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Old 05-29-2008, 04:51 PM   #201
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I thought the term "spiritually married" was established earlier in this thread to mean "married" --- but not legally married because polygamy is illegal. no?

as far as the timing of illegality... yes, I'm sure it wasn't a coincidence. But that happens with absurd "legacy laws" .. they hang around on the books until changing them becomes relevent (like, say, when an isloated compound of people starts marrying 14 year old girls to 50 year old men).

Performing oral sex was illegal in my home state of Virgina until 2 years ago... and the only reason someone bothered to change the law was that a woman who for years was the beneficiary of oral treatment without reciprocating had the gal to demand custody and increased alimony based on the demonstrated lawbreaking of her husband during the time of her marriage... and you know what? the law supported her contention.

(This story is pure classical tragedy... not only did this selfish person go for years taking taking taking without giving back in return... then she manages to USE THAT SELFISH FACT FOR MORE GAIN!!??? If the greek tragedy motif plays itself out to its logical conclusion this woman better watch out.... clearly there is going to be a safe full of alimony payments dropping out of a 3rd story window onto her head, or some other similar just deserts.

THESE are the sorts of serious moral issues that can get MY blood flowing))



Once an oudated law ACTUALLY starts to cause problems lawmakers have some impetus to change it.
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Old 05-29-2008, 04:55 PM   #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexamenos
being "sealed" and "celestial marriage" and "spiritual marriage" are all synonyms, as near as I can tell, and on the subject of celestial marriages and the LDS I find this quote:



do you get that? according to orthodox mormon thinking, a woman can get "married" more than once but only after she's dead. tell me that "married" here means "go see a judge and then have sex in a hotel."

if orthodox mormons are this wacky, imagine how much wackier they are out on the ranch.
they are not synonomyns. My understanding (from a mormon friend a couople of years ago) is that a morman can get married several times (say if their spouse dies)... but once they are DEAD they are still "sealed" to their original spouse, in essense married forever in the after life, but they are NOT sealed to the subsequent spouses.
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Old 05-29-2008, 05:00 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by alexamenos

in not-so-coincidental news....

bearing in mind that this is the same group that didn't consider driver's licenses and birth certificates and bishop's records sufficient evidence to determine the ages of 25 young ladies....

the 3rd Court reversed the decision on 38 specific cases where the children and parents were clearly identified. according to the 3rd Court, the problems with the State's case in these cases was (1) the abject lack of any evidence of physical or sexual abuse, (2) the very wrong and unlawful insistence that a belief system is tantamount imminent danger, and (e) the failure to follow the laws regarding the removal of children from parents as stipulated by the legistature of the State of Texas.

how to say this????

the 3rd Court's ruling was a unanimous (3-0) decision -- something of an ass-kicking, iow....what the 3rd court basically said to the the lower court (and indirectly, the CPS) was "you guys are idiots. not only are you making a mockery of the legal system, but you're making a mockery of kangaroo courts too."

the State knows it has no case according to the law, so it's seeking to influence the courts by cranking up the heat from public opinion....

.....justice, schmustice.....it's all about the mob rule, baby, and the state is very adept at playing this game.


Is the CPS acting like the Gestapo? Yep. But the fact that the CPS appealed the case shouldn't be a cause for FURTHER alarm. It should be expected, and routine, given that the CPS believes in the rightness of their position.

And the fact that the lower court was unanimous shouldn't alter the CPS pov, but instead it should make us aware that the CPS was essentially tilting at windmills in prolonging this quest to steal these kids. A stupid PR game of trying to tar-and-feather in the court of public opinion, but doomed to fail.

If these people flee? The CPS sees it as a major calamity. But to me, if they get away from the Gestapo, more power to them.

PS - SUPREME COURT ALREADY AFFIRMED THE LOWER COURT OPINION. SLAMMED THE DOOR SHUT ON THE CPS, QUICKLY.
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Old 05-29-2008, 06:47 PM   #204
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I'm glad the Texas Supreme Court is still a court of law. The lowest courts that supported the CPS are no better than Judge Judy on TV.

