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Old Today, 02:42 AM   #4241
Melonhead
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Originally Posted by AO41 View Post
I just wanted to go through some highlights on Adams to see if I have been missing something on him or if he looks slow. I just started watching this and I get it they are positive HIGHLIGHTS....but he just destroyed Davis multiple times in the first 40 seconds.


We can talk about some of the measure/ metrics but the guy is a beast.

Give me Adams any time.

https://youtu.be/iSSER0kSw3U
Anyone watching this canít say heís slow and immobile. He does well offensively and could pick and roll well. Man I wish Mavs would go get him
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Old Today, 05:42 AM   #4242
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Originally Posted by Melonhead View Post
Anyone watching this canít say heís slow and immobile. He does well offensively and could pick and roll well. Man I wish Mavs would go get him
Feel free to bring that argument to the new thread on that subject.
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Old Today, 08:27 AM   #4243
Jack.Kerr
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Originally Posted by tap2390 View Post
The metric is points per possession allowed defending the pick and roll, my source is the Ringer, here:

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/4...m-jerami-grant

I really do understand Adams talent, heís great on the glass, and pick and roll offense. If we wanted someone like that we should have outbid the Celtics for Kanter at $5 million per game. We got Boban for $3.5 million a year. If youíre going to be paying Steven Adams $25 million a year for two years knowing that in most crunch situations youíre either putting Maxi + KP or KP + Dwight out there, you better get a pick too.
Thanks for your reply, and for providing the link. I read the article, and I think the article itself is mis-thought, but also being misinterpreted. This is your post that I responded to.

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Originally Posted by tap2390 View Post
No thanks to Steven Adams. Heís very likable and super tough, but he is in the 6th percentile when it comes to defending the pick-and-roll. He was absolutely exposed in the playoffs and you canít pay a guy like that $20+ million in the dynamic duo age of the NBA. Now if the Thunder are giving up a first round pick as well, I listen. Adams expires before Lukaís max will go into effect and therefore make us players in 2021 free agency.
This is the point that the article makes regarding Adams defending the P&R:

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The Blazers can put Adams in the pick-and-roll and get an open shot anytime they want. Heís in the 6th percentile of defenders on that play in the playoffs, giving up 1.19 points per possession.
It's a misapplication of a metric to limit it to one playoff series versus a hot-shooting Lilliard and McCollum duo who were exploiting the P&R; but it is a gross distortion to give the impression that Adams was one of the worst P&R defenders all season long. He wasn't.

Also, the blogger points out that Utah's DPOY Rudy Gobert was encountering the same issue and similar results in a series against the Rockets. I don't think I'd use the results from one series to argue against acquiring Gobert either.

Further, the comparison with Kanter, even making a 'value' point, is off-base.
Adams and Kanter are such different players that I wouldn't make any comparison at all. Kanter, in addition to being a world-class headache, IS one of the worst defenders in the league (no elevation, no lateral movement, no effort, even). He has about one and a half offensive moves (quick reverse spin from the right block (preferred)), and zero outside shot. He was an opportunistic producer offensively when paired with KP when they were together on the NYKs (putbacks and dump-offs), with KP drawing all defensive eyes. I think people make the same mistake of looking at Kanter's anomalous production against OKC in one playoff series, and think that's his norm; it's not. Kanter exhibits NONE of the defensive attributes that would motivate a team like the Mavericks to pursue a player like Adams. Kanter belongs nowhere in this conversation.

Similarly, comparing Adams to a player like Dwight Powell seems misguided. I have certainly appreciated Powell's efforts last season, so you won't hear me trashing him; but I always saw him as a valuable reserve (7th or 8th man), not a starter. Also, comparing Powell's production last year (in a tank year, after the trade for KP) to Adams' production on a playoff team, on a 36mpg projection also seems pointless.

If the choice is Powell at $11M versus Adams at $25M, I take Adams every time, without hesitation. Powell and Adams are in categorically different classes in terms of natural ability, and Adams is actually a couple of years younger. Talent generally wins out in the NBA, so when you get an opportunity to acquire top-tier talent, go for the talent. You might like to see it come at less of a price, but talent comes at a premium, and talented BIGs come at an additional premium.

The caveat in this case is availability. Would OKC trade Adams? Would OKC trade Adams to a division rival? Are they doing a total roster demolition? The article referenced above was written back in April while the playoff series v. Portland was still ongoing. It was written from the perspective of: 1) how to get back into the series; and 2) what kind of players would complement Westbrook. Westbrook is now gone. George preceded him. Paul wants out. If a player like Adams can be acquired as a team's roster is being dismantled, I would hope that Cuban and Nelson would bite the bullet and at least make an offer, rather than trying to play Smartest Guys in the Room, and wait for something cheap to come along.
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Old Today, 11:34 AM   #4244
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If a player like Adams can be acquired as a team's roster is being dismantled, I would hope that Cuban and Nelson would bite the bullet and at least make an offer, rather than trying to play Smartest Guys in the Room, and wait for something cheap to come along.
First, well thought and articulate post...

But this Is the rub. Cuban is always playing smartest guy in the room and I donít think him and Nelson alone would convince themselves enough that Adams would greatly help this team. An outsider such as KP or Luka might have to nudge them, if even possible.
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Old Today, 11:55 AM   #4245
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Adams is 2019-2020's Erick Dampier. You trade for him and his 53 million dollar contract and you, in theory, address an issue that you had (rebounding), but you do so by taking on a bloated contract for a guy who really doesn't have a place in the NBA anymore. Adams is a fossil of another era. The NBA is going away from slow, plodding centers with only one skill. The only really effective centers in the league are centers with at least one other elite skill.

