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Old 11-19-2019, 07:29 PM   #1
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Default Why no Luka-KP pick and roll?

I figure this deserves its own thread because it gets brought up at least once every GDT (usually by me.)

This really confuses the hell out of me. I don't understand why RC insists on using Powell and Maxi as the "roll" man but almost never KP. The Mavs themselves made the Stockton-Malone comparison when they traded for KP. And we've heard over and over again how RC is trying to KP more involved in the offense early on. Why is our entire offense not built around a Luka-KP pick and roll? They should be running it on just about every possession, and yet I can't remember seeing it once. It just seems like a no brainer to me.
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Old 11-20-2019, 05:10 AM   #2
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Yeah, KP is not utilised properly on offense.
He is trying to create to much by himself and shooting to much turn around jumpers.
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Old 11-20-2019, 06:26 AM   #3
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I'm not as worried about KP and his role yet. It's really really early. He basically was off for 2 years. It's going to take time. He has stretches where he looks comfortable and others where he doesn't. When he's with Powell he's bogged down some because Powell isn't a threat from 3. When he's with Kleber he can operate inside more. He's not efficient at all yet. He's at like 50% TS right now which is worse than everyone on the roster other than THJ and Courtney Lee.

It's gonna take time to see where he should be with what personnel and what works in what situations. he clearly looks timid at times which is understandable. But he's had moments where he lets it loose and goes hard. I like that this last game they had off ball screens for him to get easy looks. I'll just say give it to the ASB to see improvements with how he's being used. Because part of it imo is we are just kinda easing him into things and trying to see what works best for now and makes him most comfortable until he's less timid. Some screens he's setting are very Powell like... in that he's not screening at all he's just flaring out or slipping and rolling with no contact.

The Mavs want to make the playoffs so there is prolly a mix of lets do this to get him more comfortable with it and a mix of, ok we need to score and this doesn't work with where he is right now so let's do that instead.
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Old 11-20-2019, 07:45 AM   #4
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totally agree with OP.
The KP/Luka pick-and-roll would be lethal and very hard to stop.
I have no idea why we have not seen it in a game yet.
Especially so with both of their shooting skills and height.
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Old 11-20-2019, 09:20 AM   #5
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I'm not as worried about KP and his role yet. It's really really early. He basically was off for 2 years. It's going to take time. He has stretches where he looks comfortable and others where he doesn't. When he's with Powell he's bogged down some because Powell isn't a threat from 3. When he's with Kleber he can operate inside more. He's not efficient at all yet. He's at like 50% TS right now which is worse than everyone on the roster other than THJ and Courtney Lee.

It's gonna take time to see where he should be with what personnel and what works in what situations. he clearly looks timid at times which is understandable. But he's had moments where he lets it loose and goes hard. I like that this last game they had off ball screens for him to get easy looks. I'll just say give it to the ASB to see improvements with how he's being used. Because part of it imo is we are just kinda easing him into things and trying to see what works best for now and makes him most comfortable until he's less timid. Some screens he's setting are very Powell like... in that he's not screening at all he's just flaring out or slipping and rolling with no contact.

The Mavs want to make the playoffs so there is prolly a mix of lets do this to get him more comfortable with it and a mix of, ok we need to score and this doesn't work with where he is right now so let's do that instead.
Agree. With the Mavs need for 3-pt shooting at a higher percentage, I'm perfectly fine with him working off ball screens for an open 3. I do remember one particular play that was basically a 2-man game with Seth beyond the arc. Seth went to the corner, KP popped out above the arc and was open, received the pass and canned the 3. Simple plays like this that get him open looks that he makes will definitely help with his confidence, and I think that feeds his aggressiveness. He's not nearly as tentative making decisions after he has hit a couple of shots.

Luka and Delon are a threat to drive at any particular time when they are on the floor, so it's not like the Mavs don't have other threats out there for the opponent's interior D to worry about. I'm perfectly fine with KP working his way into some level of comfort on the PnR over time.

While KP appears to have completely recovered, UD made a good point in another thread about his psychological state and contact that is worth considering. He's probably still tentative when it comes his body and contact, so he needs more time imo.

I think you hit the nail on the head though. When he lets loose (doesn't worry about contact) he's a beast and much, much more effective and efficient. He just needs more time, and I'm happy to give it to him. He's going to be a lot of fun to watch and root for. I enjoy it now, especially when he gives us a glimpse of what he can do on a regular basis. It'll be a bit like Luka and Dirk in that we will be spoiled by what he can do that for him is "routine."

