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View Poll Results: Is the KP Postup game good enough?
yes 0 0%
no 5 45.45%
could be better 5 45.45%
simply no factor 1 9.09%
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Old 12-02-2019, 12:11 PM   #1
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Default Porzingis Strength

Hey guys,

i wonder every game...

it seems so easy for the opponents to post up KP...

and on the other hand...KP is not able to get any near the basket in the post...he is listed with 240 lbs. that should be enough to post up.

his shot is so wasted without a decent postup. a lesson dirk has learned at this point in his career...he could be so much more useful...
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Old 12-02-2019, 12:13 PM   #2
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Posting is not going to be his best game. He's a defensive guy who can shoot jumpers and drive.
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Old 12-02-2019, 12:27 PM   #3
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His post-up game is absolutely atrocious. Really, really bad. It's kind of a marvel, really. I'm not sure why, but he just seems like he has no idea what to do down there. He looks really tentative and hesitant when he catches the ball in the post. His best bet is to just turn and shoot quickly with no hesitation. When he tries to dribble or make any sort of move, it just goes poorly.
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Old 12-02-2019, 12:33 PM   #4
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I don't think his mid post game is that bad. He just seems to rush a turnaround jumper it instead of taking his time to read the defense.
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Old 12-02-2019, 12:49 PM   #5
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I have the perfect person to be an in-season and then off-season coach for KP and his post-up game...

rhymes with Dirk.
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Old 12-02-2019, 12:55 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson View Post
His post-up game is absolutely atrocious. Really, really bad. It's kind of a marvel, really. I'm not sure why, but he just seems like he has no idea what to do down there. He looks really tentative and hesitant when he catches the ball in the post. His best bet is to just turn and shoot quickly with no hesitation. When he tries to dribble or make any sort of move, it just goes poorly.
Atrocious now, yes; but he had a couple of decent shots from post-ups yesterday with Kuzma guarding him.

He seems to be both tentative AND rushing his shots; not sure that encouraging him to shoot quicker is the answer, at least from the post. He's got a little too much froth on the Latvian Dream Shake already.

I think that he needs to slow down, keep the ball up high, avoid putting the ball on the floor more than once exposing it to defenders, not try to get all the way to the basket for a monster slam, and maybe develop a little bit more of a pull-up, tear-drop action, with higher arc on his shot. (Think: Jokic, although yes, he weighs 280.) His shots right now in the paint look a little straightline-to-flat, which end up ricocheting, rather than any chance at softly landing in the basket.

Probably too much to hope for at this point, but.....a sky hook? How does a player 7.3 with KP's mobility NOT have a jump hook at least? Yes, I'd love to see Dirk work with him on some low-post moves; if not Dirk, Pau Gasol who was recently waived by Portland.

I also think that his difficulties are in part an issue of lower body strength, and not being able to hold his position, which is a problem that is not likely to be completely solved in-season. Anyone who defends him successfully talks about the necessity of getting underneath to get him off balance. Probably also a matter of upper-body strength, given how easily and frequently he gets stripped.

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Old 12-02-2019, 01:06 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by saclare View Post
I have the perfect person to be an in-season and then off-season coach for KP and his post-up game...

rhymes with Dirk.
And instead of spending his summer in latvia with a hot Olga he could spend some time with another person, rhymes also with Olga.
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Old 12-02-2019, 01:18 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson View Post
His post-up game is absolutely atrocious. Really, really bad. It's kind of a marvel, really. I'm not sure why, but he just seems like he has no idea what to do down there. He looks really tentative and hesitant when he catches the ball in the post. His best bet is to just turn and shoot quickly with no hesitation. When he tries to dribble or make any sort of move, it just goes poorly.
Some of that is that he's coming back from injury, but more than anything his post is completely undeveloped. NY basically made him do it, but didn't give him any sort of instruction on how to do it.

I think post should be the last on the list-- he needs to get more comfortable hitting jumpers and working within an offense, but I would like the long-term plan to work with him on some post moves just to mix it up a bit-- a la Dirk.
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Old 12-02-2019, 01:47 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Jack.Kerr View Post
Atrocious now, yes; but he had a couple of decent shots from post-ups yesterday with Kuzma guarding him.

He seems to be both tentative AND rushing his shots; not sure that encouraging him to shoot quicker is the answer, at least from the post. He's got a little too much froth on the Latvian Dream Shake already.

I think that he needs to slow down, keep the ball up high, avoid putting the ball on the floor more than once exposing it to defenders, not try to get all the way to the basket for a monster slam, and maybe develop a little bit more of a pull-up, tear-drop action, with higher arc on his shot. (Think: Jokic, although yes, he weighs 280.) His shots right now in the paint look a little straightline-to-flat, which end up ricocheting, rather than any chance at softly landing in the basket.

