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Old 02-14-2020, 11:19 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by SMC0007 View Post
Milwaukee, LA, Denver, Utah to name a few contenders that have size.
Yeah, their best players happen to be big. If their best players were wings, they would play them instead. But playing big players just because they happen to be big is not smart basketball anymore

No NBA team is going to stop using a system that is working to give minutes to a journeyman player

And our lack of defense is more of a function of the fact that we are a year (at least) ahead of schedule. The team will gell and become better defensively

And lets not forget that we're had a couple of duds. Wright was supposed to shore up our point guard defense and he's under-performed. We tried to get Green (twice). Apparently we tried to get Iggy. We have tried to get above average wing defenders

This season is a joy because we should have been 40 to 44 wins but we are better than that. Luka is amazing and KP is finally getting to where everyone wants him to be. DFS is much improved, Maxi rocks, and NOBODY expected THJ to be this good. Next year I hope for more improvement and afterwards, then maybe lightning will strike and we'll get a premium free agent

I'm not going to get worked up about a journeyman center's minutes. Not this season and probably not next season either
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Old 02-15-2020, 11:51 AM   #162
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Never averaged even 10 minutes per game for the Warriors



Of course Powell is a journeyman center. He's certainly not a star. He's not particularly valuable. There wasn't a line of teams vying to get his services during his free agency
Mic drop reference was for Powell being correctly id'd as journeyman center, more like situational backup journeyman imo.

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Old 02-15-2020, 11:53 AM   #163
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Who cares about size advantage? Its a dinosaur concept. The best way to win is to play your best players



Our defense is bad but our offense is amazing. The object of the game is to score more points than your opponent



I hate small ball too but that's the way the NBA is going. Why should we buck the trend?
Size doesn't matter? Yeah, give me a midget guard all day long over giant in the paint who can dunk a ball flat footed. /sarc

Not going to win jack without paint defense and rebounding.

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Old 02-15-2020, 11:59 AM   #164
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Yeah, their best players happen to be big. If their best players were wings, they would play them instead. But playing big players just because they happen to be big is not smart basketball anymore

No NBA team is going to stop using a system that is working to give minutes to a journeyman player

And our lack of defense is more of a function of the fact that we are a year (at least) ahead of schedule. The team will gell and become better defensively

And lets not forget that we're had a couple of duds. Wright was supposed to shore up our point guard defense and he's under-performed. We tried to get Green (twice). Apparently we tried to get Iggy. We have tried to get above average wing defenders

This season is a joy because we should have been 40 to 44 wins but we are better than that. Luka is amazing and KP is finally getting to where everyone wants him to be. DFS is much improved, Maxi rocks, and NOBODY expected THJ to be this good. Next year I hope for more improvement and afterwards, then maybe lightning will strike and we'll get a premium free agent

I'm not going to get worked up about a journeyman center's minutes. Not this season and probably not next season either
Their best players happen to be big because the GM built the team that way.
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Old 02-15-2020, 01:59 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Dallas41 View Post
His minutes with golden st always increased doing the playoffs and rightfully so because that's when you need post defense and rebounding the most.
1st season: reg- 9.6, po- 9.3

So, nope.

2nd season: reg- 9.5, po- 12.2

Almost 3 whole minutes.
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Old 02-15-2020, 04:24 PM   #166
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Size doesn't matter? Yeah, give me a midget guard all day long over giant in the paint who can dunk a ball flat footed. /sarc

Not going to win jack without paint defense and rebounding.
So you would rather have Adams over Westbrook? Whiteside more than Lillard? Wait you say, there is a massive talent difference there. Well yes there is. If there were more talented large players then it would be easy to build out a roster. But a lot of teams are bypassing playing less talented players just because of their size.

And you bring up rebounding. The Mavs are FOURTH in the league (ahead of the Lakers who use that super-effective bruiser McGee). One of the teams ahead of us is the Clipper who rarely use a true center at all. Zubac only plays around 18 min per game and he's the ONLY player above 6'8" on the team
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Old 02-15-2020, 04:51 PM   #167
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Their best players happen to be big because the GM built the team that way.
I'm pretty sure that Giannis wouldn't have lasted to pick number 15 if there wasn't some question as to whether he would develop

Jokic wasn't drafted until pick 41. I don't think the team was planning for him to be a superstar to build around

Siakam was 27th. Bam lasted to the 14th pick. Gobert was the 27th pick. Sabonis was #11

Yes if you have one of the top 3 picks then there is a greater than average chance to be able to pick a player that you can build around. Outside the top ten its a crapshoot and nobody can positively identify the building blocks of a future team

And of those six guys - four of them are proficient at shooting the 3
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Old 02-15-2020, 05:48 PM   #168
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I'm pretty sure that Giannis wouldn't have lasted to pick number 15 if there wasn't some question as to whether he would develop