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Old 11-20-2019, 01:00 PM   #6
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I've harped on this topic often as well.

Simple answer is KP doesn't want to or isn't comfortable yet setting good screens/picks. There may have been a few times where he actually made contact with someone but vast majority of times he slips or just kinds gets in the way. I understand trying to utilize Powells strength by having him do it but he could do that off the bench with Wright or Jalen. Move Maxi back in SLU and maybe it helps solve some clutter and KP could run the pnr. I'm still not sure KP even recognizes this is missing from his game.
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Old 11-20-2019, 09:50 PM   #7
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Work in progress....you can see that Rick creates some new plays/looks for them

https://twitter.com/bobbykaralla/sta...42755762167808
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Old 11-20-2019, 10:37 PM   #8
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Work in progress....you can see that Rick creates some new plays/looks for them

https://twitter.com/bobbykaralla/sta...42755762167808
Nice find. Love it.
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Old 11-21-2019, 07:10 AM   #9
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Work in progress....you can see that Rick creates some new plays/looks for them

https://twitter.com/bobbykaralla/sta...42755762167808
Seinfeld reference...
"It moved..."
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Old 11-21-2019, 10:30 AM   #10
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Work in progress....you can see that Rick creates some new plays/looks for them

https://twitter.com/bobbykaralla/sta...42755762167808
It's a good curl screen and I like it.

I just think the Pick'n'roll and Pick'n'pop could be deadly and we havent seen much of either.

KP is a ferocious dunker with good length and his jumpshots are very efficient. Because he can do either, he would be a great partner for the pick'n'____. defenses would have to scramble to prepare for him to roll to the rim or pop out for an open jumper.
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Old 11-21-2019, 10:41 AM   #11
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Work in progress....you can see that Rick creates some new plays/looks for them

https://twitter.com/bobbykaralla/sta...42755762167808

That's fine and all but I disagree that they could run that play and have the same result 5-8 times like he suggested. It being the Warriors b team maybe it would work that often. It's not like Rick was in the basement drawing that up for months, it's a common off ball screen. The 2man PnR is a fundamental staple in every offense and it makes sense to use it with your best 2 players as effectively as possible...and it's not there yet. This play was a great result and Luka/KP is definitely a WIP, I'm just hoping for the basics that will work in a grind where Luka doesn't have to go 1v1 or 2 to get us a bucket even though he is doing that really well.
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Old 11-21-2019, 05:43 PM   #12
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I think part of it is KP sets pretty awful screens. He slips damn near one I've seen him attempt. I'd like to see him man up a bit and set some hard picks from time to time. Even Dirk didn't really lay people out with his screens, but he was effective enough to make PnR and PnP plays work.
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Old 11-21-2019, 10:59 PM   #13
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It's simple...it wouldn't be fair, and Rick is all about fairness.

Seriously, though...I'm with ya. I thought the pick and roll would be a given, and I was hoping KP's game would blossom out from there.

Simple question...what does Dwight Powell have that KP doesn't, that enables pick and roll to work? ???

I wonder if injury concern has something to do with it? Does that play have more knee injuries??

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Old 11-22-2019, 10:32 AM   #14
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It's simple...it wouldn't be fair, and Rick is all about fairness.

Seriously, though...I'm with ya. I thought the pick and roll would be a given, and I was hoping KP's game would blossom out from there.

Simple question...what does Dwight Powell have that KP doesn't, that enables pick and roll to work? ???

I wonder if injury concern has something to do with it? Does that play have more knee injuries??

DP pick/screens with intention to roll hard and fast after contact and if he doesn't make contact he cuts even faster. KP chooses to float to perimeter, granted his perimeter shot is light years better. DP is quicker but what separates them is more about their intentions than quickness.

I doubt KP is concerned about re-injury from PnR, he has never really been above average at that aspect. People have been trying to get KP more involved in an offense since he came into the league.
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Old 11-24-2019, 06:07 PM   #15
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This is one thing they need to figure out. It's clear that even in a good shooting night like tonight v. Houston, KP still seems a bit ... isolated. And if there is one thing Luka can improve on at times, is to not over-dribble the ball too much. Good teams will isolate you and lock you down during the playoffs.
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Old 11-24-2019, 06:26 PM   #16
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This is one thing they need to figure out. It's clear that even in a good shooting night like tonight v. Houston, KP still seems a bit ... isolated. And if there is one thing Luka can improve on at times, is to not over-dribble the ball too much. Good teams will isolate you and lock you down during the playoffs.


