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Old 08-03-2011, 10:29 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Kirobaito View Post
Meh, nothing in that article is going to change what I'm doing. I strongly disagree with his notion that cardio is pointless. Honestly, if I could only do one thing at the end of this process, it would be the ability to run without stopping. I don't give the slightest damn about how much I can lift, because it is pointless to me. I want to be healthy. There is nothing that I do in my life that requires being strong.

I missed yesterday, but 8/3/2011: 178.6 lbs.
I'm with you. The comment about the Cardio is ... off base. I was gonna say idiotic, but I decided to try and not offend anyone.
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Old 08-03-2011, 05:02 PM   #42
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Before I start..(might not finish tonight), let me say that I have never been associated with a literary genius, so please don't call the dogs out on me. I am just a lowly mathematician...
First and foremost, thank you for your service. Over the past few months, I have been doing quite a bit of military-oriented reading which has helped me develop a new and profound respect for what you guys do for us. None of us would be able to live the way we do were it not for your sacrifice.

Now with formalities out of the way...

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Obviously, that would depend heavily on the goal. The only question you have to ask is, are you strong?
This is a great question one needs to ask, and answer, for themselves. From my perspective, I've always been a rather skinny dude, armed/plagued with a runaway metabolism. In the past, I confused this thinness with health. As I developed a more sophisticated understanding of my body, I came to the realization that I was in fact "skinny fat"...arguably the worst kind.

Getting back to your point, my original goal was to be 'fit'. A goal that was generic, unguided and doomed to failure. I would run, do pushups, situps...and stop when I was tired. Was I strong? Eh. I was strong-er, but from the absolute perspective of the question you posed - I remained weak. My approach was half-assed and qualitative. Here is where I think what you said makes perfect sense:

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That's why Squats, Presses, and Dead lifts are an absolute must to make sustainable and measurable gains.
You can't manage what you can't measure. By quantifying our results, by consistently drawing lines in the sand further and further away from our starting point, we are thereby able to measure improvements in relative 'strength'. This is something I've definitely taken to heart - I keep a daily Excel log of every activity I do, # reps, weight, seconds rest between reps, etc. Once you have the data, it becomes easy to measure progress.

Here's where I think we diverge though: while I agree that exercises like squats, presses and dead lifts are excellent go-tos to measure strength (and ones that I incorporate into my workouts), I also believe that there are alternative exercises that can easily be selected to fulfill the same purpose. I'm by no means supporting lily pad jumps or bunny hops (I confess to not knowing what those are but anything called a 'bunny' hop can't be that intimidating...ended up youtubing it here, not impressed). As an aside, I actually like burpees, but I can understand why a former Marine might feel he's had a lifetime's worth...

I think exercises like this, that do come off as gimmicky, belong on one end of the spectrum. My contention is that they are designed to be challenging, but eminently do-able for the beginning fitness enthusiast. My objection is that they should not be aggregated (and perhaps this was not Wells' intention) with exercises such as these, which I categorize as 'muscle confusion' when done in circuit:

Single-arm shoulder press with dumbbell lunge
Dumbbell straight-leg deadlift to row

It's exercises like the above that I refer to when I contend there are 'evolved' alternatives to traditional compound exercises, and when I made my previous reference to the fact that I found Wells' article parochial even as he preached against "reactionary elements". I don't think they are shortcuts, and I have definitely found that using them (and their cousins) have helped increase my strength as measured by the amount that I can press or squat.

One of the things in your response that really caught my eye was your multiple references to "behind closed doors". I'm curious as to what you mean by that. I'm guessing what you mean is that these truly strong individuals have paid their dues by using the, "I lift things up and put them down" approach (partially joking). Squat, press and lift until you reach a certain threshold, at which point it becomes okay to branch out into other exercises? I think it's just a definitional issue but would appreciate some clarification.

