When Do the Experiments End and the Rotation Tightens Up? - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

NewMexiMav · 11-12-2019, 11:47 AM

We are 10 games in. Is there an end in sight to Rick's lineup shuffling and rotation experimenting?

I'm still not sure what the best starting lineup is, and maybe it doesn't matter, or it should fluctuate based on matchups.

However, I do think we've seen enough to know who should be seeing more time on the court and who should be seeing less.

Other than the big two (and KP has gotta break this slump soon), I think we need see a lot more Delon Wright. The dude can play and for sure needs to be on the court when Luka takes a breather because he keeps the ball moving and pushes the pace.

Maxi and DFS have both proven their worth on the defensive end and are adequate 3 point and transition bucket makers.

Jalen is the heir to the JJ "glue guy" spot and is generally a solid presence on the court.

I continue to be puzzled by the lack of burn for Justin Jackson. Good things seem to happen when he is on the court.

That leaves Powell, Seth and THJ. All three have frustrated me to no end. The pick and roll with Powell has not been clicking since his return from injury, and if that ain't working, then he becomes a big liability on the court. If Seth can't or won't shoot the 3 (and make it with some regularity), he doesn't help this team. And Hardaway has been doing a great Wes Matthews impersonation (but without the defense). He got torched on the defensive end multiple times last night.

I don't know if or how Carlisle is going to tighten the rotation, but I think it has to be done soon or we will continue to see a team that struggles to find a rhythm and remains inconsistent.

rmacomic · 11-12-2019, 12:26 PM

Between 20-30 games in, if any of the last 12 seasons are precedent.

Pretty much Rick's M.O, some seasons it works out (see JJB in 2011), sometimes it don't.

SMC0007 · 11-12-2019, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewMexiMav

We are 10 games in. Is there an end in sight to Rick's lineup shuffling and rotation experimenting?

I'm still not sure what the best starting lineup is, and maybe it doesn't matter, or it should fluctuate based on matchups.

However, I do think we've seen enough to know who should be seeing more time on the court and who should be seeing less.

Other than the big two (and KP has gotta break this slump soon), I think we need see a lot more Delon Wright. The dude can play and for sure needs to be on the court when Luka takes a breather because he keeps the ball moving and pushes the pace.

Maxi and DFS have both proven their worth on the defensive end and are adequate 3 point and transition bucket makers.

Jalen is the heir to the JJ "glue guy" spot and is generally a solid presence on the court.

I continue to be puzzled by the lack of burn for Justin Jackson. Good things seem to happen when he is on the court.

That leaves Powell, Seth and THJ. All three have frustrated me to no end. The pick and roll with Powell has not been clicking since his return from injury, and if that ain't working, then he becomes a big liability on the court. If Seth can't or won't shoot the 3 (and make it with some regularity), he doesn't help this team. And Hardaway has been doing a great Wes Matthews impersonation (but without the defense). He got torched on the defensive end multiple times last night.

I don't know if or how Carlisle is going to tighten the rotation, but I think it has to be done soon or we will continue to see a team that struggles to find a rhythm and remains inconsistent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aTxs-TljRU

I'm going to have to disagree about Powell. The PnR is what he really does well and did it well last night too. Hell if KP could do that his struggles wouldn't be so glaring.

I agree with Wright and JAX getting more time, regardless if it's starting or not. Boban too.

cutlerny313 · 11-12-2019, 01:15 PM

so far season is going good but not great. We are young and lack veteran presence in my opinion. No playoff veterans at all the can establish leadership and show the young players what winning plays are like.

Good seasons:
- Doncic : playing at MVP level. improved ft shooting, rebounding! too many 3pts at times and turnovers
- Kleber: playing solid defense, great 3pt shooting, rim protector! could be better rebounder
- Wright: shooting 3pt better than expected, solid defense, rebounder, great at driving to the basket. Needs to be more aggressive and look for his shot
Boban: speiciality player. does his job when his time is called.

