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Old 12-20-2014, 07:30 PM   #1
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Default Two policemen executed for Brown/Garner

http://nypost.com/2014/12/20/2-nypd-...e-in-brooklyn/

Two uniformed NYPD officers were shot dead Saturday afternoon as they sat in their marked police car on a Brooklyn street corner — in what investigators believe was a crazed gunman’s *assassination-style mission to avenge Eric Garner and Michael Brown.
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Old 12-20-2014, 07:38 PM   #2
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Is this supposed to be political? Otherwise it's just sad.
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Old 12-21-2014, 12:02 AM   #3
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If only they had guns to defend themselves. Oh wait...
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Old 12-21-2014, 12:18 AM   #4
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If only they had guns to defend themselves. Oh wait...
I don't get the point of your statement...
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Old 12-21-2014, 12:29 AM   #5
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I don't get the point of your statement...
It is constantly argued by the pro-gun crowd that people will really be safer with loose gun laws because you'll be better able to defend yourself since you will also have easier access to guns. Hence the constant refrain from the pro-gun people, "the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun."

In this instance you had two well armed and well trained police officers unable to defend themselves against some random crazy guy with a gun who got the jump on them. Clearly a better solution would be to put severe restrictions on gun ownership and what kind of guns should be available (if I had my druthers we would ban all guns).

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Old 12-21-2014, 12:34 AM   #6
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It is constantly argued by the pro-gun crowd that people will really be safer with loose gun laws because you'll be better able to defend yourself since you will also have easier access to guns. Hence the constant refrain from the pro-gun people, "the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun."

In this instance you had two well armed and well trained police officers unable to defend themselves against some random crazy guy with a gun who got the jump on them. Clearly a better solution would be to put severe restrictions on gun ownership and what kind of guns should be available (if I had my druthers we would ban all guns).
Was the gun that shot those cops obtained legally? If not, then I still don't get your point...
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Old 12-21-2014, 12:36 AM   #7
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Was the gun that shot those cops obtained legally? If not, then I still don't get your point...
Personally I think all guns should be banned. Which would make it astronomically harder to obtain a gun whether legally or illegally.
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Old 12-21-2014, 01:27 PM   #8
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First of all I have to say that my thoughts are with the family of the police officers, it's horrible to hear such news. But as sad as these momentes are they should also be used to see how the situation can be improved.

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Was the gun that shot those cops obtained legally? If not, then I still don't get your point...
Well, those criminals dont build guns themselves, even illegal guns were legally purchased at one point. And then either stolen or resold. Reducing the amount of legal guns available would automatically reduce the amount of illegal guns as well, and don't forget that many crimes are commited in some sort of "overreaction", and making it more difficult (not impossible) for people to get access to guns in such situations would already solve a lot of problems.

I'm not going to say that making all guns illegal is a good idea (or even possible), but it should definitely be more difficult to buy a gun than it is right now. As it was said by SeanL before, the US do have the highest homicide and gun crime rate in the western world, and it's not even close. Don't you think that making it more difficult to get a gun would slightly reduce those numbers? Just to mention it, the death rate per 100,000 population per year due to gun crime is over 10 in the US, it's about 1 in almost every western European country and 0.25 in the UK. And social problems can't be the only reason to have a 10-40 times higher gun crime rate, having such easy access to guns definitely has something to do with it.

If you look at Germany for example, it is legal to purchase a gun there. It's just not as easy as in the US. The requirements are more difficult and you need to wait a certain amount of time before you get the gun license, you also have to pass a psychological test and can't have any kind of criminal record. That system works much much better and makes a lot of sense to me, anyone who wants to be able to defend his house/life can still legally do so but a huge amount of people who want to commit a crime with a gun will be detected earlier.

Although it's obviously difficult to start such a system now as there are already a lot of guns around and in the hands of criminals, the law should have been changed decades ago. As much sense the 2nd amendment made when it was written it is just as obsolete today (or 100 years ago). It took 30 seconds to reload a gun for 1 more bullet back then, now it takes a trained person around 1 second to possibly reload more than 30 bullets. I dont think anyone thought about this when it was written. About 90 people out of 100 own a gun, that is the highest amount worlwide and almost as much as number 2 and 3 combined, there are almost more guns than people in the US. And as every statistical evidence can prove this does more harm than good.

As I said before, it would be ideal if it would simply be more difficult and ensured that responsible people own guns, and not available for every random crazy person. Other countries can make it work too, it obviously reduces the amount of homicides and non lethal gun crime. There really are no actual reasons to be against a change. It shouldnt and wouldnt be impossible to defend your life with a gun, it should just be made more difficult for others who dont just want to defend themselves to get a gun.
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Old 12-21-2014, 12:19 AM   #9
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If only they had guns to defend themselves. Oh wait...
SMH.
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Old 12-21-2014, 12:21 AM   #10
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Forum: Political Arena
Quote:
Originally Posted by dude1394 View Post
http://nypost.com/2014/12/20/2-nypd-...e-in-brooklyn/

Two uniformed NYPD officers were shot dead Saturday afternoon as they sat in their marked police car on a Brooklyn street corner — in what investigators believe was a crazed gunman’s *assassination-style mission to avenge Eric Garner and Michael Brown.
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Forum: Political Arena
Quote:
Originally Posted by dude1394 View Post
http://nypost.com/2014/12/20/2-nypd-...e-in-brooklyn/

Two uniformed NYPD officers were shot dead Saturday afternoon as they sat in their marked police car on a Brooklyn street corner — in what investigators believe was a crazed gunman’s *assassination-style mission to avenge Eric Garner and Michael Brown.
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Old 12-21-2014, 02:16 AM   #11
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You're such a fucking troll. Please tell us where else on this forum we can discuss this kind of issue. Go ahead, we're waiting.
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Old 12-21-2014, 12:03 PM   #12
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You're such a fucking troll. Please tell us where else on this forum we can discuss this kind of issue. Go ahead, we're waiting.
Seriously, explain to me how this is a political issue in any way.

