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Old 05-18-2017, 03:11 PM   #1161
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Whether we are lottery or fringe playoff team it's all the same to me. Our focus has to be on finding a #1 to replace what Dirk has been for 2 decades. Barnes has the potential to be a fine Robin. Now we must find our Batman.
And there are really only three ways to do that.
1. Draft one
2. Sign one in FA
3. Trade for one.

Based on our current situation we will not be a crappy team next season so I don't see us picking high enough. I think people tend to forget just how good we were after Curry went to the starting lineup. But we are not good enough to attract superstar caliber FAs. And no team in their right mind will trade a superstar in their prime....especially to a team with nothing to offer in return.

Our best bet imo is to try to develop a nice young core over the next few years that would attract a decent FA in 2019 or 2020. And then hope like hell we hit on a few of these younger players.
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Old 05-18-2017, 03:32 PM   #1162
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And there are really only three ways to do that.
1. Draft one
2. Sign one in FA
3. Trade for one.

Based on our current situation we will not be a crappy team next season so I don't see us picking high enough. I think people tend to forget just how good we were after Curry went to the starting lineup. But we are not good enough to attract superstar caliber FAs. And no team in their right mind will trade a superstar in their prime....especially to a team with nothing to offer in return.

Our best bet imo is to try to develop a nice young core over the next few years that would attract a decent FA in 2019 or 2020. And then hope like hell we hit on a few of these younger players.
I agree except this is a special draft. Swing for someone with a rare ceiling. Even if it means trading up. Batman + Robin would be more than enough to attract whatever you need in FA.

EDIT: This is a draft where you have 10 players who would be a top 3 pick in any other draft. Some with higher floors (Tatum, Fultz, Justin Jackson, Zach Collins) and others with extremely high ceilings (DSJ, Monk, Fox, Isaac, J Jackson, Ball, Frank, and Fultz again). We need to be all over the guys with the ceilings. I would rather swing on an Isaac and miss than swim in mediocrity for 7 years by picking a Collins. You want a great team? Seize the once in a decade draft opportunity. Even if it means trading a few "assets" to move up a few slots. You will not win by betting on FA with no superstar to get them there.

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Old 05-18-2017, 04:12 PM   #1163
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There is nothing I wouldn't give up for the #1 pick in this years draft. I would say our #1 this year, #1 next year, and whatever player the Celtics want. Fultz has the highest floor and ceiling of anyone in this draft. And they have no need for him really. They could get an instant contributor at 9 and have the high potential for a lottery next year from us.
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Old 05-18-2017, 04:56 PM   #1164
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There is nothing I wouldn't give up for the #1 pick in this years draft. I would say our #1 this year, #1 next year, and whatever player the Celtics want. Fultz has the highest floor and ceiling of anyone in this draft. And they have no need for him really. They could get an instant contributor at 9 and have the high potential for a lottery next year from us.
Understand what you are asking for but put yourself in their shoes....if you are trading the #1 pick you better be getting a proven young star in return, not a bunch of future draft picks.
There is absolutely nothing this team has that would entice the Celts to give up that pick.
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Old 05-18-2017, 09:27 PM   #1165
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Understand what you are asking for but put yourself in their shoes....if you are trading the #1 pick you better be getting a proven young star in return, not a bunch of future draft picks.
There is absolutely nothing this team has that would entice the Celts to give up that pick.
I hear you. I just don't see much drop off for them from 1 to 9 from a talent perspective. They don't need a 1. So they basically get a top 4 pick outside of the first 5 PGs coming off the board.

Honestly, I am just rooting for us to be aggressive in this draft. Move up to get Monk or DSJ. Give up whatever it takes. Both would be perennial All Stars for us. If we walk away with one of these cats with a high floor but little chance of being a #1 I am going to be disappointed.
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Old 05-18-2017, 11:19 PM   #1166
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I hear you. I just don't see much drop off for them from 1 to 9 from a talent perspective. They don't need a 1. So they basically get a top 4 pick outside of the first 5 PGs coming off the board.

Honestly, I am just rooting for us to be aggressive in this draft. Move up to get Monk or DSJ. Give up whatever it takes. Both would be perennial All Stars for us. If we walk away with one of these cats with a high floor but little chance of being a #1 I am going to be disappointed.
I really do understand what you are saying and why I definitely don't want Markkanen because there is no sign of any chance of star potential imo. Monk, Smith, and maybe a few others might have a chance to be stars in this league as well as probably a few that are projected to go later in the draft. Mavs should offer Wes for Portland's #20 and #26 picks and take on Turner's brutal contract. Those are the types of moves the Mavs should make to take a chance at hitting on something late in the 1st round.