Bad seasons:
Hardaway: shoots way to much at a bad %. Doesn't make plays for others. its shoot and that's it. Defense isn't good but is better than expected
Curry: not taking enough shots or hitting enough. Doesn't bring much to the team if he isn't shooting and hitting them.
DFS: not shooting good from the three or the ft line. Is a good defender but not a elite shut down guy to warrant bad shooting.
Powell: weak defender inside, needs to be tougher on the boards. hasn't shot 3pt at all which limits his game.
Brunson: not playing as well as last year. His shooting is down all across the board fg, 3pt and ft. isn't creating shots for others as good as last year. Inconsistent on defense when he could be much better.

Average season:
KP: playing well but inconsitant but to be expected after missing so much time. Solid 3pt shooter and rim protector. Needs to better rebounder for his size and hit is Free throws. Needs better post game against smaller players.
Jackson: shooting the ball well, average rebounder. gets lost when out there, needs to be more aggressive and bring solid defense to get more minutes. Has potential

Non factors:
lee: shouldn't be playing,
barea: good for a burst of offense. more a speciality player now

We have solid players but not high level talent. Team doesn't have true identity yet. Not strong defensively, not great 3pt shooting but we shoot a lot of them, needs to be more tough inside. We do have good playmakers with doncic, wright, Brunson.

I do see us as a 7-8th seed playoff team. But we lack the 15-18pt per game 3rd scorer to go with luka and kp. and We need to be way better defensively.

I say by game 20-25 you will see a regular starting lineup and rotation. Roles will be more defined

DevinHarriswillstart · 11-12-2019, 01:33 PM

Most of the B squad aren't very good. That's the real problem. I've been as critical of Rick as any around here the last few years, but he can't magically make Seth Curry good.

It's all a direct result from a poor offseason in which they had ample options to bring in a third scorer/piece to take the load off of KP/Luka.

I hope someone can step up, but so far it doesn't look promising.

And none of this is for a lack of trying. I love the effort on both ends for the most part, but if guys are having to try SO hard to produce, then that's likely a result of just not being very good. They need to figure out how to make the game easier on themselves, and I think my solution of Luka force feeding them more is a good first step. I noticed that was happening a bit before the end of the first half against Boston.

EricaLubarsky · 11-12-2019, 01:37 PM

Isn't experimentation what coaches are judged on?

It's a bad coach who throws five guys out there and then sits back.

Jack.Kerr · 11-12-2019, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Isn't experimentation what coaches are judged on?

It's a bad coach who throws five guys out there and then sits back.

Fizdale: I'm the worst coach in the NBA!

Nellie: Here, hold my beer.

Carlisle: Here, hold my championship ring.

saclare · 11-12-2019, 04:30 PM

I've been able to catch a few of the games so far. The biggest miss so far is not having Wright start. I absolutely love his game next to Luka's. He should be starting and playing as many minutes as he can.

DevinHarriswillstart · 11-12-2019, 05:42 PM

Luka and the Heartbreakers.

https://twitter.com/NBA_Math/status/...393344/photo/1

Dallas41 · 11-12-2019, 08:27 PM

Best lineup imo is to surround luka and kp with defenders and guys who make hustle plays on both ends of the floor.

I think the idea that this team can only win with shooters is overrated

I think a big lineup with balanced offense and defense should be the way to go

Luka
Wright
DFS
Porzingus
Boban

Instead of looking for lineups that jack up 40 three's a night and only connect on 10 of them maybe we should rely more on points in the paint with that lineup

Boban has actually looked pretty damn good on the floor with Porzingus and I believe Wright and luka would make for really tough backcourt to keep out the paint.

Obviously boban would have to be limited to around 16mpg but I think in that lineup he could really work well and it would be tough to score on the mavs

SMC0007 · 11-12-2019, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dallas41

Best lineup imo is to surround luka and kp with defenders and guys who make hustle plays on both ends of the floor.

I think the idea that this team can only win with shooters is overrated

I think a big lineup with balanced offense and defense should be the way to go

Luka
Wright
DFS
Porzingus
Boban

Instead of looking for lineups that jack up 40 three's a night and only connect on 10 of them maybe we should rely more on points in the paint with that lineup

Boban has actually looked pretty damn good on the floor with Porzingus and I believe Wright and luka would make for really tough backcourt to keep out the paint.

