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Old 09-23-2020, 06:53 AM   #81
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Iíd much rather keep #31 and use it either on the guy with most potential (for example if someone like Jahmius Ramsey falls) or an NBA-ready guy like Paul Reed. No need to pay Frank over $6 million and give up a pick.
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Old 09-23-2020, 09:24 AM   #82
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Also I think we had him on our summer league team or something at some point? Or am I mistaken? Either way, Iím sure heís on the radar. I guess if we trade one or both of our picks in a cap clearing move there is at least a shot we have a FA target in mind. Also possible of course that itís for Giannis
He was a Mavs summer leaguer for a bit. Granted that was super early version of him and we were more focused on the asian sensation .
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Old 09-23-2020, 09:36 AM   #83
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Iíd much rather keep #31 and use it either on the guy with most potential (for example if someone like Jahmius Ramsey falls) or an NBA-ready guy like Paul Reed. No need to pay Frank over $6 million and give up a pick.
This.

There are great players we can't afford and won't be available for 31 (and we can't absorb huge contracts anyway as we're over the cap) and there are mediocre players like Frank

There is a lot of talent in this draft. Maybe not a Giannis, but some solid starters and all those guys are on bargain deals for less than 1milion. For a team in fiscal trouble like we are, that's super important.

Plus, older players often fall so a guy who could be 1-15 can easily fall to the bottom of the first or top of the second because of age, and those players are more likely to immediately contribute like Josh Howard.
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Old 09-23-2020, 10:27 AM   #84
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Will there be players available at #18 or #31 who will end up being players we like? Absolutely.

Will they end up drafting those players? ...50/50 chance, if you're generous, and I don't mean that to bash the Mavs, I think it's a crap shoot for most teams.

If there's not a trade they like, then by all means, they should shoot their draft shots and hope for the best. I agree that they failed to value the draft enough during the last time around the block, and I agree that generally, they need to do better with that.

But if there IS a trade they like, as a playoff team, for a known commodity, and one that they think moves the needle on their future prospects for success, I don't think they hesitate.

#18 and #31 look good before the draft, but could very easily be the next Justin Anderson and Satnam Singh.

Point is, I won't care whether they make the picks or trade them, as long as the picks are used to add something of significant value to the team.

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Old 09-24-2020, 01:26 PM   #85
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This.

There are great players we can't afford and won't be available for 31 (and we can't absorb huge contracts anyway as we're over the cap) and there are mediocre players like Frank

There is a lot of talent in this draft. Maybe not a Giannis, but some solid starters and all those guys are on bargain deals for less than 1milion. For a team in fiscal trouble like we are, that's super important.

Plus, older players often fall so a guy who could be 1-15 can easily fall to the bottom of the first or top of the second because of age, and those players are more likely to immediately contribute like Josh Howard.
Giannis was a high draft pick. No way a prospect like that is falling to 31.
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Old 09-24-2020, 01:52 PM   #86
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Fish is saying that there are rumors that the Mavs are interested in Harrell. I’m guessing he was one of the players rolling his eyes at PG, when he gave the speech about everyone returning next season.
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Old 09-24-2020, 02:03 PM   #87
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Fish is saying that there are rumors that the Mavs are interested in Harrell. Iím guessing he was one of the players rolling his eyes at PG, when he gave the speech about everyone returning next season.
Yuck. Plays no D. Canít shoot. Due to make something north of the MLE. Pass.
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Old 09-24-2020, 02:03 PM   #88
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Giannis was a high draft pick. No way a prospect like that is falling to 31.
15 is considered a high pick? I politely disagree with that.
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Old 09-24-2020, 02:03 PM   #89
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Giannis was a high draft pick. No way a prospect like that is falling to 31.
Giannis was mid first-round. We are drafting mid first round.

Also Draymond Green, Rodman, Gasol, Ginobli, and Jokic were all available their years at 31.

Let's not pretend that it's impossible to get stars with the 18th and 31st pick.

