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Old 02-14-2020, 11:19 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by SMC0007 View Post
Milwaukee, LA, Denver, Utah to name a few contenders that have size.
Yeah, their best players happen to be big. If their best players were wings, they would play them instead. But playing big players just because they happen to be big is not smart basketball anymore

No NBA team is going to stop using a system that is working to give minutes to a journeyman player

And our lack of defense is more of a function of the fact that we are a year (at least) ahead of schedule. The team will gell and become better defensively

And lets not forget that we're had a couple of duds. Wright was supposed to shore up our point guard defense and he's under-performed. We tried to get Green (twice). Apparently we tried to get Iggy. We have tried to get above average wing defenders

This season is a joy because we should have been 40 to 44 wins but we are better than that. Luka is amazing and KP is finally getting to where everyone wants him to be. DFS is much improved, Maxi rocks, and NOBODY expected THJ to be this good. Next year I hope for more improvement and afterwards, then maybe lightning will strike and we'll get a premium free agent

I'm not going to get worked up about a journeyman center's minutes. Not this season and probably not next season either
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Old 02-15-2020, 11:51 AM   #162
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Never averaged even 10 minutes per game for the Warriors



Of course Powell is a journeyman center. He's certainly not a star. He's not particularly valuable. There wasn't a line of teams vying to get his services during his free agency
Mic drop reference was for Powell being correctly id'd as journeyman center, more like situational backup journeyman imo.

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Old 02-15-2020, 11:53 AM   #163
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Who cares about size advantage? Its a dinosaur concept. The best way to win is to play your best players



Our defense is bad but our offense is amazing. The object of the game is to score more points than your opponent



I hate small ball too but that's the way the NBA is going. Why should we buck the trend?
Size doesn't matter? Yeah, give me a midget guard all day long over giant in the paint who can dunk a ball flat footed. /sarc

Not going to win jack without paint defense and rebounding.

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Old 02-15-2020, 11:59 AM   #164
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Yeah, their best players happen to be big. If their best players were wings, they would play them instead. But playing big players just because they happen to be big is not smart basketball anymore

No NBA team is going to stop using a system that is working to give minutes to a journeyman player

And our lack of defense is more of a function of the fact that we are a year (at least) ahead of schedule. The team will gell and become better defensively

And lets not forget that we're had a couple of duds. Wright was supposed to shore up our point guard defense and he's under-performed. We tried to get Green (twice). Apparently we tried to get Iggy. We have tried to get above average wing defenders

This season is a joy because we should have been 40 to 44 wins but we are better than that. Luka is amazing and KP is finally getting to where everyone wants him to be. DFS is much improved, Maxi rocks, and NOBODY expected THJ to be this good. Next year I hope for more improvement and afterwards, then maybe lightning will strike and we'll get a premium free agent

I'm not going to get worked up about a journeyman center's minutes. Not this season and probably not next season either
Their best players happen to be big because the GM built the team that way.
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Old 02-15-2020, 01:59 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Dallas41 View Post
His minutes with golden st always increased doing the playoffs and rightfully so because that's when you need post defense and rebounding the most.
1st season: reg- 9.6, po- 9.3

So, nope.

2nd season: reg- 9.5, po- 12.2

Almost 3 whole minutes.
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Old 02-15-2020, 04:24 PM   #166
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Size doesn't matter? Yeah, give me a midget guard all day long over giant in the paint who can dunk a ball flat footed. /sarc

Not going to win jack without paint defense and rebounding.
So you would rather have Adams over Westbrook? Whiteside more than Lillard? Wait you say, there is a massive talent difference there. Well yes there is. If there were more talented large players then it would be easy to build out a roster. But a lot of teams are bypassing playing less talented players just because of their size.

