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Old 07-14-2019, 09:44 AM   #1
JJP
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Default Mavericks Offense, Center Position

Since things got too unwieldy in the Free Agents thread.... below

The Mavericks run a “Flow Offense” and have been doing so as far back as the Championship in 2011. To run it properly, you need good screeners and good 3-point shooters. Your wings have to shoot well from the perimeter, and the big men have to move well, set screens, and run the pick-and-roll. If they can shoot a 3-ball, that’s even better.

Here is Golden State running the Flow Offense: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArlH52ak2eY (there is no dialog in this video, but you get to see all the screening that takes place). Golden State fired Mark Jackson because they didn’t like his traditional isolation offense. Steve Kerr brought in a version of the flow offense that worked to perfection.

The Mavericks were good at in 2011 because of Jet, Peja, Dirk, Barea and others who could shoot the 3’s well. You can use a traditional big man like Tyson Chandler as long as they 1. Could set high screens well 2. Could move well without the ball and 3. Could run the pick-and-roll well. Chandler could do all of those. You must be willing to keep the ball moving. Dallas nearly led the league in assists that year.

Golden State is great at running it because they seem to have the perfect personnel for it. On top of that GS has good defenders who communicate well led by Draymond Green (Dallas has always struggled with defense, partially because while Dirk was a good screener on offense, he was a bit slow in getting to shooters on defense).

Golden State and Portland are the two teams who get the most press for their “flow” offense. Both have good 3-point shooters. But Dallas has been running it for a while as well. Think of all the pick-and-rolls they run. However, they’ve struggled to get the right 3-point personnel in place and to cover their defensive deficiencies with Dirk and others.

Big men have to adapt their game in the flow offense. Guys like Vucevic are natural at it. He’s a pretty good screener, he’s active without the ball, and he’s a good 3-point guy. Dedman would also likely be pretty good at it, although Atlanta’s offense was a mystery to me. Sacramento will likely try and take advantage of Dedman’s skill set.

Toronto ran something similar to the flow, and Marc Gasol changed his game to make it work. Now all of my memories of Gasol are shooting 3’s for Toronto, not playing an inside game for Memphis. Robin Lopez also changed his game to make it work in Milwaukee.

Traditional big men can still be winners. Utah had Rudy Gorbet and Derrick Favors and neither of them would even consider shooting a 3. Memphis will still be good with Valanciunas. However, most teams are struggling to figure this out.

Traditional good offensive big men are guys like Valanciunas and Steven Adams (hence, this post). Their games have not been expanded yet to work within a flow offense. Perhaps they can adapt.

Big men who were traditional big men who have changed their game are Lopez and Marc Gasol. They are older, but they can still move well and set screens.

Offensively, Dwight Powell would be terrific at this if he could shoot the 3 better. As it is, he is still very good, and he is very active without the ball. Dwight Powell has a rebounding deficiency as well, so that has to be accounted for… and he will have to work on that. Draymond Green is great for GS even without a good 3-ball because he is such a good defender even out on the wings. He can rotate on defense to cover a variety of players.

In a nutshell, Dallas is seeking personnel who can run a flow offense. KP is shoe-in for that style and Powell already can run it well. Both our guards will be naturals at this offense now as well. Bigger and slower big men are prone to have problems in this offense. Dallas is not likely going back to days of Eric Dampier. The NBA is trending away from traditional in-the-paint centers. Both Merji and Powell have been asked to advance their shooting percentages to the 3-point line help contribute to the flow offense.

For better or worse, Dallas runs a flow offense. They are putting the personnel in place who they think can run it best. They are looking for very specific attributes. Now we can all play “fantasy owner” and pretend we run the team, but Cuban, Nelson, and Carlisle have already decided what type of player they want at center. Just because a center looks good on another team doesn’t mean he’s a desirable fit on this one.

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Old 07-14-2019, 11:04 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by JJP View Post
Since things got too unwieldy in the Free Agents thread.... below

The Mavericks run a “Flow Offense” and have been doing so as far back as the Championship in 2011. To run it properly, you need good screeners and good 3-point shooters. Your wings have to shoot well from the perimeter, and the big men have to move well, set screens, and run the pick-and-roll. If they can shoot a 3-ball, that’s even better.

Here is Golden State running the Flow Offense: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArlH52ak2eY (there is no dialog in this video, but you get to see all the screening that takes place). Golden State fired Mark Jackson because they didn’t like his traditional isolation offense. Steve Kerr brought in a version of the flow offense that worked to perfection.