Jokic wasn't drafted until pick 41. I don't think the team was planning for him to be a superstar to build around

Siakam was 27th. Bam lasted to the 14th pick. Gobert was the 27th pick. Sabonis was #11

Yes if you have one of the top 3 picks then there is a greater than average chance to be able to pick a player that you can build around. Outside the top ten its a crapshoot and nobody can positively identify the building blocks of a future team

And of those six guys - four of them are proficient at shooting the 3
I'm not talking about drafting. Almost all of them were re signed to big deals as key players. Davis also signed a big deal....and he isn't a 3pt threat. Bigs are in high demand even if they aren't perimeter threats especially if they are mobile and can defend\shot block.
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Old 02-15-2020, 06:32 PM   #169
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I'm not talking about drafting. Almost all of them were re signed to big deals as key players. Davis also signed a big deal....and he isn't a 3pt threat. Bigs are in high demand even if they aren't perimeter threats especially if they are mobile and can defend\shot block.
If you have a key player who happens to be a big then of course you keep them - I'm not understanding what you are trying to say. You would also keep a key player if he was a wing or a point guard too

You shape your roster around your best players. Davis is a great player and of course he was going to get a big deal. And you deal with their minuses by the role players (ie journeymen players). Or you make their strengths stronger with it. Luka is a great passer so having great shooters around him makes the team even stronger

And we do have a big who is mobile and can defend\shot block. And is a perimeter threat. His name is Porzingis in case you forgot. So why play another big who isn't better than other players on your roster? One who doesn't fit your style of play? WCS isn't better than Maxi either and Maxi fits our style of play perfectly. WCS isn't better than Curry and he certainly doesn't fit our style of play better

So why do you insist that the Mavs need to play him more? Journeyman players have to adapt to the system, not expect the system to adapt to them
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Old 02-15-2020, 07:15 PM   #170
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If you have a key player who happens to be a big then of course you keep them - I'm not understanding what you are trying to say. You would also keep a key player if he was a wing or a point guard too

You shape your roster around your best players. Davis is a great player and of course he was going to get a big deal. And you deal with their minuses by the role players (ie journeymen players). Or you make their strengths stronger with it. Luka is a great passer so having great shooters around him makes the team even stronger

And we do have a big who is mobile and can defend\shot block. And is a perimeter threat. His name is Porzingis in case you forgot. So why play another big who isn't better than other players on your roster? One who doesn't fit your style of play? WCS isn't better than Maxi either and Maxi fits our style of play perfectly. WCS isn't better than Curry and he certainly doesn't fit our style of play better

So why do you insist that the Mavs need to play him more? Journeyman players have to adapt to the system, not expect the system to adapt to them
My point is still opposing the idea that bigs are a dinosaur concept. I pointed out teams that are contenders and basically all of them are using 2 bigs, often.

Not saying you are wrong, but I'm not a fan of comparing different positions like Curry is better than Willie. He's better at shooting and dribbling, but not defending and rebounding.

I have expressed my opinion on why he should start a couple of times already. He has been productive in his minutes here. Surprisingly so. I wasn't a big fan of the trade because I didn't think he was good enough to bother and I felt like it was pointless unless Maxi goes down too. Something that forces Rick to play him. This 3 and 5 mins a game is pointless. Maxi is not that much better. I think he is adjusting to the system fine, it's not like he is running to the low block and calling for a pass or shooting bad shots. He is moving the ball well, defending and challenging shots. Idk what else he needs to do to get more time to prove himself.
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Old 02-16-2020, 12:30 AM   #171
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My point is still opposing the idea that bigs are a dinosaur concept. I pointed out teams that are contenders and basically all of them are using 2 bigs, often.
We play Porzingis 30 mpg and Maxi 25 mpg (Powell was 26 mpg) which was 80ish minutes. With WCS playing around 12 mpg we're still at 67ish minutes

In comparison, Denver plays Jokic 32 mpg and Plumlee 17 mpg. Porter Jr plays 14 mpg. 63ish minutes

Utah plays Gobert 34 mpg and Davis/Bradley about 21 mpg. 55ish minutes

The Clippers barely uses a big at all. Houston doesn't use one anymore

The idea that bigs are a dinosaur concept is real. There are some teams that still use it and are scary effective with it but very few teams are playing guys that are merely big. Skilled and big, yes. Just because they are big, no

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I wasn't a big fan of the trade because I didn't think he was good enough to bother and I felt like it was pointless unless Maxi goes down too.
Yep. I was ok with the trade but I didn't think WCS would get many minutes unless there was another injury
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Old 02-16-2020, 11:24 AM   #172
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I don't see WCS on this team next year but if he decides to stick around to be in an insurance role that would be fine.
This year's draft should be fairly rich with bigs in the 20-45 range and if there are no decent wings available it might be a good option to take a big with one of our picks in that range.