Also, we don't even need stars. We need solid starters with talent who can complement our superstar. A guy who can play D/rebound/hit an open shot is all we need and there are at least two dozen of those guys in the draft that are going to be contributors. It's not insane to believe that one of them will fall past 30.
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Old 09-24-2020, 02:04 PM   #90
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Fish is saying that there are rumors that the Mavs are interested in Harrell. Iím guessing he was one of the players rolling his eyes at PG, when he gave the speech about everyone returning next season.
Hard pass on him. I don't even want him for league min.
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Old 09-24-2020, 02:07 PM   #91
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Hard pass on him. I don't even want him for league min.
Good news is that it's Fish, so when he says it's happening, it's guaranteed not to.

When was the last time Fish was right about something?
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Old 09-24-2020, 02:20 PM   #92
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Good news is that it's Fish, so when he says it's happening, it's guaranteed not to.

When was the last time Fish was right about something?
Solid question. I can't remember.
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Old 09-24-2020, 02:50 PM   #93
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I think Fish is very tiresome, and that the complaints about him are more than justified, but to be fair, he DOES have a direct line to person(s) in the Mavs FO, and generally, when he reports that they have interest in a player, he's usually correct. He was on the Kemba Walker stuff way before anyone else last summer, just for example.

I would have to read what he said to know whether it's something he actually knows or just clickbait, but I'm a little scared right now, because this is way different than Harrell's agent leaking it to create offer competition. If Fish is reporting it, it's probably because either Donnie or Cuban told him to.

I DO NOT WANT HARRELL. PUKE.

EDIT: Just found the article. He's fairly careful to note that it's a Shams/NBA rumor. Usually when he actually has something he can't help but to bang you over the head 5 times about how he's the only one who has it (even when he isn't) so I'd say this is clickbait.

PHEW

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Old 09-24-2020, 03:37 PM   #94
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Yes Fish said there were rumors, he was not reporting it himself. If we go by the “Fish is always wrong” line of thinking, I guess that makes it more likely to be true.
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Old 09-24-2020, 03:48 PM   #95
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Giannis was mid first-round. We are drafting mid first round.

Also Draymond Green, Rodman, Gasol, Ginobli, and Jokic were all available their years at 31.

Let's not pretend that it's impossible to get stars with the 18th and 31st pick.

Also, we don't even need stars. We need solid starters with talent who can complement our superstar. A guy who can play D/rebound/hit an open shot is all we need and there are at least two dozen of those guys in the draft that are going to be contributors. It's not insane to believe that one of them will fall past 30.
The context of the discussion was trading the #31 pick, though. You also said this in an earlier post:
ďPeople are super quick to want to trade picks for mediocre players like Frank, but are also super quick to trash Cuban for not going after someone like Giannis in the second round.ď

Giannis was not a second rounder. Heís not relevant in a discussion about trading #31 for Frank.
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Old 09-24-2020, 04:12 PM   #96
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Fish is saying that there are rumors that the Mavs are interested in Harrell. Iím guessing he was one of the players rolling his eyes at PG, when he gave the speech about everyone returning next season.
Your first mistake was Mike Fisher.
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Old 09-24-2020, 07:03 PM   #97
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Your first mistake was Mike Fisher.
I didnít make any mistakes. I said Fish said there were rumors.
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Old 09-25-2020, 02:40 AM   #98
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I just made another mistake. I watched the video you posted. It told me that there were rumors that the Mavs were interested in Harrell.
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Old 09-25-2020, 02:26 PM   #99
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Fish is saying that there are rumors that the Mavs are interested in Harrell. Iím guessing he was one of the players rolling his eyes at PG, when he gave the speech about everyone returning next season.
Fish knows nothing
Fish wants money aka clicks
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Old 09-25-2020, 04:12 PM   #100
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Old 09-26-2020, 02:27 AM   #101
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------
Disclaimer: I believe if Giannis tells the Mavs he wants to come here, we will figure out how to fit his max salary into our cap sheet. It almost certainly means we're losing 2-3 of DFS/THJ/Seth/Maxi, but that is worth the cost of adding an elite player in his prime. If Giannis does choose to come here as a free agent, what we do this summer is a little irrelevant since adding a $40M+ per year free agent often requires you to strip your roster down to the studs. Ideally, everyone on the roster but Luka is available if there's a real chance at improving our team, but I think we can all agree that a Porzingis trade this offseason would be pretty shocking.