If it doesn't fit into a particular board's description, it goes in The Lounge. Derp.
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Old 12-21-2014, 09:48 PM   #13
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Seriously, explain to me how this is a political issue in any way.

If it doesn't fit into a particular board's description, it goes in The Lounge. Derp.
How about you click on The Lounge and see what kinds of threads are posted there? Nothing of this level of seriousness is posted there, most of the threads there are threads that are lighthearted or meant for laughs. It's amazing how your first comment in this thread was about how it was posted in the Political Forum instead of actually speaking about the tragedy that took place. You proved you are a Troll.
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Old 12-22-2014, 01:09 AM   #14
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Seriously, explain to me how this is a political issue in any way.

If it doesn't fit into a particular board's description, it goes in The Lounge. Derp.
Become a mod, then you can censor posts hoever you like.
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Old 12-22-2014, 01:23 AM   #15
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Of course this is political. Cops are having a mini-strike against blasio because he was cozying up to the cop haters. Bambi has commented and commemted and commented about it, of course always tossing in some bambi political crap.

Damn near everything in the news except for kim kardashian is political.

Certainly ferguson is political, the entire cops are killing us meme is explicitly political.
I think it's being shamefully politicized, for sure, on equally despicable levels from both the pro- and anti-gun lobbies, but I don't think it's a political issue at all. It's a civil issue. Whether the police have too much power, not enough power, are unfairly targeting minorities, etc are all civil issues. Now yes, politicians have been weighing in and there has been newly-proposed legislature as a result of the Ferguson shooting in particular (i.e. policemen and women wearing cameras as standard dress), but I really don't feel this is a political issue at its core. Ferguson maybe, but not this particular tragedy.

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Become a mod, then you can censor posts hoever you like.
Deal!
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Old 12-21-2014, 12:03 PM   #16
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Sons goodbye to executed father.

http://a.disquscdn.com/uploads/media...6/original.jpg
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Old 12-21-2014, 10:33 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by LSMF View Post
How about you click on The Lounge and see what kinds of threads are posted there? Nothing of this level of seriousness is posted there, most of the threads there are threads that are lighthearted or meant for laughs. It's amazing how your first comment in this thread was about how it was posted in the Political Forum instead of actually speaking about the tragedy that took place. You proved you are a Troll.
Seriously...? Let's review:

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SMH.
Your first pointless reply offered absolutely ZERO perspective or remorse for this tragedy that you say you care about. It was 100% to comment on someone's political view of the topic, and not the topic itself. Almost by definition "trolling," which you are accusing me of! Keeping up?


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You're such a fucking troll. Please tell us where else on this forum we can discuss this kind of issue. Go ahead, we're waiting.
Your second post also doesn't make a single mention of the actual tragedy, which you obviously don't care about. But if other people make mention of a tangential topic... pitchforks up!

Quote:
Originally Posted by LSMF View Post
How about you click on The Lounge and see what kinds of threads are posted there? Nothing of this level of seriousness is posted there, most of the threads there are threads that are lighthearted or meant for laughs. It's amazing how your first comment in this thread was about how it was posted in the Political Forum instead of actually speaking about the tragedy that took place. You proved you are a Troll.
Your third post. You seem to care more about whether I am giving the tragedy enough respect, yet you make three posts and 89 words before you actually address it!

And again, you are the one calling me a troll!

Maybe my initial "derp" was misdirected.


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Old 12-21-2014, 11:29 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by spreedom View Post
Seriously...? Let's review:



Your first pointless reply offered absolutely ZERO perspective or remorse for this tragedy that you say you care about. It was 100% to comment on someone's political view of the topic, and not the topic itself. Almost by definition "trolling," which you are accusing me of! Keeping up?




Your second post also doesn't make a single mention of the actual tragedy, which you obviously don't care about. But if other people make mention of a tangential topic... pitchforks up!



Your third post. You seem to care more about whether I am giving the tragedy enough respect, yet you make three posts and 89 words before you actually address it!

And again, you are the one calling me a troll!

Maybe my initial "derp" was misdirected.
So your argument is essentially that because I didn't provide some kind of remorse on what happened I can't comment on you trolling? What a stupid argument. I didn't comment on what happened simply because there was nothing for me to say. I was shocked when I heard the reports. Does me saying something in this thread somehow change what happened? Does it help the families of the victims? This is an extremely sad and unfortunate incident that took place. I understand you hold some idiotic grudge against Dude, but couldn't you at least put that aside for this issue? Nope. You crying about this thread not being in the Lounge was more important. Damn, that's really pathetic.
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Old 12-21-2014, 11:46 PM   #19
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So your argument is essentially that because I didn't provide some kind of remorse on what happened I can't comment on you trolling? What a stupid argument. I didn't comment on what happened simply because there was nothing for me to say. I was shocked when I heard the reports. Does me saying something in this thread somehow change what happened? Does it help the families of the victims? This is an extremely sad and unfortunate incident that took place. I understand you hold some idiotic grudge against Dude, but couldn't you at least put that aside for this issue? Nope. You crying about this thread not being in the Lounge was more important. Damn, that's really pathetic.
Too much hypocritical butthurt to process in one sitting. Will re-evaluate at a later date.
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Old 12-21-2014, 12:56 AM   #20
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FWIW, the gunman was also a suspected gang member and allegedly murdered his girlfriend earlier in the morning.
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Old 12-21-2014, 01:09 AM   #21
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I agree with SeanL. Governments are the biggest murderers of all, and it's not even close. Therefore, government should ideally own all the guns, or at least keep track of them all.

