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Old 08-07-2018, 08:11 AM   #321
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Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart View Post
The implosion in Mavs land if Doncic averages 9/3/3 his rookie year.
Depends on minutes, health. I am hoping for 15p, 5reb, 4ast,
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Old 08-07-2018, 09:25 AM   #322
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The defense was never close to touching the ball while he was dribbling . One of the things I like most about his handles is that he really doesn't carry while he's making his moves. I saw it a few times here and there, but it's nowhere near Harden or any other top guys with handles, where their dribble moves and penetration seem to be predicated on carrying or palming the ball. I hope they start cracking down on this rule more often.
So what you're saying is that he has great room for improvement...
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Old 08-07-2018, 11:29 AM   #323
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So what you're saying is that he has great room for improvement...
Yexactly!
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Old 08-08-2018, 08:08 PM   #324
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The implosion in Mavs land if Doncic averages 9/3/3 his rookie year.
Not. Gonna. Happen.

He won't be playing on a stacked contending team like the Warriors. He will easily average 11/5/4 or more on the Mavs.

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Old 08-09-2018, 03:08 PM   #325
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The implosion in Mavs land if Doncic averages 9/3/3 his rookie year.
Dennis was pretty terrible last season, and we all still have high hopes for him. As long as Doncic pulls off a few highlights from game to game, people will forgive his shortcomings.
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Old 08-09-2018, 04:31 PM   #326
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Dennis was pretty terrible last season, and we all still have high hopes for him. As long as Doncic pulls off a few highlights from game to game, people will forgive his shortcomings.
Dennis wasn't efficient shooting the ball and needs to work on his defense, but I wouldn't go anywhere near saying he was terrible.
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Old 08-09-2018, 05:29 PM   #327
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Yeah, I'm not sure where 'terrible' is coming from. His percentages could and will more than likely improve as well as his tov. Other than that, I would say that's pretty dang awesome for a 9th pick in his rookie year.

15.2 ppg, 3.8 reb, 5.2 ast, 2.8 tov, 1.0 stl, 39.5% FG% and 69.4% FT%
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Old 08-09-2018, 06:20 PM   #328
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DSJ was #5 in RoY voting, made NBA All-Rookie Second Team... That's hardly "terrible."

This is why I dislike the expectations being foisted upon Doncic -- anything less than RoY is going to be considered "terrible."
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Old 08-09-2018, 06:48 PM   #329
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DSJ was #5 in RoY voting, made NBA All-Rookie Second Team... That's hardly "terrible."

This is why I dislike the expectations being foisted upon Doncic -- anything less than RoY is going to be considered "terrible."
My 9/3/3 comment was reflecting exactly this...
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Old 08-10-2018, 12:20 AM   #330
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The more I watch him move, the more he reminds me of the way Jason Kidd moved. Kidd wasn't "athletic" either but he managed to play some awesome defense by being smart.
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:55 PM   #331
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Yeah, I'm not sure where 'terrible' is coming from. His percentages could and will more than likely improve as well as his tov. Other than that, I would say that's pretty dang awesome for a 9th pick in his rookie year.

15.2 ppg, 3.8 reb, 5.2 ast, 2.8 tov, 1.0 stl, 39.5% FG% and 69.4% FT%
Could improve? It’s must if the goal is to win basketball games. His offense rating was 93 and def rating was 110. If Wes was the tank commander, DSJ was the general. Rick was using him to purposely lose basketball games. When I said “terrible” I just meant as an NBA player, not in comparison to other rookies. Doncic will likely struggle just the same, and I will not be disappointed. I wasn’t disappointed in Dennis either. He still looks like a steal at 9, and a possible future all star.