Second Disclaimer: I am currently fueled by edibles
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I'd be all-in on trading #31/Jackson for Ntilikina. The dude is only 22 and has very real All-Defense potential (FWIW I feel the same way here about possibly acquiring Kris Dunn via a sign-and-trade). Ntilikina might have gone in the top 10 of this draft. #31 and a guy we don't really care about for him is a steal. Hell, I'd even trade #18 for him and count on him improving as a shooter with more open looks. All of this is moot though, because I doubt the Knicks would even trade him for #18. Knicks fans seem to think the new front office is high on him.

I'd do almost whatever we could to turn #18 into either an immediate starter or a potential long-term rotation player. I wouldn't be opposed to taking on a 3-year deal even if it's a guy we'd have to figure out how to trade next offseason. We have to set high expectations for the 2020-21 (or w/e) season and add the requisite talent to do so. I'm not opposed to keeping both of our picks if we can find players that can contribute pretty quickly, but I don't know if that's the best use of the assets.

Guys I think might be available in trades this summer that we should be interested in at the right price: Jrue Holiday, Aaron Gordon, Chris Paul, Otto Porter Jr. We probably need to include THJ in a trade for any of those guys for cap reasons, but they could all fix problems with our roster. And as you can see from the list of possible MLE guys below, I think our best opportunity to improve this summer is through trades.

MLE and under guys who could have real value to us (assume options not picked up): Derrick Jones Jr, Garrett Temple, Torrey Craig, David Nwaba, Justin Holiday, JaMychal Green, KCP, Michael Carter-Williams, Glenn Robinson III, Harry Giles. I'd also be open to bringing Courtney Lee and Michael Kidd-Gilchrist back too, though I doubt either guy would have a big role with us.


I think we need to put serious consideration into adding at least one new starter among the 2/3/4 spot, and it's okay to say that DFS/Seth/Maxi/THJ are more suited to come in off the bench on a team with deep playoff aspirations. If we could add a Jrue or CP3 that can check the boxes of hitting open shots/defending opposing PGs/acting as a secondary playmaker, that is the most direct path to improving our late-game execution and putting the right guy next to Luka in the backcourt. If we can't get a guy like that, then versatile wings like Gordon and OPJ would be modest but real improvements with manageable salaries. If those guys aren't really available, then I think we should bring most of the current team back and add a couple of immediate rotation guys with the MLE.
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Old 09-26-2020, 04:20 PM   #102
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------
Disclaimer: I believe if Giannis tells the Mavs he wants to come here, we will figure out how to fit his max salary into our cap sheet. It almost certainly means we're losing 2-3 of DFS/THJ/Seth/Maxi, but that is worth the cost of adding an elite player in his prime. If Giannis does choose to come here as a free agent, what we do this summer is a little irrelevant since adding a $40M+ per year free agent often requires you to strip your roster down to the studs. Ideally, everyone on the roster but Luka is available if there's a real chance at improving our team, but I think we can all agree that a Porzingis trade this offseason would be pretty shocking.
This. Everyone is able to manufacture cap space when they need to, it's just a matter of what they have to give up. The same holds true for us.

I do not want to trade Porzingis unless it's to bring in Giannis. We'll likely get cents on the dollar for a guy who has injury concerns, but also he is a hard working 7-foot elite two-way player.


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I'd be all-in on trading #31/Jackson for Ntilikina. The dude is only 22 and has very real All-Defense potential (FWIW I feel the same way here about possibly acquiring Kris Dunn via a sign-and-trade). Ntilikina might have gone in the top 10 of this draft. #31 and a guy we don't really care about for him is a steal. Hell, I'd even trade #18 for him and count on him improving as a shooter with more open looks. All of this is moot though, because I doubt the Knicks would even trade him for #18. Knicks fans seem to think the new front office is high on him.
Couldn't disagree more. Surrounding Luka with non-shooters is setting him up to fail.

1) Luka needs spacing to initiate the offense because he doesn't have an elite first step.
2) You're potentially negating one of Luka's best traits (passing).
3) You're bringing in a one-position player (PG) who isn't great off the ball.
4) He would likely be a one-year rental if you're planning on pursuing Giannis because of his qualifying offer cap hold... you would have to renounce him to make space.