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Old 12-21-2014, 01:13 AM   #22
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I agree with SeanL. Governments are the biggest murderers of all, and it's not even close. Therefore, government should ideally own all the guns, or at least keep track of them all.
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Old 12-21-2014, 12:05 PM   #23
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Unbelievably sad.
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Old 12-21-2014, 02:25 PM   #24
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Bambi weighs in. Expected tripe from "our" president.

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...rew-c-mccarthy
"‘Patient Dialogue’?

Well, at least he didn’t say police “acted stupidly.” But President Obama’s call for “patient dialogue” in the aftermath of the premeditated, cold-blooded murder of NYPD Officers Wenjian Lu and Rafael Ramos is maddening.

Dialogue is an exchange that takes place when there are competing points of view and it is reasonable to believe that both of them may have a point.

Does the president really think there are two sides to this story?

In the absence of any proof of racial animus on the part of police – in fact, in the face of overwhelming proof that police take great personal risks to protect minority communities – Obama and his attorney general have joined the administration at the hip with notorious demagogue Al Sharpton. Together with like-minded radicals like New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio, they promote a lethally dangerous smear that police lack human regard for the lives of black Americans.

This has not only divided our society – and Obama, like Sharpton, divides us out of the most shameful of political calculations. It has further signaled to a violent fringe Obama well knows is out there that savage acts against police and others are likely to be rationalized and tolerated – and, indeed, that violent acts short of murder will be ignored or sugar-coated as “peaceful protest.”

And now, two police officers have been murdered because they were sitting in their squad car wearing their uniforms – by a violent criminal who was clearly animated by the racially-charged, rabidly anti-police atmosphere Obama, Sharpton & Co. have promoted.

Before the murders happened, police were being assaulted on the streets of New York City, where the rabble felt free to chant, “What do we want? Dead cops! When do we want it? Now!” When the murders happened, some among the rabble engaged in the same kind of celebration that Islamists do when terrorists kill Americans or Israelis. And after the murders happened, others brayed that the killing of police would continue.

What it there to have “dialogue” about? What is the other side of this story that the president would have the widows and children of these two murdered officers hear? Or that he would have the police, who are now targets of the mob, understand?
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Old 12-21-2014, 03:22 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by dude1394 View Post
Bambi weighs in. Expected tripe from "our" president.

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...rew-c-mccarthy
"‘Patient Dialogue’?

Well, at least he didn’t say police “acted stupidly.” But President Obama’s call for “patient dialogue” in the aftermath of the premeditated, cold-blooded murder of NYPD Officers Wenjian Lu and Rafael Ramos is maddening.

Dialogue is an exchange that takes place when there are competing points of view and it is reasonable to believe that both of them may have a point.

Does the president really think there are two sides to this story?

In the absence of any proof of racial animus on the part of police – in fact, in the face of overwhelming proof that police take great personal risks to protect minority communities – Obama and his attorney general have joined the administration at the hip with notorious demagogue Al Sharpton. Together with like-minded radicals like New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio, they promote a lethally dangerous smear that police lack human regard for the lives of black Americans.

This has not only divided our society – and Obama, like Sharpton, divides us out of the most shameful of political calculations. It has further signaled to a violent fringe Obama well knows is out there that savage acts against police and others are likely to be rationalized and tolerated – and, indeed, that violent acts short of murder will be ignored or sugar-coated as “peaceful protest.”

And now, two police officers have been murdered because they were sitting in their squad car wearing their uniforms – by a violent criminal who was clearly animated by the racially-charged, rabidly anti-police atmosphere Obama, Sharpton & Co. have promoted.

Before the murders happened, police were being assaulted on the streets of New York City, where the rabble felt free to chant, “What do we want? Dead cops! When do we want it? Now!” When the murders happened, some among the rabble engaged in the same kind of celebration that Islamists do when terrorists kill Americans or Israelis. And after the murders happened, others brayed that the killing of police would continue.

What it there to have “dialogue” about? What is the other side of this story that the president would have the widows and children of these two murdered officers hear? Or that he would have the police, who are now targets of the mob, understand?
Obama asking people to stay calm... you mean, exactly what he said about Ferguson? Yeah what an asshole. Clearly he supports killing cops.
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Old 12-22-2014, 03:33 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by dude1394 View Post
Bambi weighs in. Expected tripe from "our" president.

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...rew-c-mccarthy
"‘Patient Dialogue’?

Well, at least he didn’t say police “acted stupidly.” But President Obama’s call for “patient dialogue” in the aftermath of the premeditated, cold-blooded murder of NYPD Officers Wenjian Lu and Rafael Ramos is maddening.

Dialogue is an exchange that takes place when there are competing points of view and it is reasonable to believe that both of them may have a point.