Again, I will repeat that I do not support the FLDS and their methods and their doctrines and their ploy to avoid the polygamy laws by not getting legally married.

But, I do support the Appeals Court and the Texas Supreme Court for supporting the strict law as it is written.
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Old 05-29-2008, 06:52 PM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcsluggo
I thought the term "spiritually married" was established earlier in this thread to mean "married" --- but not legally married because polygamy is illegal. no?

as far as the timing of illegality... yes, I'm sure it wasn't a coincidence. But that happens with absurd "legacy laws" .. they hang around on the books until changing them becomes relevent (like, say, when an isloated compound of people starts marrying 14 year old girls to 50 year old men).

Performing oral sex was illegal in my home state of Virgina until 2 years ago... and the only reason someone bothered to change the law was that a woman who for years was the beneficiary of oral treatment without reciprocating had the gal to demand custody and increased alimony based on the demonstrated lawbreaking of her husband during the time of her marriage... and you know what? the law supported her contention.

(This story is pure classical tragedy... not only did this selfish person go for years taking taking taking without giving back in return... then she manages to USE THAT SELFISH FACT FOR MORE GAIN!!??? If the greek tragedy motif plays itself out to its logical conclusion this woman better watch out.... clearly there is going to be a safe full of alimony payments dropping out of a 3rd story window onto her head, or some other similar just deserts.

THESE are the sorts of serious moral issues that can get MY blood flowing))



Once an oudated law ACTUALLY starts to cause problems lawmakers have some impetus to change it.
Ah, McSluggo, be careful. You may get what you want...

If the laws are rewritten to make it illegal to have more than one "spiritual wife", then what is the difference legally for a man to have a mistress? The man with a wife and a mistress is no different LEGALLY from a man with a legally married wife and a "spiritual wife".

If the laws are re-written, then Magic Johnson convicted himself of polygamy when he wrote in his book that he had sex with about 10,000 women...
Heck, Magic Johnson makes Brigham Young look impotent...

How many people reading this thread are guilty of polygamy if the laws are changed to say that a person having sex with more than one person is guilty of polygamy?
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Old 05-29-2008, 08:27 PM   #206
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i think you misread my post.

I haven't come out for or aginst anti-polygamy laws.... I merely said that the term "spiritual wife" seems to have arrived as a means to avoid the polygamy laws.

I am, however, 100% against 50 year old men marrying 14 year girls.


(and in a COMPLETELY unrelated matter... I am also 100% against anti-oral sex laws... do NOT blend the two positions!!!!! they are oil and vinegar)

and for what it is worth, I have been faithfully monogamous for 21 years... so even the law that you threatened wouldn't affect me much (though i WOULD be against it, nonetheless)
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Old 05-29-2008, 08:35 PM   #207
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There is already a law against a man having sex with a 14 year old girl. It is the statutory rape law. There is already a law against a man having a 14 year old "spiritual wife". It is the statutory rape law. The "spiritual wife" is not a legally married wife and so the statutory rape law applies since they are not legally married.

So, what law did you want to change?
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Old 05-29-2008, 08:37 PM   #208
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And, I'm glad that you are monogamous, McSluggo. I am too. Many on this board are quite moralistic and faithful to their one spouse. I wasn't accusing you of anything.
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Old 05-29-2008, 08:56 PM   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmbwinn
There is already a law against a man having sex with a 14 year old girl. It is the statutory rape law. There is already a law against a man having a 14 year old "spiritual wife". It is the statutory rape law. The "spiritual wife" is not a legally married wife and so the statutory rape law applies since they are not legally married.

So, what law did you want to change?
Hey now...If they are both in agreeance, what's the diff? I mean why shouldn't they be allowed to marry, everyone else seems to think they can, in fact it's now become a "right" to marry anyone and anything.