Some notable names potentially in that range:

Jalen Smith
Vernon Carey Jr.
Zeke Nnaji
Udoka Azubuike
Nick Richards
Omer Yurtseven
Austin Wiley

Sleeper:
Aleksej Pokusevski (seems like a perfect RC guy....7ft, great handles, good shooter, shot blocker, decent athleticism).

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Old 02-17-2020, 11:15 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by turin View Post
Size doesn't matter? Yeah, give me a midget guard all day long over giant in the paint who can dunk a ball flat footed. /sarc

Not going to win jack without paint defense and rebounding.

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You guys are waisting time debating with this guy.

I stopped responding the minute he said bigs are dinosaurs

Seems like anyone who has watched Utah and LA destroy us on the boards with our small ball lineups would understand your not winning those battles in the post season.

We don't have elite wing defenders like the clippers to make small ball work. Our wing defenders consist of guys like curry, Brunson, THJ and Wright that tandem is nice if your playing the likes of Washington or Atlanta when you don't have to get stops consistently

But those teams aren't going to the playoffs

The mavs are 4-12 vs west playoffs teams and quite a few of those games were decided because they just couldn't get any stops

One in particular was having DFS switch off on to Jokic on last defensive possession and he was just to small to contest that shot.

The Lakers meanwhile in one of their last games before the ASG was in the same situation late in a game and they were able to throw dwight Howard all over jokic to get late game stop while a.davis was defending J.Grant

So yes size does still matter even if your not playing all game with it.

You can still be strategic in the ways you use size to help you win games especially come playoff time.

Last edited by Dallas41; 02-17-2020 at 11:19 AM.
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Old 02-17-2020, 05:10 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Dallas41
I stopped responding the minute he said bigs are dinosaurs
>>>IF<<< your best players are bigs then play them of course. If they aren't then you are being crazy to play them because "that's the way it has always been". The game is moving away from the plodding defensive slugfest of the olden days towards a glorious time where skill is more important

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Originally Posted by Dallas41
Seems like anyone who has watched Utah and LA destroy us on the boards with our small ball lineups would understand your not winning those battles in the post season.
And you REALLY think WCS is going to stop them? OK

You did read that we play bigs more minutes than Denver OR Utah right? I can post it again if you need me to

We play Porzingis 30 mpg and Maxi 25 mpg (Powell was 26 mpg) which was 80ish minutes. With WCS playing around 12 mpg we're still at 67ish minutes

In comparison, Denver plays Jokic 32 mpg and Plumlee 17 mpg. Porter Jr plays 14 mpg. 63ish minutes

Utah plays Gobert 34 mpg and Davis/Bradley about 21 mpg. 55ish minutes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallas41
We don't have elite wing defenders like the clippers to make small ball work.
Wait. I thought small ball couldn't work

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallas41
Our wing defenders consist of guys like curry, Brunson, THJ and Wright that tandem is nice if your playing the likes of Washington or Atlanta when you don't have to get stops consistently

But those teams aren't going to the playoffs

The mavs are 4-12 vs west playoffs teams and quite a few of those games were decided because they just couldn't get any stops

One in particular was having DFS switch off on to Jokic on last defensive possession and he was just to small to contest that shot.

The Lakers meanwhile in one of their last games before the ASG was in the same situation late in a game and they were able to throw dwight Howard all over jokic to get late game stop while a.davis was defending J.Grant

So yes size does still matter even if your not playing all game with it.

You can still be strategic in the ways you use size to help you win games especially come playoff time.
Again if you think that WCS is going to win that defensive battle then you are completely right. I think he's got zero chance so our best chance to win is to have one of Howard or Davis trying to guard the perimeter. That's a matchup that favors us while the other is not
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Old 02-17-2020, 09:13 PM   #175
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The league is moving away from traditional centers. That is pretty much an indisputable fact. That doesn't mean bigs don't still have place in the league, but superstar bigs can't carry teams the way they once did.

The main question with WCS is whether he is here to replace Powell's role or Boban's role. I hope it's Powell, but I'm not gonna lie...I like KP at center. If the Mavs can get an athletic, defensive 4 alongside KP, then I can't complain. But I hope WCS CAN play that role. He'll have to work his ass off to earn it though. That's just usually the Rick way.
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Old 02-17-2020, 10:53 PM   #176
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The league is moving away from traditional centers. That is pretty much an indisputable fact. That doesn't mean bigs don't still have place in the league, but superstar bigs can't carry teams the way they once did.

