikiNYC
02-24-2003, 09:59 AM
<< He took 34 shots. What NBA player can't score 40 points on 30+ shots?

His scoring has been impressive but put it in perspective. Duncan, Shaq, Dirk, KG, TMac, Webber, Brand, etc etc could have put up those numbers with that amount of shots. >>



1) Getting 34 shots is, in a way, almost as impressive as scoring 40 points.

2) KB shot 13/34 (.382), but in so doing generated 16 FTs, of which he made 14. Some of his missed FGs are attributable to his being fouled on the shot. So the fact that he converted 14 of the 16 FTs mitigates the number of shots.

A quick-and-dirty way to compare scoring efficiency would be to look at the ratio of total points scored to field goals attempted, on the premise that scorers such as the ones you mention, generate points both from FGs and FTs.

Comparing the ratios of the players you mention does however show KB to be very much in the pack.

Player___Total Pts___FGA___Ratio
O'Neal___1035________700___1.48
Nowitzki___1274_______957___1.33
Duncan__1286________986___1.30
McGrady_1599_______1229___1.30
Garnett__1309_______1013___1.29
Brand____954________743___1.28
Bryant___1693_______1326___1.28
Webber___965________881___1.10

sturm und drang
02-24-2003, 12:41 PM
I vote T-Mac, too.

I know 41 points is impressive, but if I'm the Lakers I'm a little upset that my starting guard played 42 minutes and had 3 assists. THREE. Shaq, of all people, played considerably less time and had 4 assists.

I've never been impressed with the Allen Iverson hoist-a-thon style of basketball, and Kobe personifies that. He doesn't get his teammates involved, which hurts offensively as well as causing defensive lethargy. And did you see some of the shots he jacked up at the end of yesterday's game? Incredibly ill-advised, selfish and just plain stupid. The Lakers won yesterday in spite of him, not because of him.

thebac
02-24-2003, 02:38 PM
Not trying to stir up any trouble or anything, but I always liked the idea of the ratio of points to &quot;potential field goal attempts&quot; to measure scoring efficiency. PTFA = Actual Field Goal Attempts + Free Throw Attempts/2.

Say player A actually attempts 15 shots, but he is fouled on five of those attempts, and he ends up scoring 17 points. For the sake of argument, his line might be 5-10 FG, 7-10 FT. His ratio is 1.7 with FGA, ~1.13 with PFGA.

Then, there's player B who attempts 15 shots, and gets fouled once, and he scores 20 points. Say his line is 10-14 FG, 2-2 FT. His ratio is ~1.43 with FGA, ~1.33 with PFGA.

If you used FGA in the denominator, you might argue that A is more efficient than B because B needed 4 more FGA to score only 3 more points (and his ratio is thus better). However, using potential FGA you'd arrive at the (imo) more reasonable conclusion that player B is actually more efficient at scoring (assume the numbers above are averages if you want to, because one game doesn't prove anything).

Now obviously there are some caveats. Should Turnovers be incorporated in scoring efficiency? Maybe, and that could easily be done. Another caveat, though, that is not easy to deal with is 3- or 4-point plays. In that case, the ensuing FTA shouldn't count against that player's PFGA, and unfortunately, you'd have to watch games to keep track of that. Some people might also argue that the ability to get to the line and draw fouls on opposing players is important in its own right (and I'd concur), but that's probably beyond the concept of scoring efficiency.

Cheers.

sturm und drang
02-24-2003, 03:12 PM
Looks like even Phil Jackson thinks Kobe's a little selfish...

*“Well, I wasn’t sure if Kobe was going to chase that 40 points so bad that he was going to cut our chances out there at the end of the game,” Lakers coach Phil Jackson said. “It got a little tenuous.”

Subliminal012
02-24-2003, 07:58 PM
<< Looks like even Phil Jackson thinks Kobe's a little selfish...

*“Well, I wasn’t sure if Kobe was going to chase that 40 points so bad that he was going to cut our chances out there at the end of the game,” Lakers coach Phil Jackson said. “It got a little tenuous.” >>



The team as throwing him the ball and clearing the way for him to make his 40th point. They were already ahead of the sonic's so it wasn't a huge deal, but the team lost what was important and that is the pure win. It's all good, i know it won't happen again. Phil is asking kobe to do this, kobe could be like you said get more than 3 assits. The guy has 5 triple-doubles this season leading the nba. He was actually doing more dishing out and being too unselfish and it wasn't getting the lakers anywhere they were still losing because the roll-players could not produce. So phil talked to kobe and said, play aggressive take over the game. So kobe did exactly that and guess what the lakers are 11-2.

Subliminal012
02-24-2003, 07:58 PM
<< He took 34 shots. What NBA player can't score 40 points on 30+ shots?

His scoring has been impressive but put it in perspective. Duncan, Shaq, Dirk, KG, TMac, Webber, Brand, etc etc could have put up those numbers with that amount of shots. >>



Bad game, kobe is shooting 50 percent form the field from his 40+ games.

Subliminal012
02-24-2003, 08:01 PM
<< I vote T-Mac, too.