Does the president really think there are two sides to this story?

.....?
what the hell are you even talking about??? there is no debate or two sides of the story you are talking about (2 people were murdered in cold blood, and the POS that murdered them committed suicide. NOBODY (except morons like you) are debating the guilt or the tragedy here. I haven't heard discussion of broader conspiracies underlying this action at this point (except for from morons).


the dialogue ...that EVERYONE is asking for.. is "wow, this is terrible, what can we do to make it better?"

Last edited by mcsluggo; 12-22-2014 at 03:37 PM.
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Old 12-23-2014, 12:01 PM   #27
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http://www.city-journal.org/2014/eon1222hm.html

"Since last summer, a lie has overtaken significant parts of the country, resulting in growing mass hysteria. That lie holds that the police pose a mortal threat to black Americans—indeed that the police are the greatest threat facing black Americans today. Several subsidiary untruths buttress that central myth: that the criminal-justice system is biased against blacks; that the black underclass doesn’t exist; and that crime rates are comparable between blacks and whites—leaving disproportionate police action in minority neighborhoods unexplained without reference to racism. The poisonous effect of those lies has now manifested itself in the cold-blooded assassination of two NYPD officers.
....

The New York Times ratcheted up its already stratospheric level of anti-cop polemics. In an editorial justifying the Ferguson riots, the Times claimed that “the killing of young black men by police is a common feature of African-American life and a source of dread for black parents from coast to coast.” Some facts: Police killings of blacks are an extremely rare feature of black life and are a minute fraction of black homicide deaths. The police could end all killings of civilians tomorrow and it would have no effect on the black homicide risk, which comes overwhelmingly from other blacks. In 2013, there were 6,261 black homicide victims in the U.S.—almost all killed by black civilians—resulting in a death risk in inner cities that is ten times higher for blacks than for whites. None of those killings triggered mass protests; they are deemed normal and beneath notice. The police, by contrast, according to published reports, kill roughly 200 blacks a year, most of them armed and dangerous, out of about 40 million police-civilian contacts a year. Blacks are in fact killed by police at a lower rate than their threat to officers would predict. In 2013, blacks made up 42 percent of all cop killers whose race was known, even though blacks are only 13 percent of the nation’s population. The percentage of black suspects killed by the police nationally is 29 percent lower than the percentage of blacks mortally threatening them."

Joe bob says check it out.
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Old 12-23-2014, 01:13 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by dude1394 View Post
http://www.city-journal.org/2014/eon1222hm.html

"Since last summer, a lie has overtaken significant parts of the country, resulting in growing mass hysteria. That lie holds that the police pose a mortal threat to black Americans—indeed that the police are the greatest threat facing black Americans today. Several subsidiary untruths buttress that central myth: that the criminal-justice system is biased against blacks; that the black underclass doesn’t exist; and that crime rates are comparable between blacks and whites—leaving disproportionate police action in minority neighborhoods unexplained without reference to racism. The poisonous effect of those lies has now manifested itself in the cold-blooded assassination of two NYPD officers.
....

The New York Times ratcheted up its already stratospheric level of anti-cop polemics. In an editorial justifying the Ferguson riots, the Times claimed that “the killing of young black men by police is a common feature of African-American life and a source of dread for black parents from coast to coast.” Some facts: Police killings of blacks are an extremely rare feature of black life and are a minute fraction of black homicide deaths. The police could end all killings of civilians tomorrow and it would have no effect on the black homicide risk, which comes overwhelmingly from other blacks. In 2013, there were 6,261 black homicide victims in the U.S.—almost all killed by black civilians—resulting in a death risk in inner cities that is ten times higher for blacks than for whites. None of those killings triggered mass protests; they are deemed normal and beneath notice. The police, by contrast, according to published reports, kill roughly 200 blacks a year, most of them armed and dangerous, out of about 40 million police-civilian contacts a year. Blacks are in fact killed by police at a lower rate than their threat to officers would predict. In 2013, blacks made up 42 percent of all cop killers whose race was known, even though blacks are only 13 percent of the nation’s population. The percentage of black suspects killed by the police nationally is 29 percent lower than the percentage of blacks mortally threatening them."

Joe bob says check it out.



Irony: the same people condemning those exercising their 1st Amendment right to free speech are generally the strongest advocates for the 2nd Amendment right to bear arms.

To blame the dialogue about police brutality for the deaths of these two is to be NO different than those who accuse all police officers of being racist.
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Old 12-23-2014, 01:57 PM   #29
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Irony: the same people condemning those exercising their 1st Amendment right to free speech are generally the strongest advocates for the 2nd Amendment right to bear arms.
They have the freedom to say what they want, which they are clearly exercising. The rest of us also have the freedom to point out the rank hypocrisy and idiocy of what's said. And when what's said is "We want dead cops," the rest of us have the freedom to condemn this as hateful rhetoric that incited violence and to demand accountability.

Irony: the same people supporting the 1st Amendment rights of the protesters are generally the ones wanting to silence any criticism of the protesters.