The Mavericks were good at in 2011 because of Jet, Peja, Dirk, Barea and others who could shoot the 3’s well. You can use a traditional big man like Tyson Chandler as long as they 1. Could set high screens well 2. Could move well without the ball and 3. Could run the pick-and-roll well. Chandler could do all of those. You must be willing to keep the ball moving. Dallas nearly led the league in assists that year.

Golden State is great at running it because they seem to have the perfect personnel for it. On top of that GS has good defenders who communicate well led by Draymond Green (Dallas has always struggled with defense, partially because while Dirk was a good screener on offense, he was a bit slow in getting to shooters on defense).

Golden State and Portland are the two teams who get the most press for their “flow” offense. Both have good 3-point shooters. But Dallas has been running it for a while as well. Think of all the pick-and-rolls they run. However, they’ve struggled to get the right 3-point personnel in place and to cover their defensive deficiencies with Dirk and others.

Big men have to adapt their game in the flow offense. Guys like Vucevic are natural at it. He’s a pretty good screener, he’s active without the ball, and he’s a good 3-point guy. Dedman would also likely be pretty good at it, although Atlanta’s offense was a mystery to me. Sacramento will likely try and take advantage of Dedman’s skill set.

Toronto ran something similar to the flow, and Marc Gasol changed his game to make it work. Now all of my memories of Gasol are shooting 3’s for Toronto, not playing an inside game for Memphis. Robin Lopez also changed his game to make it work in Milwaukee.

Traditional big men can still be winners. Utah had Rudy Gorbet and Derrick Favors and neither of them would even consider shooting a 3. Memphis will still be good with Valanciunas. However, most teams are struggling to figure this out.

Traditional good offensive big men are guys like Valanciunas and Steven Adams (hence, this post). Their games have not been expanded yet to work within a flow offense. Perhaps they can adapt.

Big men who were traditional big men who have changed their game are Lopez and Marc Gasol. They are older, but they can still move well and set screens.

Offensively, Dwight Powell would be terrific at this if he could shoot the 3 better. As it is, he is still very good, and he is very active without the ball. Dwight Powell has a rebounding deficiency as well, so that has to be accounted for… and he will have to work on that. Draymond Green is great for GS even without a good 3-ball because he is such a good defender even out on the wings. He can rotate on defense to cover a variety of players.

In a nutshell, Dallas is seeking personnel who can run a flow offense. KP is shoe-in for that style and Powell already can run it well. Both our guards will be naturals at this offense now as well. Bigger and slower big men are prone to have problems in this offense. Dallas is not likely going back to days of Eric Dampier. The NBA is trending away from traditional in-the-paint centers. Both Merji and Powell have been asked to advance their shooting percentages to the 3-point line help contribute to the flow offense.

For better or worse, Dallas runs a flow offense. They are putting the personnel in place who they think can run it best. They are looking for very specific attributes. Now we can all play “fantasy owner” and pretend we run the team, but Cuban, Nelson, and Carlisle have already decided what type of player they want at center. Just because a center looks good on another team doesn’t mean he’s a desirable fit on this one.

Thanks for starting this thread so we can discuss. I think overall we dont disagree on what might be BEST for this team at the C position, but we disagree on someone like Adams being VERY GOOD for this team.

I highlighted some of the above form your post, because I feel that bringing up TC actually helps my point. TC had a little more bounce that Adams but I think Adams would bring to this team a lot of what TC brought in 2011.

Adams cant shoot the 3 but he does everything else very well. TC couldn't shoot the 3 and did everything else very well.

When you look at the 2011 team and this team, adding Adams to this team would give us some very similar pieces.
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Old 07-14-2019, 11:30 AM   #3
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You're right... but it just seems like lately teams that run a flow offense are asking their centers to take a percentage of threes. That wasn't so much the case in 2011. This has been trending for a few years.

The question with Adams has always been one of value, not talent. We don't know if he can adjust to the three-ball. Are we willing to pay that salary to find out?

This isn't really about what you or I think. It's about how the FO sees it.. and it's about some metrics we probably don't see as fans. For instance Tap2390 already posted some defensive metrics on Adams I was not aware of. We haven't talked much about situational defense, and I wouldn't know personally about Adams. We also don't know if he's slow in transition, or if his passing would be adequate in this system. But I'm sure the FO knows.

