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Old 03-27-2009, 11:26 PM   #41
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Uh Oh another member. This bus is getting full..
http://www.economist.com/opinion/dis...ry_id=13362895
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Despite his resounding electoral victory, his solid majorities in both chambers of Congress and the obvious goodwill of the bulk of the electorate, Mr Obama has seemed curiously feeble.
Empty posts, weak policies

There are two main reasons for this. The first is Mr Obama’s failure to grapple as fast and as single-mindedly with the economy as he should have done. His stimulus package, though huge, was subcontracted to Congress, which did a mediocre job: too much of the money will arrive too late to be of help in the current crisis. His budget, though in some ways more honest than his predecessor’s, is wildly optimistic. And he has taken too long to produce his plan for dealing with the trillions of dollars of toxic assets which fester on banks’ balance-sheets.

The failure to staff the Treasury is a shocking illustration of administrative drift. There are 23 slots at the department that need confirmation by the Senate, and only two have been filled. This is not the Senate’s fault. Mr Obama has made a series of bad picks of people who have chosen or been forced to withdraw; and it was only this week that he announced his candidates for two of the department’s four most senior posts. Filling such jobs is always a tortuous business in America, but Mr Obama has made it harder by insisting on a level of scrutiny far beyond anything previously attempted. Getting the Treasury team in place ought to have been his first priority.

Second, Mr Obama has mishandled his relations with both sides in Congress. Though he campaigned as a centrist and promised an era of post-partisan government, that’s not how he has behaved. His stimulus bill attracted only three Republican votes in the Senate and none in the House. This bodes ill for the passage of more difficult projects, such as his big plans for carbon-emissions control and health-care reform. Keeping those promises will soon start to bedevil the administration. The Republicans must take their share of the blame for the breakdown. But if Mr Obama had done a better job of selling his package, and had worked harder at making sure that Republicans were included in drafting it, they would have found it more difficult to oppose his plans.

If Mr Obama cannot work with the Republicans, he needs to be certain that he controls his own party. Unfortunately, he seems unable to. Put bluntly, the Democrats are messing him around. They are pushing pro-trade-union legislation (notably a measure to get rid of secret ballots) even though he doesn’t want them to do so; they have been roughing up the bankers even though it makes his task of fixing the economy much harder; they have stuffed his stimulus package and his appropriations bill with pork, even though this damages him and his party in the eyes of the electorate. Worst of all, he is letting them get away with it.
Lead, dammit

There are some signs that Mr Obama’s administration is learning. This week the battered treasury secretary, Tim Geithner, has at last come up with a detailed plan to rescue the banks (see article and article). Its success is far from guaranteed, and the mood of Congress and the public has soured to the point where, should this plan fail, getting another one off the drawing-board will be exceedingly hard. But the plan at least demonstrates the administration’s acceptance that it must work with the bankers, instead of riding the wave of popular opinion against them, if it is to repair America’s economy. And it’s not just in the domestic arena that Mr Obama has demonstrated his willingness to learn: on Iraq, he has intelligently recalibrated his views, coming up with a plan for withdrawal that seeks to consolidate the gains in Iraq while limiting the costs to America.
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Old 03-28-2009, 08:31 PM   #42
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On the subject of Dude and Mavdog's debate over a president owning a bill that he signs... Let's go back to the War Spending billing dubya pushed for. The bill he received had a timetable for troop withdrawals, so he vetoed it. What happenend? Did the troops just lose funding and come home? No. Congress passed a new bill, which the president signed. So, if Obama didn't like the bill with the mexican trucking thing in it, he could have vetoed it and pushed for a new bill that didn't include it. But he didn't do that.
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Old 03-28-2009, 08:51 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by jefelump View Post
On the subject of Dude and Mavdog's debate over a president owning a bill that he signs... Let's go back to the War Spending billing dubya pushed for. The bill he received had a timetable for troop withdrawals, so he vetoed it. What happenend? Did the troops just lose funding and come home? No. Congress passed a new bill, which the president signed. So, if Obama didn't like the bill with the mexican trucking thing in it, he could have vetoed it and pushed for a new bill that didn't include it. But he didn't do that.
oh yeah, the 2nd bill bush vetoed during his entire 8 years in office..he certainly used that power effectively, didn't he.