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I'll be honest, I'm still confused but I'll give it a shot, anyway... Hypothetically, if there does exist this so called "muscle confusion", it's evolution as you say came about from squats, dead lifts, and presses. What am I missing here? Why would you try "muscle confusion" on a weak bodied person? Why not just put that person under a bar and have them lift it? Come back the next time and lift it again, but with an incremental weight change. Come back again, etc... until that weak body person is strong(er). Then you can take that strong person and incorporate new goals that might connect a sport or just being able to move a refrigerator down a flight of stairs..
I feel 'muscle confusion' (for simplicity, let's refer to this as Route B) folks are just taking a different path towards the same destination (vs. squats, lifts, presses = Route A). By combining multiple exercises into one movement, we reduce the necessary time commitment (a major constraint in most of our lives) as well as, depending on the exercise, create incremental aerobic stress on the body (a benefit Wells dismisses at the end of his paper). Essentially, we are able to do more in less time, which for me means I can accomplish even more in the same amount of time, a not insignificant benefit. Further, the benefits of aerobic exercise to the cardiovascular system should not be downplayed.

Bigger picture, I admit I am not in a position to make a definitive assertion that Route B will produce a stronger person than Route A. In the absence of empirical evidence, I'm not sure either of us are. And this brings us back to the question of goals. I will never, in all likelihood, need to move a refrigerator down a flight of stairs (I know that was an arbitrary example but stick with me). Just as you would, perhaps, never need additional strength in your quads to prevent a tight IT band from pulling your patella out-of-line (an issue I had in the past). As normal Joe's, you and I are not blessed with the same bodies as the stars we root for, nor are we cursed with the same responsibilities on the court or field. Some folks on this board simply want to lose weight, and to be perfectly honest, I think Route B would be better suited given the increased emphasis on cardio in addition to building muscle mass. But if my only goal was to be able to say, "I can bench 220x10 today whereas 2 weeks ago I was at 180x10", then certainly, Route A would be the way to go. I'm in a difficult position because I use both A and B. My issue is the criticism Wells brings to bear on the latter. While I share his distaste for gimmicks, I think he takes it too far and shortchanges a legitimate alternative methodology.


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Ok, so you're wanting me to completely ignore this paragraph? Because there is a lot going on here that fuels the fire.

Ok, so here you didn't answer my question. What muscles does a proper squat leave out? The answer is none unless you're under the impression that a squat should be done above parallel. (not assuming you don't know but please clarify your understanding)
The answer is none, my criticism was never of the squat. Given how much mass and strength we carry around in our legs and glutes (and the amount of positive stress it puts into strengthening the lower back), huge part of my workout. The intention of my original sentence was to say, in essence, isolation exercises and machines are terrible. Words got jumbled around and cut out entirely, and the sentence became convoluted. Bernardos was kind enough to point it out for me so I was able to at least not look a complete idiot. Cut a guy some slack

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I could barely dunk the basketball in high school at 6'3 175lbs. I'm 240 lbs and last month I dunked a basketball.
Awesome dude...I'm 6'0, 170 right now. Goal is to put on 10 more lbs of muscle but I'm having issues. Eating myself out of house and home and it's starting to piss me off.

You might find this interesting (it was a nice wake-up for me). Men's Health (yeah yeah, I subscribe) recently had an article entitled, "10 Standards to Assess Your Fitness Level". As you are much further along than me on the fitness trail, would love to hear your feedback on it. I found this to be a really interesting list of criterion (some traditional, some not) by which to measure ourselves on a relative and absolute basis. I'm sure all readers of this thread would benefit from your insight.
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Old 08-05-2011, 12:06 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by orangedays View Post

This is a great question one needs to ask, and answer, for themselves. From my perspective, I've always been a rather skinny dude, armed/plagued with a runaway metabolism. In the past, I confused this thinness with health. As I developed a more sophisticated understanding of my body, I came to the realization that I was in fact "skinny fat"...arguably the worst kind.