Two rookies tied up for years on cheaper deals makes way more sense for us IMO. Obviously draft is a crapshoot, but give me a guy like Desmond Bane for $2 million a year over Ntlikina anyday.

Edit: All else being equal I'd still rather have Immanuel Quickley than Frank Ntlikina.
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Old 09-26-2020, 10:03 PM   #103
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Fish knows nothing
Fish wants money aka clicks
They all want money and clicks. I posted it because I hadnít seen it anywhere else, and he wasnít writing it as if he knew anything, so I thought maybe someone here had seen the source of what he was talking about.
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Old 09-28-2020, 09:16 AM   #104
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This. Everyone is able to manufacture cap space when they need to, it's just a matter of what they have to give up. The same holds true for us.

I do not want to trade Porzingis unless it's to bring in Giannis. We'll likely get cents on the dollar for a guy who has injury concerns, but also he is a hard working 7-foot elite two-way player.




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Couldn't disagree more. Surrounding Luka with non-shooters is setting him up to fail.

1) Luka needs spacing to initiate the offense because he doesn't have an elite first step.
2) You're potentially negating one of Luka's best traits (passing).
3) You're bringing in a one-position player (PG) who isn't great off the ball.
4) He would likely be a one-year rental if you're planning on pursuing Giannis because of his qualifying offer cap hold... you would have to renounce him to make space.


Two rookies tied up for years on cheaper deals makes way more sense for us IMO. Obviously draft is a crapshoot, but give me a guy like Desmond Bane for $2 million a year over Ntlikina anyday.

Edit: All else being equal I'd still rather have Immanuel Quickley than Frank Ntlikina.
Yea, Frankly I don't think there would be a big drop off defensively between Bane and Frank. The plus side is Bane is a fantastic shooter and relentless off the ball.
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Old 09-28-2020, 10:09 AM   #105
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Interesting how everyone's take on Ntlikina is different. He's very polarizing.
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Old 09-28-2020, 10:31 AM   #106
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Interesting how everyone's take on Ntlikina is different. He's very polarizing.
I view him as a low impact player. Not sure how anyone could justify giving up assets for him when he doesn't impact a game at all really. He is a good passer and defender, but those are traits with an otherwise very timid player. If you aren't aggressive in today's NBA, then you just won't last.
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Old 09-28-2020, 10:43 AM   #107
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I view him as a low impact player. Not sure how anyone could justify giving up assets for him when he doesn't impact a game at all really. He is a good passer and defender, but those are traits with an otherwise very timid player. If you aren't aggressive in today's NBA, then you just won't last.
I think he's a low impact player because he's being played at the wrong position. He's a 3&D wing, not a PG. Obviously, the "3" part needs to improve, but his shot looks better than DFS's did a couple of years back, and I just feel like the second you convince him he's an off ball player, the whole game opens up for him in realistic ways.

The trade suggested was Justin Jackson, who will not be in the NBA much longer, and 31. Basically, if you think Ntlikina is better than what you'll get at 31, you take that. That's the variable.
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Old 09-28-2020, 10:59 AM   #108
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I think he's a low impact player because he's being played at the wrong position. He's a 3&D wing, not a PG. Obviously, the "3" part needs to improve, but his shot looks better than DFS's did a couple of years back, and I just feel like the second you convince him he's an off ball player, the whole game opens up for him in realistic ways.

The trade suggested was Justin Jackson, who will not be in the NBA much longer, and 31. Basically, if you think Ntlikina is better than what you'll get at 31, you take that. That's the variable.
Would you trade Jalen Brunson for him straight up? Brunson was picked at 33 and already has had a bigger footprint on the NBA than Frank IMO. So on one hand you talk about the variable of "only" giving up Jackson and 31, and then you realize that's barely what Frank is worth. Frank is a player that is of early second round talent...if that.
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Old 09-28-2020, 11:18 AM   #109
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Would you trade Jalen Brunson for him straight up? Brunson was picked at 33 and already has had a bigger footprint on the NBA than Frank IMO. So on one hand you talk about the variable of "only" giving up Jackson and 31, and then you realize that's barely what Frank is worth. Frank is a player that is of early second round talent...if that.
NOOOOOOO, of course not! Brunson is a much better player now, and it's easy to see what he's becoming as a player. Brunson actually IS an "asset." I think it's possible that Frank N ends up being way better than Brunson, but it's also VERY possible he does not. Likely, even. I would not trade Brunson for Ntlikina.