I know his stat line looks pretty similar to Westbrook’s rookie season, but Westbrook’s free throw percentage was above 80%. This tells you that his poor shooting percentage came from just being a rookie. Dennis’s ft percentage tells you that he just couldn’t shoot. He’ll learn to shoot, hopefully.
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Old 08-10-2018, 08:13 PM   #332
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The more I watch him move, the more he reminds me of the way Jason Kidd moved. Kidd wasn't "athletic" either but he managed to play some awesome defense by being smart.
Yeah, I'm wondering why there weren't more comparisons to Kidd.
Seems to have similar skills and traits...court awareness, competitive spirit, good size, strong hands, leadership, BBIQ, BB savvy, average shooter, average athleticism, team oriented, makes players better, etc....

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Old 08-11-2018, 12:02 AM   #333
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When I said terrible I just meant as an NBA player, not in comparison to other rookies.
I still have to disagree. Nothing last season was "terrible" about DSJ. He was not KD or Lebron or a franchise player carrying us into the playoffs, but there is literally half the league that was worse than DSJ. So I would not use terrible in any stretch of the imagination.
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Old 08-11-2018, 09:48 AM   #334
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When I said “terrible” I just meant as an NBA player, not in comparison to other rookies.
What does that even mean? Of course a rookie is going to be worse than a developed/seasoned player. It basically means nothing to say that Smith as a rookie was worse than Durant in year 12. The only meaningful comparison you can make is between players in their rookie season.


Here's a few I assembled. Dirk and last year's allstars as rookies vs. Smith
better 3pt% and better eFG% than Dirk
better 3pt% and better eFG% than LeBron
better 3pt% and better eFG% than Westbrook
better 3pt% and tied on eFG% with Durant
better 3pt% than George
better 3pt% and better eFG% than Kemba
better 3pt% and better eFG% than Wall
better 3pt% than Derozan
better 3pt% and better eFG% than Butler
better eFG% than Lowry

guys with more efficient-scoring rookie seasons:
Harden
Klay
Curry
Lillard
bigs like Davis, Cousins

Smith had a more efficient rookie season than most of the allstars on both allstar teams this year. I'm not saying that he will be anywhere near as good-- it's all about that huge sophomore leap, but saying Smith is terrible compared to seasoned vets is just a silly statement and comparing him against incredible players in comparable seasons, Smith looks very promising.

18pts - 5reb - 6ast per 36 with efficiency numbers that compare well with most 2018 allstars.
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Old 08-11-2018, 01:13 PM   #335
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I'd love to see DSJ average more like 5fta per game than 2.8. For various reasons we all know he only had 2.8 a game last year. He also really needs to be around 75-80% next year as opposed to 69%. Those 2 things alone make him nearly a 20 point scorer and much more efficient from a TS% perspective. I love that he can create his own shot but for now I'd like him to take less of those dribble move step back 3's and trust making the right pass over isolation. Deep into the shot clock or closing quarters that's a different story obviously. I'm pretty confident that DAJ is going to be a huuuuuuge boost to DSJ's ability inside the paint to either get better looks himself or for DAJ or from a kick out with a collapsing defense.

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Also with Doncic I think he can focus more on attacking and scoring.

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Old 08-11-2018, 07:17 PM   #336
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@Mavs_FFL: Seems legit 😂 #MFFL

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Old 08-12-2018, 06:29 AM   #337
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“What does that even mean? Of course a rookie is going to be worse than a developed/seasoned player.”

I was responding to a comment about fans imploding over Doncic’s rookie stats. Not sure why you are ant fucking over efgs of past rookies. I literally said he is a possible future all star.
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Old 08-12-2018, 11:19 AM   #338
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Old 08-12-2018, 12:50 PM   #339
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@Mavs_FFL: Seems legit 😂 #MFFL

Haha amazing quote. I love this guy already.
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Old 08-12-2018, 05:34 PM   #340
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Haha amazing quote. I love this guy already.
LOL, it's a fake quote -- REAL.NBA.QUOTES is always making this stuff up... But I love the spirit of it!
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Old 08-12-2018, 06:16 PM   #341
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https://twitter.com/mike_schmitz/sta...581906947?s=21
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Almost every U16 prospect I've interviewed the last few days has named Luka Doncic as their favorite player to watch/study. A lot of new Mavericks fans in the Balkan region.
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Old 08-13-2018, 04:29 PM   #342
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Haha amazing quote. I love this guy already.
Luka would never say shit like that. Knew it's fake the moment I read it. Doncic is mature beyond his years, not only on the court but mentally too.