The main question with WCS is whether he is here to replace Powell's role or Boban's role. I hope it's Powell, but I'm not gonna lie...I like KP at center. If the Mavs can get an athletic, defensive 4 alongside KP, then I can't complain. But I hope WCS CAN play that role. He'll have to work his ass off to earn it though. That's just usually the Rick way.
I haven't fully decoded how one gets in (or out of) Rick's rotation...but I'm almost certain there is more to it than simply working their ass off. You also gotta shoot 3s, Bru!
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Old 02-18-2020, 12:33 AM   #177
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What some people seem to be missing here is that RC's choices about who to play are not just his own preferences. It is also the case of other teams playing in a certain way so that he doesn't have a lot of options about playing/not playing certain players. Yes, of course, he could err more on the side of playing bigs in optimising his offensive-defensive formula, and there are certain situations in certain games when it is not clear that what you gain on offense is not worth what you lose on defense. Those are tough decisions and RC sometimes recognizes as much in his press conferences. Following the Utah game, for example, he didn't sound very religious to me when he was asked about going with a smaller line-up. He sounded like it was a tough decision, and on-balance, he decided what he decided, and accepted responsbility for that choice.

But when it comes to other teams playing in a certain way and leaving little options, think of Boban as an example. The fact that almost no other teams play traditional, big-man, Patrick-Ewing-type basketball, and the fact that Boban is simply not switchable on defense, means that his lack of mobility is easily exploited because most teams are geared precisely towards exploiting such "weaknesses". Most teams today are made to pray on that. That's how they approach basketball. That's the big reason (and not RC per se) why Boban doesn't get minutes. And keep in mind that Boban doesn't get minutes just in Dallas but in the NBA as a whole. That's why his career pretty much looks like that of a journeyman big.

People who do not see this are the true dinosaurs, and that includes plenty of former players currently working as "analysts" on ESPN who don't watch actual Dallas games, see KP scoring 12 points in a game, know that he's 7.3 unicorn, and then say: "Duh, he needs to post up more." To that RC would say yes, maybe he needs to post-up more, but in certain situations and against certain teams so that the weaknesses of the opposing team can be exploited (case in point was our last Rockets game when KP was posting Harden and Westbrook). And that is how RC sees the game: Exploit The Weaknesses of The Opposing Line-Up At All Times.

Some people here claim that you need to play your bigs to shore up your defense and thereby "force" the opposing team to adapt to your game. Play your game. Don't always match the opposition. Let the opposition match to you.

RC's philosophy is diametrically opposite. For him, you match the opposing team's line-up to exploit its weaknesses. And RC certainly ain't doing it Houston Rockets' way (i.e. eliminate bigs). He likes bigs and he wants to use bigs but they just need to satisfy two conditions to get big minutes. If they satisfy these conditions then they can be used in many, many situations to exploit the opposing team's weaknesses:

1. Can stretch the floor on offense, and
2. Are switchable on defense.

Boban sadly cannot do the latter and can therefore be used only in situations where sacrificing switchability on defense is not too costly because the other team cannot exploit it readily. WCS has greater promise because he looks extremely mobile for his size (switchable), and can in time perhaps even shoot 3s (which would make him "stretchable" on offense).

I like RC's philosophy for 2 reasons.

First, it is modern (i.e. works in the present-day NBA) and it is already showing great results. Nobody expected Dallas to have the season they are having (barring the injury problems to Luka and KP which have resulted in a diminished form and standing).

Second, and more importantly, RC's basketball is playoffs basketball and playoffs basketball is all about adjustments. It is not about playing one way. If you do that you run into a problem when the opposing team adjusts to you. Rather, you win by out-adjusting your opponent. The examples of that are, of course, everywhere in pretty much all years but I will just mention one - how Raptors beat Bucks last year by making an adjustment that Bucks just couldn't handle.

What this means, therefore, is that you may actually have a playoff series in which Boban and WCS get significantly greater minutes than during the regular season if that will successfully exploit the weaknesses of the opposition. Ironically, however, if and when that were to happen, many people here would still blame RC saying: "See, when you play Boban (or WCS) your defense/offense is better and you win. He should play more in the regular season!" They would continue to see basketball in a different way. And when you have a different philosophy to someone else, you can look at exactly the same thing as them, but see it completely differently.

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Old 02-18-2020, 09:29 AM   #178
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but I'm not gonna lie...I like KP at center.
Of course! That's what he is!
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Old 02-19-2020, 03:55 AM   #179
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What some people seem to be missing here is that RC's choices about who to play are not just his own preferences. It is also the case of other teams playing in a certain way so that he doesn't have a lot of options about playing/not playing certain players. Yes, of course, he could err more on the side of playing bigs in optimising his offensive-defensive formula, and there are certain situations in certain games when it is not clear that what you gain on offense is not worth what you lose on defense. Those are tough decisions and RC sometimes recognizes as much in his press conferences. Following the Utah game, for example, he didn't sound very religious to me when he was asked about going with a smaller line-up. He sounded like it was a tough decision, and on-balance, he decided what he decided, and accepted responsbility for that choice.

