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Old 02-05-2019, 04:45 PM   #441
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A lot of Mavs history recall fail in this thread. Cuban had nothing to do with Dirk, Nash, or Fin being in Dallas. He fucked up the Nash and Giannis decisions.
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Old 02-05-2019, 04:50 PM   #442
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Good article by Stein about the trade: https://static.nytimes.com/email-content/MSB_10011.html
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Old 02-05-2019, 04:53 PM   #443
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Also, I don’t think the twans were supposed to actually work here. They were just tradable assets. This may be my history recall fail, but iirc this all came out after they were gone. I think Jamison was aware that he was going to spend a season being a sixth man of the year candidate until the Mavs found him a new home.
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Old 02-05-2019, 04:56 PM   #444
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Iím willing to bet Google has the answer youíre looking for.
Overlooked that we had the 13th pick when I did my Google search of the 2013 NBA draft.
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Old 02-05-2019, 06:28 PM   #445
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I feel like I am still missing something. Didn't we have the 16th pick before trading down? Are you suggesting that we could have traded up to pick ahead of Milwaukee?
This has the notes of where the pick went.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_NBA_draft

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Old 02-05-2019, 07:30 PM   #446
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Also, I donít think the twans were supposed to actually work here. They were just tradable assets. This may be my history recall fail, but iirc this all came out after they were gone. I think Jamison was aware that he was going to spend a season being a sixth man of the year candidate until the Mavs found him a new home.
It was definitely supposed to work. Antoine Walker was the point forward that Nellie had wanted.
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Old 02-05-2019, 07:33 PM   #447
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It was definitely supposed to work. Antoine Walker was the point forward that Nellie had wanted.
Too bad Nellie never had a chance to coach Luka, he's the kind of point forward Nellie could only dream of.
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Old 02-05-2019, 07:46 PM   #448
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Too bad Nellie never had a chance to coach Luka, he's the kind of point forward Nellie could only dream of.
The NBA is such a Nellie league these days -- GSW is basically a Nellie wet dream.
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Old 02-05-2019, 07:54 PM   #449
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The NBA is such a Nellie league these days -- GSW is basically a Nellie wet dream.
True... but I'm not sure a middle school coach could fuck up gsw.
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Old 02-05-2019, 08:07 PM   #450
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True... but I'm not sure a middle school coach could fuck up gsw.
I was looking more at height/size than raw talent, but you're right.
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Old 02-05-2019, 08:18 PM   #451
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The NBA is such a Nellie league these days -- GSW is basically a Nellie wet dream.
This is why I always laugh when people give D'Antoni so much credit for "revolutionizing" the game in Phoenix. He did absolutely nothing Nellie hadn't already been doing for YEARS.
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Old 02-05-2019, 08:21 PM   #452
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Nash and Finley were not in the same deal. Finley was a Maverick long before Nash came aboard. Nash was a draft day deal in the Dirk draft.
Thanks for the correction. I'm going to have to look it up and read a bit on the history. It's amazing that it's been 20+ years. How time flies!
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Old 02-05-2019, 08:23 PM   #453
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The NBA is such a Nellie league these days -- GSW is basically a Nellie wet dream.
Exactly what I was thinking. The mad genius was ahead of his time.
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Old 02-05-2019, 08:33 PM   #454
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Exactly what I was thinking. The mad genius was ahead of his time.
Emphasis on the "mad" in "mad genius. He may have been a genius and ahead of his time, but he was also a bit of a nightmare, and most of us were not sad to see him go.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, Nellie is one of the most fascinating paradoxes in all of sports. I don't know of anyone in sports history who was both universally recognized as one of the all-time greats, a genius, and an innovator, and who was also seen by those same people as a bit of a clown, and not taken very seriously.

This article from a Warriors fan in 2012, long before the current dynasty, is a real treasure. It's amazing how after he ripped the collective hearts out of us Mavs fans in 2007, he went on to slowly do the same to Warriors fans.