What's an arbitrary 14year age limit when there are civil rights at stake?
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Old 05-29-2008, 09:26 PM   #210
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dude, that will be the next case heard by the CA Supreme Court...
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Old 05-30-2008, 10:44 AM   #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcsluggo
I thought the term "spiritually married" was established earlier in this thread to mean "married" --- but not legally married because polygamy is illegal. no?
i don't think this is correct -- the notion of "spiritual marriage" amongst mormons seems to have theological rather than legal roots. and in other religions it has a distinctly non-legal meaning:

Quote:
Spiritual marriage comes from the idea of "love without sex." It is a practice in which a man and a woman live intimately without having any sexual relationship. It has been known throughout all cultures as a bond of a man and a woman with its only reason being the spiritual connection between the two and nothing more. Spiritual marriage is the ultimate singular relationship.
there's also a notion of "spiritual wivery", which has a decidedly hedonist flavor and i don't think it applies here very well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcsluggo
My understanding (from a mormon friend a couople of years ago) is that a morman can get married several times (say if their spouse dies)... but once they are DEAD they are still "sealed" to their original spouse, in essense married forever in the after life...
As I understand it, the distinction your mormon friend makes is the distinction between being legally (physically) married and spiritually married....

which is my point...I suspect (ie, it seems but i'm not certain) that there is a distinction between "spiritual marriage" and "marriage marriage'. I don't know that a "spiritual marriage" does not include physical consummation, but it seems to me that a spiritual marriage is inherently about being sealed in the after-life. this little theological tidbit needs to be taken into consideration next time some CPS agent says that 'little janie so-and-so says she's been taught that girls can and should get spiritually married as soon as possible.'
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Old 05-30-2008, 10:47 AM   #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmbwinn
...If the laws are re-written, then Magic Johnson convicted himself of polygamy when he wrote in his book that he had sex with about 10,000 women...
Heck, Magic Johnson makes Brigham Young look impotent...
and this is why I say that religious persecution is intrinsic to this whole thing -- when it's fundamentalist mormons we say it's polygamy and illegal, when it's an old hedonist living in a mansion with 3 hot young blondes we call it reality television.

The double standard could not be more stark.
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Old 05-30-2008, 10:55 AM   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcsluggo
and the only reason someone bothered to change the law was that a woman who for years was the beneficiary of oral treatment without reciprocating had the gal to demand custody and increased alimony based on the demonstrated lawbreaking of her husband during the time of her marriage... and you know what? the law supported her contention.

(This story is pure classical tragedy... not only did this selfish person go for years taking taking taking without giving back in return... then she manages to USE THAT SELFISH FACT FOR MORE GAIN!!??? If the greek tragedy motif plays itself out to its logical conclusion this woman better watch out.... clearly there is going to be a safe full of alimony payments dropping out of a 3rd story window onto her head, or some other similar just deserts.

THESE are the sorts of serious moral issues that can get MY blood flowing))
this is why i say that wife-beating is underrated.
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Old 05-30-2008, 01:44 PM   #214
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an interesting comment following the Supreme Court's ruling:

Quote:
''If anything good can come out of all the suffering endured by these 400+ children, it is that maybe the rest of the country got a wake-up call. Texas CPS kept saying it themselves: 'All this was standard operating procedure, it's how we treat all families.'

And in that respect, almost every state is Texas. Aside from the sheer size of the endeavor, and those first days at CPS' kiddie-Guantanamo, nothing happened to these families that doesn't happen to hundreds of thousands of families every year. (And, in fact, even the interning of children in ''shelters'' in the first days after placement is not unusual). But the families to whom this normally happens are overwhelmingly poor and disproportionately minority. They rarely have good legal representation. And everything happens in secret.

So nobody knows about it, and we can pretend it doesn't happen. Maybe this case has stripped away the pretense and shown the nation how most CPS agencies work most of the time. Maybe people will start to question what's going on in the other 49 states, and demand real change.''

Richard Wexler, executive director, National Coalition for Child Protection Reform, Virginia.
"nothing happened to these families that doesn't happen to hundreds of thousands of families every year" -- frightening.
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Old 05-30-2008, 02:30 PM   #215
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I said in a previous post that I have seen kids taken by CPS for less.... It has happened to two of my siblings, where no abuse whatsoever was present, and religion was uninvolved. In both cases, the kids are back with their parents now. CPS's justification for taking the kids was there "might" be a danger.
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Old 05-30-2008, 02:55 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by jefelump
I said in a previous post that I have seen kids taken by CPS for less.... It has happened to two of my siblings, where no abuse whatsoever was present, and religion was uninvolved. In both cases, the kids are back with their parents now. CPS's justification for taking the kids was there "might" be a danger.
i now see what you're saying.....

