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Old 07-15-2019, 02:42 AM   #4241
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Originally Posted by AO41 View Post
I just wanted to go through some highlights on Adams to see if I have been missing something on him or if he looks slow. I just started watching this and I get it they are positive HIGHLIGHTS....but he just destroyed Davis multiple times in the first 40 seconds.


We can talk about some of the measure/ metrics but the guy is a beast.

Give me Adams any time.

https://youtu.be/iSSER0kSw3U
Anyone watching this canít say heís slow and immobile. He does well offensively and could pick and roll well. Man I wish Mavs would go get him
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Old 07-15-2019, 05:42 AM   #4242
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Anyone watching this canít say heís slow and immobile. He does well offensively and could pick and roll well. Man I wish Mavs would go get him
Feel free to bring that argument to the new thread on that subject.
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Old 07-15-2019, 08:27 AM   #4243
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The metric is points per possession allowed defending the pick and roll, my source is the Ringer, here:

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/4...m-jerami-grant

I really do understand Adams talent, heís great on the glass, and pick and roll offense. If we wanted someone like that we should have outbid the Celtics for Kanter at $5 million per game. We got Boban for $3.5 million a year. If youíre going to be paying Steven Adams $25 million a year for two years knowing that in most crunch situations youíre either putting Maxi + KP or KP + Dwight out there, you better get a pick too.
Thanks for your reply, and for providing the link. I read the article, and I think the article itself is mis-thought, but also being misinterpreted. This is your post that I responded to.

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No thanks to Steven Adams. Heís very likable and super tough, but he is in the 6th percentile when it comes to defending the pick-and-roll. He was absolutely exposed in the playoffs and you canít pay a guy like that $20+ million in the dynamic duo age of the NBA. Now if the Thunder are giving up a first round pick as well, I listen. Adams expires before Lukaís max will go into effect and therefore make us players in 2021 free agency.
This is the point that the article makes regarding Adams defending the P&R:

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The Blazers can put Adams in the pick-and-roll and get an open shot anytime they want. Heís in the 6th percentile of defenders on that play in the playoffs, giving up 1.19 points per possession.
It's a misapplication of a metric to limit it to one playoff series versus a hot-shooting Lilliard and McCollum duo who were exploiting the P&R; but it is a gross distortion to give the impression that Adams was one of the worst P&R defenders all season long. He wasn't.

Also, the blogger points out that Utah's DPOY Rudy Gobert was encountering the same issue and similar results in a series against the Rockets. I don't think I'd use the results from one series to argue against acquiring Gobert either.

Further, the comparison with Kanter, even making a 'value' point, is off-base.
Adams and Kanter are such different players that I wouldn't make any comparison at all. Kanter, in addition to being a world-class headache, IS one of the worst defenders in the league (no elevation, no lateral movement, no effort, even). He has about one and a half offensive moves (quick reverse spin from the right block (preferred)), and zero outside shot. He was an opportunistic producer offensively when paired with KP when they were together on the NYKs (putbacks and dump-offs), with KP drawing all defensive eyes. I think people make the same mistake of looking at Kanter's anomalous production against OKC in one playoff series, and think that's his norm; it's not. Kanter exhibits NONE of the defensive attributes that would motivate a team like the Mavericks to pursue a player like Adams. Kanter belongs nowhere in this conversation.

Similarly, comparing Adams to a player like Dwight Powell seems misguided. I have certainly appreciated Powell's efforts last season, so you won't hear me trashing him; but I always saw him as a valuable reserve (7th or 8th man), not a starter. Also, comparing Powell's production last year (in a tank year, after the trade for KP) to Adams' production on a playoff team, on a 36mpg projection also seems pointless.

If the choice is Powell at $11M versus Adams at $25M, I take Adams every time, without hesitation. Powell and Adams are in categorically different classes in terms of natural ability, and Adams is actually a couple of years younger. Talent generally wins out in the NBA, so when you get an opportunity to acquire top-tier talent, go for the talent. You might like to see it come at less of a price, but talent comes at a premium, and talented BIGs come at an additional premium.