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https://deadspin.com/deadspin-nba-sh...own-ge-5962151


Deadspin NBA Shit List: Don Nelson, Drunk On His Own Genius (And Scotch)

Ethan Sherwood Strauss
11/20/12

Now, I'm not saying Don Nelson is an alcoholic. But when he called up KNBR from a bar, drinking a mid-day scotch, slurring about Stephen Jackson that "it's harder than hell to trade that guy," quickly followed by "we're trying," well, he gave off the impression of a man who just by sighing could light up a breathalyzer like a pinball machine.

Don Nelson, the coach in Golden State from 1988-95 and then again from 2006-10, is celebrated by the Warriors as though this didn't happen. As though he didn't silently hang his head during timeouts. As though the Warriors didn't pay him $6 million just to go away. As though the man who drove young Chris Webber out of town is someone Golden State fans should love and revere like a father.

And we will love and revere him like a father because that's how fucked up he made us. We can't quit him. Nellie had the surly charisma of a mafia underboss, and in the hoops backwater of Oakland, we were so starved for attention that it was reckoned an honor that someone of his stature would want to fuck with us.

He had that smirking aspect to his personality that all elite coaches possess. You used to see it most clearly whenever Gregg Popovich would foul Shaq for a lark, or whenever Phil Jackson would passive-aggressively tweak a nervy opponent, smiling that wry smile. The most powerful coaches are so above the game that they condescend to it.

Don Nelson? He would drink beers in his playoff press conferences and predict losses for his underdog team. He turned his lineups into a serial comedy. Andris Biedrins and four little guys? Why not? What about no big men at all? Sure. Fuck it.

Nellie didn't care; he wanted to be small in a sport that rewards height. The strategy was not without merit, but you got the sense that this was something other than hoops pragmatism. He'd always been a restless tinkerer, going back to his days as the coach and GM of the Milwaukee Bucks. During his Dallas interregnum, he fashioned his best teams around his 7-footer's ability to shoot three pointers. The Mavericks won 57 games in 2001-2002, while finishing 25th in defensive rating—which hardly seems possible, until you recall that Dirk Nowitzki and Steve Nash were running the offense. Don Nelson had succeeded in rebuilding Dallas, and more importantly, he'd done it his way.

After he flamed out with Mark Cuban and came back to Oakland, Nellie seemed to take an almost adolescent glee in being weird. The result was gonzo basketball, fuck-it basketball—it was about sending up institutional norms and terrorizing the squares and maybe winning a few games along the way. In 2007, it worked spectacularly. Facing the all too logically constructed Mavericks, the chaos agent blew up everything in sight; by the end, there was nothing left of Dallas but the stick jammed up Avery Johnson's ass.

It was glorious, but the long, bitter goodbye would follow. After the Warriors nearly made the playoffs in 2008, we slowly began to learn the dark side of whimsy. Nellie's guys went 55-109 over the next two seasons. The names were increasingly unfamiliar. Baron Davis left for Los Angeles. Jason Richardson was traded for Brandan Wright, a useful player whose health and minutes suffered under Nellie. No good came of Nelson's relationship with Anthony Randolph, either. Randolph's wild style theoretically should have meshed with Nellie's, but the two strains of weird formed a toxic compound. Something had happened. Quirkiness had become an end unto itself. Nellie had wanted so much for his final Warriors teams to bear the imprint of his genius that he wound up crushing them.

Al Harrington once said of Nelson, "He's been known to ruin guys' careers." Harrington was referring to young players, but they weren't the only ones to get fitted for cement shoes. Chris Mullin was fired from his GM position and replaced by Nelson's friend Larry Riley.

Nelson consolidated power, but in retrospect this doesn't seem like cold-eyed front-office maneuvering; this was just another step in a man's ongoing slow-motion public tantrum. When Nellie pillaged the D-League while playing Mikki Moore at center, he came off like a self-saboteur. Leads were flicked away when Captain Quirk subbed out his rebounders for D-League guards. In his final two seasons, Nelson used an astounding 1,008 different lineups.

As he neared the all-time wins record, he looked more and more disheveled, evoking memories of Boris Yeltsin at his most pickled. He was an embarrassment, one that would linger long after the memories of the We Believe Warriors had turned distant. Nellie was an indictment of our fandom—a sad mass of sagging skin whose sole raison d'etre, it seemed to me, was to antagonize us with stubbornly bad, defense-free basketball.