....the tactics the cps uses are "ministry of justice" like.....

CPS:
Quote:
We've got your kids, wanna see them again? Just sign-off on this 'family reunification plan', step 1 of which is where you admit you're a horrible and abusive parent, and you agree to seek psychiatric help to mend your unstable ways. Not comfortable with admitting your an emotionally unstable, abusive parent? Then you're not cooperating and this is evidence of need to take your children...looks like we need a restraining order to keep you in check....
it's the parental equivalent of 1984....
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Old 05-30-2008, 04:02 PM   #217
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And in my experience, CPS didn't step in to protect children when they should have, or they returned children to terrible situations.

That was years ago though, so maybe all of this is part of a pendulum swing back the other way? Either way, it's a crying shame that children suffer for it.

But are any of us going to do anything useful about the children caught in the middle? How many foster parents, CPS agents or Court Appointed Special Advocates do we know?

Is my inaction any less destructive than their poor actions?
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Old 05-30-2008, 05:49 PM   #218
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A friend of mine was going through a divorce and child custody battle several years ago, and he told his attorney he wanted to call CPS on his ex, because of suspected drug abuse. The attorney said, "Don't waste your time. The CPS always gets involved where they shouldn't, and rarely gets involved where they should."
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Old 06-02-2008, 02:23 AM   #219
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Old 06-02-2008, 09:18 AM   #220
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guilty until proven innocent...or maybe just guilty.....

Quote:
Judge's order will delay reunification of FLDS families

SAN ANGELO, Texas (KXAN) .....

Friday, a district judge in San Angelo refused to sign a court order releasing the children until 38 mothers agreed to state implemented restrictions.

The judge literally wants every parent and every member of the Eldorado family compound to sign off on all the conditions imposed.

....

Parents must agree to parenting classes. They cannot leave the state and must cooperate with the ongoing Child Protective Services investigation. This would give caseworkers access to their homes unannounced.
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Old 06-02-2008, 11:05 AM   #221
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Why exactly do the parents have to take parenting classes? What evidence has the state provided to warrant such a waste of time? Putting religious differences aside, it seems to me the order to take parenting classes is some sort of vindication to CPS that they weren't completely out of line.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080602/...gamist_retreat

Quote:
SAN ANGELO, Texas - A judge on Monday ordered the return of more than 400 children taken from their parents at a polygamist group's ranch, following the state Supreme Court ruling that the state's seizure of the youngsters wasn't justified.

The order signed by Texas District Judge Barbara Walther allowed parents to begin picking up their children from foster care at 10 a.m. CDT.

In exchange for regaining custody, the parents are not being allowed to leave Texas without court permission and must participate in parenting classes. They were also ordered not to interfere with any child abuse investigation and to allow the children to undergo psychiatric or medical exams if required.

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Old 06-06-2008, 10:51 AM   #222
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Governor Goodhair defends CPS, lawbreaking...

link

Quote:
...

“If responsibility needs to be taken for [court edicts] saying that we stepped across some legal line, I'll certainly take that responsibility," Mr. Perry said. “I am substantially less interested in these fine legal lines that we're discussing than I am about these children's welfare, that's where my focus is. That's where CPS' focus is."

...
btw...it is the constitutional duty of the Governor of Texas to uphold and faithfully execute "these fine legal lines", or "laws" as we might call them", and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the governor to be overwhelmingly interested in doing such a thing....

.....but Perry isn't, because, well....."it's for the children."
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Old 06-06-2008, 11:00 AM   #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexamenos
Governor Goodhair defends CPS, lawbreaking...

btw...it is the constitutional duty of the Governor of Texas to uphold and faithfully execute "these fine legal lines", or "laws" as we might call them", and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the governor to be overwhelmingly interested in doing such a thing....