the two bills are not comparable. the iraq funding bill was for just that...funding the war. the funds were available to keep the war going while another bill was passed.

the trucking ban was contained in the bill that kept the federal government funded for the rest of 2009, and it was already 6 months late in its passing. if obama vetoed the bill the federal government would have likely run out of funds before another bill would have been negotiated and passed.

vetoing the federal spending bill over a small item such as the trucking issue would have been a very poor decision by obama with severe political ramifications. the restoration of funds for the trucking program can be accomplished without much affect, the shutting down of the federal government would have a much larger (and dramatic) affect.

so you're analogy doesn't work. nice try tho.


don't you wonder why bush only vetoed 2 bills his entire terms? seems as though he just didn't care to take a stand on the issues and defend his position. he would never had risked an override of his veto.
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Old 03-28-2009, 10:42 PM   #44
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oh yeah, the 2nd bill bush vetoed during his entire 8 years in office..he certainly used that power effectively, didn't he. .
No he didn't...to the detriment of his presidency and the country..

Nor does it appear that theOne will either. If he won't veto that obscened spending bill then he won't veto anything I expect.
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Old 03-29-2009, 08:54 AM   #45
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No he didn't...to the detriment of his presidency and the country..

Nor does it appear that theOne will either. If he won't veto that obscened spending bill then he won't veto anything I expect.
"obscened"? why did you never use that phrase for the spending bills throughout this past decade, only to now hurl it out as if this spending bill is somehow different when it was just congressional business as usual?

oh, I know the answer....it's "that guy in the white house", right?

at least we can understand where your frame of reference lays, even if it is inconsistent to say the least.

btw can you share that crystal ball you appear to have that allows you to see the future? I'm going to vegas in may and could use the help.
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Old 03-29-2009, 10:20 AM   #46
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"obscened"? why did you never use that phrase for the spending bills throughout this past decade, only to now hurl it out as if this spending bill is somehow different when it was just congressional business as usual?

oh, I know the answer....it's "that guy in the white house", right?

at least we can understand where your frame of reference lays, even if it is inconsistent to say the least.

btw can you share that crystal ball you appear to have that allows you to see the future? I'm going to vegas in may and could use the help.
Because building a bridge in Iraq is "military spending", but building a bridge in the U.S. is "socialism".

Get with the damn program, mavie!

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Old 03-31-2009, 09:42 AM   #47
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It has something to do with trying to win a war..versus buying votes.

And since you seem to have a problem with recognizing obscene when you see it, here it is re-posted.

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Old 03-31-2009, 10:49 AM   #48
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it is laughable to keep reading that the obama initiatives to battle the nation's economic ills is just "buying votes".

wonder what the right would call the obama administration sitting on their hands and doing nothing about the economic mess?

something tells me it would be just as uncomplimentary, proving that obama is in a no-win situation with the right, he's going to be damned for doing something about the mess (see above) and he would be damned for not doing something about the mess.
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Old 03-31-2009, 11:44 AM   #49
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Then again...while he's making the mess worse, the left will go to no end in defending the chosen one.

Just as many of us have gone to no end in Defending our candidates/elected officials.

Such as blindly supporting President Bush based on his stance with National Defense, and honestly, my trust in him and his faith as a guide to how he made daily decisions.

With Obama, I have no idea what his absolute is...what is his Higher Power? Thus I don't trust the man. His bailout policies are hurting americans, his tax policies are hurting americans, rich or poor...while he feeds his buddies lots of money.

"Follow the Money" - seems to implicating every party line...
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Old 03-31-2009, 11:53 AM   #50
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Then again...while he's making the mess worse, the left will go to no end in defending the chosen one.
wow, you can see the future! amazing ability....

so far, things are not "getting worse" and in fact the indicies are showing either improvement or at the least stabilizing.

as much as you and rush want things to get "worse", that hopefully will not happen.

for the life of me I do not understand the right wanting things to get "worse". sorta like wishing a person will fail or get really, really sick just so they can say "I told you so.."
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Old 03-31-2009, 12:05 PM   #51
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No I don't want things to get worse, but we can see that the current trend and the history of liberal agendas do get worse.

There is a major difference...we want what is best for America so that things can have a shot at getting better and thus the 2010 elections will be a vote for "Change we can trust"

If you want to see people wanting failure, how about all the liberals who wanted the war to fail? Then when we succeeded, every liberal rag decided to undereport the success in fear that they couldn't get their guy elected.