The caveat in this case is availability. Would OKC trade Adams? Would OKC trade Adams to a division rival? Are they doing a total roster demolition? The article referenced above was written back in April while the playoff series v. Portland was still ongoing. It was written from the perspective of: 1) how to get back into the series; and 2) what kind of players would complement Westbrook. Westbrook is now gone. George preceded him. Paul wants out. If a player like Adams can be acquired as a team's roster is being dismantled, I would hope that Cuban and Nelson would bite the bullet and at least make an offer, rather than trying to play Smartest Guys in the Room, and wait for something cheap to come along.
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Old 07-15-2019, 11:34 AM   #4244
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If a player like Adams can be acquired as a team's roster is being dismantled, I would hope that Cuban and Nelson would bite the bullet and at least make an offer, rather than trying to play Smartest Guys in the Room, and wait for something cheap to come along.
First, well thought and articulate post...

But this Is the rub. Cuban is always playing smartest guy in the room and I donít think him and Nelson alone would convince themselves enough that Adams would greatly help this team. An outsider such as KP or Luka might have to nudge them, if even possible.
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Old 07-15-2019, 11:55 AM   #4245
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Adams is 2019-2020's Erick Dampier. You trade for him and his 53 million dollar contract and you, in theory, address an issue that you had (rebounding), but you do so by taking on a bloated contract for a guy who really doesn't have a place in the NBA anymore. Adams is a fossil of another era. The NBA is going away from slow, plodding centers with only one skill. The only really effective centers in the league are centers with at least one other elite skill.

All you have to do is look at what teams had success in the playoffs and you can see that being a big, rebounding guy in the center clogging up the middle isn't enough. You have to have at least one other elite skill to stay on the floor.

Traditional centers
Spurs - Poeltl - Couldn't make it in the playoffs. Spurs out in the first round.
Blazers - Kanter - (only played because of the Nurkic injury. Outplayed Adams). Conference finals.
Oklahoma - Adams - first round exit. Only averaged 12-7 with a FT% of 37.5%. Was outplayed by Kanter. OKC out in first round.
Utah - Gobert - first round exit
Brooklyn - Allen - first round exit

Elite passing
Denver - Jokic - second round
Toronto - Gasol - won the championship
Portland - Nurkic - was injured, but would have gotten them to the next level.

Offense/shooting
Philadelphia - Embiid - second round
Milwaukee - Lopez - conference finals (three point shooting, mostly)
Orlando - Vucevic - first round exit

Mobile defenders who can switch/defend multiple positions
Houston - Capela - second round
Boston - Horford - second round
Warriors - Green - went to finals

I don't think he's anywhere near as bad as 44th among centers in rebounding as the advanced stats would say. The Thunder were 7th in rebounding percentage as a team so Adams can't be that bad and his stats are brought down by playing with other good rebounders. He's just not a super-elite rebounder as people have suggested and even if he was, the era of Erick Dampier and DeAndre Jordan (4th among centers in rebound rate) is over. Adams is not mobile. He's not an elite (or even a good) passer. He's not able to hit a three (or even a mid-range jumper). He has no other skills while he lacks a fundamental skill (FT shooting).

KP is going to be a nightmare for opposing players, but he's going to introduce even more defensive strain to our lineup and we'll need mobile defenders next to him to be able to defend the perimeter. Getting Adams (and even Vuc) would have us playing two highly immobile players together and that just doesn't work in the NBA of 2019-2020. Adams is barely better than Powell (who himself is barely passable as a one-dimensional roll-man), who we already have for 15million dollars less.
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Old 07-15-2019, 12:51 PM   #4246
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I like Adams, but let's assume for the moment that a deal that brings him to the Mavs is not going to happen. So, where else is there an opportunity? A recurrent issue that has been brought up, is the Mavs only really have two starters (KP and Luka). The C position has been debated extensively and there is certainly a group of posters that believe a stretch 5 is what is needed (and perhaps what the MBT is looking for). There is also a strong need for a defensive minded SF that can reliably get a few rebounds and be a threat from beyond the arc. Below is a proposed four-way trade with the Mavs, Hornets, Heat, and Thunder involved:

Mavs send THJ to Charlotte and Lee to OKC
OKC sends Paul to the Heat
Heat send Olynyk to the Mavs and Dragic + Winslow to OKC
Hornets send Nic Batum + draft pick to the Mavs.

So, why do the Mavs take on what many pundits call the worst contract in the NBA (Batum)? I think you consider it because while there is absolutely no doubt Nic is overpaid, he is not worthless and actually fills several of the Mavs deficiencies. Indeed, he might fit perfectly with the Mavs for the next two years (duration of his horrendous contract). First, Batum plays very good/excellent defense. Not elite level, but he still routinely defends the best opponent wing. He also shoots above average from beyond the arc, shooting - close to 40% last season. He is a facilitator on offense, with apg consistently between 3-4 (several seasons over 5 apg). He also collects a respectable number of rebounds (career 5.3). But most of all, he has been a consistent starter at the 3 (and 2), plays off the ball, would provide veteran leadership, and be a positive locker room guy. His contract is ridiculous, but it is only for two more years (same as THJ). The point to Batum would be while he has a bad contract, his skillset fits better with the Mavs than what we have in THJ. That skillset may be worth the extra $7M per year when you are under the luxury tax.