.....but Perry isn't, because, well....."it's for the children."
I totally disagree with you - I think Perry's hair is average (at best...)

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Old 06-06-2008, 11:07 AM   #224
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moreover, says a spokesperson for Governor Greathair....

Quote:
"The governor is concerned that the legal process by which the children were removed from their home is overshadowing the sexual abuse allegations at hand," said Perry's deputy press secretary, Allison Castle.
heaven forbid we should allow allegations made by the state to be overshadowed by the wholesale inability of the state to marshall any evidence of abuse in an actual court of law....
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Old 06-07-2008, 12:31 PM   #225
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An Oklahoma Highway Department employee stopped
at a farm and talked with an old farmer. He told the farmer, "I need to
inspect your farm for a possible new road."

The old farmer said, "OK, but don't get out in
that pasture over there."

The Highway Dept. employee flashed out his
identification card and said, "I have the authority of the State of
Oklahoma to go any where I want. See this card? I will go wherever I
wish."

So the old farmer went about his farm chores.

It wasn't too much later and the farmer heard
loud screams and yelling. He looked over and saw several Highway Dept.
employees running for their lives and right behind was the farmer's huge
prize bull. The bull was madder than a hornet's nest and was gaining on
the employee at every step.

The old farmer yelled out, "Show him your card,
Smart Ass.... Show him your card!!"

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Highway Dept.=CPS
Bull=Texas Appeals court and Texas Supreme Court
Farmer=Alexamenos...
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Old 06-11-2008, 01:53 PM   #226
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Recalling now that the Texas authorities went to YFZ with SWAT Teams, Helicopters, Snipers and Tanks......

....where they were met by a bunch of guys who were unarmed and praying....

Paranoid Delusions

Quote:
Judge in polygamist sect raid under guard against possible retribution

Updated: 10:30 AM- SAN ANGELO, Texas -- The home of a Texas judge who ordered the removal of 440 children from a polygamist ranch is under guard after Utah and Arizona authorities warned of ''enforcers" from the sect, a newspaper reported Wednesday.
Police assigned to Judge Barbara Walther's San Angelo, Texas, house were provided dossiers and photos of 16 men and women deemed a threat, the Deseret News said.
''There are many individuals who are willing to give up their life for the cause and you can never underestimate what a religious fanatic is capable of," said e-mails obtained from the Washington County sheriff's office through state public records law.

"enforcers" ..... oooooh, i'm a little scared. /sarcasm

It's possible that this bit of alarmist "OH MY GOD, the Fundies are coming!" stuff is a bit of propaganda in preparation for whatever criminal charges might be brought.....but I'm inclined to think these folks are really so delusional that they honestly believe a bunch of folks carrying semi-automatic rifles in one hand, a 14 year old girl in one hand, and a book of mormon in the other hand are going to show at Judge Walthers house for some sort of apocalyptic battle.

anyway, judging by this dossier of the 16 "enforcers", I'd say that they have as difficult of a time counting threatening adults as they do counting teen-aged girls....

lessee, of the 16 "enforcers," ...

...5 are described as people who have exhibited no history of violence or intimidation;
...6 are described as people who apparently gave some other people mean looks once;
...2 are described as people who "seemed" unduly interested in the security detail surrounding a court proceeding...
...1 is described as a guy who asked an FLDS member to leave the community;
...1 is a crazy old woman;

and

....the last is the leader of the pack, described as one who has a "passion for violence, weapons (legal and illegal) and explosives"*.




*the same could be said of about 95% of males in West Texas.
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Old 06-11-2008, 03:53 PM   #227
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alexamenos pwns this thread.
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Old 06-11-2008, 08:16 PM   #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexamenos
Recalling now that the Texas authorities went to YFZ with SWAT Teams, Helicopters, Snipers and Tanks......

....where they were met by a bunch of guys who were unarmed and praying....

