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View Full Version : ticket is reporting.. bucks and timberpups trade


aexchange
06-27-2003, 01:35 PM
cassell and ervin johnson
for
anthony peeler and joe smith

Drbio
06-27-2003, 01:36 PM
Interesting that the Tpuppies would dump Joe Smith in this the first year that they have a first round pick again because of him. Ironic huh?

Mandyahl
06-27-2003, 01:41 PM
milwaukee drafting ford makes some more sense in light of this trade.

Ummmmm Ok
06-27-2003, 01:47 PM
the Bucks must be trying to cut payroll, because surely they can get more for Cassell than Peeler and Smith, but maybe I am wrong. i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif

Mandyahl
06-27-2003, 01:50 PM
i guess maybe they are trying to get younger too. it does seem like they could have gotten more for cassell, but i guess the fact that he's old hurts a lot.

Tony tha Mavs fan
06-27-2003, 02:31 PM
why would the timberwolves do that trade when they still have troy hudson, i thought he was one the big stories this year in the playoffs vs the Lakers. I guess Cassell is a better Point Guard than Hudson, but i dont understand why the TimberWolves would do that, unless it's to go against the combo of Nash and Van Exel or Bobby Jackson and Mike Bibby.

Tony tha Mavs fan
06-27-2003, 02:34 PM
Smith, Peeler to Bucks for Cassell, Johnson

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Associated Press


MINNEAPOLIS -- The Minnesota Timberwolves traded forward Joe Smith and guard Anthony Peeler to the Milwaukee Bucks on Friday for guard Sam Cassell and center Ervin Johnson.


Cassell


Cassell, 33, averaged 19.7 points per game for the Bucks last season, his 10th year in the league. He became expendable for Milwaukee when the Bucks acquired veteran Gary Payton from Seattle last season.

"We want to put players on the floor, and that's what Sammy is," Timberwolves coach Flip Saunders said.

The Timberwolves expect Cassell to play alongside current point guard Troy Hudson as well as to relieve Hudson at the point.

Johnson, 35, averaged 2.2 points per game last year for the Bucks as a backup.

Smith missed 26 games to injuries last season for the Wolves, his eighth year in the league. He averaged 7.5 points and five rebounds per game.

Peeler, Minnesota's all-time 3-point field goal leader, averaged 7.7 points per game last season.

madape
06-27-2003, 04:25 PM
Damn nice trade for the T-pups.

MFFL
06-27-2003, 04:38 PM
I guess this means that Payton is staying with the Bucks.

Tony tha Mavs fan
06-27-2003, 04:42 PM
damn timberwolves got a damn good deal , it looks like they are finally serious about surrounding KG with some talent.

mavsfanforever
06-27-2003, 06:05 PM
Tpups have just become a very tough team. Sam Cassell gives them something they did not have. He is good offensively and clutch player and also is a better defender than any mavs players at that position. Ervin Johnson , according to me will turn out like the Vin Baker situation though.

The only good thing about this trade that strikes me is that Payton should probably be signed by bucks. This means Lakers will not have Payton and thats always a good news.

nowitzki_prophecy
06-27-2003, 06:32 PM
the T-pupps now have cassel on the point,troy H on the 2,Wally world on 3,KG on 4,and if they manage,they'll have Rasho on 5.
sounds like one hell of a team.

Just211
06-27-2003, 10:29 PM
just imagine if they do the proposed Brandon for Derek Anderson and Patterson deal

PG: Cassell/Hudson
SG:Anderson/ Lopez*
SF: Wally/ Patterson/Ebi/Gill*
PF: Garnett/Trent*
C: Nesterovic*/Jackson/Johnson

they have a lot of FA's (*) but with those moves, they could still trade Hudson or Wally if necesary

Not an awesome lineup, but more talent than they've had

Drbio
06-28-2003, 12:05 AM
The pups have to start making moves like this to appease KG I think. Otherwise he may bolt.

Nash13
06-28-2003, 12:46 AM
Why is everyone assuming that Cassell would start over Hudson? Hudson had a better regular season and playoff season. Hudson actually does know how to step it up against good teams, Cassell just whines a lot. Hudson is younger and quicker, it would make more sense for him to start.

mavsfanforever
06-28-2003, 12:53 AM
I think cassell will play along with hudson. Cassell is probably their second or third best player in the team now. He will start and hudson will run the point.

nowitzki_prophecy
06-28-2003, 05:13 AM
Why is everyone assuming that Cassell would start over Hudson? Hudson had a better regular season and playoff season. Hudson actually does know how to step it up against good teams, Cassell just whines a lot. Hudson is younger and quicker, it would make more sense for him to start.

cause Hudson is a natural SG,he played the point do to their lack of PG.

Epitome22
06-28-2003, 10:33 AM
and Cassel had a better regular season than Hudson anyway

MavKikiNYC
06-28-2003, 11:26 AM
Hudson, at 6-1, is a more natural PG than SG, and his game is more of a PG's game as well.

Cassell, I think, will probably be more of a backup.

nowitzki_prophecy
06-28-2003, 01:43 PM
Hudson, at 6-1, is a more natural PG than SG, and his game is more of a PG's game as well.