All you have to do is look at what teams had success in the playoffs and you can see that being a big, rebounding guy in the center clogging up the middle isn't enough. You have to have at least one other elite skill to stay on the floor.

Traditional centers
Spurs - Poeltl - Couldn't make it in the playoffs. Spurs out in the first round.
Blazers - Kanter - (only played because of the Nurkic injury. Outplayed Adams). Conference finals.
Oklahoma - Adams - first round exit. Only averaged 12-7 with a FT% of 37.5%. Was outplayed by Kanter. OKC out in first round.
Utah - Gobert - first round exit
Brooklyn - Allen - first round exit

Elite passing
Denver - Jokic - second round
Toronto - Gasol - won the championship
Portland - Nurkic - was injured, but would have gotten them to the next level.

Offense/shooting
Philadelphia - Embiid - second round
Milwaukee - Lopez - conference finals (three point shooting, mostly)
Orlando - Vucevic - first round exit

Mobile defenders who can switch/defend multiple positions
Houston - Capela - second round
Boston - Horford - second round
Warriors - Green - went to finals

I don't think he's anywhere near as bad as 44th among centers in rebounding as the advanced stats would say. The Thunder were 7th in rebounding percentage as a team so Adams can't be that bad and his stats are brought down by playing with other good rebounders. He's just not a super-elite rebounder as people have suggested and even if he was, the era of Erick Dampier and DeAndre Jordan (4th among centers in rebound rate) is over. Adams is not mobile. He's not an elite (or even a good) passer. He's not able to hit a three (or even a mid-range jumper). He has no other skills while he lacks a fundamental skill (FT shooting).

KP is going to be a nightmare for opposing players, but he's going to introduce even more defensive strain to our lineup and we'll need mobile defenders next to him to be able to defend the perimeter. Getting Adams (and even Vuc) would have us playing two highly immobile players together and that just doesn't work in the NBA of 2019-2020. Adams is barely better than Powell (who himself is barely passable as a one-dimensional roll-man), who we already have for 15million dollars less.
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Old Today, 12:51 PM   #4246
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I like Adams, but let's assume for the moment that a deal that brings him to the Mavs is not going to happen. So, where else is there an opportunity? A recurrent issue that has been brought up, is the Mavs only really have two starters (KP and Luka). The C position has been debated extensively and there is certainly a group of posters that believe a stretch 5 is what is needed (and perhaps what the MBT is looking for). There is also a strong need for a defensive minded SF that can reliably get a few rebounds and be a threat from beyond the arc. Below is a proposed four-way trade with the Mavs, Hornets, Heat, and Thunder involved:

Mavs send THJ to Charlotte and Lee to OKC
OKC sends Paul to the Heat
Heat send Olynyk to the Mavs and Dragic + Winslow to OKC
Hornets send Nic Batum + draft pick to the Mavs.

So, why do the Mavs take on what many pundits call the worst contract in the NBA (Batum)? I think you consider it because while there is absolutely no doubt Nic is overpaid, he is not worthless and actually fills several of the Mavs deficiencies. Indeed, he might fit perfectly with the Mavs for the next two years (duration of his horrendous contract). First, Batum plays very good/excellent defense. Not elite level, but he still routinely defends the best opponent wing. He also shoots above average from beyond the arc, shooting - close to 40% last season. He is a facilitator on offense, with apg consistently between 3-4 (several seasons over 5 apg). He also collects a respectable number of rebounds (career 5.3). But most of all, he has been a consistent starter at the 3 (and 2), plays off the ball, would provide veteran leadership, and be a positive locker room guy. His contract is ridiculous, but it is only for two more years (same as THJ). The point to Batum would be while he has a bad contract, his skillset fits better with the Mavs than what we have in THJ. That skillset may be worth the extra $7M per year when you are under the luxury tax.

Olynk has also played in a starting role (although I think he would come off the bench for the Mavs) and would be another threat from the 3 point line. He will get you 4-5 rebounds per game, play good defense, and compliment Powell's and Bobi's strengths.

I am not sure how much these two would contribute in terms of "additional wins" (net positive, but not sure how to predict that), but I do think they would fit well with the Carlisle system, provide some veteran stability, and most importantly be beneficial to the continuing development of Luka and KP. I see them both as heady players that will know how to make a contribution to the team and defer to the two stars. Both are on two year contracts, so they become assets at the TDL. I believe overall team defense, 3 point shooting, and rebounding are improved if you make the trade.

Four-way trades are nearly impossible to pull off, but there may be more than one-way to skin a cat.
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Old Today, 01:20 PM   #4247
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@bobbykaralla: We have a little more clarity on the Mavs-Grizz trade involving Delon Wright thanks to @RealGM. Mavs are reportedly sending Portland's 2021 2nd and the less favorable 2023 2nd round pick belonging to Dallas and Miami.

@bobbykaralla: Dallas will have its own first-rounder this season, as well as the more favorable of GSW/Houston's 2nd (suddenly potentially a much better pick now) and Utah's 2nd. The Mavs' own 2nd is going to Philly as the final part of the 2017 Nerlens Noel trade.
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