I'm convinced the latter-day Nelson knew what he was doing. He either hated himself or hated us, and the Warriors on his watch became nothing more than a vessel for his spite. In 2007, Don Nelson caught lightning in a bottle. He spent much of his remaining time in the Bay Area drinking himself into crapulence on its contents. And we'll always forgive him because there's nothing else here to love.

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Old 02-05-2019, 08:39 PM   #455
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Incidentally, Nellie seems to be enjoying the hell out of his retirement and living it up appropriately in Maui.

Apparently, he grows his own weed, and also this is what he looks like nowadays-

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Old 02-05-2019, 08:54 PM   #456
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Emphasis on the "mad" in "mad genius. He may have been a genius and ahead of his time, but he was also a bit of a nightmare, and most of us were not sad to see him go.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, Nellie is one of the most fascinating paradoxes in all of sports. I don't know of anyone in sports history who was both universally recognized as one of the all-time greats, a genius, and an innovator, and who was also seen by those same people as a bit of a clown, and not taken very seriously.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdmDFJNnuA8
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Old 02-05-2019, 08:56 PM   #457
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Steven Seagal would be proud
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Old 02-05-2019, 11:07 PM   #458
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Dennis Smith Jr. went off for 25 points, six assists, five rebounds and two triples in 40 minutes of a 105-92 loss to Detroit on Tuesday.
That's a huge step forward after his rocky debut on Sunday. There are still plenty of red flags for DSJ as he hit 11-of-25 shots and 1-of-2 free throws with four turnovers, as those three categories have always dragged him down in category leagues. However, his counting stats should jump up considerably in New York, as he had a 33% usage rate tonight compared to his season average of 23%. It's pretty clear that this offense will be built around him the rest of the season.
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Old 02-05-2019, 11:23 PM   #459
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As if anybody here gives a damn. I predict that Porzingis, because of injuries, never lives up to his potential. That Doncic plateaus at an all-star level, but is never among the league's best players. That for the next 10 years that the Mavs knock around somewhere between the cellar and the 8th seed. And that most all of the posters here who are now saying that they love the trade, will claim that the knew all along that it was a terrible mistake.

In addition. I would add that landing Luka and Porzingis was STILL brilliant work by Donnie. It was the RIGHT decision even if it doesn't pan out. And if it does pan out that Dallas will be a championship contender for the next 10 to 15 years. This was a RISKY hit or miss move, but the kind of trade that a serious contender makes. Both Porzingis and Luka could be GREAT. We will just have to wait and see.
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Old 02-05-2019, 11:42 PM   #460
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Anyone see DSJ quote after his 25 points on 25 shots? Tim Mac retweeted it.

Basically sounds pissed he got shipped off and wants to face Dallas lol
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Old 02-06-2019, 12:04 AM   #461
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We all knew his counting stats would go up without the structure of RC's offense. It wasn't a fit for him. He can drive and kick but that's about it. He doesn't get ft's and hes overall still very inefficient. He could be a good player one day but if Luka never gets a single bit better DSJ might still not even reach that level at his peak.
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Old 02-06-2019, 12:28 AM   #462
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Anyone see DSJ quote after his 25 points on 25 shots? Tim Mac retweeted it.

Basically sounds pissed he got shipped off and wants to face Dallas lol
Inefficient stats
4 TOs
-14 (second worst on team for both games heís played)
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Old 02-06-2019, 12:59 AM   #463
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Anyone see DSJ quote after his 25 points on 25 shots? Tim Mac retweeted it.