Neh. Luka can not be locked down consistently. As long as everyone else fills their role, he will be effective. He's too big and intelligent. The best teams can do is hope to contain him here and there.
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Old 11-24-2019, 06:55 PM   #17
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Well here and there is all that you need when differences are minimal. I don't want to see the Mavs become a Rockets copycat where the entire team stands around as Harden dribbles for 20 seconds.
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Old 11-25-2019, 12:56 PM   #18
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Well here and there is all that you need when differences are minimal. I don't want to see the Mavs become a Rockets copycat where the entire team stands around as Harden dribbles for 20 seconds.
I don't either. I think Rick would be able to scheme our way out of that kind of stagnation, even if for some reason (that I can't imagine) Luka couldn't. On paper we have flexibility to insert other guys in the lineup around Luka to help initiate the offense. I'd need to see proof in the playoffs that teams can shut him down before I get concerned.
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Old 11-25-2019, 01:03 PM   #19
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Every now and then, somebody other than Luka will bring the ball up the court. THJ did it several times last night. This helps break things up and give Luka a little break.

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Old 11-30-2019, 02:08 AM   #20
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Ok, I realize it's still early, but I'm starting to worry about KP a little. Or rather, I'm starting to worry that Carlisle just doesn't know how to use him. Did we really trade away a trove of assets and then sign KP to a max contract just to use him as a spot up shooter? I'm starting to get a Kevin Love in Minnesota vs. Kevin Love in Cleveland vibe. Even though they went to four finals and won a title, it seemed like Love was never as good in Cleveland, and I always thought it was because all they used him for was corner threes.

KP should be one of the most lethal pick-and-pop scorers in the league. In the games where he has been good, it's usually because he's been cutting to the basket, catching lob passes and/or getting offensive rebounds and putbacks. I mean really, how hard is it to get him involved in the offense? It's not rocket science.
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Old 11-30-2019, 02:41 PM   #21
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Ok, I realize it's still early, but I'm starting to worry about KP a little. Or rather, I'm starting to worry that Carlisle just doesn't know how to use him. Did we really trade away a trove of assets and then sign KP to a max contract just to use him as a spot up shooter? I'm starting to get a Kevin Love in Minnesota vs. Kevin Love in Cleveland vibe. Even though they went to four finals and won a title, it seemed like Love was never as good in Cleveland, and I always thought it was because all they used him for was corner threes.

KP should be one of the most lethal pick-and-pop scorers in the league. In the games where he has been good, it's usually because he's been cutting to the basket, catching lob passes and/or getting offensive rebounds and putbacks. I mean really, how hard is it to get him involved in the offense? It's not rocket science.

1. KP still doesn't know how to set a proper pick
2. They seem to be doing some reserve roll where it's Luka that goes to the basket while KP actually rolls out to the 3 pt line. Thing is that Luka almost always goes for the higher percentage runner/layup versus passing to the guy who is 0-8.
3. Your last point makes me think it's KP more than anything. He needs to choose to get more involved on offense.
4. No amount of scheming is an excuse for not making a single shot. This is a make it or miss it league.
5. It happily doesn't matter right now with how good his rebounding and defense have been.
6. Not sure he has that "it" factor on offense to be a superstar, but I hope I'm wrong.
7. I think it's easy to fall prey to Luka's shadow since Luka can do just about everything on offense.
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Old 11-30-2019, 05:59 PM   #22
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3. Your last point makes me think it's KP more than anything. He needs to choose to get more involved on offense.
4. No amount of scheming is an excuse for not making a single shot. This is a make it or miss it league.
I dunno, I hear you, but at the same time when a only takes 8 shots in a game and 6 of them are 3's, that's I feel like that's scheming more than anything. And if I'm wrong and it is KP more than Carlisle, well that's even more worrying. I'm hoping it's still just him getting reacclimated to the game after being injured for so long and adjusting to a new system where he's not the focus of the offense. But what I've seen so far is concerning.

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5. It happily doesn't matter right now with how good his rebounding and defense have been.
His defense and his rebounding have been solid. That is the one thing that's encouraging.