******I think this is a natural response for a lot of guys. We have been exposed to airbrushed abs in just about every magazine on the shelf. It's unrealistic, not healthy, and in no way indicative of strength. When I decided to educate myself properly, I found that most my ideas of fitness were completely wrong.

Getting back to your point, my original goal was to be 'fit'. A goal that was generic, unguided and doomed to failure. I would run, do pushups, situps...and stop when I was tired. Was I strong?

******I think what most people are ignorant of is the importance of not only eating good food, but eating enough in general to make gains when they train like you describe.

You can't manage what you can't measure. By quantifying our results, by consistently drawing lines in the sand further and further away from our starting point, we are thereby able to measure improvements in relative 'strength'. This is something I've definitely taken to heart - I keep a daily Excel log of every activity I do, # reps, weight, seconds rest between reps, etc. Once you have the data, it becomes easy to measure progress.

******Absolutely!

Here's where I think we diverge though: while I agree that exercises like squats, presses and dead lifts are excellent go-tos to measure strength (and ones that I incorporate into my workouts), I also believe that there are alternative exercises that can easily be selected to fulfill the same purpose. I'm by no means supporting lily pad jumps or bunny hops (I confess to not knowing what those are but anything called a 'bunny' hop can't be that intimidating...ended up youtubing it here, not impressed). As an aside, I actually like burpees, but I can understand why a former Marine might feel he's had a lifetime's worth...

******Since you mention this, I want to direct your attention to a movement that is rumbling throughout the military. You might be aware from your reading that things don't change much in the military. Sometimes stupid is as stupid does... But, in particular units, officers, soldiers, marines, etc are becoming more educated in the bigger picture of what is necessary to survive and fulfill their duties in the face of adversity on the battlefield. Yes, you guessed it. Are we strong?

Why Does the Army Want Me Weak? - this is a primer

Combat Worst-Case Scenario
An Argument for Strength Training in the Military
-


I think exercises like this, that do come off as gimmicky, belong on one end of the spectrum. My contention is that they are designed to be challenging, but eminently do-able for the beginning fitness enthusiast. My objection is that they should not be aggregated (and perhaps this was not Wells' intention) with exercises such as these, which I categorize as 'muscle confusion' when done in circuit:
Single-arm shoulder press with dumbbell lunge
Dumbbell straight-leg deadlift to row
It's exercises like the above that I refer to when I contend there are 'evolved' alternatives to traditional compound exercises, and when I made my previous reference to the fact that I found Wells' article parochial even as he preached against "reactionary elements". I don't think they are shortcuts, and I have definitely found that using them (and their cousins) have helped increase my strength as measured by the amount that I can press or squat.

*****I can't speak for Wells on this but my take on this is keep it simple. As a novice, I don't need variety to instigate growth. I need quality. And in my opinion, quality are lifts that require my whole body. I apologize, but I will beat this horse until its blue. The "low bar back" SQUAT is the lift that will, when done correctly, make you as physically strong and vital a human being as you can be. BUT, the most important part is you have to do it correctly.

One of the things in your response that really caught my eye was your multiple references to "behind closed doors". I'm curious as to what you mean by that.

*****Out of the public eye... Every high school kid that made it to the collegiate level, and then to the pro level has spent countless hours working on their craft. In this process, they got under a bar, pushed a bar, pulled a bar, or lifted a bar with a substantial load. You might be to young to know the details, but until 1990-91 season the Detroit Pistons beat the shit out of Jordan on the court. If you compare the Jordan in 89 with the Jordan in 90, it's evident that he started strength training. I was in high school and remember seeing him at the free throw line that year. He looked like a different player. Anyway, my point was these athletes have already done what I am advocating...


I'm guessing what you mean is that these truly strong individuals have paid their dues by using the, "I lift things up and put them down" approach (partially joking). Squat, press and lift until you reach a certain threshold, at which point it becomes okay to branch out into other exercises?