Calling for dead cops is evil and insane. And I think it's odd that when a white cop kills a black man, black people attack Asians and Hispanics. (See also 1992 LA Riots.) It almost seems racist...
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Old 12-23-2014, 11:30 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by dude1394 View Post
http://www.city-journal.org/2014/eon1222hm.html

In 2013, there were 6,261 black homicide victims in the U.S.—almost all killed by black civilians—resulting in a death risk in inner cities that is ten times higher for blacks than for whites. None of those killings triggered mass protests; they are deemed normal and beneath notice. The police, by contrast, according to published reports, kill roughly 200 blacks a year, most of them armed and dangerous, out of about 40 million police-civilian contacts a year. Blacks are in fact killed by police at a lower rate than their threat to officers would predict. In 2013, blacks made up 42 percent of all cop killers whose race was known, even though blacks are only 13 percent of the nation’s population. The percentage of black suspects killed by the police nationally is 29 percent lower than the percentage of blacks mortally threatening them."
Dubious data, dubious assertions, dubious conclusions.

Quote:
How many police shootings a year? No one knows
By Wesley Lowery September 8

A summer of high-profile police shootings, most notably the Aug. 9 shooting of 18-year-old Michael Brown in Ferguson, Mo., has rekindled a decades-long debate over law enforcement’s use of lethal force.

Police unions and some law-and-order conservatives insist that shootings by officers are rare and even more rarely unjustified. Civil rights groups and some on the left have just as quickly prescribed racial motives to the shootings, declaring that black and brown men are being “executed” by officers.

And, like all previous incarnations of the clash over police force, the debate remains absent access to a crucial, fundamental fact.

Criminal justice experts note that, while the federal government and national research groups keep scads of data and statistics— on topics ranging from how many people were victims of unprovoked shark attacks (53 in 2013) to the number of hogs and pigs living on farms in the U.S. (upwards of 64,000,000 according to 2010 numbers) — there is no reliable national data on how many people are shot by police officers each year.

The government does, however, keep a database of how many officers are killed in the line of duty. In 2012, the most recent year for which FBI data is available, it was 48 – 44 of them killed with firearms.

But how many people in the United States were shot, or killed, by law enforcement officers during that year? No one knows.

Officials with the Justice Department keep no comprehensive database or record of police shootings, instead allowing the nation’s more than 17,000 law enforcement agencies to self-report officer-involved shootings as part of the FBI’s annual data on “justifiable homicides” by law enforcement.

That number – which only includes self-reported information from about 750 law enforcement agencies – hovers around 400 “justifiable homicides” by police officers each year. The DOJ’s Bureau of Justice Statistics also tracks “arrest-related deaths.” But the department stopped releasing those numbers after 2009, because, like the FBI data, they were widely regarded as unreliable.

“What’s there is crappy data,” said David A. Klinger, a former police officer and criminal justice professor at the University of Missouri who studies police use of force.

Several independent trackers, primarily journalists and academics who study criminal justice, insist the accurate number of people shot and killed by police officers each year is consistently upwards of 1,000 each year.


“The FBI’s justifiable homicides and the estimates from (arrest-related deaths) both have significant limitations in terms of coverage and reliability that are primarily due to agency participation and measurement issues,” said Michael Planty, one of the Justice Department’s chief statisticians, in an email.

Even less data exists for officer-involved shootings that do not result in fatalities.

“We do not have information at the national level for police shootings that result in non-fatal injury or no injury to a civilian,” Planty said.

Comprehensive statistics on officer-involved shootings are also not kept by any of the nation’s leading gun violence and police research groups and think tanks.

In fact, prior to the Brown’s shooting, the only person attempting to keep track of the number of police shootings was D. Brian Burghart, the editor and publisher of the 29,000-circulation Reno News & Review, who launched his “Fatal Encounters” project in 2012.

“Don’t you find it spookey? This is information, this is the government’s job,” Burghart said. “One of the government’s major jobs is to protect us. How can it protect us if it doesn’t know what the best practices are? If it doesn’t know if one local department is killing people at a higher rate than others? When it can’t make decisions based on real numbers to come up with best practices? That to me is an abdication of responsibilities.”

Burghart has enlisted a team of volunteers to search news clips as well as file records requests for data, with the goal of collecting a database that will chronicle several years-worth of police shootings.

As of September 1, according to Burghart’s estimates, 83 other people had been killed by police officers in the United States since Michael Brown’s death.

Law enforcement watchdog groups and think tanks say that the lack of comprehensive data on police shootings hampers the ability of departments to develop best practices and cut down on unnecessary shootings.

The way we improve practices is to take information about what’s happening in the field to make those improvements,” said Chuck Wexler, executive director of the Police Executive Research Forum, a nonpartisan think tank in D.C. that produces reports on police tactics. “The more we know about (the number of officer-involved shootings) the better off we’ll be.”

Other than basic statistical analysis, Wexler said, a comprehensive database of police shootings would allow departments to better analyze when officers are drawing and using their guns – potentially leading to policy changes that could save lives.

He noted a shift in policy by the New York Police Department in 1972, in which the department instructed its officers to no longer shoot at moving vehicles.

“When they made that change the number of NYPD shootings plummeted,” he said.

James O. Pasco, the national executive director of the Fraternal Order of Police, believes that an accurate database would require Congress to pass a law requiring police departments to report their shooting data to a federal agency, presumably the FBI.

“Otherwise it’s an unfunded mandate,” Pasco said. “About 80 percent of police departments have fewer than 10 officers. They don’t have huge data collecting operations. They don’t even have a single person in some of these departments who are dedicated to all the statistical work they have to do now.”

Pasco said he doesn’t know what the union’s position would be on a legal requirement to report shootings and the result of shooting investigations.

“It would depend on what the law looked like,” he said. “Clearly, if it’s just a function of collecting the data, I can’t see that we would have a problem with that. Our issues are with due process for officers.”