There is one other possibility. It's possible that the Mavs might want him, but that he's not available. I believe it's much more likely that he doesn't fit, or that he's too expensive... but anything is possible. Again, we don't know what the front office knows.

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Old 07-14-2019, 12:00 PM   #4
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I think what I'm gathering here is that we all see value in Adams, the question is just to what extent. All of this is hypothetical anyway, so for the sake of conversation would you pull the trigger at 20 Million a year? 15? 10?
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Old 07-14-2019, 12:05 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by JJP View Post
You're right... but it just seems like lately teams that run a flow offense are asking their centers to take a percentage of threes. That wasn't so much the case in 2011. This has been trending for a few years.

The question with Adams has always been one of value, not talent. We don't know if he can adjust to the three-ball. Are we willing to pay that salary to find out?

This isn't really about what you or I think. It's about how the FO sees it.. and it's about some metrics we probably don't see as fans. For instance Tap2390 already posted some defensive metrics on Adams I was not aware of. We haven't talked much about situational defense, and I wouldn't know personally about Adams. We also don't know if he's slow in transition, or if his passing would be adequate in this system. But I'm sure the FO knows.

There is one other possibility. It's possible that the Mavs might want him, but that he's not available. I believe it's much more likely that he doesn't fit, or that he's too expensive... but anything is possible. Again, we don't know what the front office knows.
So I think we agree on more than we think.

1. The game has gone mostly in the direction that you mentioned but I think there are a few teams with biog men who don't shoot 3s that have proven that it can be successful.

2. I agree that he is slightly overpaid, but I still think you have to take into account age and overall skill/ impact. MOST importantly, our current situation and that Adams really cant hurt us financially because he has 2 more years (2021). I see more positives in that as well. If he does really well, then we have an advantage is resigning him when the time comes maybe to a team friendly deal and eh will be 28 and in his prime. If not, we get the cap space or look at other options.

3. I get some of those advanced stats and number and sometimes they are absolutely right, I think the eye test can be a good thing as well sometimes and a player like Adams IMO looks good already but if we put him in a different situation (away from RW), I feel like he would only improve. I would be curious about some of his stats when he was playing with RW and KD, although I think hes a better player now then he was years ago.

4. he is 25 and it would not surprise me at all if OKC wanted to hang on to him. A hard working, no drama kind of guy fits well in many places. If they decide to keep CP3 (even with his decline), I have already said that a lineup of CP3, SGA, Gallinari and Adams would not be bad at all and in fact I think Adams might benefit the most.

5. I think, based on what I have seen Adams overall skill set is pretty good and that he moves well in pick and rolls on offense, moves well without the ball and generally moves well on offense and defense.I think he is a willing and good (maybe not very good) passer. Obviously he is physical and rebounds well.

My argument always circles back to his age, what I THINK his fit/ skill set would be here, and the fact that its for 2 years and doesn't impact our current situation in a negative way in almost any scenario. At the same time, IF things work out well, we have a starting C pretty much for a good portion of Luka and KPs primes.
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Old 07-14-2019, 12:20 PM   #6
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So I think we agree on more than we think.

1. The game has gone mostly in the direction that you mentioned but I think there are a few teams with biog men who don't shoot 3s that have proven that it can be successful.

2. I agree that he is slightly overpaid, but I still think you have to take into account age and overall skill/ impact. MOST importantly, our current situation and that Adams really cant hurt us financially because he has 2 more years (2021). I see more positives in that as well. If he does really well, then we have an advantage is resigning him when the time comes maybe to a team friendly deal and eh will be 28 and in his prime. If not, we get the cap space or look at other options.

3. I get some of those advanced stats and number and sometimes they are absolutely right, I think the eye test can be a good thing as well sometimes and a player like Adams IMO looks good already but if we put him in a different situation (away from RW), I feel like he would only improve. I would be curious about some of his stats when he was playing with RW and KD, although I think hes a better player now then he was years ago.

4. he is 25 and it would not surprise me at all if OKC wanted to hang on to him. A hard working, no drama kind of guy fits well in many places. If they decide to keep CP3 (even with his decline), I have already said that a lineup of CP3, SGA, Gallinari and Adams would not be bad at all and in fact I think Adams might benefit the most.

5. I think, based on what I have seen Adams overall skill set is pretty good and that he moves well in pick and rolls on offense, moves well without the ball and generally moves well on offense and defense.I think he is a willing and good (maybe not very good) passer. Obviously he is physical and rebounds well.