Olynk has also played in a starting role (although I think he would come off the bench for the Mavs) and would be another threat from the 3 point line. He will get you 4-5 rebounds per game, play good defense, and compliment Powell's and Bobi's strengths.

I am not sure how much these two would contribute in terms of "additional wins" (net positive, but not sure how to predict that), but I do think they would fit well with the Carlisle system, provide some veteran stability, and most importantly be beneficial to the continuing development of Luka and KP. I see them both as heady players that will know how to make a contribution to the team and defer to the two stars. Both are on two year contracts, so they become assets at the TDL. I believe overall team defense, 3 point shooting, and rebounding are improved if you make the trade.

Four-way trades are nearly impossible to pull off, but there may be more than one-way to skin a cat.
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Old 07-15-2019, 01:20 PM   #4247
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@bobbykaralla: We have a little more clarity on the Mavs-Grizz trade involving Delon Wright thanks to @RealGM. Mavs are reportedly sending Portland's 2021 2nd and the less favorable 2023 2nd round pick belonging to Dallas and Miami.

@bobbykaralla: Dallas will have its own first-rounder this season, as well as the more favorable of GSW/Houston's 2nd (suddenly potentially a much better pick now) and Utah's 2nd. The Mavs' own 2nd is going to Philly as the final part of the 2017 Nerlens Noel trade.
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Old 07-15-2019, 05:01 PM   #4248
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I’m just going to pretend the fantasy trade for Batum is a joke. What the hell? Why don’t we trade for John Wall too?
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Old 07-15-2019, 05:07 PM   #4249
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Gonna drop this here just to watch y'all implode...

@ShamsCharania: Sources: The Cleveland Cavaliers have waived JR Smith, making him a free agent. Cavs had been attempting to move Smith all the way up until the 5 p.m. ET waiver deadline today.

@wojespn: Once guard JR Smith clears waivers, the Los Angeles Lakers are an unlikely destination, league sources tell ESPN.
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Old 07-15-2019, 05:26 PM   #4250
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Gonna drop this here just to watch y'all implode...

@ShamsCharania: Sources: The Cleveland Cavaliers have waived JR Smith, making him a free agent. Cavs had been attempting to move Smith all the way up until the 5 p.m. ET waiver deadline today.

@wojespn: Once guard JR Smith clears waivers, the Los Angeles Lakers are an unlikely destination, league sources tell ESPN.
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Old 07-16-2019, 11:02 AM   #4251
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What about Dragic, Olynyk and Jones for Hardaway and Lee?...
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Old 07-16-2019, 11:06 AM   #4252
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What about Dragic, Olynyk and Jones for Hardaway and Lee?...
No way Heat do it without us paying them big for taking on an extra 8million in 2020-2021, but I'd say yes on the Mavs side.

I just wouldn't want to include picks to sweeten it, and Miami would say no the way it's written.
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Old 07-16-2019, 06:20 PM   #4253
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New documentary, recommended watching.

"Not Mobile": The Steven Adams Story

"Feed the crow, watch him grow!"
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Old 07-16-2019, 06:51 PM   #4254
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New documentary, recommended watching.

"Not Mobile": The Steven Adams Story

"Feed the crow, watch him grow!"
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Old 07-16-2019, 08:51 PM   #4255
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LOL good stuff.

Give me Adams any day....I will keep saying this until someone from the MBT says otherwise
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Old 07-16-2019, 09:24 PM   #4256
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Be interesting to see how much Boban is played with KP. I think that would swing the Adams opinion in either direction depending on how well those two play together.
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Old 07-16-2019, 09:41 PM   #4257
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Be interesting to see how much Boban is played with KP. I think that would swing the Adams opinion in either direction depending on how well those two play together.
Boban is much much slower than Adams offensively and defensively. Having said that, I am sure we will see the together in limited minutes and Boban just signs with his size should have a positive impact on 10-15 mins per game.