The most detailed analysis of police shootings to date was conducted by Jim Fisher, a former FBI agent and criminal justice professor who now authors true crime books.

“I was rather surprised to find there are no statistics,” Fisher said. “The answer to me is pretty obvious: the government just doesn’t want us to know how many people are shot by the police every year.”

In 2011, he scoured the Internet several times a day every day, compiling a database of every officer-involved shooting he could find. Ultimately, he tracked 1,146 shootings by police officers, 607 of them fatal shootings.

“I was surprised at how many shootings, a reasonable person would conclude, were unnecessary,” Fisher said.

Earlier this year, the Gawker Media-owned sports Web site Deadspin launched a project to crowd-source a definitive list of police shootings by analyzing local media reports – a system modelled off of Fisher’s 2011 effort.

“Having that data would be extremely helpful, in more ways than one,” said Adolphus M. Pruitt, president of the St. Louis chapter of the NAACP, who has been one of those most vocal about allegations of police brutality in light of Brown’s shooting. “We track everything. There is no reason in the world for us to not be able to know just how many people the police are shooting in any given year.”

In the absence of reliable data, the FBI’s “justifiable homicides” statistics continues to be widely cited in academic studies, media reports, and other examinations of the use of lethal force by law enforcement despite being decried as unreliable by officials inside the Justice Department and other officials outside of the government.

As they do, criminal justice experts note that even compiling accurate numbers of people shot and killed by the police would be just a start.

“Every study that I’m aware of shows that most of the people who are shot by the cops survive and most of the time when cops shoot the bullets don’t hit,” said Klinger, who will soon publish a new study analyzing police shootings in St. Louis.

That study, prepared with several other academics, found that there were 230 instances in the City of St. Louis between 2003 and 2012 when officers fired their weapons. Only 37 of those fired upon were killed.

“If your statistics look just at dead bodies you’d be under-counting it by 85 percent,” Klinger said. “If the cops are shooting, we need to now when they are shooting, not just when they kill somebody with the bullets.”
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Old 12-23-2014, 05:50 PM   #31
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VIDEO: NYPD Officers Assault Unarmed Teen As He Surrenders
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Bedford-Stuyvesant/Crime & Mayhem

NYPD Officer Hits Unarmed Teen in the Face With His Gun
By Murray Weiss on October 7, 2014 7:29am


BROOKLYN — Two NYPD officers are under criminal investigation after punching and using a gun to bash a 16-year-old suspect in the face despite the teen raising his hands to surrender, according to a video obtained by DNAinfo New York.

The surveillance footage obtained exclusively by “On The Inside" shows the two officers catch up to marijuana suspect Kahreem Tribble after a brief chase in Bedford-Stuyvesant.

As the teen stops running, one officer throws a punch at his face. Then, as the suspect raises his hands, the other officer hits him with his gun.

Tribble was arrested for possessing 17 small bags of marijuana and disorderly conduct on Aug. 29. At his arraignment, he pleaded guilty to a violation and was released with cracked teeth and bruises.

The officers from the 79th Precinct are now targets of a criminal investigation conducted by the NYPD’s Internal Affairs Bureau and Brooklyn District Attorney Kenneth Thompson.

“What’s depicted on this video is troubling and warrants a thorough investigation,” Thompson told “On The Inside."

According to court records, law enforcement sources and the video, the encounter started in front of 1311 St. John’s Place at 2:20 a.m. when three anti-crime officers spotted the 6-foot-2 teen peering into the window of parked mini-van.

When the officers got out of their car to approach Tribble, he allegedly tossed away a small black canvas bag and took off running. The officers — one with his gun drawn — gave chase, concerned that the suspect had a weapon, sources said.

Shortly thereafter, Tribble slows down and stops and appears prepared to be arrested. But an officer, identified as Tyrane Isaac, rushes up to him and takes a swing at his head.

The teen ducks the blow and then can be seen retreating — with his hands up — to a storefront gate.

Officer David Afanador — his gun drawn — then catches up and rushes straight to Tribble, hitting him in the his face with his gun, breaking a front tooth and chipping another.

NYPD Officer Punches Brooklyn Teen With His Gun View Full Caption DNAinfo
On the video, Afanador then holsters his weapon and retraces his steps to retrieve the canvas bag, leaving Isaacs to put the cuffs on Tribble.

But before he does, Isaac punches Tribble again and pushes him onto his stomach.

The video ends with Afanador waving the bag in front of Tribble’s face before smacking him with it.

A third officer, identified as Christopher Mastoros, can be seen taking no action to help Tribble.

Police Commissioner William Bratton has seen the video and was angered and embarrassed by it, a source said.

“Clearly, Commissioner Bratton has seen the video and reacted very aggressively in the sense of saying there have to be consequences when anything is done the wrong way," said Mayor Bill de Blasio on Tuesday. He said he hadn't personally seen the footage, but was told what it showed.

“I see these videos as another piece of information that we need to use to improve the relationship between police and community and in many cases to heal the relationship between police and community.”

Sources say officials were particularly concerned about Afanador using his gun on the teen because it could have accidentally fired — injuring or killing him, another officer or an innocent bystander.

Afanador has been suspended without pay. Isaac was placed on modified duty, stripped of his badge and gun.

Both officers have been on the force for nine years and now face possible criminal charges and dismissal, sources say.