My argument always circles back to his age, what I THINK his fit/ skill set would be here, and the fact that its for 2 years and doesn't impact our current situation in a negative way in almost any scenario. At the same time, IF things work out well, we have a starting C pretty much for a good portion of Luka and KPs primes.
First, to DavidDaMonkey's question. Honestly I don't know, because I don't know if the Mavs value him at just any price. I will tell you that Valanciunas has a brand new contract and is a similar player. He is 10 million dollars cheaper, and has better statistics all across the board. So that tells you something.

AO41, we probably do mostly agree. However, I'm willing to accept the fact that the FO has a vision that doesn't include centers that literally stay inside the paint on offense.

It doesn't much matter what I wish to be true. As a fan I have to decide if I'm willing to share the Mavs FO vision or not. If I am, then not pursuing Steven Adams makes sense and I'm OK with it.

Clearly the Mavs failed on getting a better wing player, so i'm disappointed in that. But the center position, not so much. My guess is they had factored in Powell as the starter already.

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Old 07-14-2019, 12:55 PM   #7
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I don't think it has to do with Adams's ability, or at least not as much, and much more to do with investing money into Powell/Kleber. I mean, the idea that Powell is going to be any kind of three point threat is hilariously misguided. He also can't pass, rebound, or defend. But hey, elite rim running costs 11 million a season these days I guess.

If we didn't have Powell, then Adams is an easy, easy choice, but c'est la vie.
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Old 07-14-2019, 12:59 PM   #8
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Since Powell is now a starter, let's compare stats projected per 36 minutes.

Powell
15.2 points per game
9.1 total rebounds per game
2.4 assists per game
FT's - .772 percentage
3-point - 29%

Adams
14.9 points per game last season
9.9 rebounds per game
1.3 assists per game
FT% - .500
3-point percentage = 0% ???

Powell makes about 11 million a year.
Adams makes about 25 million a year.

Which do you take? Even if you assume Adams makes up the difference with some defensive metric, how much change is that?

Plus, Powell brings experience within this system. He knows how to switch on Carlisle's defense. We know he's effective on pick and rolls with all our PGs. So experience should be factored in. Now factor in the fact that Adams doesn't finish games and can't be trusted with FTs.

The argument for Adams can't be based on stats. Unless someone has significantly different stats

https://www.basketball-reference.com...adamsst01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com...poweldw01.html

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Old 07-14-2019, 10:54 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JJP View Post
Since Powell is now a starter, let's compare stats projected per 36 minutes.

Powell
15.2 points per game
9.1 total rebounds per game
2.4 assists per game
FT's - .772 percentage
3-point - 29%

Adams
14.9 points per game last season
9.9 rebounds per game
1.3 assists per game
FT% - .500
3-point percentage = 0% ???

Powell makes about 11 million a year.
Adams makes about 25 million a year.

Which do you take? Even if you assume Adams makes up the difference with some defensive metric, how much change is that?

Plus, Powell brings experience within this system. He knows how to switch on Carlisle's defense. We know he's effective on pick and rolls with all our PGs. So experience should be factored in. Now factor in the fact that Adams doesn't finish games and can't be trusted with FTs.

The argument for Adams can't be based on stats. Unless someone has significantly different stats

https://www.basketball-reference.com...adamsst01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com...poweldw01.html
I think you are underselling how much better rebounder Adams is compared to Powell. Ignoring for now that he played more minutes and strictly as a starter vs Powell who mostly came off the bench last year, breaking down their per 36 min stats shows this (https://www.basketball-reference.com...er_minute.html)

Adams:
5.3 offensive rebounds per 36 (5th in the league, only Drummond as a full time starter had more)
5.0 defensive rebounds per 36 (121st in the league)

Powell:
3.0 offensive rebounds per 36 (42th in the league)
5.9 defensive rebounds per 36 (83th in the league)

Remember that Adams played next to Westbrook, so his defensive rebounds are lower because he focused on boxing out and leaving those rebounds for Westbrook. So we can assume that by not playing next to Westbrook, the number of defensive rebounds he would get will increase.

The top rebounders last year among starterting players are Drummond (5.8 offensive, 11 defensive rebounds per 36) and Capela (4.8 offensive, 8.8 defensive rebounds per 36). Comparing those two to Adams, I don't think it's unreasonable to think that Adams might average closer to 9 or more defensive rebounds per 36 by not playing next to Westbrook.