Basically sounds pissed he got shipped off and wants to face Dallas lol
Wouldn't you be pissed to be shipped off to the worst run franchise in the last 20 years?
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Old 02-06-2019, 01:09 AM   #464
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Wouldn't you be pissed to be shipped off to the worst run franchise in the last 20 years?
He wanted out bad enough to fake an illness, he got what he wanted.
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Old 02-06-2019, 02:21 AM   #465
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I think with Stein background it's clear that KP signing long-term is not a foregone conclusion. Confident Mavs and Luka are able to make it happen, but still must sell org and future.
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Old 02-06-2019, 02:58 AM   #466
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It was definitely supposed to work. Antoine Walker was the point forward that Nellie had wanted.
They never intended to keep both of them. Jamison was brought in to be the starter, but then Walker fell into their laps. Jamison sucked it up and agreed to come off the bench for that season with the idea that he would eventually be the starter here or somewhere else. One of the biggest reasons Walker was such a good acquisition, was his expiring contract. At that time, Cuban was all about building through trades, and maximizing payroll, rather than having cap space. The fact that neither of them were here for more than a season should be a clue that they were more interested in the trade value of the players than their fit on the court.
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Old 02-06-2019, 03:38 AM   #467
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They never intended to keep both of them. Jamison was brought in to be the starter, but then Walker fell into their laps. Jamison sucked it up and agreed to come off the bench for that season with the idea that he would eventually be the starter here or somewhere else. One of the biggest reasons Walker was such a good acquisition, was his expiring contract. At that time, Cuban was all about building through trades, and maximizing payroll, rather than having cap space. The fact that neither of them were here for more than a season should be a clue that they were more interested in the trade value of the players than their fit on the court.
Specifically, the Walker deal allowed the Mavs to get rid of Raef LaFrentz' contract, which was easily one of the worst in the league. It then became EVEN worse that year when he suffered basically a career ending injury and only played a handful more games after that, and yet he was still one of the highest paid players in the league for several more years.

So the Walker deal was definitely a net positive long term, especially since we got Jason Terry out of it the next year. But short term, it really did suck. We basically punted a whole season of Dirk in his absolute prime. If I remember correctly, he was 26 that year.

I also always found it odd that in the Jamison deal, the Mavs didn't also get Dampier from GSW, or better yet Dampier INSTEAD of Jamison. A starting lineup of Nash/Finley/J-Howard/Dirk/Dampier absolutely would have been a title contender that year.
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Old 02-06-2019, 03:38 AM   #468
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"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Underdog again."
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Old 02-06-2019, 05:18 AM   #469
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Dennis Smith Jr. went off for 25 points, six assists, five rebounds and two triples in 40 minutes of a 105-92 loss to Detroit on Tuesday.
That's a huge step forward after his rocky debut on Sunday. There are still plenty of red flags for DSJ as he hit 11-of-25 shots and 1-of-2 free throws with four turnovers, as those three categories have always dragged him down in category leagues. However, his counting stats should jump up considerably in New York, as he had a 33% usage rate tonight compared to his season average of 23%. It's pretty clear that this offense will be built around him the rest of the season.
I'll assume that you watched the game, and aren't just going by a stat line.

Smith was also 2-9 on 3s. He can't shoot anything but a dunk or a layup, which feeds his indecisiveness offensively. Doesn't have a reliable 3, doesn't have a tear drop, only a shaky mid-range game. Which makes him dribble and feint, dribble and feint out on the perimeter, looking for a layup. At one point last night during the broadcast, you could clearly hear a fan yell "MOVE THE BALL!", while Smith was dribbling around holding the ball.

And you're right that it appears the NIX offense will feature him for the rest of the year in a role similar to Smith's rookie year with the Dallas-- roll the ball out on the floor, don't worry about winning, dribble, dribble some more, keep dribbling, look for a dunk, then chuck up a corkscrew 3. If all else fails, fling the ball toward anyone in a similar-colored jersey, and maybe you'll get an assist. It's like Starbury all over again.

MillsPerry are desperate to justify the bad trade they just made; they have instructed Fizzledale to give Smith all the burn, with Matthews and Jordan as training wheels, and to let him ring up big numbers, anything but Wins. No pressure, Dennis, just stats. Empty stats.

The MSG crowd was actually pretty responsive to some of Smith's layups last night, ooohing and aaahing. But Smith had better have a thick skin, because that short-term adulation can change to toxic flaming abuse in a New York minute---from the fans, and especially from the media. They will devour him bones and all, leaving not so much as a splinter when he ultimately fails to deliver.