Cassell, I think, will probably be more of a backup.

hua?to say Troy.H is more a PG than an SG is argumentive,but to asy Troy.H is better than cassell,and cassell will only be a back-up is wrong.
cassell is a better PG than troy stats wise,and in my opinion also in the way he activates his team.
this whole arguement is unnecessery since i think both will be starting.

Nash13
06-28-2003, 02:10 PM
Cassell is a better eastern conference point guard. They both play the same to me. The first thing they look for is a shot instead of passing to someone else, which is what a point guard is supposed to do. So either both of them should be 2 guard, or both should be point guards.

MavKikiNYC
06-28-2003, 06:10 PM
hua?to say Troy.H is more a PG than an SG is argumentive,but to asy Troy.H is better than cassell,and cassell will only be a back-up is wrong.
cassell is a better PG than troy stats wise,and in my opinion also in the way he activates his team.
this whole arguement is unnecessery since i think both will be starting.

A couple of things, NP.

First, Hudson ACTUALLY PLAYED PG much if not most of this year for the T-Wolves, paired usually with Sczerbiak, although also some with Peeler and Gill. Don't know how many T-Wolf games you saw this year, but Hudson was running the point in all of the 10 or so that I saw.

Second, Hudson's game is typical, standard PG-issue--ball-handler, offense-setter, penetrator, break-runner, with some ability to pressure the ball defensively. At 6-1, he would have natural matchup disadvantages, both offensively and defensively, with approximately 98% of the league's shooting guards.

Third, I don't believe that I ever offered the opinion that he was a better PG than Cassell. What I do see is that Hudson was the starter last year, knows the T-Wolves schemes, and has established a familiarity with his teammates' style of play. Cassell, who will be 34 in November, has always been an above-average scorer at PG, but has NOT always been a consistent leader, which is, in part, why George Karl has been trying for the better part of two years to trade him. At 6-3, Cassell has generally been an average-to-adequate defender at PG. But as players age into their mid-30s, they often begin to lose a step that prevents them from being effective at pressuring the ball. It is true though that Saunders's zone schemes might be able to compensate for any loss of quickness that Cassell may experience in the next couple of years.

I would be surprised to see Saunders go with a two-PG backcourt as a primary set though, and the 6-1 Hudson and the 6-3 Cassell would present as many matchup challenges for the T-Wolves as they would for opponents. OTOH, Saunders may be looking at developing something to counter the Mavericks' SmallBall, which, though I detest it, has been pretty effective against the T-Wolves.

But from what I've seen of Cassell lately, my guess is that he would best be used similar to the way Rudy T used him when he broke in with Rockets back in '94--as a change-up PG, capable of being a primary scoring threat for short stretches of a game.

nowitzki_prophecy
06-28-2003, 07:31 PM
well,when your starting PG is injured and might finished his career,and your other PG is Igor Rakocevic,you dont really have a choice,i would be surprised if you saw any body else running the point in those games.
another thing,running the point doesn necessaraly makes you a point guard,it makes you the best solution at that moment,like Baron Davis,who's style of play is more like a 2Guard,but they dont have strong back-ups at PG,and he delivers the assists,and they want wesly in the line-up.

6'1 is short but not that rare for a SG,if AI,B.Davis and NICK VAN EXEL can play the 2guard,T.Hudson,at 6'1 should manage to do so.
besides,if he's a good perimeter defender it shouldn't matter.

i agree with the assesment that Cassell is average-to-adequate defender,but i doubt T.H is any better,he actualy has 0.4 steals per game less than Cassell,so the oposite might be true.
i dont know why your even refering to Cassells age,he's playing as good as he ever did,and for RIGHT NOW,he is the best PG to run the offense of Miny.
if you wanna say your preparing the team for years to come,years withour Cassell,thats something else,but to say he's old at the age of 33,and it reflects in his defensive quickns is not true.
schemes and familiarity with his teammates' style of play could be achieven in less than a day,and hardly a factor.
its not unheard of,of players just coming off a trade and start producing.

like i said,i dont think Cassell was brought in to be a strong back-up,that can get the dots on the board when you need him.
im pretty sure he'll,i think they wanna see how he matches up with KG,and use Hudsen shooting abileties and penetrations at the 2.

we have a 6'4 PG,and most of the times a 6'1 2guard(i consider nick a 2guard),and our mismatches are down in the post,and rarely with the 1 and 2 spot.
maybe it will creat problems with Minnasotas style of play,and WILL create mismatches,im not saying its not possible,in that case i think Rudy.T would rather Start with Cassell and some how get them to divide the minutes or something,but i just cant see Cassell coming off the bench.

MavKikiNYC
06-28-2003, 08:15 PM
NP, you see basketball from a very interesting perspective, though a very different one from me. For one thing, I think 6-1 is extraordinarily small for a SG in today's NBA. And who is the Mavericks' 6-4 PG? I hope you're not referring to Nash there, because the low-down is that he's just a shade over 6.2.