The Democrats and Liberals actions the past 8 years + has been absolutely PATHETIC.

We are at a clear divide between ideologies...America is clearly split on its view of what is best for the future...sadly the two can not co-exist...one will ultimately have to come to grips and tolerate the other. Currently it is the conservatives who have to tolerate liberalism...desperately clinging to our freedoms as the liberals erode them away one by one. Gloating every step of the way.

Who knows what the future holds...but if it keeps going the liberals way, this will be a miserable place to be...not just America, but the world in general.

At least I have other things in life that I enjoy, which help me escape the negativity of politics.
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Old 03-31-2009, 12:14 PM   #52
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No I don't want things to get worse, but we can see that the current trend and the history of liberal agendas do get worse.

There is a major difference...we want what is best for America so that things can have a shot at getting better and thus the 2010 elections will be a vote for "Change we can trust"

If you want to see people wanting failure, how about all the liberals who wanted the war to fail? Then when we succeeded, every liberal rag decided to undereport the success in fear that they couldn't get their guy elected.

The Democrats and Liberals actions the past 8 years + has been absolutely PATHETIC.

We are at a clear divide between ideologies...America is clearly split on its view of what is best for the future...sadly the two can not co-exist...one will ultimately have to come to grips and tolerate the other. Currently it is the conservatives who have to tolerate liberalism...desperately clinging to our freedoms as the liberals erode them away one by one. Gloating every step of the way.

Who knows what the future holds...but if it keeps going the liberals way, this will be a miserable place to be...not just America, but the world in general.

At least I have other things in life that I enjoy, which help me escape the negativity of politics.
So what you're saying is that liberals and conservatives need to learn to get along....... as long as the conservatives are running the show???

Yeah - that should fix everything...


(also, I love how you state that the Democrats destroyed America for the last 8 years when the Republicans had all the control... That makes so much sense!)



Seriously - put down the coke straw!

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Old 03-31-2009, 12:17 PM   #53
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[QUOTE=Underdog;979880]So what you're saying is that liberals and conservatives need to learn to get along....... as long as the conservatives are running the show???

Yeah - that should fix everything...


(also, I love how you state that the Democrats destroyed America for the last 8 years when the Republicans had all the control... That makes so much sense!)






I love how you completely twist everything to meet your own foolish agenda...obviously you didn't understand a single word of what I have been posting, thus no matter what I say, doubt that you have the ability to comprehend...thus no need to repeat myself.

Go back to your room rainman...

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Old 03-31-2009, 12:23 PM   #54
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I love how you completely twist everything to meet your own foolish agenda...obviously you didn't understand a single word of what I have been posting, thus no matter what I say, doubt that you have the ability to comprehend...thus no need to repeat myself.

Go back to your room rainman...
What's MY agenda again??? (I'm certainly not a Democrat, nor did I vote for Obama...)

I understand what you're saying - do you?

Seriously - explain to me how the Democrats ruined America while the Republicans had all the power because I'm still not getting how that works (sorry - I don't know where to buy enough cocaine for that to make sense...)
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Old 03-31-2009, 12:29 PM   #55
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What's MY agenda again??? (I'm certainly not a Democrat, nor did I vote for Obama...)

I understand what you're saying - do you?

Seriously - explain to me how the Democrats ruined America while the Republicans had all the power because I'm still not getting how that works (sorry - I don't know where to buy enough cocaine for that to make sense...)
Why don't you go first...my comment was that Democrats have been rooting for America to lose the war...

As for policies and what Dem/Libs have done throughout...we might as well start another thread...heck another board if you want...there are more than enough topics that have been discussed regarding the problems of liberal politics...but somehow you have decided to take this as a personal attack on me...are you sure you are not silksmoove in disguise?

Have a great day...it's time for me to do my part to bail out america!!!
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Old 03-31-2009, 12:46 PM   #56
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Why don't you go first...my comment was that Democrats have been rooting for America to lose the war...
That's hilarious - if half of America wanted us to "lose" the war then we'd already be under the boot of China...

Most the people who opposed the war did so because it was a needless waste of life and resources to indefinitely occupy Iraq when Osama bin Laden is STILL at large elsewhere in the world... What's our exit strategy again? (because 6 years later I have yet to hear one...)