And Boston should really consider keeping that pick and moving IT and virtually start the rebuild process over. They'll get an obvious star at 19 to go with Brown and have some nice trade pieces just entering their prime. There is no way they are competing with Cavs anytime soon so they might as well reload and build around Fultz and Brown.

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Old 05-19-2017, 07:39 AM   #1167
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See this is what I mean. Why would you come to that conclusion when he has only played a half season as a rookie without any Mavs training camp?
There is always a chance. There was a chance the Mavs could win the #1 pick. There is a chance I could win the lottery and live on a beach the rest of my life. If Yogi magically came back next year and played at an all-star level, I would be ecstatic.

But .... and this is a big But ... how many players get anywhere close to that level going undrafted, being waived from another NBA team, and honestly this is my biggest knock on him ... he is listed as 6 foot which is being generous. Rudy is one of my favorite movies (and stories) of all time, but there is a reason why the guy only got two plays at the end of the game when it was already decided. All the coaching and training in the league can't help a guy put on an extra 6 inches of height. This is a league of size, athleticism, and skill. Yogi can really improve skill this off season and maybe some athleticism, but his size has maxed out and he is who he is now.

And why is coming off the bench to spark the team such a bad thing? Ginobili has been doing it for years now. That is a vastly under-rated role on teams. I much preferred Jason Terry coming off the bench in 2011 vs starting. Deep playoff teams have to have a guy that can come in and instantly pick a team up or keep them flowing.

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Old 05-19-2017, 10:45 AM   #1168
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There is always a chance. There was a chance the Mavs could win the #1 pick. There is a chance I could win the lottery and live on a beach the rest of my life. If Yogi magically came back next year and played at an all-star level, I would be ecstatic.

But .... and this is a big But ... how many players get anywhere close to that level going undrafted, being waived from another NBA team, and honestly this is my biggest knock on him ... he is listed as 6 foot which is being generous. Rudy is one of my favorite movies (and stories) of all time, but there is a reason why the guy only got two plays at the end of the game when it was already decided. All the coaching and training in the league can't help a guy put on an extra 6 inches of height. This is a league of size, athleticism, and skill. Yogi can really improve skill this off season and maybe some athleticism, but his size has maxed out and he is who he is now.

And why is coming off the bench to spark the team such a bad thing? Ginobili has been doing it for years now. That is a vastly under-rated role on teams. I much preferred Jason Terry coming off the bench in 2011 vs starting. Deep playoff teams have to have a guy that can come in and instantly pick a team up or keep them flowing.
You said it best. Yogi is extremely close to his ceiling, I dont understand why people are clamoring for him as starter when at best, and this is a compliment, he can spark from the bench. What team has ever gone into 2nd or 3rd round of playoffs with a starting PG under 6ft tall sans AI anyway? I like Yogi for what he is. I think he improves his bench role in the offseason, finding a knack for open guys, pnr, getting into the lane and lobbing etc. But he is not an 82 game starter.
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Old 05-19-2017, 10:50 AM   #1169
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Excellent analysis! You win.



As far as pure potential, I really wonder what the ceiling is for Frank then. If they think he is the next Giannis, then get him and next year chances are that we get another high draft pick to go with him. Then in 2-3 years we should be set, right?
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Old 05-19-2017, 11:23 AM   #1170
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You said it best. Yogi is extremely close to his ceiling, I dont understand why people are clamoring for him as starter when at best, and this is a compliment, he can spark from the bench. What team has ever gone into 2nd or 3rd round of playoffs with a starting PG under 6ft tall sans AI anyway? I like Yogi for what he is. I think he improves his bench role in the offseason, finding a knack for open guys, pnr, getting into the lane and lobbing etc. But he is not an 82 game starter.
This years Celtics. IT isn't 6ft, but I agree with everything you said. Yogi is best utilized off the bench.
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Old 05-19-2017, 01:10 PM   #1171
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You said it best. Yogi is extremely close to his ceiling, I dont understand why people are clamoring for him as starter when at best, and this is a compliment, he can spark from the bench. What team has ever gone into 2nd or 3rd round of playoffs with a starting PG under 6ft tall sans AI anyway? I like Yogi for what he is. I think he improves his bench role in the offseason, finding a knack for open guys, pnr, getting into the lane and lobbing etc. But he is not an 82 game starter.
The biggest issue with small sized PGs is on the defensive end. Yogi's defense is outstanding and if you watch close enough you can see how much he frustrates ball handlers trying to get to their spots.