Obviously boban would have to be limited to around 16mpg but I think in that lineup he could really work well and it would be tough to score on the mavs

Cosign.

blessednegr0 · 11-13-2019, 12:11 AM

There is absolutely zero reason for Delon Wright to not be starting. This has frustrated me more than anything with our recent lineups. He has clearly been the 3rd best player on our team. At this point I would like to see something like this:

Delon/Seth/Luka/KP/Maxi

And honestly THJ has got to go.... He has so many opportunities to score buckets and help the team and he is constantly blowing it. I really thought this would be a good fit for him but our biggest hole is a strong big man down low. This team needs more grit.

ozmavs123 · 11-13-2019, 04:26 AM

More Delon, Jackson and Boban

Less THJ, DFS and Seth

I actually think Powell has been pretty good. He seems to have good chemistry with Luka (lots of alley-oops), so his minutes should coincide with Luka where possible. Let KP spearhead the non-Luka minutes, along with Brunson and maybe THJ for offensive firepower.

I would be interested to see a starting unit of Delon, Luka, KP, Powell along with any of THJ, DFS or Jackson. Kleiber first sub for Powell

hayth.james.g · 11-13-2019, 09:35 AM

Carlisle commented on the ongoing starting lineup changes on the Lowe Post Podcast. Short version: probably won’t change... lol.

DevinHarriswillstart · 11-13-2019, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hayth.james.g

Carlisle commented on the ongoing starting lineup changes on the Lowe Post Podcast. Short version: probably won’t change... lol.

Which I'm fine with as long as other guys get their shots who deserve it.

EricaLubarsky · 11-13-2019, 11:08 AM

First half of the season is about getting every guy to be interchangeable and ready to contribute next to any other four guys.

When Pops does it, he's a legend. When Rick does it, we need threads devoted to criticizing him for messing with chemistry

SMC0007 · 11-13-2019, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

First half of the season is about getting every guy to be interchangeable and ready to contribute next to any other four guys.

When Pops does it, he's a legend. When Rick does it, we need threads devoted to criticizing him for messing with chemistry

It's more about minutes and consistent opportunity than starting. The most common feeling we have around here is that he isn't playing certain guys (Jax, Wright, Boban) enough minutes. Everyone knew Courtney Lee was never going to last in the SLU or get much playing time. I'm sure Rick knew it too. If he is getting guys ready to contribute next to any other four guys, fine, but it never made sense to start Lee and isn't making sense managing Boban the way he has so far. More DNPCD than games played and one of those games he played under 2 mins. I respect Rick as a top 5 coach, but he can be better.

NewMexiMav · 11-13-2019, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

First half of the season is about getting every guy to be interchangeable and ready to contribute next to any other four guys.

When Pops does it, he's a legend. When Rick does it, we need threads devoted to criticizing him for messing with chemistry

Well, as the thread starter, let me just say that the intent of the thread was not to criticize Rick so much as try to understand the process of his rotation experiments and how long we can expect it to continue.

Like everyone, I have my preferences as to who I would like to see more of, but I continue to be patient.

mac222b · 11-13-2019, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

First half of the season is about getting every guy to be interchangeable and ready to contribute next to any other four guys.

When Pops does it, he's a legend. When Rick does it, we need threads devoted to criticizing him for messing with chemistry

I get your point, but Pop has used the exact same starting lineup in every game this year but one, when Murray sat out the second of a back to back.

I think RC is a great tactical coach who sometimes falls in love with his own "mad genius" persona. I totally trust him to dial up the right gameplan in a playoff series, or to draw up a great play to get us a good look in endgame situations.

I don't entirely trust him not to yank guys around for no discernible reason. I too think Wright especially should have a more clearly defined role and some stability. Also wonder why not more Boban or Jackson and less THJ and NEVER any C. Lee.