And you bring up rebounding. The Mavs are FOURTH in the league (ahead of the Lakers who use that super-effective bruiser McGee). One of the teams ahead of us is the Clipper who rarely use a true center at all. Zubac only plays around 18 min per game and he's the ONLY player above 6'8" on the team
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Old 02-15-2020, 04:51 PM   #167
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Their best players happen to be big because the GM built the team that way.
I'm pretty sure that Giannis wouldn't have lasted to pick number 15 if there wasn't some question as to whether he would develop

Jokic wasn't drafted until pick 41. I don't think the team was planning for him to be a superstar to build around

Siakam was 27th. Bam lasted to the 14th pick. Gobert was the 27th pick. Sabonis was #11

Yes if you have one of the top 3 picks then there is a greater than average chance to be able to pick a player that you can build around. Outside the top ten its a crapshoot and nobody can positively identify the building blocks of a future team

And of those six guys - four of them are proficient at shooting the 3
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Old 02-15-2020, 05:48 PM   #168
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I'm pretty sure that Giannis wouldn't have lasted to pick number 15 if there wasn't some question as to whether he would develop

Jokic wasn't drafted until pick 41. I don't think the team was planning for him to be a superstar to build around

Siakam was 27th. Bam lasted to the 14th pick. Gobert was the 27th pick. Sabonis was #11

Yes if you have one of the top 3 picks then there is a greater than average chance to be able to pick a player that you can build around. Outside the top ten its a crapshoot and nobody can positively identify the building blocks of a future team

And of those six guys - four of them are proficient at shooting the 3
I'm not talking about drafting. Almost all of them were re signed to big deals as key players. Davis also signed a big deal....and he isn't a 3pt threat. Bigs are in high demand even if they aren't perimeter threats especially if they are mobile and can defend\shot block.
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Old 02-15-2020, 06:32 PM   #169
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I'm not talking about drafting. Almost all of them were re signed to big deals as key players. Davis also signed a big deal....and he isn't a 3pt threat. Bigs are in high demand even if they aren't perimeter threats especially if they are mobile and can defend\shot block.
If you have a key player who happens to be a big then of course you keep them - I'm not understanding what you are trying to say. You would also keep a key player if he was a wing or a point guard too

You shape your roster around your best players. Davis is a great player and of course he was going to get a big deal. And you deal with their minuses by the role players (ie journeymen players). Or you make their strengths stronger with it. Luka is a great passer so having great shooters around him makes the team even stronger

And we do have a big who is mobile and can defend\shot block. And is a perimeter threat. His name is Porzingis in case you forgot. So why play another big who isn't better than other players on your roster? One who doesn't fit your style of play? WCS isn't better than Maxi either and Maxi fits our style of play perfectly. WCS isn't better than Curry and he certainly doesn't fit our style of play better

So why do you insist that the Mavs need to play him more? Journeyman players have to adapt to the system, not expect the system to adapt to them
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Old 02-15-2020, 07:15 PM   #170
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If you have a key player who happens to be a big then of course you keep them - I'm not understanding what you are trying to say. You would also keep a key player if he was a wing or a point guard too

You shape your roster around your best players. Davis is a great player and of course he was going to get a big deal. And you deal with their minuses by the role players (ie journeymen players). Or you make their strengths stronger with it. Luka is a great passer so having great shooters around him makes the team even stronger

And we do have a big who is mobile and can defend\shot block. And is a perimeter threat. His name is Porzingis in case you forgot. So why play another big who isn't better than other players on your roster? One who doesn't fit your style of play? WCS isn't better than Maxi either and Maxi fits our style of play perfectly. WCS isn't better than Curry and he certainly doesn't fit our style of play better

So why do you insist that the Mavs need to play him more? Journeyman players have to adapt to the system, not expect the system to adapt to them
My point is still opposing the idea that bigs are a dinosaur concept. I pointed out teams that are contenders and basically all of them are using 2 bigs, often.

Not saying you are wrong, but I'm not a fan of comparing different positions like Curry is better than Willie. He's better at shooting and dribbling, but not defending and rebounding.