Mastoros, also a nine-year veteran, could face a departmental charge for failing to stop his colleagues, sources say. He is not part of the criminal probe.

Each of the officers has two other cases lodged against them by defendants alleging false arrest or being victims of excessive force, according to court records. The cases were not connected.

Mastoros made news two years ago when he was credited with helping save the life of a partner, Kevin Brennan, who survived being shot in the head after chasing a gunman into a Bushwick building.

The video is the latest to surface since the viral video of the tragic “choke hold” death of Eric Garner. Last week, Bratton told a confab of top NYPD officials that he was committed to rooting out bad apples engaged in brutality and corruption.

Sources say Internal Affairs was tipped off to the Tribble video a few days after his arrest. Roughly two weeks ago, IAB supervisors brought their findings to Thompson to determine if criminal charges are warranted.

Patrick Lynch, the police union president, said the tape does not tell the entire tale.

“As usual, the video fails to capture the offense that resulted in police action or the lengthy foot pursuit that culminated in the arrest," he said.

"Situations like this one happen in real time under great stress. It’s very easy to be judgmental in the comfort of an office while sitting in front of a video screen."

Tribble’s lawyer, Amy Rameau, told "On The Inside" that her client was heading home from a friend's apartment when the officers chased him.

"My client was minding his own business and they decided to chase him for no reason," she said. "Their account is concocted to justify what they did, to cover their asses, to legitimize their criminal conduct."

She said in addition to suffering broken teeth, Tribble was bleeding from his mouth and "begging for medical attention," but was only sent to Interfaith Hospital when other officers at Central Booking saw him.

She said she plans to file a federal civil rights lawsuit against the NYPD and the officers.

The clash has left the teen "petrified" of police and "traumatized and fearful that they will come after him again."
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Old 12-23-2014, 05:58 PM   #32
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Video: NYPD Officer Assaults Handcuffed Teen WHO WAS INNOCENT AND UNINVOLVED

Ten police officers stand by as a plainclothers officer assaults a teenager. Not one intervenes.

SEE IT: NYPD plainclothes officer delivers body blows to youth as he's being cuffed, gets suspended pending investigation
The video, taken on Monday, shows Officer John McDevitt — an anti-crime cop from the 7th Precinct — running up and punching an assault suspect after the teen was handcuffed against a car and surrounded by three uniformed officers on East Broadway near Clinton St., officials said. (WARNING: CONTAINS GRAPHIC LANGUAGE)
BY ROCCO PARASCANDOLA , BARRY PADDOCK , THOMAS TRACY POLICE BUREAU CHIEF Published: Friday, December 19, 2014, 1:41 AM Updated: Saturday, December 20, 2014, 2:22 AM A A A

The plainclothes NYPD cop caught on video repeatedly punching a teenage suspect on the lower East Side has been stripped of his gun and shield as Internal Affairs investigates the circumstances of the arrest, police said Friday.

“That officer has been suspended pending the investigation going forward,” Police Commissioner Bill Bratton said.

Police said two suspects, including the one struck, were arrested for assaulting another person with a cane.Police said two suspects, including the one struck, were arrested for assaulting another person with a cane.PreviousNextA 12-year-old African American child is seen viciously punched by a plainsclothed police officer after he was pinned to the side of a police car. A 12-year-old African American child is seen viciously punched by a plainsclothed police officer after he was pinned to the side of a police car. A 12-year-old African American child is seen viciously punched by a plainsclothed police officer after he was pinned to the side of a police car. A 12-year-old African American child is seen viciously punched by a plainsclothed police officer after he was pinned to the side of a police car. Enlarge

The video, taken on Monday, shows Police Officer John McDevitt — an anti-crime cop from the 7th Precinct — running up and punching an assault suspect after the teen was handcuffed against a car and surrounded by three uniformed officers on East Broadway near Clinton St., officials said.

Police said they responded to numerous 911 calls for an assault in progress.

Three teens were arrested on allegations of bashing a 20-year-old man with a cane after punching and kicking him. Their charges were dropped before the video was released.



rparascandola@nydailynews.com
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Old 12-23-2014, 06:06 PM   #33
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NYPD Breaks Into House and Murders/"Executes"/"Assassinates" Unarmed Teen

Quote:
Ramarley Graham, Unarmed Teen, Unlawfully Shot By New York Police, Lawyer Says
Posted: 02/09/2012 7:51 pm EST Updated: 12/04/2012 4:48 pm EST

The killing of Ramarley Graham, a Bronx teenager, by police has sparked large street protests.

NEW YORK -- A week after police shot to death an unarmed 18-year-old in his grandmother's Bronx apartment, questions continue to swirl around the aggressive police tactics that led to the fatal confrontation.

Ramarley Graham died last Thursday after Richard Haste, 30, a New York police officer, entered his grandmother's apartment and shot Graham in the chest while he attempted to flush a bag of marijuana down the toilet. Graham was unarmed and police did not have a warrant to enter the home.

Graham's death has sparked street protests in Wakefield, a low-income neighborhood with a large African-American and Caribbean immigrant population. "They had no business kicking down the door. They went too far," said Tyrone Harris, 27. "They need to go to jail just like any other citizen."

Jeffrey Emdin, an attorney representing Graham's mother, called the police tactics unlawful. "They illegally entered the home," Emdin said. "They had no right to be inside. They had no right to use force."