If you KNOW there's a Brunson waiting for you at #31, sure, take him. But I heard a GM just the other day say something like "if you're hitting on 20% of your draft picks, you're one of the best GM's in the league." I definitely don't view Brunson as "this is what you're going to get early in the 2nd round."

I guess I'm just saying that I think Frank N's upside is less risky (and closer to the present, developmentally) than the chance of finding a winner at #31. Others might disagree, of course!

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Old 09-28-2020, 11:25 AM   #110
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I'll also add that I didn't mean to give the impression that I thought the suggested trade was a steal for the Mavs, necessarily. I agree that it's a realistic imagining of what the going rate for Frank N might be.

I'm just saying that I'd do it.
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Old 09-28-2020, 01:10 PM   #111
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NOOOOOOO, of course not! Brunson is a much better player now, and it's easy to see what he's becoming as a player. Brunson actually IS an "asset." I think it's possible that Frank N ends up being way better than Brunson, but it's also VERY possible he does not. Likely, even. I would not trade Brunson for Ntlikina.

If you KNOW there's a Brunson waiting for you at #31, sure, take him. But I heard a GM just the other day say something like "if you're hitting on 20% of your draft picks, you're one of the best GM's in the league." I definitely don't view Brunson as "this is what you're going to get early in the 2nd round."

I guess I'm just saying that I think Frank N's upside is less risky (and closer to the present, developmentally) than the chance of finding a winner at #31. Others might disagree, of course!
I guess this all comes back to the value of the draft. Imagine if Miami hadn't picked Herro at 13 because the history of picks at that number don't usually come out well. I just don't really care much about what happened in other drafts because they are all so very different in talent prospects.

Obviously, 31 is unlikely to land you a star, but a good GM should be able to get you a decent contributing role player there. And IMO, you can absolutely get an impact player at 18 in this draft. I know I'm digressing a bit, but to me it's all about whether the Mavs will value the draft or not this year.
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Old 09-28-2020, 02:35 PM   #112
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I trade Brunson for Frank in a heartbeat
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Old 09-28-2020, 02:47 PM   #113
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I trade Brunson for Frank in a heartbeat
What is the logic there? You just don't view Brunson as a positive?
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Old 09-28-2020, 03:31 PM   #114
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What is the logic there? You just don't view Brunson as a positive?
We need defense more than offense. Frank can take any guy from 1-3 so we can hide Luka in the easier matchup.

I also believe his shot isnt broken. He also had some big clutch moments in the worldcup. Brunson is pretty much a finished product. Solid but nothing more

So trade for Frank and then replace Brunson with Burke. Burke would love to stay anyway but we really dont need Brunson and Burke.

Luka/Burke/Frank/Seth is a nice mix at guard

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Old 09-28-2020, 03:40 PM   #115
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I trade Brunson for Frank in a heartbeat
That is really foolish in my opinion.

Brunson is a hell of an all-around player.

Frank has been a guy who often can't find PT on a terrible team desperate for a guard.
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Old 09-28-2020, 05:21 PM   #116
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We need defense more than offense. Frank can take any guy from 1-3 so we can hide Luka in the easier matchup.

I also believe his shot isnt broken. He also had some big clutch moments in the worldcup. Brunson is pretty much a finished product. Solid but nothing more

So trade for Frank and then replace Brunson with Burke. Burke would love to stay anyway but we really dont need Brunson and Burke.

Luka/Burke/Frank/Seth is a nice mix at guard
I like Frank.

The thing is, Brunson is actually a pretty nice defender, considering his experience.

The downside to Brunson is that while it's clear he's a nice backup PG and getting better, he doesn't do very well on the court WITH Luka.

Still, he's one of the better assets the Mavs have, and I think that's a pretty risky use of him.
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Old 09-28-2020, 05:49 PM   #117
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That is really foolish in my opinion.

Brunson is a hell of an all-around player.

Frank has been a guy who often can't find PT on a terrible team desperate for a guard.
Sorry, but your take is flawed.