Strange match-ups. The commonly used example is Wes at center guarding Demarcus Cousins down the stretch of a tight game a few years ago. Thats just the coaching equivalent of trolling. I've seen him this season stay too long with an inexplicable bad matchup (THJ being abused by Lebron? And then Marcus Morris a couple games later) too many times that its gotta be chalked up to a sort of stubbornness. All in all he's a great coach that sometimes makes baffling decisions (why was Seth shadowing Danny Green on the 3 point make, why was Luka guarding Dame?) but generally speaking is a top 5 coach in the league, easy, and I wouldn't trade him for anyone, really.

turin · 11-14-2019, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Which I'm fine with as long as other guys get their shots who deserve it.

Agree, RC has another 10 to no more than 20 games, hopefully, to get dialed in, and with as poor as Seth has been, I wouldn't mind him trying Broekhoff in there instead. Hell, he justified starting Lee a couple of games, I see no reason not to give Broekhoff a shot considering the lack of shooters on this team.

turin · 11-14-2019, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

It's more about minutes and consistent opportunity than starting. The most common feeling we have around here is that he isn't playing certain guys (Jax, Wright, Boban) enough minutes. Everyone knew Courtney Lee was never going to last in the SLU or get much playing time. I'm sure Rick knew it too. If he is getting guys ready to contribute next to any other four guys, fine, but it never made sense to start Lee and isn't making sense managing Boban the way he has so far. More DNPCD than games played and one of those games he played under 2 mins. I respect Rick as a top 5 coach, but he can be better.

Agree.

Dallas41 · 11-14-2019, 08:27 PM

Never compare Rick Carlisle to Popovich

That is a bad example

twistaeffect2004 · 11-14-2019, 10:53 PM

Can anyone explain to me how Luka torches the world to end the third quarter, and somehow he sits for the first 7 minutes of the 4th quarter again an awful Knicks team? Taking the foot off of their throats by sitting our best players for so long was about as stubborn a move I can remember. Wow.

sefant77 · 11-14-2019, 10:56 PM

Because last season Luka often played with less rest and was absolutly gassed in crunchtime and made bad plays.

SMC0007 · 11-15-2019, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twistaeffect2004

Can anyone explain to me how Luka torches the world to end the third quarter, and somehow he sits for the first 7 minutes of the 4th quarter again an awful Knicks team? Taking the foot off of their throats by sitting our best players for so long was about as stubborn a move I can remember. Wow.

This isnt nba2k. They get tired and ricks rotations are somewhat set minute wise to get us through the long season. Luka could have stayed in to start the 4th but then he would have had nothing in the last 5.mins

Underdog · 11-15-2019, 12:31 AM

"Long game"

Simon2 · 11-15-2019, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac222b

I get your point, but Pop has used the exact same starting lineup in every game this year but one, when Murray sat out the second of a back to back.

I think RC is a great tactical coach who sometimes falls in love with his own "mad genius" persona. I totally trust him to dial up the right gameplan in a playoff series, or to draw up a great play to get us a good look in endgame situations.

I don't entirely trust him not to yank guys around for no discernible reason. I too think Wright especially should have a more clearly defined role and some stability. Also wonder why not more Boban or Jackson and less THJ and NEVER any C. Lee.

Strange match-ups. The commonly used example is Wes at center guarding Demarcus Cousins down the stretch of a tight game a few years ago. Thats just the coaching equivalent of trolling. I've seen him this season stay too long with an inexplicable bad matchup (THJ being abused by Lebron? And then Marcus Morris a couple games later) too many times that its gotta be chalked up to a sort of stubbornness. All in all he's a great coach that sometimes makes baffling decisions (why was Seth shadowing Danny Green on the 3 point make, why was Luka guarding Dame?) but generally speaking is a top 5 coach in the league, easy, and I wouldn't trade him for anyone, really.

Completely agree. Stuborness and not being flexible is what prevents Rick from being great. Maybe he’s just tired of it. He doesn’t look like he has passion out there. His strange lineups are not genius but just stupidity.

ncapz2790 · 11-16-2019, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dallas41

Best lineup imo is to surround luka and kp with defenders and guys who make hustle plays on both ends of the floor.