I agree he is currently overpaid and it's very possible the FO are not even thinking of him or that the price OKC is asking is unreasonable which rules us out completely, but it's not like we have never looked for traditional centers like Adams. Just last year we signed DeAndre, who we also chased in Free Agency on 2015 and before that we went after Howard. All three have similar limitations, but contributed enough as a defensive center to be considered good fits by the FO and Carlisle.

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Old 07-15-2019, 01:19 AM   #10
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In rebound rate (independent of playtime, just available rebounds vs rebounds secured which I view as a strong metric)

Adams was 44th among centers with over 20mpg played
Powell was 50th amongst centers

I know Adams had competition in the form of Westbrook, but he still doesn’t show up well on the advanced rebounding stats. Nerlens Noel beat him (although played fewer minutes with Westbrook)

Then again, rebounding isn’t everything and we really patched up our rebounding. Doncic is way above average. Wright was top 10 among guards and was up there with Westbrook in rebounding. Deandre Jordan was #4 in that stat and his (lack of) defense was a terrible fit for us last year and would be even more unplayable this coming year next to KP

Other misc: Boban was 11th. Kleber was 53 (but played a lot of PF and played away shooting 3s)
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Old 07-15-2019, 05:40 AM   #11
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Hey, I totally agree I undersell Adams as a force in blocking out and rebounding. Powell will need to be a bit better, That's one thing.

I was going to say two things, but EricaLubarsky beat me to the other one. This is a case where we are at least capable of out-rebounding our opponent by a combined team effort. That certainly wasn't the case 4-5 years ago. Doncic makes a big difference, and Wright is promising there as well.

The other thing is rebounding is a trade off when you are trying to run a flow offense built on quickness. Big guys like Demarcus Cousins are almost a handicap for Golden State. They can't stay on the floor long. They will get their rebounds in limited minutes, but the trade-off isn't worth the points on offense. Green is better on offense and defense, but will get out-rebounded by traditional centers. Golden State is 9th in team rebounding, but per 36 minutes Dwight Powell is better and will out-rebound Draymond Green. Most teams are trending away from lumbering big-man types because they slow everything down on offense and make it more predictable. But they need good team rebounding to be effective. Dallas has a ways to go to be a good rebounding team.

Powell will need to be better in the paint to be a effective starter. But even at his production now, he's close. And Adams is certainly not 13 million dollars better.

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Old 07-15-2019, 08:25 AM   #12
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I would love for Powell to become an effective starter, I like his attitude and he has worked hard on improving his game. But I have a hard time seeing him as a long term solution at center which is why I guess in my mind I like to look at options to improve there and Steven Adams would be one (again, purely hypothetical that we can get him).

Powell is already 27 and still hasn't gained the starting spot here after 5 years with the team. On a playoff team I think ideally you want him as the 6-7th player in your rotation, playing a similar role to Ibaka on the raptors last year.

We also have the option to play Porzingis at Center, but given that he is coming back from injury I'd prefer have someone else going toe to toe with Embiid, Gobert, Jokic, Nurkic and other big centers and I'm not fully confident Dwight Powell is going to be able to do that. At that point we also have Boban, but he brings a whole other set of issues.

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Old 07-15-2019, 08:50 AM   #13
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I would love for Powell to become an effective starter, I like his attitude and he has worked hard on improving his game. But I have a hard time seeing him as a long term solution at center which is why I guess in my mind I like to look at options to improve there and Steven Adams would be one (again, purely hypothetical that we can get him).

Powell is already 27 and still hasn't gained the starting spot here after 5 years with the team. On a playoff team I think ideally you want him as the 6-7th player in your rotation, playing a similar role to Ibaka on the raptors last year.

We also have the option to play Porzingis at Center, but given that he is coming back from injury I'd prefer have someone else going toe to toe with Embiid, Gobert, KAT, Jokic, Nurkic and other big centers and I'm not fully confident Dwight Powell is going to be able to do that. At that point we also have Boban, but he brings a whole other set of issues.
Well, it sounds like you want a traditional center. I feel certain the Mavs aren't going to give you want you want there. However, they might eventually get someone like a starter-Ibaka who is about the same statistically as Powell but has a meaner attitude. Ibaka isn't as mobile as used to be, but you get what I'm saying I think. Or, for comparison, see Nikola Jokic. Just remember, Jokic isn't like Adams at all. Jokic moves out to the elbow and can shoot perimeter shots. The Mavs want someone who can play outside the paint.