You cant trash Franks offense but praise Brunson as "hell of an all-around player" when his defense stats are actually pretty terrible. And with little room for improvement due to his physical limitations.

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He averaged 2.4 rebounds, 0.4 steals, and 0.1 blocks per game this season. The rebounding rate is on par for a point guard, but the steals are well below average. The advanced metrics were not better. Brunson had 0.7 defensive win shares which ranked 246th in the NBA. His negative 0.9 defensive box score plus-minus was 354th. Brunson also finished 289th in ESPN’s defensive real plus-minus.
And that comes with him not guarding the prime guard opponents, something Frank does.

Brunson also shot 34.8% in his first season and 35.8% in his second. While playing in Ricks system together with Luka. But Frank with his 32.1% in the trashy trash trash Knicks "offense" is a lost cause?

I really dont care about the stats of Knicks Frank. France/Worldcup Frank is much more interesting and he showed his potential there. The guy is pretty much "improving 4% from downtown" away from being a high valued 3&D guard. And thats a must need with Luka on our team.

You always take this gamble. And the Mavs never had a problem to find quality backup guards who knows how to run the offense. Like i said they have allready a Brunson replacement in the pipeline (Burke).

Luka, Seth on his bargain contract for one of the best shooter...the Mavs cant afford more below average guard/perimeter defender. But they could find a perfect backcourt fit for Luka.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXYwkNKDLzs

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Old 09-28-2020, 05:55 PM   #118
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I think the divide with Frank is: some of us see him has having elite defensive traits, and the potential to be a good 3&D guy with some secondary playmaking capabilities. His shot isn’t “broken”. He’s still super young, but experienced. He’s a hard worker, good character guy. Sefant and I are pretty clearly in the trade for Frank camp haha.

That said, I would hesitate to give up Brunson for him. And I’m not a huge Brunson fan. But what he gives you on a cheap contract Is pretty nice. I agree with whoever said we’ve seen close to his ceiling. Just athletically and measurements-wise there are inherent limitations. I’ve made this comparison before but he is no Van Vleet. I trust that his shooting will come around, he’ll learn to be less of a ball stopper and that his defense will improve some even with more experience. But it’s important to also recognize part of his allure is his bargain contract. He’s a nice player without a ton of upside. I’d be fine with moving him if a good deal comes along. Not sure Frank is it, but trust the Mavs trading acumen to identify diamonds in the rough so to speak.

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Old 09-28-2020, 06:00 PM   #119
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Sorry, but your take is flawed.

You cant trash Franks offense but praise Brunson as "hell of an all-around player" when his defense stats are actually pretty terrible. And with little room for improvement due to his physical limitations.



And that comes with him not guarding the prime guard opponents, something Frank does.

Brunson also shot 34.8% in his first season and 35.8% in his second. While playing in Ricks system together with Luka. But Frank with his 32.1% in the trashy trash trash Knicks "offense" is a lost cause?

I really dont care about the stats of Knicks Frank. France/Worldcup Frank is much more interesting and he showed his potential there. The guy is pretty much "improving 4% from downtown" away from being a high valued 3&D guard. And thats a must need with Luka on our team.

You always take this gamble. And the Mavs never had a problem to find quality backup guards who knows how to run the offense. Like i said they have allready a Brunson replacement in the pipeline (Burke).

Luka, Seth on his bargain contract for one of the best shooter...the Mavs cant afford more below average guard/perimeter defender. But they could find a perfect backcourt fit for Luka.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXYwkNKDLzs
I agree with the idea that much of what Brunson brings is pretty replaceable. Every offseason there are Mudiay’s, Burkes, Monte Morris, Meltons of the world who seemingly come out of nowhere and who are capable backup PG. if we can get Burke for half the MLE and use Brunson in a trade that’s not a bad use of assets.

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Old 09-28-2020, 06:11 PM   #120
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Yeah Brunsons cheap contract is an argument but i absolutely expect that the Mavs could bring back Burke on a two year vetmin deal or the BAE. Like i said, Burke allready told that carlisle is the best coach he ever had and he loved when they picked him up for the bubble.

If you can replace Brunson and Brunson can net you a potential perfect 3&D backcourt partner for Luka (including his RFA rights), then you do it.
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