Plus, Obama is sending MORE troops to the region (a friend of mine is shipping out next week), so don't give me that crap about Democrats not wanting to "win" the war in Iraq... Our national defense policy is much bigger than partisan politics...
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Old 03-31-2009, 01:54 PM   #57
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I don't think half America wanted the war to fail. They wanted the war to be over with, however that is achieved, and the troops returned back home. And I think that was more than half.

And there's no way, no how the Iraq war was sold on "liberating Iraq" and I'll never, ever, ever buy that. It was all about WMD. There were none. Then it turned into "liberating Iraq."

Then it turned into "Iraq is a terrorist harboring state." They never did make up their mind about what this war is about, or did they and I didn't hear?

What's winning Iraq? Turning it into a democracy? Did you ever wonder that maybe some places aren't meant to be democracies? (hint: Iraq?).
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Old 03-31-2009, 02:24 PM   #58
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No I don't want things to get worse, but we can see that the current trend and the history of liberal agendas do get worse.

There is a major difference...we want what is best for America so that things can have a shot at getting better and thus the 2010 elections will be a vote for "Change we can trust"
there you go again, making the right out to be the only ones who "want whats best for america".

let's see, insulting, demeaning, arrogant, self-serving...all of those apply to your attitude.

of course there is also repulsive, absurd, ignorant, wrong....see, the other side is just as patriotic, loves their country just as much as the right, they just have a different view and opinion of how to improve our country.

Quote:
If you want to see people wanting failure, how about all the liberals who wanted the war to fail? Then when we succeeded, every liberal rag decided to undereport the success in fear that they couldn't get their guy elected.

The Democrats and Liberals actions the past 8 years + has been absolutely PATHETIC.
no, the people who opposed the war wanted the war to cease. wasn't the war to remove saddam hussein? well, that war was won in a week...the rest of the 6 years has been trying to resolve the negatives that the illconceived decision to invade iraq brought.

as for the "last 8 years", you do not have a good memory of short term history. the republican party was in total control for 6 of those 8 years, and in partial control for the last 2.

so blame the republicans if you want to assign blame.

Quote:
We are at a clear divide between ideologies...America is clearly split on its view of what is best for the future...sadly the two can not co-exist...one will ultimately have to come to grips and tolerate the other. Currently it is the conservatives who have to tolerate liberalism...desperately clinging to our freedoms as the liberals erode them away one by one. Gloating every step of the way.

Who knows what the future holds...but if it keeps going the liberals way, this will be a miserable place to be...not just America, but the world in general.

At least I have other things in life that I enjoy, which help me escape the negativity of politics.
odd, as it was the republican administration who pushed through the law that restricted our freedoms more than any other in history...and yes, the republicans "gloated all the way" as they limited our citizen's freedoms.

get out and enjoy life without this pessimism you express, there's a lot to be positive about.
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Old 04-01-2009, 11:22 AM   #59
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...Seriously - put down the coke straw!

Like VP Joe Biden's daughter Ashley should have?

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusive...ocaine-scandal
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Old 04-01-2009, 11:31 AM   #60
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For what it's worth...I'm against reporting on Obama or Bidens kids...or other politicians for that matter.

These kids have enough challenges, they don't need to be scrutinized by media or the rest of us who don't know them personally.

Report on Biden and his politics...or other NON-Family related topics...but again, from my view...kids are off-limits.

Anybody else agree with me on this one?
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Old 04-01-2009, 12:21 PM   #61
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Like VP Joe Biden's daughter Ashley should have?

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusive...ocaine-scandal
Daddy's little coke whore - they certainly do reflect America...


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Old 04-01-2009, 01:33 PM   #62
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I have been wrong and thus now renounce my support for the Republican party.

I am having a serving of crow for lunch and now will cast my unbiased support towards Obama and the Democratic Party!!!

Consider me a born again liberal democrat...I am joining forces with others from this board who have brought me out of darkness and into the light...I am free at last!!!
































April Fools!!!