Regarding the athleticism, Luka will certainly get better. The athletic prime (both strength and explosiveness) starts at around 25 years old. Just look at the discus throwers (a sport that requires extreme strength, co-ordination and explosiveness)... None of the best ones are younger than 24-25.

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Old 08-13-2018, 08:29 PM   #343
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Luka could very well be the guy that revolutionizes European basketball. Even further than guys like Dirk, Hedu, and Peja did. Especially when you factor in the advancements in coaching, nutrition, and just overall training. These Euro kids are going to be trying to emulate Luka they way guys like Kobe, TMac, Finley, and Stackhouse did with Jordan.
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Old 08-13-2018, 09:39 PM   #344
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Luka would never say shit like that. Knew it's fake the moment I read it. Doncic is mature beyond his years, not only on the court but mentally too.

Regarding the athleticism, Luka will certainly get better. The athletic prime (both strength and explosiveness) starts at around 25 years old. Just look at the discus throwers (a sport that requires extreme strength, co-ordination and explosiveness)... None of the best ones are younger than 24-25.
That's too bad. I knew there was a bit of an IG feud between the two. Thought maybe it was a real quote.
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Old 08-14-2018, 09:20 AM   #345
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So I was thinking about the Doncic to Kidd comparison on the way home last night. Feel free to shoot holes, but this is just where my line of thought led. I'm worried that Doncic will be a hall of fame player but will not possess the scoring ability that is needed for a team's #1 guy. Kidd was never a scorer and wasn't able to carry a team on his own. Championship teams need a go-to guy that will score when it's critical. Magic Johnson may be the last championship player that was know more for his passing than scoring, but at the end of the day, he was able still able to force his way to the bucket.

Is this wrong? Will Luka actually become a primary go-to guy when we need it? Will he be the #1 team guy while DSJ becomes the #1 score guy? Is this team still another superstar player away from being a true contender?
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Old 08-14-2018, 10:10 AM   #346
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So I was thinking about the Doncic to Kidd comparison on the way home last night. Feel free to shoot holes, but this is just where my line of thought led. I'm worried that Doncic will be a hall of fame player but will not possess the scoring ability that is needed for a team's #1 guy. Kidd was never a scorer and wasn't able to carry a team on his own. Championship teams need a go-to guy that will score when it's critical. Magic Johnson may be the last championship player that was know more for his passing than scoring, but at the end of the day, he was able still able to force his way to the bucket.

Is this wrong? Will Luka actually become a primary go-to guy when we need it? Will he be the #1 team guy while DSJ becomes the #1 score guy? Is this team still another superstar player away from being a true contender?
If Doncic comes in with no mental midgotry about the NBA, isn't star struck etc.. and his success lives and dies by just his ability alone, you have to think he has what it takes to be THIS teams 1a eventually. Barnes has proven fully capable of carrying more than his fair share of weight. DSJ is doing all the right things to realize his full potential. We should all be shocked if it's not a roller coaster for a while, maybe even for the first season for Luka. It took a while for Dirk to adjust and he was absolutely dominant going into the NBA. The game isn't as rough as it was for Dirks rookie year so that's a plus for him.

Without knowing the Doncic effect, this team is unquestionably another superstar or a couple of great players from being a true contender. There's such a small chance that Doncic is a superstar here right out of the box.
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Old 08-14-2018, 10:27 AM   #347
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So I was thinking about the Doncic to Kidd comparison on the way home last night. Feel free to shoot holes, but this is just where my line of thought led. I'm worried that Doncic will be a hall of fame player but will not possess the scoring ability that is needed for a team's #1 guy. Kidd was never a scorer and wasn't able to carry a team on his own. Championship teams need a go-to guy that will score when it's critical. Magic Johnson may be the last championship player that was know more for his passing than scoring, but at the end of the day, he was able still able to force his way to the bucket.