I have expressed my opinion on why he should start a couple of times already. He has been productive in his minutes here. Surprisingly so. I wasn't a big fan of the trade because I didn't think he was good enough to bother and I felt like it was pointless unless Maxi goes down too. Something that forces Rick to play him. This 3 and 5 mins a game is pointless. Maxi is not that much better. I think he is adjusting to the system fine, it's not like he is running to the low block and calling for a pass or shooting bad shots. He is moving the ball well, defending and challenging shots. Idk what else he needs to do to get more time to prove himself.
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Old 02-16-2020, 12:30 AM   #171
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My point is still opposing the idea that bigs are a dinosaur concept. I pointed out teams that are contenders and basically all of them are using 2 bigs, often.
We play Porzingis 30 mpg and Maxi 25 mpg (Powell was 26 mpg) which was 80ish minutes. With WCS playing around 12 mpg we're still at 67ish minutes

In comparison, Denver plays Jokic 32 mpg and Plumlee 17 mpg. Porter Jr plays 14 mpg. 63ish minutes

Utah plays Gobert 34 mpg and Davis/Bradley about 21 mpg. 55ish minutes

The Clippers barely uses a big at all. Houston doesn't use one anymore

The idea that bigs are a dinosaur concept is real. There are some teams that still use it and are scary effective with it but very few teams are playing guys that are merely big. Skilled and big, yes. Just because they are big, no

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I wasn't a big fan of the trade because I didn't think he was good enough to bother and I felt like it was pointless unless Maxi goes down too.
Yep. I was ok with the trade but I didn't think WCS would get many minutes unless there was another injury
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Old 02-16-2020, 11:24 AM   #172
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I don't see WCS on this team next year but if he decides to stick around to be in an insurance role that would be fine.
This year's draft should be fairly rich with bigs in the 20-45 range and if there are no decent wings available it might be a good option to take a big with one of our picks in that range.

Some notable names potentially in that range:

Jalen Smith
Vernon Carey Jr.
Zeke Nnaji
Udoka Azubuike
Nick Richards
Omer Yurtseven
Austin Wiley

Sleeper:
Aleksej Pokusevski (seems like a perfect RC guy....7ft, great handles, good shooter, shot blocker, decent athleticism).

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Old 02-17-2020, 11:15 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by turin View Post
Size doesn't matter? Yeah, give me a midget guard all day long over giant in the paint who can dunk a ball flat footed. /sarc

Not going to win jack without paint defense and rebounding.

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You guys are waisting time debating with this guy.

I stopped responding the minute he said bigs are dinosaurs

Seems like anyone who has watched Utah and LA destroy us on the boards with our small ball lineups would understand your not winning those battles in the post season.

We don't have elite wing defenders like the clippers to make small ball work. Our wing defenders consist of guys like curry, Brunson, THJ and Wright that tandem is nice if your playing the likes of Washington or Atlanta when you don't have to get stops consistently

But those teams aren't going to the playoffs

The mavs are 4-12 vs west playoffs teams and quite a few of those games were decided because they just couldn't get any stops

One in particular was having DFS switch off on to Jokic on last defensive possession and he was just to small to contest that shot.

The Lakers meanwhile in one of their last games before the ASG was in the same situation late in a game and they were able to throw dwight Howard all over jokic to get late game stop while a.davis was defending J.Grant

So yes size does still matter even if your not playing all game with it.

You can still be strategic in the ways you use size to help you win games especially come playoff time.

Last edited by Dallas41; 02-17-2020 at 11:19 AM.
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Old 02-17-2020, 05:10 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Dallas41
I stopped responding the minute he said bigs are dinosaurs
>>>IF<<< your best players are bigs then play them of course. If they aren't then you are being crazy to play them because "that's the way it has always been". The game is moving away from the plodding defensive slugfest of the olden days towards a glorious time where skill is more important

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Originally Posted by Dallas41
Seems like anyone who has watched Utah and LA destroy us on the boards with our small ball lineups would understand your not winning those battles in the post season.
And you REALLY think WCS is going to stop them? OK

You did read that we play bigs more minutes than Denver OR Utah right? I can post it again if you need me to

We play Porzingis 30 mpg and Maxi 25 mpg (Powell was 26 mpg) which was 80ish minutes. With WCS playing around 12 mpg we're still at 67ish minutes

In comparison, Denver plays Jokic 32 mpg and Plumlee 17 mpg. Porter Jr plays 14 mpg. 63ish minutes

Utah plays Gobert 34 mpg and Davis/Bradley about 21 mpg. 55ish minutes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallas41
We don't have elite wing defenders like the clippers to make small ball work.
Wait. I thought small ball couldn't work

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallas41
Our wing defenders consist of guys like curry, Brunson, THJ and Wright that tandem is nice if your playing the likes of Washington or Atlanta when you don't have to get stops consistently

But those teams aren't going to the playoffs

The mavs are 4-12 vs west playoffs teams and quite a few of those games were decided because they just couldn't get any stops

One in particular was having DFS switch off on to Jokic on last defensive possession and he was just to small to contest that shot.