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Old 04-02-2009, 05:51 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Mavdog View Post
it is laughable to keep reading that the obama initiatives to battle the nation's economic ills is just "buying votes".

wonder what the right would call the obama administration sitting on their hands and doing nothing about the economic mess?

something tells me it would be just as uncomplimentary, proving that obama is in a no-win situation with the right, he's going to be damned for doing something about the mess (see above) and he would be damned for not doing something about the mess.
If theOne were actually trying to stimulate economic activity instead of buying votes, they'd be hurrahing him and probably voting it in over the howls of pelosi. Sort of like bubba and welfare reform and balanced budgets.
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Old 04-03-2009, 09:34 AM   #64
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Kim Young Il is definitely NOT a member of the official buyers remorse club.

Quote:
President Barack Obama told his South Korean counterpart, Lee Myung-Bak, at the Group of 20 nations summit in London today he won’t allow North Korea to drive a wedge between them, said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity. Obama praised Lee for exercising restraint in dealing with provocations from the North. Both leaders agreed to respond to the launch by registering a firm protest with the United Nations.
I think I saw this scenario in a movie somewhere?

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Old 04-03-2009, 10:49 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by dude1394 View Post
Kim Young Il is definitely NOT a member of the official buyers remorse club.

I think I saw this scenario in a movie somewhere?
and the alternative that the right would rather see done is what exactly? are you beating the drums of war now?

frankly, outside of direct military action, there is nothing that would produce a different result.

the bush administration sure didn't find more success in their "axis of evil" approach did they?
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Old 04-03-2009, 11:58 AM   #66
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Yes they did, they won the war against Iraq!

"We support your 'war of terror!' May your George Bush drink the blood of every single man, woman and child of Iraq! May you destroy their country so that for the next thousand years, not even a single lizard will survive in their desert!"
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Old 04-05-2009, 10:51 AM   #67
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Obviously the Saudi King is NOT in the club. Dang and I thought dubya was supposed to be friends with these dudes.

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Old 04-05-2009, 06:15 PM   #68
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your posts are becoming more ridiculous each day dude.

they have reached the nadir of meaningless.
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Old 04-05-2009, 10:07 PM   #69
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your posts are becoming more ridiculous each day dude.

they have reached the nadir of meaningless.
Your hero-worship is starting to trouble me.
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Old 04-06-2009, 07:25 AM   #70
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Your hero-worship is starting to trouble me.
is it "hero worship" to question your posting a photo of the queen of england and some arabs meeting with obama as somehow meaning something?

if you have some criticism, go ahead. to merely put out this stuff, well....it makes you look a taco short of a mexican plate.
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Old 04-06-2009, 08:03 AM   #71
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is it "hero worship" to question your posting a photo of the queen of england and some arabs meeting with obama as somehow meaning something?

if you have some criticism, go ahead. to merely put out this stuff, well....it makes you look a taco short of a mexican plate.
No what's hero-worship that no slight, no criticism, no joke, goes unchallenged and rationalized. TheOne could bite a chickens head off and you'd find a way to rationalize it right now.

You've got it bad.....real bad....
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Old 04-06-2009, 08:51 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by dude1394 View Post
No what's hero-worship that no slight, no criticism, no joke, goes unchallenged and rationalized. TheOne could bite a chickens head off and you'd find a way to rationalize it right now.

You've got it bad.....real bad....
OK, so explain how the queen of england and the arabs have ANYTHING to do with the obama administration....much less the current situation with north korea, and how the response by the obama administration should change.

see, what you are doing is merely self flaggellation. interesting to watch, but devoid of meaning.
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Old 04-06-2009, 09:39 AM   #73
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TheOne photo was ironical, I thought about finding one with only theOne in it but didn't bother.

In that he was bowing down to the Saudia Arabia king and no one says boo about it. Whereas even Clinton was taken to task by the NYTimes for even a very,very slight bow to the King.. And dubya was taken to task for holding the dudes hand.

But bow in deferecne...nothing...nada..hence the posting of the photo. For what it's worth, IMO the US prez. should bow to no one. It's not a big deal, I don't expect theOne (or democrats in general to be honest) to have much respect for traditions. So I'm not all bent out of shape over it, just funny..your reaction just makes it funnier.

For all of the hero-worshippers out there...

Quote:
He was just blinded by the light
Cut loose like a deuce another runner in the night
Blinded by the light
Mama always told me not to look into the sights of the sun
Oh but mama that's where the fun is
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Old 04-06-2009, 10:59 AM   #74
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.