*****Exactly!



I feel 'muscle confusion' (for simplicity, let's refer to this as Route B) folks are just taking a different path towards the same destination (vs. squats, lifts, presses = Route A). By combining multiple exercises into one movement, we reduce the necessary time commitment (a major constraint in most of our lives) as well as, depending on the exercise, create incremental aerobic stress on the body (a benefit Wells dismisses at the end of his paper).

***** OK, but how does incremental aerobic stress vs anaerobic exercise help you achieve your fitness goals? From the standpoint of a long distance runner whose craft is to perform under those aerobic conditions, yes, of course it should be in their training. My point (Wells point maybe) is that we don't need to distinguish the benefits of aerobic exercise from anaerobic. The former is not necessary. I know it's been beat in our heads that to burn calories/lose weight/get ripped - we need to run our ass off or jump up in the air, twist, and repeat at least twice a week (just throwing that out there). It's so far from the truth, yet, we have been conditioned to think this way by every PT in a globo gym. Not to mention every infomercial. Yes, that sells.. It sells because it's easy to dictate, easy to train someone to do, and very easy to modify to keep the interest of the poor sap in front of the TV. But, what happens is those individuals who stop seeing results, quit. And they are right back in this thread asking what went wrong? Dammit, I am one of them...I have wasted so much of my time doing stupid shit that doesn't make sense yet I just kept on plugging.

Essentially, we are able to do more in less time, which for me means I can accomplish even more in the same amount of time, a not insignificant benefit. Further, the benefits of aerobic exercise to the cardiovascular system should not be downplayed.

Bigger picture, I admit I am not in a position to make a definitive assertion that Route B will produce a stronger person than Route A. In the absence of empirical evidence, I'm not sure either of us are. And this brings us back to the question of goals. I will never, in all likelihood, need to move a refrigerator down a flight of stairs (I know that was an arbitrary example but stick with me). Just as you would, perhaps, never need additional strength in your quads to prevent a tight IT band from pulling your patella out-of-line (an issue I had in the past). As normal Joe's, you and I are not blessed with the same bodies as the stars we root for, nor are we cursed with the same responsibilities on the court or field. Some folks on this board simply want to lose weight, and to be perfectly honest, I think Route B would be better suited given the increased emphasis on cardio in addition to building muscle mass. But if my only goal was to be able to say, "I can bench 220x10 today whereas 2 weeks ago I was at 180x10", then certainly, Route A would be the way to go. I'm in a difficult position because I use both A and B. My issue is the criticism Wells brings to bear on the latter. While I share his distaste for gimmicks, I think he takes it too far and shortchanges a legitimate alternative methodology.

*****Fair enough... But I think the message is correct. Unfortunately, it's hard to do Route A... It is very hard to get under that bar and feel like your eyeballs are going to pop out of your skull. I certainly don't do it for the "numbers" game. The numerical gains are just the indicators that I am getting stronger each time I go into the weight room.

I do it because it really works. Our bodies are meant to do that kind of work. I have a pretty interesting theory about mankind evolving over the last two centuries. I think the invention of the "throne" has destroyed the full development of our hips, hamstrings, abductors, and caused some of the bowel problems we have today. We are meant to squat. It's our natural position. We have squatted for thousands of years. Have you ever taken a shit in the woods? Aside from getting it on your pants, wasn't it the easiest thing you've ever done? LOL... Just think about it...




The answer is none, my criticism was never of the squat. Given how much mass and strength we carry around in our legs and glutes (and the amount of positive stress it puts into strengthening the lower back), huge part of my workout. The intention of my original sentence was to say, in essence, isolation exercises and machines are terrible. Words got jumbled around and cut out entirely, and the sentence became convoluted. Bernardos was kind enough to point it out for me so I was able to at least not look a complete idiot. Cut a guy some slack

*****Agree.



Awesome dude...I'm 6'0, 170 right now. Goal is to put on 10 more lbs of muscle but I'm having issues. Eating myself out of house and home and it's starting to piss me off.

*****Keep eating and keep putting weight on the bar. Even if its micro loading 2lbs per workout, you're getting stronger.