Paranoid Delusions




"enforcers" ..... oooooh, i'm a little scared. /sarcasm

It's possible that this bit of alarmist "OH MY GOD, the Fundies are coming!" stuff is a bit of propaganda in preparation for whatever criminal charges might be brought.....but I'm inclined to think these folks are really so delusional that they honestly believe a bunch of folks carrying semi-automatic rifles in one hand, a 14 year old girl in one hand, and a book of mormon in the other hand are going to show at Judge Walthers house for some sort of apocalyptic battle.

anyway, judging by this dossier of the 16 "enforcers", I'd say that they have as difficult of a time counting threatening adults as they do counting teen-aged girls....

lessee, of the 16 "enforcers," ...

...5 are described as people who have exhibited no history of violence or intimidation;
...6 are described as people who apparently gave some other people mean looks once;
...2 are described as people who "seemed" unduly interested in the security detail surrounding a court proceeding...
...1 is described as a guy who asked an FLDS member to leave the community;
...1 is a crazy old woman;

and

....the last is the leader of the pack, described as one who has a "passion for violence, weapons (legal and illegal) and explosives"*.




*the same could be said of about 95% of males in West Texas.
Makes you wonder who set fire to the governor's mansion...
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Old 06-23-2008, 01:06 PM   #229
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a little through the looking glass, here --> link

The blog runs it down nicely, but basically:

1) Natalie Malonis (att'y at what she probably calls "law") says Teresa Jeffs, her 16 year old girl/momma of a little baby, is in dire need of protection from the evil forces at YFZ;
2) Teresa Jeffs says she ain't ever been pregnant, that she ain't scared of the any of the old dudes at YFZ, and that Natalie Malonis is harping bitch who never listens to anything she has to say....

kind of interesting, and with representation like this, who needs a prosecution?
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Old 01-10-2014, 11:50 AM   #230
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Default Yep. Called it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack.Kerr View Post
No publicly announced plans yet to confiscate the YFZ Ranch and convert it into a Baptist youth church camp and indoctrination center, but....stay tuned and keep your eye on who owns the property 5 years from now.
5 years, 9 months.

Quote:
Polygamist sect ordered to forfeit West Texas ranch to state

Posted Thursday, Jan. 09, 2014
The Associated Press
SAN ANGELO — The West Texas judge who presided over the criminal cases involving a polygamist sect has ordered the group to forfeit its West Texas ranch to the state.

State District Judge Barbara Walther’s order came Monday in Eldorado after no one representing the owner of Yearning for Zion Ranch appeared for a hearing, which was a civil, not criminal, matter.

The San Angelo Standard-Times reported that Walther authorized the Schleicher County Sheriff’s Department to enter the YFZ ranch and inventory the property.

The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints owned the ranch under the name United Order of Texas. The Texas attorney general’s office filed to seize the ranch in 2012, citing sexual assaults of children committed there and accusing sect leaders of financing the purchase of the remote property through illegal money laundering.

The state prosecuted 12 men in the sect, including leader Warren Jeffs.

Attorney General Greg Abbott’s office has not charged any members of the sect with any financial crimes.
The sect bought the secluded property in Schleicher County for about $1.1 million in 2003, according to the 2012 filing by Abbott’s office. The current value of the ranch was not reported Monday.

Online records of the Schleicher County Appraisal District indicate a dozen pieces of property at the ranch’s address with the owner United Order of Texas totaling 1,691 acres. Combined, the appraised value of the properties in 2012 was $33.4 million.

Starting with a raid on the ranch in April 2008 during which child welfare authorities took 439 children into custody, the state spent more than $4.5 million pursuing cases against Jeffs and 11 followers.

Jeffs was convicted of sexually assaulting two girls, ages 12 and 15, whom he described as “spiritual wives.”

At trial, prosecutors presented DNA evidence to show he fathered a child with one girl when she was 15.
Jeffs is serving a life sentence in a prison in Palestine. He has continued to try to lead his 10,000 followers from behind bars.

It’s not known how many people still live in the compound about 200 miles west of San Antonio, but the seizure warrant does not require them to leave.

The sect is a radical offshoot of mainstream Mormonism. Its members believe polygamy brings exaltation in heaven.
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