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Old 04-06-2009, 11:00 AM   #75
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Now there's a classic...I used to have that song on a 45 single, I keep trying to remember what was on the flip side...forgive me, but I believe the band was Manfred Man's Earth Band or something like that. Dang, now I'm getting some serious flash backs!!! Thanks for the trip!!!
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Old 04-06-2009, 06:10 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by dude1394 View Post
TheOne photo was ironical, I thought about finding one with only theOne in it but didn't bother.

In that he was bowing down to the Saudia Arabia king and no one says boo about it. Whereas even Clinton was taken to task by the NYTimes for even a very,very slight bow to the King.. And dubya was taken to task for holding the dudes hand.
you're exhibitng a severe case of exaggeration. first, the "bow" is done by most people, inc our president, to not only royalty but it (in case you didn't know) is a custom of respect in many cultures.

and the photot of the queen? just what was that all about?

would like to see the "taken to task" of bush for shaking a "dudes hand"...

Quote:
But bow in deferecne...nothing...nada..hence the posting of the photo. For what it's worth, IMO the US prez. should bow to no one. It's not a big deal, I don't expect theOne (or democrats in general to be honest) to have much respect for traditions. So I'm not all bent out of shape over it, just funny..your reaction just makes it funnier.

For all of the hero-worshippers out there...
let's sort out this contradiction...on the one hand, you don't want our prez to "bow to no one", but then you believe the prez should "have...respect for tradition". so if it is "tradition" to show respect by bowing, an act that many of our president's have done out of "respect" for those cultures where a bow is typically done, which is he to do?

just another case of damned if he does, damned if he doesn't by the right....

my reaction? this isn't anything to make a case out of. see, I'm not getting bent out of shape by insignifigant, trivial bs. too bad the right and you in particular can't seem to follow that road.

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Old 04-06-2009, 07:37 PM   #77
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From cbs

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...in691413.shtml

Quote:
Abdullah-Bush Stroll Strikes Nerve
President Bush and Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah holding hands as they stroll. It's only Wednesday, but I think we can all agree on a "picture of the week."

"Picture of the week?" asks XXXX. "It might be picture of the month."

He's got a point, if headlines, cartoons and late night comics are any criteria.
As I said the picture of the queen was just the other side of the same photo. The photo had both of them side by side..I just didn't bother to find one only with obama.

Since you can't seem to get over that part. Here's the picture with only theOne.



NYTimes on Clinton
Quote:
In 1994 the New York Times strongly criticized Bill Clinton for a slight inclination of his shoulders towards Japanese Emperor Akihito. Yet today, when Barack Obama does an all-out bow before the King of Saudi Arabia the media has found it unworthy of any reporting, let alone criticism.

This is what the New York Times wrote in 1994: "It wasn’t a bow, exactly. But Mr. Clinton came close. He inclined his head and shoulders forward, he pressed his hands together. It lasted no longer than a snapshot, but the image on the South Lawn was indelible: an obsequent President, and the Emperor of Japan. Canadians still bow to England’s Queen; so do Australians. Americans shake hands. If not to stand eye-to-eye with royalty, what else were 1776 and all that about?... Guests invited to a white-tie state dinner at the White House (a Clinton Administration first) were instructed to address the Emperor as 'Your Majesty,' not 'Your Highness' or, worse, 'King.' And in what one Administration aide called 'some emperor thing,' an Army general was cautioned that he should not address the Emperor Akihito at all as he escorted him to the Tomb of the Unknowns at Arlington National Cemetery. But the 'thou need not bow' commandment from the State Department’s protocol office maintained a constancy of more than 200 years. Administration officials scurried to insist that the eager-to-please President had not really done the unthinkable."
Mavdog(and MSM) on Obama....can do no wrong, cannot be criticized.
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Old 04-06-2009, 08:34 PM   #78
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a quote from a new yorker saying men shouldn't hold hands with each other?

that's the best that you have? that's it?

good gahd man, get a grip......
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Old 04-07-2009, 10:27 AM   #79
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Be careful...looks like some dog might get a stain on her dress :-)

Hope everyone has a wonderful day!!!
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Old 04-07-2009, 11:27 AM   #80
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NYTimes on Clinton

Mavdog(and MSM) on Obama....can do no wrong, cannot be criticized.
I disagree with miss manners. jehl and the times view was wrong in 94, apparently their view has changed and now they're right in 2009.
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