Perhaps it will never come to that. NIX appear to be going Kevin-and-Kyrie-or-bust, and Kyrie ain't gonna be playing the 2. If NIX sign Kyrie, then Smith will become just another 'trade asset', fading into another desperately dumb MillsPerry trade, dribbling on to another team with his one-trick pony game.
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Old 02-06-2019, 07:26 AM   #470
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They never intended to keep both of them. Jamison was brought in to be the starter, but then Walker fell into their laps. Jamison sucked it up and agreed to come off the bench for that season with the idea that he would eventually be the starter here or somewhere else. One of the biggest reasons Walker was such a good acquisition, was his expiring contract. At that time, Cuban was all about building through trades, and maximizing payroll, rather than having cap space. The fact that neither of them were here for more than a season should be a clue that they were more interested in the trade value of the players than their fit on the court.
It was absolutely meant to work. The fact that it was a failure and Dirk wasn’t exactly thrilled should tell you why neither returned. To insinuate otherwise is silly. The prior year, the Mavs had made it to the WCF and lost in 6 without Dirk forpart of the series. They added Jamison and Walker thinking it would push them over the top... not thinking that it was simply a cap space move. Did the expect it to be a long term answer? No, but I guarantee you Nellie thought they had a championship team.

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Old 02-06-2019, 08:06 AM   #471
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Those picks are already wins -- they netted us two franchise players in Porzingis and Luka. We beat the house.

And as far as cap space; there are still plenty of opportunity for trades, and plenty of reasons for Barnes to opt out (way more teams with $$$ in 2019 than in 2020).

Seriously, don't overthink this.

Porzingis and Luka isnít enough in todayís league.
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Old 02-06-2019, 08:09 AM   #472
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Wouldn't you be pissed to be shipped off to the worst run franchise in the last 20 years?


Not only that but all heís hearing is how Kyrie and Durant are coming? Basically his future is that of a backup point guard for the time being.
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Old 02-06-2019, 09:53 AM   #473
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Porzingis and Luka isnít enough in todayís league.
of course its not but looks like they are going to be locked up for at least four years with a combined 40 million and we are going clear out our entire cap within two years.

Thats a great starting point.
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Old 02-06-2019, 10:29 AM   #474
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of course its not but looks like they are going to be locked up for at least four years with a combined 40 million and we are going clear out our entire cap within two years.

Thats a great starting point.
*cough* 52-54 mill *cough*

but yeah thats less than half the cap
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Old 02-06-2019, 10:32 AM   #475
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7-uhP85Xp4
Are Mavs becoming the new Knicks?
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Old 02-06-2019, 10:40 AM   #476
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*cough* 52-54 mill *cough*

but yeah thats less than half the cap
Doncic 7-10m the next three years
KPs max contract starts at 27m

So its less or around 40m until 2022

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Old 02-06-2019, 11:13 AM   #477
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A lot of good, solid points and opinions in here. One thing I'd just like to reiterate is it won't just be Luka and KP. Mavs will have a lot of cap space this off season and next to add another piece or two to the puzzle to make this team into a contender. As always, just have to wait and see if the big risk pays off.
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Old 02-06-2019, 11:26 AM   #478
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A lot of good, solid points and opinions in here. One thing I'd just like to reiterate is it won't just be Luka and KP. Mavs will have a lot of cap space this off season and next to add another piece or two to the puzzle to make this team into a contender. As always, just have to wait and see if the big risk pays off.
They'll only have a lot cap space this offseason if they move Barnes and Powell or if Barnes opts out.

Reeeeeally hope they move Barnes before the deadline, BUT he can still be moved in the offseason.
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Old 02-06-2019, 11:45 AM   #479
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Reports are the Kristaps is medically cleared to play, but they want to make sure he strengthens up to prevent further injuries. Not really sure you can prevent injuries, but I'll trust their process.
For joints like the ACL and shoulder, you work the muscles around the joint to make them stronger to help stabliize and support the joint. You can't strengthen the ACL, but you CAN strengthen everything around the knee.

Personally, I'm on board with this plan. It's a long term approach..sacrificing using him the rest of this year to reduce the risk of any injuries and letting him probably bulk up a bit in the process, to ensure he's at peak ability for training camp.
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Old 02-06-2019, 11:55 AM   #480
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Things are done so much differently now. My oldest brother missed about 10 weeks in high school with a torn ACL.. He missed the remainder of the football season but was back on the court for basketball... This was back in the mid to late 80's. It was healed well enough for him to win district in tennis..

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