Probably too much to hope for at this point, but.....a sky hook? How does a player 7.3 with KP's mobility NOT have a jump hook at least? Yes, I'd love to see Dirk work with him on some low-post moves; if not Dirk, Pau Gasol who was recently waived by Portland.

I also think that his difficulties are in part an issue of lower body strength, and not being able to hold his position, which is a problem that is not likely to be completely solved in-season. Anyone who defends him successfully talks about the necessity of getting underneath to get him off balance. Probably also a matter of upper-body strength, given how easily and frequently he gets stripped.
all of this...
needs to develop his overall strength, especially lower body
footwork
go to move - drop step, hook shot, one legged fade, anything rather than just turn and shoot
even basics like keeping the ball high so as to not get stripped.

truly a work in progress - may take years. this will in some part determine his career arc - how willing he is to put in the work. But the potential is there in gobs.

KP needs a holger to bust his butt.
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Old 12-02-2019, 03:56 PM   #10
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Here is a video of him from the 17/18 season, before the injury. Nothing fantastic there, yet his moves still look better than now. There are some hook shots, but mostly - turn&shoot, catch&shoot, drives to the basket, dunks.
Porzingis in 17/18 season, random mix of his play

He did play a lot with the ball in Spain, and even on the Knicks, so that's one of the things making him uncomfortable.

How he's used will determine if Mavs can get a title in the next few years. 30M/season are invested in KP. Right now he is having his worst shooting season.

And I know he is really hungry, motivated and hardworking. And Carlisle is an above-average coach... so I hope for the best. On Knicks, KP was coached by Derek Fisher, Kurt Rambis, Jeff Hornacek, David Fizdale. None of these four are really known for dealing with modern 7ft bigs.

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Old 12-02-2019, 04:49 PM   #11
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In the last year that Porzingis played

80% of his attempts were jumpers (81% of his shots this year are)
46.7% was his eFG% on those. (44% eFG% this year)

I have the following wishlist
1) Get his jumpshot back to 47% and then maybe higher (currently only a pedestrian 44%)
2) Get him involved in the offense in meaningful ways

Everything else is way down the road.
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Old 12-02-2019, 05:05 PM   #12
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KP before being injured vs. this year

jumpshots (80% in New York, 81% with Dallas)
46.7% eFG in New York
44.0% with Dallas (well below his numbers before the injury, but I expect that to rise. 47% is respectable)

Layups and hooks (13% of attempts in NY, 12% in Dallas)
42.5% eFG in New York
35.5% in Dallas

Dunks (7% of his attempts with both teams)
88.3% eFG in New York
100.0% with Dallas

Post-ups
43.5% eFG in New York (2017-2018)
31.6% eFG with Dallas

It's clear that KP does two things well:
1) Dunk
2) shoot jumpers

Even before his injury, he was a very sub-par post player down low. He has a ton of potential, but New York did not develop his post moves at all.
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Old 12-02-2019, 05:15 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky View Post
KP before being injured vs. this year

jumpshots (80% in New York, 81% with Dallas)
46.7% eFG in New York
44.0% with Dallas (well below his numbers before the injury, but I expect that to rise. 47% is respectable)

Layups and hooks (13% of attempts in NY, 12% in Dallas)
42.5% eFG in New York
35.5% in Dallas

Dunks (7% of his attempts with both teams)
88.3% eFG in New York
100.0% with Dallas

Post-ups
43.5% eFG in New York (2017-2018)
31.6% eFG with Dallas

It's clear that KP does two things well:
1) Dunk
2) shoot jumpers

Even before his injury, he was a very sub-par post player down low. He has a ton of potential, but New York did not develop his post moves at all.
The funny thing about playing in the post is, you really only need one decent move to be effective. And I think KP already has the move- the turnaround jumper. I think he just needs to get more comfortable with it. As far as I can tell there's no earthly reason why he can't hit that shot at a decent percentage. For some reason though, he just seems to panic when he catches the ball in the post.
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Old 12-02-2019, 08:12 PM   #14
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I'm actually shocked KP is this bad in the post

His body build is very similar to anthony davis yet davis has some post game.

Kevin Durant isn't physically imposing but he can post up a little

Not sure what happend to KP but you'd think the mavs would hire someone to help him develope a post move even if it's the dirk one legged fadeaway

If your to invest that much money into a big he damn well should have some sort of a post game right?
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Old 12-02-2019, 08:18 PM   #15
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I'm actually shocked KP is this bad in the post

His body build is very similar to anthony davis yet davis has some post game.