Nobody is clamoring for him to be the starter and my point is obviously being missed. If we draft someone like Ntilikina and Yogi out plays him to be the starter then you really have to wonder if the pick could have better used elsewhere. I don't think Yogi has had enough of an opportunity to fully show what he has but what opportunity he has had he has made the best of.

I'm just saying I'm not convinced he is too short to become a star player and that other aspects (BBIQ, quickness, shooting, defense, heart, competitiveness, coachability, etc.....) of his game could make up for his one shortcoming NPI.
You see a ceiling that I'm not seeing.
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:15 PM   #1172
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My thing with Yogi was he couldn't make some very easy passes to Barnes or Dirk after a screen. He can get better at that obviously but I'm not talking about setting up something overly complicated... A screen and pop/roll is about as basic as a play can get and he routinely would not make that pass which more times than not resulted in him throwing it to seth or Wes and then Wes prolly did something silly like try and create his own shot. Honestly it looked at times to me that his height kept him from being able to make those passes.

I think he's a great defender. My issue with him on defense would be in the playoffs though. In a league where switching on defense has become a necessity teams will do exactly what they are doing to IT. They will switch someone on him and get a matchup advantage on nearly every possession. And if he was remotely the offensive player IT was he'd likely get worn down from that especially since he goes all out on defense.

Honestly with he and Curry being up for deals soon, a year- Curry(UFA) and 2 years- Yogi(RFA), I'm coming more around to the idea that if they improve I'd trade them. Curry more so than Yogi because he's a UFA and only 1 year left. Barring a massive jump I just don't think we can pay what he's going to get on the open market. And after Parsons and Wes and a lesser extent Powell... I'm so over-overpaying players when we aren't even a playoff team or if we are it's as 8th seed fodder for a real contender.
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Old 05-19-2017, 04:10 PM   #1173
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This years Celtics. IT isn't 6ft, but I agree with everything you said. Yogi is best utilized off the bench.
True, but his great run wont last long. Very few undersized guys can make it for an extended period as a #1 options. Just against the odds when it comes to size. Ftr I love IT and enjoyed watching him this season.
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Old 05-19-2017, 04:15 PM   #1174
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My thing with Yogi was he couldn't make some very easy passes to Barnes or Dirk after a screen. He can get better at that obviously but I'm not talking about setting up something overly complicated... A screen and pop/roll is about as basic as a play can get and he routinely would not make that pass which more times than not resulted in him throwing it to seth or Wes and then Wes prolly did something silly like try and create his own shot. Honestly it looked at times to me that his height kept him from being able to make those passes.

.
This was something I seen too when it came to getting the ball to guys down low once he drove into the lane. He was forced to dribble back around to the top of the key or pass to the wing
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Old 05-19-2017, 04:39 PM   #1175
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There is nothing I wouldn't give up for the #1 pick in this years draft. I would say our #1 this year, #1 next year, and whatever player the Celtics want. Fultz has the highest floor and ceiling of anyone in this draft. And they have no need for him really. They could get an instant contributor at 9 and have the high potential for a lottery next year from us.
How about Noel + Mavs #9 pick for Celts #1 pick?
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Old 05-19-2017, 05:00 PM   #1176
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How about Noel + Mavs #9 pick for Celts #1 pick?
Yes absolutely. I like Noel, he has a decent ceiling and potential but comes with some injury risk. Right now it has to be 100% about finding a #1 for the next 15 years. We can't even hope to price together a championship team without a prime Dirk. Time to find the guy.
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Old 05-19-2017, 05:17 PM   #1177
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Well just have to see when it comes to yogi but smart players adjust well and I'm not giving up on him just yet. Not sure if he 'll get a good opportunity depending on the moves in the off season.
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Old 05-19-2017, 09:07 PM   #1178
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So the Celtics pretty much HAVE to take Fultz now, right?
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Old 05-19-2017, 10:47 PM   #1179
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IT is a great story, but his size will always be against him at the end of the day.
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Old 05-19-2017, 10:55 PM   #1180
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So the Celtics pretty much HAVE to take Fultz now, right?
Fultz or trade the pick for a proven star is the way I see it.
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Old 05-19-2017, 11:30 PM   #1181
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This years Celtics. IT isn't 6ft, but I agree with everything you said. Yogi is best utilized off the bench.
He got to the 3rd round in a weak eastern conference to be absolutely destroyed by Cleveland ... as in playoff record 41 point halftime lead. AI is the only player that I've actually seen play live that you could build around while being that height. IT is nowhere near AI. And Yogi is nowhere near IT.