But when it comes to other teams playing in a certain way and leaving little options, think of Boban as an example. The fact that almost no other teams play traditional, big-man, Patrick-Ewing-type basketball, and the fact that Boban is simply not switchable on defense, means that his lack of mobility is easily exploited because most teams are geared precisely towards exploiting such "weaknesses". Most teams today are made to pray on that. That's how they approach basketball. That's the big reason (and not RC per se) why Boban doesn't get minutes. And keep in mind that Boban doesn't get minutes just in Dallas but in the NBA as a whole. That's why his career pretty much looks like that of a journeyman big.

People who do not see this are the true dinosaurs, and that includes plenty of former players currently working as "analysts" on ESPN who don't watch actual Dallas games, see KP scoring 12 points in a game, know that he's 7.3 unicorn, and then say: "Duh, he needs to post up more." To that RC would say yes, maybe he needs to post-up more, but in certain situations and against certain teams so that the weaknesses of the opposing team can be exploited (case in point was our last Rockets game when KP was posting Harden and Westbrook). And that is how RC sees the game: Exploit The Weaknesses of The Opposing Line-Up At All Times.

Some people here claim that you need to play your bigs to shore up your defense and thereby "force" the opposing team to adapt to your game. Play your game. Don't always match the opposition. Let the opposition match to you.

RC's philosophy is diametrically opposite. For him, you match the opposing team's line-up to exploit its weaknesses. And RC certainly ain't doing it Houston Rockets' way (i.e. eliminate bigs). He likes bigs and he wants to use bigs but they just need to satisfy two conditions to get big minutes. If they satisfy these conditions then they can be used in many, many situations to exploit the opposing team's weaknesses:

1. Can stretch the floor on offense, and
2. Are switchable on defense.

Boban sadly cannot do the latter and can therefore be used only in situations where sacrificing switchability on defense is not too costly because the other team cannot exploit it readily. WCS has greater promise because he looks extremely mobile for his size (switchable), and can in time perhaps even shoot 3s (which would make him "stretchable" on offense).

I like RC's philosophy for 2 reasons.

First, it is modern (i.e. works in the present-day NBA) and it is already showing great results. Nobody expected Dallas to have the season they are having (barring the injury problems to Luka and KP which have resulted in a diminished form and standing).

Second, and more importantly, RC's basketball is playoffs basketball and playoffs basketball is all about adjustments. It is not about playing one way. If you do that you run into a problem when the opposing team adjusts to you. Rather, you win by out-adjusting your opponent. The examples of that are, of course, everywhere in pretty much all years but I will just mention one - how Raptors beat Bucks last year by making an adjustment that Bucks just couldn't handle.

What this means, therefore, is that you may actually have a playoff series in which Boban and WCS get significantly greater minutes than during the regular season if that will successfully exploit the weaknesses of the opposition. Ironically, however, if and when that were to happen, many people here would still blame RC saying: "See, when you play Boban (or WCS) your defense/offense is better and you win. He should play more in the regular season!" They would continue to see basketball in a different way. And when you have a different philosophy to someone else, you can look at exactly the same thing as them, but see it completely differently.
This is why I like Boban on this team, I am a fan of the WCS trade, and the MKG signing, but I don't whine about them not being on the floor all times.
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Old 02-19-2020, 09:00 PM   #180
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I find it funny that some people here think that the Mavs can enforce their will and make other teams play big/small with the roster we have.

10-15mpg backups and borderline second-stringers like WCS aren't going to make teams adapt to us. Boban comes in to score some easy twos and the opposing team gets everything they want offensively (both inside and out), but that'll make the opponent go big for some reason? WCS comes in and helps our defense, but brings our offense to a standstill, but the opposing team will need to go big because? I don't get it.

Even KP who is supposed to be a star has been completely unable to take advantage of smaller players. In fact, he struggles more against teams that put small players on him, so when we play him (a 7'3" dude), other teams are actually incentivized to play small because they can take away his drive and get him to cough up the ball. The smaller player defends KP better and gives the opposing team the advantage on offense as well.

How exactly are we supposed to enforce our will on other teams with the roster we have? We have the best 6'8" PG to ever live, but the rest of the roster either plays small or isn't good enough to make the opponent match. It's sad but true.
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Old 02-19-2020, 09:14 PM   #181
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I find it funny that some people here think that the Mavs can enforce their will and make other teams play big/small with the roster we have.

10-15mpg backups and borderline second-stringers like WCS aren't going to make teams adapt to us. Boban comes in to score some easy twos and the opposing team gets everything they want offensively (both inside and out), but that'll make the opponent go big for some reason? WCS comes in and helps our defense, but brings our offense to a standstill, but the opposing team will need to go big because? I don't get it.

Even KP who is supposed to be a star has been completely unable to take advantage of smaller players. In fact, he struggles more against teams that put small players on him, so when we play him (a 7'3" dude), other teams are actually incentivized to play small because they can take away his drive and get him to cough up the ball. The smaller player defends KP better and gives the opposing team the advantage on offense as well.