I know 41 points is impressive, but if I'm the Lakers I'm a little upset that my starting guard played 42 minutes and had 3 assists. THREE. Shaq, of all people, played considerably less time and had 4 assists.

I've never been impressed with the Allen Iverson hoist-a-thon style of basketball, and Kobe personifies that. He doesn't get his teammates involved, which hurts offensively as well as causing defensive lethargy. And did you see some of the shots he jacked up at the end of yesterday's game? Incredibly ill-advised, selfish and just plain stupid. The Lakers won yesterday in spite of him, not because of him. >>



Not his job to do the assists, he can do that but phil does not want that from him. Kobe had a horrible game yesterday, but you over-exaggerate it. He had a great game all up until the last 3 minutes. When the team would pass him the ball and clear the way for him to shoot the ball because they wanted him to get 40 too as the fans were cheering him on. The lakers won because they had a decent lead. If it came between losing a game and losing the streak, kobe would pick losing the streak.

sturm und drang
02-25-2003, 09:14 AM
<< If it came between losing a game and losing the streak, kobe would pick losing the streak. >>



I guess we can agree to disagree on that. I'm not so sure Kobe would choose the game; he seems awfully enamoured with himself and his streak.

All I'm saying is that I think Kobe is an extremely selfish player, one who does not bring out the best in his teammates-- or even attempt to do so. To my taste, for example, I'd take Shaq's line from the Sonics game (27 points on 9 of 16 shooting/17 rebounds/4 assists) over Kobe's (41 points/4 rebounds/3 assists) any day. I still think Shaq is BY FAR the most valuable player on the Lakers; as a Mavericks fan, I'd much rather encounter a Shaq-less Lakers in the playoffs than a Kobe-less Lakers.

LRB
02-25-2003, 10:00 AM
<< I'd much rather encounter a Shaq-less Lakers in the playoffs than a Kobe-less Lakers. >>



I totally agree with you this one Sturm. Kobe can put up big numbers, but it's Shaq that makes the Lakers an elite team. Good thing for us and the league is that Shaq keeps putting the weight on that big toe if his.

Subliminal012
02-25-2003, 06:58 PM
<<

<< If it came between losing a game and losing the streak, kobe would pick losing the streak. >>



I guess we can agree to disagree on that. I'm not so sure Kobe would choose the game; he seems awfully enamoured with himself and his streak.

All I'm saying is that I think Kobe is an extremely selfish player, one who does not bring out the best in his teammates-- or even attempt to do so. To my taste, for example, I'd take Shaq's line from the Sonics game (27 points on 9 of 16 shooting/17 rebounds/4 assists) over Kobe's (41 points/4 rebounds/3 assists) any day. I still think Shaq is BY FAR the most valuable player on the Lakers; as a Mavericks fan, I'd much rather encounter a Shaq-less Lakers in the playoffs than a Kobe-less Lakers. >>



Trust me, i've followed kobe since his rookie year. The guy is not an egotistical guy, just got caught up in the moment and apologized right away to his teammates and phil. He never puts himself above another player nor trash talks them, he plays purely to play and his dedication is crazy ie he worked 5 hours in the gym then 5 hours just working on basketball in the off-season. He gained 15 pounds of muscle in the off-season and obviously has become more of a leader this year you can see it. He is a fierce competitor, he would def want to win the game he doesn't really care that much about how much he gets, put yourself in his shoes 24 year old guy about to tie with one of the greatest players ever and the fans are cheering you on and your team is passing you the ball and clearing the way. He just got caught up. How is kobe selfish? He did his triple-doubles wtih the team, but they wern't executing as well. So PHIL JACKSON the coach not kobe decided he should be aggressive and do what he needs to do with the ball and score and guess what? The team is winning instead of losing so whats so selfish about it? Obviously shaq is a need for the team, the whole team is made up around him. Kobe is essentail to the Lakers, without him they would've missed the playoffs. It was his run that got them back into the run, he had a streak in january and was named player of the month then he started his current one.

Egoslavia
03-07-2003, 02:38 AM
Someday comparing T-mac to Kobe will be much like when they used to compare Drexler to Jordan. T-Mac doesn't have Kobe's fire or intensity on the court and isn't as dedicated as Kobe. If Kobe was a one man show I shudder to think what his stats would be...they would be truly insane.

Nash13
03-07-2003, 02:14 PM
If Kobe was a one man show, his team would not be a playoff team. That fact had already been proved at the beginning of the season when they were 3-10 w/o Shaq.

roadrunner
03-08-2003, 04:28 PM
Tmac...Although extremely talented, I think Kobe is one of the most selfish NBA players in the league. I think this is evident by the Lakers record when Shaq is not playing. He would not have 3 rings if it were not for the fact that he plays alongside the most dominant big man of his era.

Subliminal012
03-11-2003, 01:05 AM
<< Tmac...Although extremely talented, I think Kobe is one of the most selfish NBA players in the league. I think this is evident by the Lakers record when Shaq is not playing. He would not have 3 rings if it were not for the fact that he plays alongside the most dominant big man of his era. >>



what are you talking about? Kobe is the reason the lakers are back in the playoff run. Your right kobe is the selfish guy who is 11th in the nba in assists.