Cassell's age is a relevant factor, particularly in light of the fact that you're proposing playing him at a position that puts a premium on speed and quickness. Cassell is reaching the point where he is going to rely more on experience and knowledge of the game to be an effective defender on the point. A player like Payton, who has been an outstanding defender both in terms of physical ability and technique, can sometimes squeeze out a couple of more years of high-level play, after his skills have begun to erode. Cassell has never been more than average. That he may have averaged .4 SPG more than Hudson last year is not necessarily revealing of any defensive prowess; it could just as easily indicate that he is a gambler on defense, at his best in a hully-gully, open-court style of play where he can come up with steals more easily. That, however, is NOT the same thing as good, stick-to-'em man-on defense. Neither Cassell nor Hudson will be mistaken for Payton. Hudson, however, at least has Kronos on his side.

As for a player's coming off a trade, becoming familiar with his teammate's games in less than a day, and starting to produce immediately--no other way to say it, but this is just wack, particularly for a PG, who has to direct a team's offensive sets, and know where the scorers and shooters on the team like to receive the ball.

I do, however, see the logic in saying that just because a person PLAYS PG doesn't mean he IS a PG; analgous to the way that NVE playing in the backcourt with Nash, doesn't mean that either of them are 'playing' SG. Nellie is running an unorthodox set in these situations and conventional designations become somewhat meaningless. When the Mavericks go small, they tend to get beaten on the boards. This disadvantage comes not just from the chronic mismatches endured in the frontcourt, but also by eliminating Fin's rebounding advantage at the SG-spot. Don't want to let this devlolve into a balls-out diatribe against SmallBall, but the point is that I think that Hudson-Cassell shows less promise than NVE-Nash, and the more Saunders goes that route, the more it should be to opponents' advantage.

nowitzki_prophecy
06-29-2003, 05:14 AM
NP, you see basketball from a very interesting perspective, though a very different one from me. For one thing, I think 6-1 is extraordinarily small for a SG in today's NBA. And who is the Mavericks' 6-4 PG? I hope you're not referring to Nash there, because the low-down is that he's just a shade over 6.2.

Even better,it only proves my point more clearly,that guards height is not as importent as Forwards/Centers height,and sometimes may be even irelevent.

I said it before,i dont know why your making Cassell' age an issue,i dont see any change in his defensive efforts,or style of defense.
He never was an Up-In-Your-Face defender like GP,but he manages to keep his step with the offense.
His age hasnt affected his defense that drasticly,and since T.H is somewhat of a the same level defender,its not an issue if you want to choose one over the other.


As for a player's coming off a trade, becoming familiar with his teammate's games in less than a day, and starting to produce immediately--no other way to say it, but this is just wack, particularly for a PG, who has to direct a team's offensive sets, and know where the scorers and shooters on the team like to receive the ball.

Thats why they have the summer,he'll have many practices with the T-Pupps before playing a game.


I do, however, see the logic in saying that just because a person PLAYS PG doesn't mean he IS a PG; analgous to the way that NVE playing in the backcourt with Nash, doesn't mean that either of them are 'playing' SG. Nellie is running an unorthodox set in these situations and conventional designations become somewhat meaningless. When the Mavericks go small, they tend to get beaten on the boards. This disadvantage comes not just from the chronic mismatches endured in the frontcourt, but also by eliminating Fin's rebounding advantage at the SG-spot. Don't want to let this devlolve into a balls-out diatribe against SmallBall, but the point is that I think that Hudson-Cassell shows less promise than NVE-Nash, and the more Saunders goes that route, the more it should be to opponents' advantage.

Whats true about the Mavericks,isnt necessarily true about the T-Pupps,if their back court will be a 6'1 and a 6'3,than their frontcourt will be 6'7,6'11 and 7'0.
The obvious majority of rebounds,offensive and defensive,came from KG and Rasho,i think Wally had 5-6 aswell,so for rebounding i dont see this move changing the way the Pupps rebound.
HOWEVER,a mismatch in this case could mean that taller SG will shoot over Hudson,like they often to do Nick.
Its still a very low percantage shot for most SG,but i have no doubt in my mind that Saunders doesnt want to see Hudson guarding Kobe.
Some SGs know how to take that adventage,even in the perimeter,there arent many of them but its there.

MavKikiNYC
06-29-2003, 08:26 AM
Even better,it only proves my point more clearly,that guards height is not as importent as Forwards/Centers height,and sometimes may be even irelevent.

NP, I have sent this statement to the FBI National Laboratory for Forensic Semantics--Parsing Division, and the lab report has come back negative.

Height matters--whether it's a 6.1 player trying to guard a 6.4 player, or a 6.9 player trying to guard a 7-footer. The bigger player almost always has a post-up and rebounding advantage.

Age matters--Cassell is reaching the point where he's going to slow down. Hudson is still young enough and physically capable enough of applying reasonable defensive pressure.

Familiarity matters--Cassell will get a training camp, but Hudson already has a year with the team.


Like I said, you see things differently. Basketball must be a very different game through your eyes.

nowitzki_prophecy
06-29-2003, 01:30 PM
guess so man,its just very subjective.