I think the idea that this team can only win with shooters is overrated

I think a big lineup with balanced offense and defense should be the way to go

Luka
Wright
DFS
Porzingis
Boban

Instead of looking for lineups that jack up 40 three's a night and only connect on 10 of them maybe we should rely more on points in the paint with that lineup

Boban has actually looked pretty damn good on the floor with Porzingus and I believe Wright and luka would make for really tough backcourt to keep out the paint.

Obviously boban would have to be limited to around 16mpg but I think in that lineup he could really work well and it would be tough to score on the mavs

No way that lineup would work in my opinion. Defenses would pack the paint hard against it, and our pick and roll defense would be atrocious. If Doncic and Porzingis aren't hitting their threes then that lineup will have extreme difficulty scoring the ball. Given how inconsistent Porzingis has been so far, if hes having an off night, you're pretty much looking at your offense being doncic driving the lane with the whole team waiting for him.

This team just isn't built well from a roster standpoint. They need a four who is athletic and a solid defender/rebounder, someone around 6'9ish with some strength, quick feet and preferably good touch. You start porzingis at center if you have that. Then they also need two guards who can knock down 3's consistently and play defense. Preferably one who can also slash and finish at the rim well. Right now in my opinion they just dont have the tools to put out the lineup this team needs to actually be super successful. Re-upping powell was a mistake in my opinion, hes just not good enough to be what they need. Finney doesnt really have a place on this team. The only players i see potentially working in the future with this team are delon wright, kleber and potentially brunson. Even if curry is hitting his 3's hes tough to keep on the floor in lineups because of his size and defensive ability, his 3 point shooting even if hes hitting doesnt offset it. Hardway Jr just has to go period. Justin Jackson seems like a decent player, but again hes tough to keep on the floor, unless doncic is resting, so his impact will always be limited.

They just need roster improvement, no amount of coaching will turn this team into a contender, they could potentially make the playoffs. But their ceiling unfournately in my opinion is a second round exit at best.

In terms of the lineup, i think Carlisle is doing what you can do with this roster. Mixing and matching depending upon who you're playing. The roster just doesn't have players with the skill sets needed for defined roles.

turin · 11-16-2019, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ncapz2790

In terms of the lineup, i think Carlisle is doing what you can do with this roster. Mixing and matching depending upon who you're playing. The roster just doesn't have players with the skill sets needed for defined roles.

This is almost ridiculous. THJ is chucking for way too many minutes, and two of the best 3-pt shootiers on the team - Jackson and Broekhoff can't get any burn at all against the friggin Knicks! And don't give me the lack of defensive liability garbage by Broekhoff. Anybody who has seen the Mavs play knows the defense can't really get too much worse. I don't buy the "Rick is doing all he can with this group." garbage one bit.

jay3189 · 11-16-2019, 10:22 PM

I will be fine with a starting 5 of
PG- Jalen Brunson
SG- Delon Wright
SF- Luka Doncic
PF- Maxi Kleber
C- KP

Or

PG- Delon Wright
SG- Luka Doncic
SF- Dorian Finney Smith
PF- Maxi Kleber
C- KP

Dallas is a average defensive team. They are not consistently good. Their 1st quarter defense have been trash so far this season. They have to play better. I believe a bigger better defensive lineup will help the Mavericks win more games. If the Mavs can make a trade for a wing defender, that will be great. I really do see the potential for KP and Maxi to be a good shot blocking duo. Mavs just need more help protecting the perimeter so they don't have to put all the pressure on the big men having to save a defensive breakdown.

sefant77 · 11-16-2019, 11:09 PM

I really hope this was the welcome back game for Seth. A guy in the S5 who knocks down 40%+ from downtown is really what this team needs.

Looks like that Kleber finally pushed Powell down in the FC rotation. He is outplaying Powell in every aspect. So thats four starters.

I get the point with DFS (defense, crashing boards, defending the elite wing) and i think this wont change because Wright cant be the guy defending big wings...

rimrocker · 11-17-2019, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

I really hope this was the welcome back game for Seth. A guy in the S5 who knocks down 40%+ from downtown is really what this team needs.

Looks like that Kleber finally pushed Powell down in the FC rotation. He is outplaying Powell in every aspect. So thats four starters.