Protesters linked the shooting to the NYPD's aggressive street policing program, called "stop-and-frisk," which predominantly targets low-income minority neighborhoods. In 2011, the program stopped and searched more than 500,000 New Yorkers, 85 percent of them black or Latino. The searches contributed to a record number of misdemeanor marijuana arrests last year.

"The public has every reason to question whether this shooting was the product of the NYPD marijuana arrest crusade, or whether it's the product of their hyper-aggressive stop-and-frisk program," said Donna Lieberman, executive director of the New York Civil Liberties Union.

"This isn't just the collateral damage of policing in a big city," Lieberman said. "The NYPD has adopted certain policies that are off the charts."

The NYPD did not respond to several requests for comment. But at a press conference last week, police Commissioner Ray Kelly expressed concern over Graham's death. "At this juncture we see an unarmed person being shot," he said. "That always concerns us."

The Bronx district attorney's office is investigating, with plans to present evidence to a grand jury for potential criminal charges. In the meantime, the shooting officer and his supervisor have been relieved of their weapons and placed on restricted duty, police said.

Whether charges are brought against officers will hinge on details investigators glean about the events surrounding the shooting.

Police officials said that members of a street narcotics squad broadcast over their radios that they saw the butt of a gun in Graham's waistband as he left a convenience store, under observation for suspected drug activity. The young man then fled up the block to his home after two plainclothes officers in an unmarked squad car told him to stop, officials said.

Footage from private surveillance cameras shows Graham walking into his grandmother's apartment building, a three-story home on a residential street.

Police officers, guns drawn, quickly follow and attempt to kick down the front door after finding it locked. In the back of the building, other officers swarm in through a rear apartment. The cameras do not capture what transpired inside, but officers quickly entered Graham's grandmother's apartment on the second floor. They did not have a search warrant.

The large number of officers at the house indicated that Graham wasn't likely to escape and that officers could have waited to obtain a warrant before storming the apartment, said Emdin, the Graham family's attorney.

"They can't take matters into their own hands like this and violate the Constitution," Emdin said.

John Wesley Hall, a criminal defense attorney in Little Rock, Ark. who has argued cases involving police searches before the Supreme Court, said a police suspicion that Graham might be carrying an illegal handgun was insufficient justification for entering the home without a warrant.

"If they thought he had a gun, they should have stopped him on the street and not waited for him to go inside," Hall said. "Any reasonable officer would have known that they needed a warrant to get into the house."

The most crucial question facing Haste, the shooting officer, will surround his actions inside the apartment.

Haste's partner told investigators that Haste identified himself as a police officer, told Graham to "show his hands" and then yelled "gun, gun" before firing, Kelly said.

But Graham's grandmother maintains that officers did not announce their presence entering her home and that Haste did not say anything to Graham before shooting him, Emdin said.

"I asked her if they said 'police' when they entered," Emdin said. "She says 100 percent no."

Emdin also questioned an initial police account describing the shooting. In statements to reporters the day of Graham's death, chief NYPD spokesman Paul J. Browne said that Graham "struggled" with Haste in the bathroom before the fatal shot.

But at a press conference the next day, Kelly, the NYPD commissioner, answered 'no' when asked whether investigators still believed a struggle had taken place.

"Who told them that? Why did they retract that one day later?" Emdin said.

The NYPD did not respond to emailed questions regarding department policies on warrantless searches, or inconsistencies in the police account of the shooting.

The New York Daily News, citing an anonymous police source, reported Thursday that Commissioner Kelly recently ordered a "high level review" of the Street Narcotics Enforcement Unit, responsible for the deadly raid.
The officer who shot Graham hadn't been trained in street-level narcotics work or plainclothes work, the paper said.
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Old 12-21-2014, 02:59 PM   #34
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Honest question: can I feel life-wrenching horror at yesterday's shooting AND think that we have a police brutality problem?
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Old 12-21-2014, 03:23 PM   #35
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Honest question: can I feel life-wrenching horror at yesterday's shooting AND think that we have a police brutality problem?
Yes you can. I do.
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Old 12-21-2014, 03:39 PM   #36
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Honest question: can I feel life-wrenching horror at yesterday's shooting AND think that we have a police brutality problem?
Sure. Can i feel bad about brown being killed and still say it was his own actions that caused it? And that an innocent policeman shouldnt have his life threatened and reputation ruined by politicians and media who want to inflame racial anomosities for their own political gain?
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Old 12-23-2014, 05:17 PM   #37
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Honest question: can I feel life-wrenching horror at yesterday's shooting AND think that we have a police brutality problem?
One, there is no such thing as "life-wrenching horror." Two, I'd recommend you think for yourself.
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Old 12-23-2014, 06:38 PM   #38
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One, there is no such thing as "life-wrenching horror." Two, I'd recommend you think for yourself.
The irony here is AMAZING. You tell me how I can and cannot think and feel and then tell me to think for myself in the most condescending of ways. Genius.
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Old 12-24-2014, 04:56 PM   #39
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The irony here is AMAZING. You tell me how I can and cannot think and feel and then tell me to think for myself in the most condescending of ways. Genius.
I didn't tell you how to think. I just pointed out that you weren't thinking very clearly when you wrote what you wrote. Well...if that means I was telling you to think clearly, then I guess so. But I would hope that you would want that for yourself without someone having to encourage you.
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Old 12-21-2014, 03:27 PM   #40
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http://m.nydailynews.com/new-york/ny...icle-1.2052611

Yankees paying for the education of Officer Ramos' children. Classy.
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