The Lakers meanwhile in one of their last games before the ASG was in the same situation late in a game and they were able to throw dwight Howard all over jokic to get late game stop while a.davis was defending J.Grant

So yes size does still matter even if your not playing all game with it.

You can still be strategic in the ways you use size to help you win games especially come playoff time.
Again if you think that WCS is going to win that defensive battle then you are completely right. I think he's got zero chance so our best chance to win is to have one of Howard or Davis trying to guard the perimeter. That's a matchup that favors us while the other is not
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Old 02-17-2020, 09:13 PM   #175
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The league is moving away from traditional centers. That is pretty much an indisputable fact. That doesn't mean bigs don't still have place in the league, but superstar bigs can't carry teams the way they once did.

The main question with WCS is whether he is here to replace Powell's role or Boban's role. I hope it's Powell, but I'm not gonna lie...I like KP at center. If the Mavs can get an athletic, defensive 4 alongside KP, then I can't complain. But I hope WCS CAN play that role. He'll have to work his ass off to earn it though. That's just usually the Rick way.
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Old 02-17-2020, 10:53 PM   #176
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The league is moving away from traditional centers. That is pretty much an indisputable fact. That doesn't mean bigs don't still have place in the league, but superstar bigs can't carry teams the way they once did.

The main question with WCS is whether he is here to replace Powell's role or Boban's role. I hope it's Powell, but I'm not gonna lie...I like KP at center. If the Mavs can get an athletic, defensive 4 alongside KP, then I can't complain. But I hope WCS CAN play that role. He'll have to work his ass off to earn it though. That's just usually the Rick way.
I haven't fully decoded how one gets in (or out of) Rick's rotation...but I'm almost certain there is more to it than simply working their ass off. You also gotta shoot 3s, Bru!
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Old Yesterday, 12:33 AM   #177
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What some people seem to be missing here is that RC's choices about who to play are not just his own preferences. It is also the case of other teams playing in a certain way so that he doesn't have a lot of options about playing/not playing certain players. Yes, of course, he could err more on the side of playing bigs in optimising his offensive-defensive formula, and there are certain situations in certain games when it is not clear that what you gain on offense is not worth what you lose on defense. Those are tough decisions and RC sometimes recognizes as much in his press conferences. Following the Utah game, for example, he didn't sound very religious to me when he was asked about going with a smaller line-up. He sounded like it was a tough decision, and on-balance, he decided what he decided, and accepted responsbility for that choice.

But when it comes to other teams playing in a certain way and leaving little options, think of Boban as an example. The fact that almost no other teams play traditional, big-man, Patrick-Ewing-type basketball, and the fact that Boban is simply not switchable on defense, means that his lack of mobility is easily exploited because most teams are geared precisely towards exploiting such "weaknesses". Most teams today are made to pray on that. That's how they approach basketball. That's the big reason (and not RC per se) why Boban doesn't get minutes. And keep in mind that Boban doesn't get minutes just in Dallas but in the NBA as a whole. That's why his career pretty much looks like that of a journeyman big.

People who do not see this are the true dinosaurs, and that includes plenty of former players currently working as "analysts" on ESPN who don't watch actual Dallas games, see KP scoring 12 points in a game, know that he's 7.3 unicorn, and then say: "Duh, he needs to post up more." To that RC would say yes, maybe he needs to post-up more, but in certain situations and against certain teams so that the weaknesses of the opposing team can be exploited (case in point was our last Rockets game when KP was posting Harden and Westbrook). And that is how RC sees the game: Exploit The Weaknesses of The Opposing Line-Up At All Times.