How exactly are we supposed to enforce our will on other teams with the roster we have? We have the best 6'8" PG to ever live, but the rest of the roster either plays small or isn't good enough to make the opponent match. It's sad but true.
I disagree with this. Remember that KP is still finding his feet post-injury, literally and also in terms of adjusting to the system.

Watch this and count the number of set-plays (not accidental by-products of transition) that were called for KP and that involved him shooting from the outside. I counted exactly z e r o.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOYOX8F3Qmw
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Old 02-20-2020, 12:02 PM   #182
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I find it funny that some people here think that the Mavs can enforce their will and make other teams play big/small with the roster we have.

10-15mpg backups and borderline second-stringers like WCS aren't going to make teams adapt to us. Boban comes in to score some easy twos and the opposing team gets everything they want offensively (both inside and out), but that'll make the opponent go big for some reason? WCS comes in and helps our defense, but brings our offense to a standstill, but the opposing team will need to go big because? I don't get it.

Even KP who is supposed to be a star has been completely unable to take advantage of smaller players. In fact, he struggles more against teams that put small players on him, so when we play him (a 7'3" dude), other teams are actually incentivized to play small because they can take away his drive and get him to cough up the ball. The smaller player defends KP better and gives the opposing team the advantage on offense as well.

How exactly are we supposed to enforce our will on other teams with the roster we have? We have the best 6'8" PG to ever live, but the rest of the roster either plays small or isn't good enough to make the opponent match. It's sad but true.
Again, it's more about balance, solidifying weaknesses like defense. I don't think anyone is saying "well throw a bunch of bigs out there to dominate in the post."

I disagree that the offense comes to a standstill with WCS. I need to see more of him with Luka to get off the fence about that part.
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Old 02-20-2020, 12:33 PM   #183
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Again, it's more about balance, solidifying weaknesses like defense. I don't think anyone is saying "well throw a bunch of bigs out there to dominate in the post."

I disagree that the offense comes to a standstill with WCS. I need to see more of him with Luka to get off the fence about that part.
Yep

I haven't seen one bit of evidence that WCS bogs the offense down

But what I have seen in the games he's played is efficient offense dude actually had a streak of 12 straight FGA before missing a 3pt in that Kings game.

I've seen him defend on the perimeter, contest shots at the rim and run the floor quicker than any big I've ever seen in a mavs uniform.

So I'm not buying the idea that he bogs down the offense when he's essentially done everything that d.powell was doing on offense and bringing better rebounding/defense to the table.

I guess someone could argue that Powell was shooting 29% from 3 point range much better than WCS but then I'd say really your going to debate 29% 3 pt shooting

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Old 02-20-2020, 02:57 PM   #184
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The Mavs like WCS, or they wouldn't have traded for him. It's nobody's fault that Luka got hurt and was out for the entire stretch of games between the acquisition and the all star break.

There is probably a lot more that goes into acclimating a new player into the system than we realize, especially in the middle of a season.

I wish everyone would just be patient and nurture a hint of trust.
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Old 02-20-2020, 03:38 PM   #185
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The Mavs like WCS, or they wouldn't have traded for him. It's nobody's fault that Luka got hurt and was out for the entire stretch of games between the acquisition and the all star break.

There is probably a lot more that goes into acclimating a new player into the system than we realize, especially in the middle of a season.

I wish everyone would just be patient and nurture a hint of trust.
I'll guess we'll find out soon. Like, tomorrow...
I hope WCS gets some serious run.

Kind of weird we are off for what seems like forever and then have 4 games in 6 days.
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Old 02-20-2020, 03:38 PM   #186
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Yep

I haven't seen one bit of evidence that WCS bogs the offense down
I'm happy you haven't "seen one bit of evidence" for it, but...

we score 113 pts per 100 possessions with him on the court. We score 118 points per 100 with him off the court. He has the worst offensive efficiency on/off of any player on the Mavs roster this year (-5.4). We score way less efficiently with him out there. I mean it's early, but you say there isn't evidence...

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I've seen him defend on the perimeter, contest shots at the rim and run the floor quicker than any big I've ever seen in a mavs uniform.
He's a good floor runner and his defense is solid. The numbers prove that he can rebound.

Opponents only score 106 points per 100 when he's out there. We allow 113 points per possession when he's not playing. No one said he's bad defensively. Just that we don't score nearly as well.

Unfortunately we're a really slow team and don't benefit from the hustle on the break. His fullcourt hustle doesn't show up in his offensive stats.

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So I'm not buying the idea that he bogs down the offense when he's essentially done everything that d.powell was doing on offense and bringing better rebounding/defense to the table.
Actually no. Powell helped our offense score 119points per 100 possessions. Dude was incredible moving without the ball and setting screens. He was a net positive as well (118pp100 without him).