Yogi looked good because he was new and 3rd to 5th option on a lottery team. If Mavs become a playoff team and he's the starter, then opposing teams will plan for him and destroy him on the defensive end. It's much easier to look good on bad teams. Have him come off the bench and be 6th/7th man would be a role he could do well in.
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Old 05-20-2017, 12:12 AM   #1182
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IT is a great story, but his size will always be against him at the end of the day.
Guys without size in a nutshell. I think IT is a great guy, and great player, but I take Fultz with the #1 pick, and let IT go somewhere else when his contract is up and spend that money elsewhere. Most (not all) players lacking size have a shorter shelf life in the NBA.
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Old 05-20-2017, 04:38 AM   #1183
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Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart View Post
IT is a great story, but his size will always be against him at the end of the day.
Mavs should have jumped on Thomas during the multiple opportunities they had to acquire him on the cheap. His talent was obvious. He routinely took over games when he was with Sacramento.
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Old 05-20-2017, 09:41 AM   #1184
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So the Celtics pretty much HAVE to take Fultz now, right?
I think Celtics pretty much have to trade the pick now. I'm thinking in a package for Jimmy Butler.
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Old 05-20-2017, 10:01 AM   #1185
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Guys without size in a nutshell. I think IT is a great guy, and great player, but I take Fultz with the #1 pick, and let IT go somewhere else when his contract is up and spend that money elsewhere. Most (not all) players lacking size have a shorter shelf life in the NBA.
I disagree only because I believe there is a very real possibility someone in the top 5 will offer a nice trade package for that #1 pick. Gives them the best of both worlds. Nab Jackson or Tatum and continue to acquire picks. Win/Win.
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Old 05-20-2017, 10:38 AM   #1186
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Old 05-20-2017, 01:35 PM   #1187
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My top-ten (update):

1) Markelle Fultz (Damian Lillard/ James Harden)
2) Josh Jackson (Andrew Wiggins/ Demar Derozan)
3) De'Aaron Fox (John Wall/ Elfrid Payton)
4) Jayson Tatum (Harrison Barnes/ Otto Porter)
5) Jonathan Isaac (Brandon Ingram/ Otto Porter)
6) Lonzo Ball (Shaun Livingston/ Michael Carter Williams)
7) Zach Collins (Joel Embiid/ ???)
8) Malik Monk (Monta Ellis/ Jamal Crawford)
9) Dennis Smith Jr. (Eric Bledsoe/ Reggie Jackson)
10) Lauri Markkanen (Ryan Anderson/ Channing Frye)


Outside looking in: Frank Ntilikina; Donovan Mitchell; Terrance Ferguson
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Old 05-21-2017, 05:45 PM   #1188
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Zach Collins is starting to grow on me. I would definitely take him over Markkanen as I think he has a bigger upside. I like that he plays tough and has high effort. I also think if he stayed another year at college that he would almost definitely blossom and be a top 5 pick next season.
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Old 05-21-2017, 05:54 PM   #1189
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Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart View Post
Zach Collins is starting to grow on me. I would definitely take him over Markkanen as I think he has a bigger upside. I like that he plays tough and has high effort. I also think if he stayed another year at college that he would almost definitely blossom and be a top 5 pick next season.
Can you elaborate on the "bigger upside"? Where is his ceiling? When I watch him play, I think high floor with extremely low ceiling. Little to no chance of being a #1. Undoubtedly, Markannen carries more risk. Just curious on what your thoughts were that were making you come around to Collins
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Old 05-21-2017, 06:28 PM   #1190
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Watching the Cavs and Warriors superteams (and Curry/Durant re-signing), we have easily the time to take Frank and let him develop three years. No reason to rush trying to get back into the playoffs.