Kevin Durant isn't physically imposing but he can post up a little

Not sure what happend to KP but you'd think the mavs would hire someone to help him develope a post move even if it's the dirk one legged fadeaway

If your to invest that much money into a big he damn well should have some sort of a post game right?
There's a reason Dirk's one-legged fadaway is associated with him and him alone- because he's the only guy that could do it. I think KP already has a nice turnaround jumper and just needs to get comfortable with that and improve his percentage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vt0mO_y4H1U
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Old 12-02-2019, 09:29 PM   #16
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Speaking from my own experience with a dislocated elbow, the psychological trauma of his torn ACL is a lot more difficult to recover from than the injury itself. He needs to learn to trust his body again, right now he's still overprotecting himself with every little movement -- even the non-contact stuff. Give it time, he probably won't be "right" until the All-Star break or so, possibly even next season.
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Old 12-02-2019, 09:48 PM   #17
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Speaking from my own experience with a dislocated elbow, the psychological trauma of his torn ACL is a lot more difficult to recover from than the injury itself. He needs to learn to trust his body again, right now he's still overprotecting himself with every little movement -- even the non-contact stuff. Give it time, he probably won't be "right" until the All-Star break or so, possibly even next season.
Someone here compared him to Gordon Hayward recently, which really put it in perspective. It took Hayward an entire year to regain his confidence and play close to his former self.
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Old 12-02-2019, 10:15 PM   #18
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Someone here compared him to Gordon Hayward recently, which really put it in perspective. It took Hayward an entire year to regain his confidence and play close to his former self.
Yeah, that's a really good comparison. It's an ego blow for these young guys, reminds them that they're mortal in a league of perceived demigods. A dose of reality can be a great growing experience, but growth doesn't follow a set timeline.
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Old 12-03-2019, 11:17 AM   #19
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I don't think his mid post game is that bad. He just seems to rush a turnaround jumper it instead of taking his time to read the defense.
This 100%.
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Old 12-03-2019, 12:33 PM   #20
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I agree that KP is rushing his mid-range game right now, and he's even rushing his long-range catch and shoot opportunities at times. He'll get there.

I also agree that he has been pretty rough in the low post. For starters, he doesn't seem, for whatever reason, to be able to get very good position. And then, once he catches, he has looked like a fish out of water. I didn't watch him enough in NY to have an opinion on whether this is due to injury/rust or if he has just never had this in his tool belt.

Here's the thing though: does this matter? In a way, I think it does, because it would be nice for KP in the post to be something the team could rely on while Luka is resting, but in terms of their main unit, I'm not sure they want KP posting up, even if he improves there.

I recently listened to Bill Simmons/Daryl Morey pod that included quite a bit of opinion from Morey about how the Yao/McGrady fit was much more awkward than people realized at the time, including team officials. The conclusion was basically that when you have a transcendent handler like McGrady (or Doncic) the lumbering post player essentially causes more harm than good by getting in the way and clogging things up. Not sure yet, but I feel like what the Mavs will try to develop is the 2-man game between Luka and KP, as is being discussed in the other thread. It's not there yet, but I think that is the way for KP to HELP Luka, rather than make things more difficult for him.
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Old 12-05-2019, 10:04 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson View Post
The funny thing about playing in the post is, you really only need one decent move to be effective. And I think KP already has the move- the turnaround jumper. I think he just needs to get more comfortable with it. As far as I can tell there's no earthly reason why he can't hit that shot at a decent percentage. For some reason though, he just seems to panic when he catches the ball in the post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerLeft View Post
I agree that KP is rushing his mid-range game right now, and he's even rushing his long-range catch and shoot opportunities at times. He'll get there.

I also agree that he has been pretty rough in the low post. For starters, he doesn't seem, for whatever reason, to be able to get very good position. And then, once he catches, he has looked like a fish out of water. I didn't watch him enough in NY to have an opinion on whether this is due to injury/rust or if he has just never had this in his tool belt.

Here's the thing though: does this matter? In a way, I think it does, because it would be nice for KP in the post to be something the team could rely on while Luka is resting, but in terms of their main unit, I'm not sure they want KP posting up, even if he improves there.

I recently listened to Bill Simmons/Daryl Morey pod that included quite a bit of opinion from Morey about how the Yao/McGrady fit was much more awkward than people realized at the time, including team officials. The conclusion was basically that when you have a transcendent handler like McGrady (or Doncic) the lumbering post player essentially causes more harm than good by getting in the way and clogging things up. Not sure yet, but I feel like what the Mavs will try to develop is the 2-man game between Luka and KP, as is being discussed in the other thread. It's not there yet, but I think that is the way for KP to HELP Luka, rather than make things more difficult for him.
I think what this is showing is also how much of the game KP played in NY was mostly due to instincts, with no good coaching whatsoever.

In a team which is, apparently, very close to the elite, he really needs to learn better how to read the game and pick his spots.

Dirk did, even with a prime ballhandler like Nash and later Kidd. Hopefully KP gets there through the years. But yes, his game needs a lot more refinement, which is expected out of big guys.
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