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6. Not sure he has that "it" factor on offense to be a superstar, but I hope I'm wrong.
Maybe not, but superstar is one thing. So far we haven't seen a consistent ability to be a reliable second option. Again, I go back to the Kevin Love comparison. The Cavs never needed Love to be a superstar. They needed him to be a consistent 3rd option. He kinda was, but he also kinda wasn't. He was very inconsistent and always felt like the third wheel on that team. It always felt like there was something missing there. Whether it was Love not being able to adjust or coaches not knowing how to use him or both- it was probably a bit of both- they never quite got it right. I'm really hoping that's not what will happen here, but again what I'm seeing right now doesn't make me optimistic.

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7. I think it's easy to fall prey to Luka's shadow since Luka can do just about everything on offense.
I'm hoping he's just adjusting to not being the top guy anymore. On nights where Luka is completely beasting it for 40 points and a triple double, I guess it doesn't matter much. But as the Clippers game showed, Luka can't do that every night, and when the opposing defense is giving Luka trouble, someone else has to carry the offensive load. Theoretically, a guy you traded the bulk of your tradeable assets for and then signed to a 5 year max contract should be that guy.
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Old 12-02-2019, 05:35 AM   #23
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I think this year is going to bring a lot of ups and downs for KP. It's just normal after such a lengthy layoff. Next year he should be more acclimated with the game. There are many moments when he looks tentative, in a way that he did not in NY. He's just not sure of his body, and that is normal.

Beyond that, KP needs to work on a lot of technical skills. Setting a pick, holding his own on the post, memorizing his moves. It's all the little things that Dirk worked over and over during the years, which made him seemingly automatic during his prime. Right now KP plays purely out of instincts, and he really needs to hone his skills. But again, that is expected.

To me, it really comes down to how much he can readjust his game after the injury and find a balance with himself. I hope he can because he seems to have all the skills needed again.
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Old 12-02-2019, 11:13 AM   #24
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I think this year is going to bring a lot of ups and downs for KP. It's just normal after such a lengthy layoff. Next year he should be more acclimated with the game. There are many moments when he looks tentative, in a way that he did not in NY. He's just not sure of his body, and that is normal.

Beyond that, KP needs to work on a lot of technical skills. Setting a pick, holding his own on the post, memorizing his moves. It's all the little things that Dirk worked over and over during the years, which made him seemingly automatic during his prime. Right now KP plays purely out of instincts, and he really needs to hone his skills. But again, that is expected.

To me, it really comes down to how much he can readjust his game after the injury and find a balance with himself. I hope he can because he seems to have all the skills needed again.
Right, barring injury I don't see why he couldn't have a Dirk-like career with the body and ability he has been gifted with. IF he works like Dirk did.
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Old 12-02-2019, 11:22 AM   #25
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KP should be one of the most lethal pick-and-pop scorers in the league. In the games where he has been good, it's usually because he's been cutting to the basket, catching lob passes and/or getting offensive rebounds and putbacks. I mean really, how hard is it to get him involved in the offense? It's not rocket science.
I agree with this, and I'm 99% sure the team does, too. I believe Luka and KP are having trouble mastering the two-man-game, because when they've tried it in games it has looked awkward. Luka/Kleber have been better at it, actually. I think they've shelved it in an effort to win games now, but I sincerely hope they're still working on it, because you're right - that's a looooot of money to pay a spacer.

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Old 12-02-2019, 11:23 AM   #26
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Hmm...does altering the text break the quote box here, or did I do something crazy?
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Old 12-02-2019, 12:08 PM   #27
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You're missing a closing bracket after the Thespiralgoeson;1466078.
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Old 12-02-2019, 12:10 PM   #28
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You're missing a closing bracket after the Thespiralgoeson;1466078.
This
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Old 12-03-2019, 10:07 AM   #29
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Right, barring injury I don't see why he couldn't have a Dirk-like career with the body and ability he has been gifted with. IF he works like Dirk did.
Dirk is really a very high ceiling. I think people seriously underrate the amount of physical talent he had. His body coordination is levels and levels beyond even some of the most elite big man in this league. That allowed him to take, and make consistently, shots that no one would dare.

But let's say I'd be very happy if KP approaches something close to peak Pau Gasol. With the way Luka is developing, that's more than enough to win a title.
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