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Old 05-21-2017, 06:55 PM   #1191
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Can you elaborate on the "bigger upside"? Where is his ceiling? When I watch him play, I think high floor with extremely low ceiling. Little to no chance of being a #1. Undoubtedly, Markannen carries more risk. Just curious on what your thoughts were that were making you come around to Collins
Collins screams Greg Monroe to me. He can block shots but otherwise his foot speed is below average and his strength and weight are all below average. His offense is nice but he will be abused on defense and on the boards. Barring an injury he should be in the NBa in 5 years, but not worthy of our first lottery pick since Harris 13 years ago. Even if it means drafting a development guy with a high chance of being a bust, I'd prefer it to Collins.
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Old 05-22-2017, 08:18 AM   #1192
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Watching the Cavs and Warriors superteams (and Curry/Durant re-signing), we have easily the time to take Frank and let him develop three years. No reason to rush trying to get back into the playoffs.
Yep. There is plenty of time to build right now. They really need to time the resurgence correctly. No need to rush, just need to get the closest thing to a guarantee in the next few years.
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Old 05-22-2017, 12:38 PM   #1193
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Can you elaborate on the "bigger upside"? Where is his ceiling? When I watch him play, I think high floor with extremely low ceiling. Little to no chance of being a #1. Undoubtedly, Markannen carries more risk. Just curious on what your thoughts were that were making you come around to Collins
He runs the floor well, is a two way player, can hit outside shots, can get to the line, is tough, not afraid of contact, great shot blocker...

I mean, 10/6/2 is pretty impressive for only playing 17 mpg off the bench. If you check his game log, you see that he contributed in nearly every game.

The problem with discussing "star" potential is that you really don't have any idea with guys like Frank, Isaac, and Collins. They all need a few years of development no matter what.

I'd still go with Frank, but you know the FO will take a hard look at Collins since he is one of a few guys considered for the 9th pick.
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Old 05-22-2017, 07:14 PM   #1194
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He runs the floor well, is a two way player, can hit outside shots, can get to the line, is tough, not afraid of contact, great shot blocker...

I mean, 10/6/2 is pretty impressive for only playing 17 mpg off the bench. If you check his game log, you see that he contributed in nearly every game.

The problem with discussing "star" potential is that you really don't have any idea with guys like Frank, Isaac, and Collins. They all need a few years of development no matter what.

I'd still go with Frank, but you know the FO will take a hard look at Collins since he is one of a few guys considered for the 9th pick.
I've watched the least amount of film of Collins. Is he a Kevin Love starter kit?
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Old 05-22-2017, 08:29 PM   #1195
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I've watched the least amount of film of Collins. Is he a Kevin Love starter kit?
More like Channing Frye.
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Old 05-22-2017, 08:38 PM   #1196
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More like Channing Frye.
I think he has much better rebounding potential than Frye and is a more physical player. He also seems to know how to score around the rim. Frye was always slated as a perimeter guy.
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Old 05-22-2017, 08:48 PM   #1197
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Filming a teammate talking about cheating on his gf as a prank and having it get out isn't exactly something I'm thrilled about if he's in a locker room with me. Lakers teammates alienated him after the incident. I don't condone what Young did but why film it? I just question if he would be accepted in a locker room or trusted.
That sounds more like an opportunity than a concern, to me. Yes, it was stupid and shouldn't have happened...but it's old news, and if that is holding his value down Mavs should jump all over it.
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Old 05-22-2017, 09:12 PM   #1198
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More like Channing Frye.
If that's the case I am all in for NOT drafting him. I really can't see a scenario where I would be excited with walking away with him given the talent in this draft. I do agree that in most drafts he probably is a top 5 pick. But many fail to realize just how stacked this draft is.
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Old 05-22-2017, 09:58 PM   #1199
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If that's the case I am all in for NOT drafting him. I really can't see a scenario where I would be excited with walking away with him given the talent in this draft. I do agree that in most drafts he probably is a top 5 pick. But many fail to realize just how stacked this draft is.
But I'm not sure you're understanding the realities of drafting at 9. The players the Mavs will be picking from consist of Frank, Lauri, Collins, and maybe Monk or Isaac. Outside of a total curveball, trading down, or other teams making bonkers picks those are the players to pick from. All of them are talented, but none have definite star written on any of them at this point.

Based on what you're saying, I don't know how you can really go wrong with most of them outside of Markannen who most of us hope isn't the pick.
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Old 05-23-2017, 07:26 AM   #1200
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That sounds more like an opportunity than a concern, to me. Yes, it was stupid and shouldn't have happened...but it's old news, and if that is holding his value down Mavs should jump all over it.
After Odom and Rondo wasting our assets I really don't want to lose what little we have on a pg who has some leadership issues or at the very least has questions about his leadership and maturity.
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