WCS is a better rebounder, though. You are right (32.4reb rating vs. Powell's 20.5)

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I guess someone could argue that Powell was shooting 29% from 3 point range much better than WCS but then I'd say really your going to debate 29% 3 pt shooting
Is anyone saying that? He's 25.6% on the year and I've heard basically no one saying that they like Powell for his three point shooting. Only that Rick wants offense and interruption of opposing defenses and Powell did that really well. WCS has yet to show that he can punish teams' defenses.

Again, I'm not saying WCS is bad. Just that he's limited. Every guy on our roster is extremely one-dimensional. WCS is a killer rebounder and defender. He just hasn't found a way to not make our offense way worse. Maybe he will with time. Boban is a huge firecracker who can score 18 points in a quarter, but he can't play heavy minutes and he has the worst defensive effiency on/off of anyone on the team. WCS can defend but not score. Boban can score, but our defense falls apart with him. We don't have that two-way player (yet) other than maybe KP who can score and block a few shots, but defense is more than just blocking the occasional shot.
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Old 02-20-2020, 05:20 PM   #187
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I'm happy you haven't "seen one bit of evidence" for it, but...

we score 113 pts per 100 possessions with him on the court. We score 118 points per 100 with him off the court. He has the worst offensive efficiency on/off of any player on the Mavs roster this year (-5.4). We score way less efficiently with him out there. I mean it's early, but you say there isn't evidence...

He has played 3 games with Luka. I'm not even sure of their minutes together but is it really fair to judge his fit offensively when our best player and facilitator is out the majority of his games?
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Old 02-20-2020, 06:41 PM   #188
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He has played 3 games with Luka. I'm not even sure of their minutes together but is it really fair to judge his fit offensively when our best player and facilitator is out the majority of his games?
To be fair, he's also played only 111minutes in 9 games with us.

Of those 111 minutes, only 11 minutes were with Doncic. The rest were with bench guys.

You're 100% right to bring that up.

He needs to produce like Powell in the minutes he's out there and he hasn't yet, but his stats are somewhat suspect and he hasn't been given a lot of chance to work with guys like Doncic. I don't think there's a lot of excuses-- you gotta show up in whatever minutes you are given, but he is playing with reserves and in limited minutes.
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Old 02-20-2020, 08:32 PM   #189
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To be fair, he's also played only 111minutes in 9 games with us.

Of those 111 minutes, only 11 minutes were with Doncic. The rest were with bench guys.

You're 100% right to bring that up.

He needs to produce like Powell in the minutes he's out there and he hasn't yet, but his stats are somewhat suspect and he hasn't been given a lot of chance to work with guys like Doncic. I don't think there's a lot of excuses-- you gotta show up in whatever minutes you are given, but he is playing with reserves and in limited minutes.
When he is 100% from the field in 11 or 12 shots combined with defense and rebounds yet somehow gets pulled after 3 minutes, I don't see how that's his fault. I also don't see how we can accurately measure his effectiveness until we try it. Being oddly jerked around the rotation is not uncommon with Rick. I just wish he would keep rolling with shit when it's working. Especially with newer pieces.
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Old 02-20-2020, 08:48 PM   #190
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The Mavs like WCS, or they wouldn't have traded for him. It's nobody's fault that Luka got hurt and was out for the entire stretch of games between the acquisition and the all star break.

There is probably a lot more that goes into acclimating a new player into the system than we realize, especially in the middle of a season.

I wish everyone would just be patient and nurture a hint of trust.
Rick Carlisle's way is very demanding. It requires people to know their roles precisely and to execute them accordingly both on offense and defense. That much is obvious. The key examples of that are Kleber, DFS, and DP (before he was injured). I mean Kleber and DFS can go whole games without basically putting a foot wrong. DP was there, especially right before his injury which is particularly devastating.

To expect a guy, pretty much any guy, unless a someone with an extreme bball IQ and efficiency (a veteran who knows what to execute and when or someone you basically build around like Luka), to walk into the team and get major minutes is just not realistic.

With that in mind, WCS has still shown great promise and utility. But people should not judge him and his usage versus teams like Sacramento who decide to go super small ball with a bunch of super sharp shooters that can catch fire at any moment. He will be underutilized in those situatoins and for a good reason.
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Old 02-20-2020, 10:03 PM   #191
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Rick Carlisle's way is very demanding. It requires people to know their roles precisely and to execute them accordingly both on offense and defense. That much is obvious. The key examples of that are Kleber, DFS, and DP (before he was injured). I mean Kleber and DFS can go whole games without basically putting a foot wrong. DP was there, especially right before his injury which is particularly devastating.

To expect a guy, pretty much any guy, unless a someone with an extreme bball IQ and efficiency (a veteran who knows what to execute and when or someone you basically build around like Luka), to walk into the team and get major minutes is just not realistic.