As outlined above with Powell's statistics, he is a starter. He's just not a dominant defensive big man. The Mavs plan on neutralizing opposing centers is to spread the floor rather than making our center bigger and meaner. It's never going to look right to many of us, including me. I have a proto-typical image in my mind of a center. Powell isn't it. But I've gotten used to seeing effective small centers, and I have to believe the Mavs have seen Powell enough to know that he can be more than adequate paired next to Porzingas. And of course Carlisle is no rookie at this either having spent years of playing Dirk as an occasional center.

This year will likely decide Powell's future as a starter. But I think we have to get this idea of a proto-typical center out of our heads. Unless of course that center can play outside the paint, set good screens, run effective pick-and-rolls with the guards, and occasionally be able to switch defensively without getting burned. Those qualities appear to be what the Mavs want.

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Old 07-15-2019, 09:09 AM   #14
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Powell's stats as a starter? SMH The guy ran his numbers up AFTER the Mavs had finished demolishing their starting 5 and had dealt 4 of them. SOMEBODY had to get those stats after the ASG.

I sure hope you guys are right about Powell, but I think the lack of defending and rebounding is going to get old fast, regardless of how hard he looks to be trying when he flops all over the floor because of "effort." I just don't see it.

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Old 07-15-2019, 09:18 AM   #15
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Well, it sounds like you want a traditional center. I feel certain the Mavs aren't going to give you want you want there. However, they might eventually get someone like Ibaka who is about the same statistically as Powell but has a meaner attitude. Ibaka isn't as mobile as used to be, but you get what I'm saying I think. The Mavs want someone who can play outside the paint.

As outlined above with Powell's statistics, he is a starter. He's just not a dominant defensive big man. The Mavs plan on neutralizing opposing centers is to spread the floor rather making our center bigger and meaner. It's never going to look right to many of us, including me. I have a proto-typical image in my mind of a center. Powell isn't it. But I've gotten used to seeing effective small centers, and I have to believe the Mavs have seen Powell enough to know that he can be more than adequate paired next to Porzingas. And of course Carlisle is no rookie at this either having spent years of playing Dirk as an occasional center.

This year will likely decide Powell's future as a starter. But I think we have to get this idea of a proto-typical center out of our heads. Unless of course that center can play outside the paint, set good screens, run effective pick-and-rolls with the guards, and occasionally be able to switch defensively without getting burned. Those qualities appear to be what the Mavs want.
I'm OK with going into the season this year with Powell as starting center since I see this a transition year for us, where we are likely not going to be in the playoff mix but we are in a path to become a contender in the next few years. Would be great if he does work out and then we can use our resources to get a good wing next year as our third star next to Luka and KP.

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Old 07-15-2019, 09:19 AM   #16
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Powell's stats as a starter? SMH The guy ran his number up AFTER the Mavs had finished demolishing their starting 5 and had dealt 4 of them. SOMEBODY had to get those stats after the ASG.

I sure hope you guys are right about Powell, but I think the lack of defending and rebounding is going to get old fast, regardless of how hard he looks to be trying when he flops all over the floor because of "effort." I just don't see it.
Powell does hustle. He would not be here if he didn't. For a while that may have been the only thing that kept him in the league. Now he obviously has much more to offer and it's not fake hustle or flopping all over the floor. If you cant at least find some satisfaction in how hard he goes, it may be a long season for ya.
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Old 07-15-2019, 09:40 AM   #17
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Powell is an excellent rim running/dunking player. Up there with the best in the league at doing that.

Pulling any other arbitrary advanced stats to try to pretend he does anything else consistently well isn't living in the reality.

And I'm certainly living in an alternate universe if anyone honestly thinks Powell is anywhere near as good as Adams.
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Old 07-15-2019, 09:54 AM   #18
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And I'm certainly living in an alternate universe if anyone honestly thinks Powell is anywhere near as good as Adams.
That's not the question though. Nobody is really arguing that. I'm certainly not.

The question is about fit and value. Is Adams limited skill set in the Mavs offense worth the financial investment? That's the question. Is he the best use of 25m in cap money?

And I would argue that the statistics I pulled up are hardly arbitrary. Those are baseline metrics.