I get the point with DFS (defense, crashing boards, defending the elite wing) and i think this wont change because Wright cant be the guy defending big wings...

I think you are dead on with this.

Seth, Maxi and DFS with KP and Luka is probably our most balanced team in terms of offense and defense. I think Rick needs to stay with this lineup to start building chemistry between Seth and Luka. DFS and Maxi complement the others because they do a lot of the dirty work.

rimrocker · 11-17-2019, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turin

This is almost ridiculous. THJ is chucking for way too many minutes, and two of the best 3-pt shootiers on the team - Jackson and Broekhoff can't get any burn at all against the friggin Knicks! And don't give me the lack of defensive liability garbage by Broekhoff. Anybody who has seen the Mavs play knows the defense can't really get too much worse. I don't buy the "Rick is doing all he can with this group." garbage one bit.

Honestly I think THJ is as good as gone and the Mavs will do whatever it takes within reason to get rid of him. Question is what assets will we have to give up to ship him out or what garbage contracts will be coming back.

Lets hope he accidently gets hot at the right time and impresses an opponent enough to trade for him.

ncapz2790 · 11-18-2019, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turin

This is almost ridiculous. THJ is chucking for way too many minutes, and two of the best 3-pt shootiers on the team - Jackson and Broekhoff can't get any burn at all against the friggin Knicks! And don't give me the lack of defensive liability garbage by Broekhoff. Anybody who has seen the Mavs play knows the defense can't really get too much worse. I don't buy the "Rick is doing all he can with this group." garbage one bit.

I agree 100 percent about THJ, i even stated he needs to just go.

I was referring to the unsteady rotations Carlisle is using, not saying i agree overall with everything he is doing. My point was given the lack of suitable pieces of this team, you dont really have a choice but to mix and match player depending on the matchups of the game.

thewizard · 11-21-2019, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blessednegr0

There is absolutely zero reason for Delon Wright to not be starting. This has frustrated me more than anything with our recent lineups. He has clearly been the 3rd best player on our team.

Actually there is definitely a reason he doesn't start, and I think it's because Delon just plays better off the bench. All his best games this year have been off the bench. He plays best with the ball in his hands and with Luka out there he doesn't really get a chance to run the offense. But he really shines when he gets to run the second unit. I'm perfectly fine with Wright coming off the bench for the remainder of the season.

EricaLubarsky · 11-21-2019, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thewizard

Actually there is definitely a reason he doesn't start, and I think it's because Delon just plays better off the bench. All his best games this year have been off the bench. He plays best with the ball in his hands and with Luka out there he doesn't really get a chance to run the offense. But he really shines when he gets to run the second unit. I'm perfectly fine with Wright coming off the bench for the remainder of the season.

This.

There is plenty of reason not to start Delon.

I like Delon. I think he could be our third-best player. No worse than 4th/5th. He should play big minutes.

I just think there are plenty of reasons he shouldn't start.

We need a steady hand and some maturity with our second unit including a ball-handler. he's been solid already and he will only get better as the season goes on and he learns how to be successful with us.

DevinHarriswillstart · 11-21-2019, 07:42 PM

I do think it's directly related to keeping Luka's minutes as low as possible too. Pretty amazing that he is only at 34 mpg. Lebron was at a staggering 42 mpg his sophomore year.

BigDog63 · 11-21-2019, 11:21 PM

Everyone should know the answer to this by now, particularly with a new lineup (when have we not had that?).
About 20 games to see what the issues are.
About another 20 games to try to sort them out
So, about half the season. Changes will still occur after that, but Rick has talked about these 1/4 of the season review periods before. Nothing new here.

Plus...it will take a while for KP to get back in groove...which then has an impact on everyone else.

rimrocker · 11-22-2019, 05:51 AM

The one that bothers me the most is why isn't Maxi starting over Powell?
Maxi/KP/DFS/Seth/Luka is probably our most balanced lineup in terms of defense/offense.

Wright coming off the bench makes a lot of sense because he is most effective with the ball in his hand. He basically made that same comment and said he likes that type of role. Him and Brunson seem to have good chemistry too.