With that in mind, WCS has still shown great promise and utility. But people should not judge him and his usage versus teams like Sacramento who decide to go super small ball with a bunch of super sharp shooters that can catch fire at any moment. He will be underutilized in those situatoins and for a good reason.
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Old 02-20-2020, 10:23 PM   #192
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There's a big difference between major minutes and >5 minutes. No one is suggesting major minutes. Half the people would probably stop commenting about it if he wasn't planted on the bench in the middle of a hot streak, Or not used when we are getting abused by other bigs. If he is sucking then by all means bench him. We don't want him being shoehorned into the rotation just because we traded for him if it isn't productive anymore than we want to see small ball.

What I'd like to test run for a bit is Luka,THJ, DFS, KP, WCS. I enjoy all the points, but I'm looking for more balance on both ends. If it doesn't work then insert Maxi back in.
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Old 02-20-2020, 10:28 PM   #193
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Rick Carlisle's way is very demanding. It requires people to know their roles precisely and to execute them accordingly both on offense and defense. That much is obvious. The key examples of that are Kleber, DFS, and DP (before he was injured). I mean Kleber and DFS can go whole games without basically putting a foot wrong. DP was there, especially right before his injury which is particularly devastating.

To expect a guy, pretty much any guy, unless a someone with an extreme bball IQ and efficiency (a veteran who knows what to execute and when or someone you basically build around like Luka), to walk into the team and get major minutes is just not realistic.

With that in mind, WCS has still shown great promise and utility. But people should not judge him and his usage versus teams like Sacramento who decide to go super small ball with a bunch of super sharp shooters that can catch fire at any moment. He will be underutilized in those situatoins and for a good reason.
We'll see how Rick views WCS after the ASB -- dude had a bit more practice, a bit more time to figure things out.
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Old 02-20-2020, 10:34 PM   #194
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We'll see how Rick views WCS after the ASB -- dude had a bit more practice, a bit more time to figure things out.
Did they even practice? Luka has been gone and KP was in Mexico. I figured everyone took a bit of time off.
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Old 02-20-2020, 11:12 PM   #195
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Did they even practice? Luka has been gone and KP was in Mexico. I figured everyone took a bit of time off.
Iím not positive, but I think players reported back yesterday for practice.
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Old 02-21-2020, 10:52 AM   #196
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Iím not positive, but I think players reported back yesterday for practice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGDBR2L5kzI
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Old 02-21-2020, 11:07 AM   #197
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Maybe they practiced, maybe they didn't. The overall point some are making is that it takes time to get someone involved and up to speed with the rest of the team. I'd think it's pretty obvious that the coach of a PROFESSIONAL basketball team doesn't fancy the idea of PRACTICING during actual games in front of fans and on tv.
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Old 02-21-2020, 12:59 PM   #198
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Maybe they practiced, maybe they didn't. The overall point some are making is that it takes time to get someone involved and up to speed with the rest of the team. I'd think it's pretty obvious that the coach of a PROFESSIONAL basketball team doesn't fancy the idea of PRACTICING during actual games in front of fans and on tv.
Maybe some guys need more time than others but I recall THJ playing right away following the trade with NY last year. He must have learned the playbook really quick and he was considered by most mavs favs a backup SG that just so happen to be a starter on the poor Knicks

I really don't see much difference between WCS and THJ in terms of the requirements to get minutes after a trade doing mid season especially since both players were previous starters elsewhere
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Old 02-21-2020, 02:01 PM   #199
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Maybe they practiced, maybe they didn't. The overall point some are making is that it takes time to get someone involved and up to speed with the rest of the team. I'd think it's pretty obvious that the coach of a PROFESSIONAL basketball team doesn't fancy the idea of PRACTICING during actual games in front of fans and on tv.
So then what's the excuse of pulling him from a game that he's doing great and never getting him back in, while getting doubled up on rebounding and killed in the pnr?

I'm not trying to destroy Rick here but you have to admit some of his choices are puzzling. Then after a lot of these games he admits it was on him. I appreciate taking responsibility but maybe let's not keep repeating the same types of mistakes. Mistakes are going to happen but let's make different ones.
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Old 02-21-2020, 02:36 PM   #200
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Assuming that the coach is unaware of what you guys notice doesn't seem plausible to me. What does seem plausible is that there are other, less obvious considerations being balanced against the ones fans notice, and that a calculated decision is made, for better or worse.

Since we're not involved behind the scenes, where the preparation, teaching and planning occurs, we simply won't understand everything they do.

The way to judge the team is pretty simple, however: Win/loss record. Since the Mavs' win total has already matched what they accomplished for the entire last season without playing a single post-all star break game, I think it's safe to declare that the majority of what their head coach has done to this point has been successful.
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