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Old 07-15-2019, 10:13 AM   #19
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I'm OK with going into the season this year with Powell as starting center since I see this a transition year for us, where we are likely not going to be in the playoff mix but we are in a path to become a contender in the next few years. Would be great if he does work out and then we can use our resources to get a good wing next year as our third star next to Luka and KP.
Ideally, I have to think the Mavs FO is thinking that way.
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Old 07-15-2019, 11:07 AM   #20
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Adams and Vuc are earning the same amount of max money.

That’s ridiculous
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Old 07-15-2019, 11:07 AM   #21
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That's not the question though. Nobody is really arguing that. I'm certainly not.

The question is about fit and value. Is Adams limited skill set in the Mavs offense worth the financial investment? That's the question. Is he the best use of 25m in cap money?

And I would argue that the statistics I pulled up are hardly arbitrary. Those are baseline metrics.
How many times does someone have to remind you that we are an over the cap team? At this point the only harm in signing a good young talented center is that Mark Cuban has to pay luxury tax. If he is a bad fit as you claim then you dump him next year for a player that fits better. The guy is 25 years old and better than anything we've had at center since Tyson Chandler. It is also debatable that Tyson Chandler is the mavericks best or second best center ever. In a perfect world yes I'd prefer that all players on the floor could shoot 40% from 3 but it doesn't work like that. You need big guys that can set screens, alter shots, box people out, and get rebounds. There was a big decline in rebounding and team play once they traded away our only true big last year.
I will guarantee you that by next year's trading deadline this team is going to overpay for some center help whether they shoot 3s or not. Why not go ahead and get a premier center now?
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Old 07-15-2019, 11:11 AM   #22
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I'm OK with going into the season this year with Powell as starting center since I see this a transition year for us, where we are likely not going to be in the playoff mix but we are in a path to become a contender in the next few years. Would be great if he does work out and then we can use our resources to get a good wing next year as our third star next to Luka and KP.
Powell is not a good center. Period. End of story. I don't know what the argument is about. There is a gaping hole right in the middle of the lineup at center. We saw all last year when they got pounded on the glass after we lost our only real center.
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Old 07-15-2019, 11:15 AM   #23
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Adams and Vuc are earning the same amount of max money.

That’s ridiculous
Yeah they are both overpaid, I agree. I'll take the younger guy on a 2 year contract all day everyday. This team needs Adams more than it needs another skill finesse player like Vuc.
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Old 07-15-2019, 12:47 PM   #24
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How many times does someone have to remind you that we are an over the cap team? At this point the only harm in signing a good young talented center is that Mark Cuban has to pay luxury tax. If he is a bad fit as you claim then you dump him next year for a player that fits better. The guy is 25 years old and better than anything we've had at center since Tyson Chandler. It is also debatable that Tyson Chandler is the mavericks best or second best center ever. In a perfect world yes I'd prefer that all players on the floor could shoot 40% from 3 but it doesn't work like that. You need big guys that can set screens, alter shots, box people out, and get rebounds. There was a big decline in rebounding and team play once they traded away our only true big last year.
I will guarantee you that by next year's trading deadline this team is going to overpay for some center help whether they shoot 3s or not. Why not go ahead and get a premier center now?

Cuban doesn't seem to have issue with paying lux tax if it's likely to produce success. I don't blame him for wanting to see how things go before biting the bullet on that. Adams is a big ass bullet and I can't believe how many people are still pining over this.

Comparing Vuc and Adams is just ... unfortunate.
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Old 07-15-2019, 05:25 PM   #25
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How many times does someone have to remind you that we are an over the cap team? At this point the only harm in signing a good young talented center is that Mark Cuban has to pay luxury tax. If he is a bad fit as you claim then you dump him next year for a player that fits better. The guy is 25 years old and better than anything we've had at center since Tyson Chandler. It is also debatable that Tyson Chandler is the mavericks best or second best center ever. In a perfect world yes I'd prefer that all players on the floor could shoot 40% from 3 but it doesn't work like that. You need big guys that can set screens, alter shots, box people out, and get rebounds. There was a big decline in rebounding and team play once they traded away our only true big last year.
I will guarantee you that by next year's trading deadline this team is going to overpay for some center help whether they shoot 3s or not. Why not go ahead and get a premier center now?
Wow. If you think the organization as a whole doesn’t care about money then I’m just going to ignore this post. I’m glad you can guarantee a new player though.
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Old 09-19-2019, 12:28 AM   #26
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Old 09-26-2019, 12:00 AM   #27
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I like Dwight Powell, but I don't like him as a starter.
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