Is this wrong? Will Luka actually become a primary go-to guy when we need it? Will he be the #1 team guy while DSJ becomes the #1 score guy? Is this team still another superstar player away from being a true contender?
ways they're alike
big, bulky guys with good height
average athleticism, but incredible BBIQ
Great playmakers that can also rebound

ways they're different
Kidd was a really subpar shooter coming into the league. Doncic is fairly promising.
Kidd was an elite defensive threat. Doncic has potential to be good
Doncic is just as comfortable calling his own number as he is passing it. Dude has absolutely no problem pulling up for a three while Kidd even passed up a lot of open layups to pass the ball and had zero confidence on his jumper.

Kidd brought defense, rebounding, and playmaking and learned to be a passable NBA scorer later in his career
Doncic brings offense, rebounding, and playmaking and will hopefully get to be a passable defender with time.

Doncic's career is also going to be judged by his efficiency. He loves to score and call his own number and has no problem being the guy to take the shot, but right now (at only 19) his efficiency and consistency are lacking. If he gets stuck with 45%/35% from three, he'll be a solid starter. If he can get his numbers closer to 50%/40%, he'll be one of the best of all time, but that's a huge if.
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Old 08-19-2018, 01:23 PM   #348
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Where is the kidd had avg athletecism coming from? Young kidd was one of the most athletic pgs in league history before rose/Westbrook/dsj. Am I the only one that watched young kidd????
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Old 08-19-2018, 02:00 PM   #349
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Where is the kidd had avg athletecism coming from? Young kidd was one of the most athletic pgs in league history before rose/Westbrook/dsj. Am I the only one that watched young kidd????
Agreed, and the downplaying of Doncic's lack of athleticism is silly. He isn't as bad as I first thought, but he really needs to work on it. I think that's something that can be improved upon with the right exercises, but he needs to do them as a younger player which means now.

I know Dirk did those squat lunges from one side of the court to the other to help him out. Kills the knees, but it should definitely help Luka.
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Old 08-19-2018, 03:05 PM   #350
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Old 08-19-2018, 04:38 PM   #351
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Young kidd was one of the most athletic pgs in league history before rose/Westbrook/dsj.
I'd argue Allen Iverson, Robert Pack, Dee Brown, Ron Harper, Rod Strickland, Kevin Johnson, Penny Hardaway, Gary Payton, Kenny Anderson, Kenny Smith, Stephon Marbury, Isiah Thomas and Spud Webb were all much more athletic than Kidd and those are the ones just in his era.

Kidd was much more skilled than most of them but I'd say his athleticism was average at best.

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Old 08-19-2018, 06:09 PM   #352
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I'd argue Allen Iverson, Robert Pack, Dee Brown, Ron Harper, Rod Strickland, Kevin Johnson, Penny Hardaway, Gary Payton, Kenny Anderson, Kenny Smith, Stephon Marbury, Isiah Thomas and Spud Webb were all much more athletic than Kidd and those are the ones just in his era.

Kidd was much more skilled than most of them but I'd say his athleticism was average at best.
You'd be wrong on all of them but iverson. Kidd was specifically definitely more athletic than Gary payton they played since they were kids. I think you are confusing post micro fracture surgery kidd and young kidd. Young kidd was about equal to slightly more athletic than John wall.
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Old 08-19-2018, 06:14 PM   #353
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I'd argue Allen Iverson, Robert Pack, Dee Brown, Ron Harper, Rod Strickland, Kevin Johnson, Penny Hardaway, Gary Payton, Kenny Anderson, Kenny Smith, Stephon Marbury, Isiah Thomas and Spud Webb were all much more athletic than Kidd and those are the ones just in his era.