I just think of the Rockets (Capela), Jazz (Gobert) and Portland (Nurkic)....all w teams with centers who are similar to Adams ( more of a traditional C) and other than Nurkic, have a more limited offensive game than Adams.

I donít see Boban as being a good measuring stick for Adams but again I think he will have a positive impact in limited minutes.
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Old 07-16-2019, 10:48 PM   #4258
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Boban is interesting. Yes, he's slow, but if the NBA's defense evolves into more zone to counter the current offensive style, then a bigger body wouldn't be nearly as handicapped by lack of speed. A big body in the middle to move from side to side and clog the paint and rebound might actually make a comeback.
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Old 07-17-2019, 01:49 AM   #4259
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Thatís Stevie Thompsonís son, one of my all-time favorite players! He played for Syracuse in the 80ís. One of the most athletic players Iíve ever seen 44inch vertical, a lot like David Thompson only zero jump shot. Literally could only dunk but a great defender too. Ironic that his son is a 3pt ace. Hope he sticks!
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Old 07-17-2019, 07:57 AM   #4260
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F*** it. You guys wore me down. Let’s trade for Steven Adams.
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Old 07-17-2019, 08:20 AM   #4261
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F*** it. You guys wore me down. Letís trade for Steven Adams.
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Old 07-17-2019, 09:54 AM   #4262
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F*** it. You guys wore me down. Letís trade for Steven Adams.
I see Adams as a TDL target when we are 30th in rebounding.
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Old 07-17-2019, 11:06 AM   #4263
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I see Adams as a TDL target when we are 30th in rebounding.
I wonder if you actually think we'll be 30th.

Doncic was 6th among SFs in rebounding
Wright was 9th among PGs in rebounding

KP wasnt great in 2017-2018 for a PF. Powell wasn't great for a center (but passable), but with threes becoming a bigger element of the NBA game, faster/smaller players and players further from the rim have become more important to the overall team rebounding and we have two of the best in the league there.

I don't think we'll be first. I don't think we'll be 30th. I estimate we will be somewhere near the middle of the pack (like 12-16)
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Old 07-17-2019, 11:43 AM   #4264
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I wonder if you actually think we'll be 30th.

Doncic was 6th among SFs in rebounding
Wright was 9th among PGs in rebounding

KP wasnt great in 2017-2018 for a PF. Powell wasn't great for a center (but passable), but with threes becoming a bigger element of the NBA game, faster/smaller players and players further from the rim have become more important to the overall team rebounding and we have two of the best in the league there.

I don't think we'll be first. I don't think we'll be 30th. I estimate we will be somewhere near the middle of the pack (like 12-16)
Some of that was sarcasm but I think we'll be a lot closer to #30 than we will be to #1.
I'm thinking 20 something but hopefully you are right.

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Old 07-17-2019, 05:45 PM   #4265
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Edit.

Oh wait, that was you too!

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Old 07-17-2019, 05:46 PM   #4266
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Old 07-18-2019, 08:26 AM   #4267
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Some of that was sarcasm but I think we'll be a lot closer to #30 than we will be to #1.
I'm thinking 20 something but hopefully you are right.
25th or so sounds about right
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Old 07-18-2019, 09:38 AM   #4268
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F*** it. You guys wore me down. Letís trade for Steven Adams.
And it didn't even take this video to do it?
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Old 07-18-2019, 09:57 AM   #4269
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And it didn't even take this video to do it?

Only 16k views? What a travesty.
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Old 07-18-2019, 09:58 AM   #4270
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Only 16k views? What a travesty.
Ha! It was a good watch. I'll take Adams in a heartbeat. As you've seen with some of the guys I've been on board with, give me all the bigs. In my humble opinion, it's really, really lazy to blatantly say you can't win in this league anymore with a traditional center as has been spewed around here for a while now. In a heartbeat I'd take him, even with his salary. Someone has to take us to our cap and he's off in 2 years. Gladly...
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Old 07-18-2019, 12:34 PM   #4271
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I understand the idea that the league is moving towards mobile centers who can hit an outside shot. The problem comes when we play teams that do have a true big man. Guys like Adams, Gobert and Capella fling Powell around like a rag doll. We lost more than a few games last year when teams so equipped just dump it down low. Either you give up points or you double team, when opens the court to outside shooters.