Some people here claim that you need to play your bigs to shore up your defense and thereby "force" the opposing team to adapt to your game. Play your game. Don't always match the opposition. Let the opposition match to you.

RC's philosophy is diametrically opposite. For him, you match the opposing team's line-up to exploit its weaknesses. And RC certainly ain't doing it Houston Rockets' way (i.e. eliminate bigs). He likes bigs and he wants to use bigs but they just need to satisfy two conditions to get big minutes. If they satisfy these conditions then they can be used in many, many situations to exploit the opposing team's weaknesses:

1. Can stretch the floor on offense, and
2. Are switchable on defense.

Boban sadly cannot do the latter and can therefore be used only in situations where sacrificing switchability on defense is not too costly because the other team cannot exploit it readily. WCS has greater promise because he looks extremely mobile for his size (switchable), and can in time perhaps even shoot 3s (which would make him "stretchable" on offense).

I like RC's philosophy for 2 reasons.

First, it is modern (i.e. works in the present-day NBA) and it is already showing great results. Nobody expected Dallas to have the season they are having (barring the injury problems to Luka and KP which have resulted in a diminished form and standing).

Second, and more importantly, RC's basketball is playoffs basketball and playoffs basketball is all about adjustments. It is not about playing one way. If you do that you run into a problem when the opposing team adjusts to you. Rather, you win by out-adjusting your opponent. The examples of that are, of course, everywhere in pretty much all years but I will just mention one - how Raptors beat Bucks last year by making an adjustment that Bucks just couldn't handle.

What this means, therefore, is that you may actually have a playoff series in which Boban and WCS get significantly greater minutes than during the regular season if that will successfully exploit the weaknesses of the opposition. Ironically, however, if and when that were to happen, many people here would still blame RC saying: "See, when you play Boban (or WCS) your defense/offense is better and you win. He should play more in the regular season!" They would continue to see basketball in a different way. And when you have a different philosophy to someone else, you can look at exactly the same thing as them, but see it completely differently.

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Old Yesterday, 09:29 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart View Post
but I'm not gonna lie...I like KP at center.
Of course! That's what he is!
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Old Today, 03:55 AM   #179
FreshJive
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Originally Posted by LukaMagic View Post
What some people seem to be missing here is that RC's choices about who to play are not just his own preferences. It is also the case of other teams playing in a certain way so that he doesn't have a lot of options about playing/not playing certain players. Yes, of course, he could err more on the side of playing bigs in optimising his offensive-defensive formula, and there are certain situations in certain games when it is not clear that what you gain on offense is not worth what you lose on defense. Those are tough decisions and RC sometimes recognizes as much in his press conferences. Following the Utah game, for example, he didn't sound very religious to me when he was asked about going with a smaller line-up. He sounded like it was a tough decision, and on-balance, he decided what he decided, and accepted responsbility for that choice.

But when it comes to other teams playing in a certain way and leaving little options, think of Boban as an example. The fact that almost no other teams play traditional, big-man, Patrick-Ewing-type basketball, and the fact that Boban is simply not switchable on defense, means that his lack of mobility is easily exploited because most teams are geared precisely towards exploiting such "weaknesses". Most teams today are made to pray on that. That's how they approach basketball. That's the big reason (and not RC per se) why Boban doesn't get minutes. And keep in mind that Boban doesn't get minutes just in Dallas but in the NBA as a whole. That's why his career pretty much looks like that of a journeyman big.

People who do not see this are the true dinosaurs, and that includes plenty of former players currently working as "analysts" on ESPN who don't watch actual Dallas games, see KP scoring 12 points in a game, know that he's 7.3 unicorn, and then say: "Duh, he needs to post up more." To that RC would say yes, maybe he needs to post-up more, but in certain situations and against certain teams so that the weaknesses of the opposing team can be exploited (case in point was our last Rockets game when KP was posting Harden and Westbrook). And that is how RC sees the game: Exploit The Weaknesses of The Opposing Line-Up At All Times.

Some people here claim that you need to play your bigs to shore up your defense and thereby "force" the opposing team to adapt to your game. Play your game. Don't always match the opposition. Let the opposition match to you.