Kidd was much more skilled than most of them but I'd say his athleticism was average at best.
You'd be wrong on all of them but iverson. Kidd was specifically definitely more athletic than Gary payton they played since they were kids. I think you are confusing post micro fracture surgery kidd and young kidd. Young kidd was about equal to slightly more athletic than John wall.
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Old 08-19-2018, 06:16 PM   #354
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You'd be wrong on all of them but iverson. Kidd was specifically definitely more athletic than Gary payton they played since they were kids. I think you are confusing post micro fracture surgery kidd and young kidd. Young kidd was about equal to slightly more athletic than John wall.
Kidd was not even close to Robert Pack, Ron Harper, Dee Brown, Rod Strickland, Kenny Smith, Kevin Johnson and Spud athletically....that isn't even debatable. Some of the others are debatable.
Hell, I barely recall ever watching Kidd dunk.

Kidd was a tenacious player on both sides of the ball and had incredible hands and IQ that allowed him to have complete control of the game, especially in the open court, but he wasn't known for his athleticism....ever.

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Old 08-19-2018, 08:51 PM   #355
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So just to be clear you think that a pg who couldn't shoot at all was drafted number 2 overall behind an all time type prospect in grant hill and was co rookie of the year and one of the all time great on ball defenders despite not being any more than an average athlete?

He wasn't an explosive leaper but he had great speed and he's the strongest normal sized pg ever(and yes strength is part of athletecism)

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Old 08-19-2018, 10:44 PM   #356
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his combine athletics numbers were merely average. Dude is an incredible talent, but he did more with smarts than raw speed.
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Old 08-19-2018, 11:04 PM   #357
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his combine athletics numbers were merely average. Dude is an incredible talent, but he did more with smarts than raw speed.
Doncic or Kidd?

(oh, wait -- Doncic wasn't at the combine...)
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Old 08-20-2018, 04:38 AM   #358
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his combine athletics numbers were merely average. Dude is an incredible talent, but he did more with smarts than raw speed.
So are Russell Westbrook and Andre igoudala's.
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Old 08-20-2018, 11:12 AM   #359
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So just to be clear you think that a pg who couldn't shoot at all was drafted number 2 overall behind an all time type prospect in grant hill and was co rookie of the year and one of the all time great on ball defenders despite not being any more than an average athlete?

He wasn't an explosive leaper but he had great speed and he's the strongest normal sized pg ever(and yes strength is part of athletecism)
Kidd was probably one of the fastest i've seen going end to end dribbling a basketball.

His physical strength was evident with his hands and also in his lower body where he could defend bigger guys in the post .

Not your first thought when it comes to someone who stands out for athleticism but certainly a great athlete who did even better because of his basketball smarts.

as far as the draft - Kidd was taken before Hill - that's what you meant right?
i remember really wanting the mavs to take Hill and just plug him in at pg. maybe the mavs could have taken the lead on positionless basketball back in those days.
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Old 08-20-2018, 12:38 PM   #360
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Here's the thing: Kidd's sprinting speed was really good (above average), but that wouldn't mean anything if he couldn't dribble. He had excellent handles and was one of the most dangerous guys in the open court and even beat faster PGs up the court because of his excellent handles and high drive. Doesn't matter if you can run fast if you can't keep the dribble alive while you do it. Even the threat of his fast break changed the defense and it made him dangerous, even when he couldn't hit the three and just like Doncic, teams didn't just have to predict where he was going, but also where his teammates were because he was just as adept at the pass.

Kidd's lateral quickness (side to side) was BELOW average at the combine, which should have been a red flag for his defense and yet basketball is so much more about intelligence, teamwork, prediction, and quick mental decision making-- all of which Kidd is superb at. We all know Kidd was perhaps the best defensive guard in the league and is up there with Gary Payton as best defensive PG ever. Maybe his raw athleticism wasn't there, but they aren't a great measure of the total player. Kidd was not a below average defender like his measurements may have implied. He was one of the best of all time.

Kidd also had excellent height (6'4") for his position and good strength.

Now back to Doncic, which is what the whole thread is (supposedly) about. Doncic has good height and decent strength. He also has those immeasurable underlying skills that Kidd had. The fact that Kidd didn't have the entire physical package makes me optimistic about Doncic's ability to be successful on both ends of the court.
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