Maybe Boban is the solution for this...Sala certainly was not. But this is my main reason for supporting Adams. His salary is nuts, so we need to find someone who can defend, at a reasonable price.
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Old 07-18-2019, 01:14 PM   #4272
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I'd rather give Boban the 15 minutes against those few traditional centers and see if it works out better. You can always address the interest now, and then come back at the deadline and work out a deal if the rebounding and post defense is a train wreck. I just don't imagine it will be near as bad as last season, though.
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Old 07-18-2019, 01:54 PM   #4273
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KP and Powell just have to get boards... There's no way around it, box out and make it happen. The FO missed a few bigs that could have started next to KP and made life less stressful but unless we go to the scrapyard for a cheap rebounder the only thing left is to hope like hell everyone is consistent about team rebounding. Or Trade. If it's not working out, they better do something sooner than later.
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Old 07-18-2019, 03:43 PM   #4274
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A totally wacked out writer at CBSSports gave us a B+ for our off season...
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Old 07-18-2019, 03:46 PM   #4275
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Actually, the off season was great. KP didn't leave. We got some rotation players. Assuming you got a star or better in KP to stay, it was a fine year. They just promised better, and it could have been better.
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Old 07-18-2019, 03:58 PM   #4276
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At this point, I'm fine with them waiting on Adams types in the hopes that something better comes along. We were in talks for Kemba (reportedly) and then KP fell into our laps.
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Old 07-18-2019, 04:45 PM   #4277
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A totally wacked out writer at CBSSports gave us a B+ for our off season...
I think a lot of these guys don't understand each teams cap situation entirely. In the big picture: KP, Powell, Maxi, JJ, Finney-Smith ARE a part of our offseason haul, technically. How much credit is deserved for re-signing our own guys when they were essentially foregone conclusions? I guess a little? Some of these were already agreed upon. Philly, for instance, gets higher marks for re-signing Harris as a healthy UFA then we do for KP in my opinion-- although its likely both had handshake deals pre-trade.

Delon, Seth and Boban aren't on some ridiculous value deals-- they are paid about what they deserve. Its not like Mil. getting Brooke Lopez for 3m.

I think we missed out on plans A,B,C, etc. and salvaged the offseason the best we could. But letting that extra space go to waste is fairly unconscionable. Pacers got a 1st round pick to take TJ Warren. We could've grabbed board fav Daniel Gafford with that pick. Memphis got perhaps an even better asset to take on Iggy-- a guy we could actually use and have perhaps tried to trade for since the Mem deal.

It may have been that a few of these deals were close and we narrowly missed out. Maybe we got screwed over by Miami, or were caught flat-footed by the Brogdon deal. Whatever the case, the appearance is that the MBT was just a step slow and maybe overestimating their position cap-space wise. Miami gave LAC a first round pick AND a useable player on an expiring contract in Harkless.

In the context of all of that we deserve a C minus I'd say. Its not about not signing Kemba, thats wasn't entirely in their control. It's about asset mismanagement and not using all of the tools at our disposal. We even GAVE UP picks to ensure getting Delon Wright. I know its a small price and they were extras from the Roby deal.

All of our signings are on moveable contracts and we still have Lee and the TPE to potentially use later. But that doesn't change the fact that we were unable to take advantage of extra cap space. multiple teams got useable players and a pick to help other teams out. And if we are looking at having to trade for another star in the future, young players and picks are like gold.
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Old 07-18-2019, 05:18 PM   #4278
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A totally wacked out writer at CBSSports gave us a B+ for our off season...
Are you saying a B+ is bad?
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Old 07-18-2019, 09:59 PM   #4279
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Im even a homer and I think B is fair. B+ is pushing it

We got some solid talent that will help and didn’t really overpay anyone. Superstars weren’t happening and a lot of stars/bordering stars got overpaid with max deals

We lost no one, got two starting-caliber guys, and a bench guy for a bargain. No stars, unless you consider KP. That’s enough for a B for me. We are going to be significantly better next year.
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Old 07-19-2019, 09:53 AM   #4280
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I'm interested to see what we do with THJ.

His contract is bad and he has a player option for 2020 that he would probably take, so moving him would be a good option for us, but if we do keep him, he might be good as a 3rd-4th offensive option. Hasn't been consistent or very efficient, but he had good moments with the Hawks and he wasn't put in a very good situation to succeed both with the Knicks once KP went down or last year with us when we got him after getting rid of 80% of our starting lineup.

He averaged 19.1 pts last year when he was in NY (not great efficiency, but still, averaging 19 points in the NBA is tough no matter what), and looking back at his stats, he had a pretty decent efficiency with Atlanta before he went back to NY, where he wasn't forced to be the 1st scoring option

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