RC's philosophy is diametrically opposite. For him, you match the opposing team's line-up to exploit its weaknesses. And RC certainly ain't doing it Houston Rockets' way (i.e. eliminate bigs). He likes bigs and he wants to use bigs but they just need to satisfy two conditions to get big minutes. If they satisfy these conditions then they can be used in many, many situations to exploit the opposing team's weaknesses:

1. Can stretch the floor on offense, and
2. Are switchable on defense.

Boban sadly cannot do the latter and can therefore be used only in situations where sacrificing switchability on defense is not too costly because the other team cannot exploit it readily. WCS has greater promise because he looks extremely mobile for his size (switchable), and can in time perhaps even shoot 3s (which would make him "stretchable" on offense).

I like RC's philosophy for 2 reasons.

First, it is modern (i.e. works in the present-day NBA) and it is already showing great results. Nobody expected Dallas to have the season they are having (barring the injury problems to Luka and KP which have resulted in a diminished form and standing).

Second, and more importantly, RC's basketball is playoffs basketball and playoffs basketball is all about adjustments. It is not about playing one way. If you do that you run into a problem when the opposing team adjusts to you. Rather, you win by out-adjusting your opponent. The examples of that are, of course, everywhere in pretty much all years but I will just mention one - how Raptors beat Bucks last year by making an adjustment that Bucks just couldn't handle.

What this means, therefore, is that you may actually have a playoff series in which Boban and WCS get significantly greater minutes than during the regular season if that will successfully exploit the weaknesses of the opposition. Ironically, however, if and when that were to happen, many people here would still blame RC saying: "See, when you play Boban (or WCS) your defense/offense is better and you win. He should play more in the regular season!" They would continue to see basketball in a different way. And when you have a different philosophy to someone else, you can look at exactly the same thing as them, but see it completely differently.
This is why I like Boban on this team, I am a fan of the WCS trade, and the MKG signing, but I don't whine about them not being on the floor all times.
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Old Today, 09:00 PM   #180
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I find it funny that some people here think that the Mavs can enforce their will and make other teams play big/small with the roster we have.

10-15mpg backups and borderline second-stringers like WCS aren't going to make teams adapt to us. Boban comes in to score some easy twos and the opposing team gets everything they want offensively (both inside and out), but that'll make the opponent go big for some reason? WCS comes in and helps our defense, but brings our offense to a standstill, but the opposing team will need to go big because? I don't get it.

Even KP who is supposed to be a star has been completely unable to take advantage of smaller players. In fact, he struggles more against teams that put small players on him, so when we play him (a 7'3" dude), other teams are actually incentivized to play small because they can take away his drive and get him to cough up the ball. The smaller player defends KP better and gives the opposing team the advantage on offense as well.

How exactly are we supposed to enforce our will on other teams with the roster we have? We have the best 6'8" PG to ever live, but the rest of the roster either plays small or isn't good enough to make the opponent match. It's sad but true.
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Old Today, 09:14 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky View Post
I find it funny that some people here think that the Mavs can enforce their will and make other teams play big/small with the roster we have.

10-15mpg backups and borderline second-stringers like WCS aren't going to make teams adapt to us. Boban comes in to score some easy twos and the opposing team gets everything they want offensively (both inside and out), but that'll make the opponent go big for some reason? WCS comes in and helps our defense, but brings our offense to a standstill, but the opposing team will need to go big because? I don't get it.

Even KP who is supposed to be a star has been completely unable to take advantage of smaller players. In fact, he struggles more against teams that put small players on him, so when we play him (a 7'3" dude), other teams are actually incentivized to play small because they can take away his drive and get him to cough up the ball. The smaller player defends KP better and gives the opposing team the advantage on offense as well.

How exactly are we supposed to enforce our will on other teams with the roster we have? We have the best 6'8" PG to ever live, but the rest of the roster either plays small or isn't good enough to make the opponent match. It's sad but true.
I disagree with this. Remember that KP is still finding his feet post-injury, literally and also in terms of adjusting to the system.

Watch this and count the number of set-plays (not accidental by-products of transition) that were called for KP and that involved him shooting from the outside. I counted exactly z e r o.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOYOX8F3Qmw
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