You might find this interesting (it was a nice wake-up for me). Men's Health (yeah yeah, I subscribe) recently had an article entitled, "10 Standards to Assess Your Fitness Level".

*****I'll check it out.

As you are much further along than me on the fitness trail, would love to hear your feedback on it. I found this to be a really interesting list of criterion (some traditional, some not) by which to measure ourselves on a relative and absolute basis. I'm sure all readers of this thread would benefit from your insight.
keep it coming...Strength and Honor!

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Old 08-05-2011, 12:41 PM   #44
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Interesting discussion here. I think that Wells article would have been a lot better if he had stuck to discussing the relative benefits of different kinds of strength training and not also tried to argue that strength training is more useful than cardio. Some pretty wild and inaccurate assumptions run under that second argument.
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Old 08-05-2011, 04:12 PM   #45
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Wow, some great discussion and info. I just returned from a 43 high school reunion and after losing 32 pounds, I found out that the women there wanted a husband, or relief from their overweight & boring husbands. Good thing I am so true to my bride and was ever so cool, or I sure could have got in trouble. Oh well, being over 60 still has it risks if you are in shape.
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Old 08-06-2011, 12:33 PM   #46
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Some pretty wild and inaccurate assumptions run under that second argument.
Please elaborate and explain...
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Old 08-07-2011, 05:51 PM   #47
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OK, so I'm gonna start burpee workouts tomorrow. This is going to be painful.
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Old 08-07-2011, 06:20 PM   #48
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OK, so I'm gonna start burpee workouts tomorrow. This is going to be painful.
Just a tip: (take it or leave it) When you're going into the squat position get in the habit of pointing your toes out at 30 degrees. Track your knees with your toes. You'll be able to go down below parallel (like you're taking a shit). This will activate the stretch reflex of your hamstrings/abductors and take pressure off your knees. You'll get a natural bounce out of the bottom. Your knees should not be burning. That doesn't mean anything except you're doing it wrong. Before I educated myself I always thought squats were bad for your knees. If done properly your knees have nothing to do with it. Give it a try with a few air squats to get used to the movement. Exagerate pointing your knees out just to get the idea.
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Old 08-07-2011, 06:22 PM   #49
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Think about what a bull frog looks like if he was jumping while you watched from underneath.
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Old 08-07-2011, 08:33 PM   #50
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Please elaborate and explain...
Equating strength with "durability," for one, is pretty suspect. To the extent it's true at all, it's probably true only as to durability against mechanical ailments (e.g., being strong could make you less likely to strain a muscle, tear a ligament, etc.).

I can't speak for you, but those things are pretty far down my list of ailments I'd like durability against.
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Old 08-07-2011, 10:24 PM   #51
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Equating strength with "durability," for one, is pretty suspect. To the extent it's true at all, it's probably true only as to durability against mechanical ailments (e.g., being strong could make you less likely to strain a muscle, tear a ligament, etc.).

I can't speak for you, but those things are pretty far down my list of ailments I'd like durability against.
I think your definition of strength function is different from mine. Can't speak for the multitudes but, anyway... Muscle is a function of strength. The stronger a muscle, the better that muscle is at working the joint it's operating. (after all that is what a muscle does, right?). That applies to everything you do.

Durability is more beneficial than you give credit towards. You can think of muscle as a coat of armor that protects you from life's torments. I have a friend who was in a motor cycle accident. He's a very strong and muscular dude. The doctor said besides the helmet, his muscular stature saved him from a lot worse that could have happened.

It's one thing to be defensive about your beliefs of how being fit is defined which dictates your plan. It's another to not acknowledge the benefits of being strong.

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Old 08-07-2011, 10:53 PM   #52
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Just a tip: (take it or leave it) When you're going into the squat position get in the habit of pointing your toes out at 30 degrees. Track your knees with your toes. You'll be able to go down below parallel (like you're taking a shit). This will activate the stretch reflex of your hamstrings/abductors and take pressure off your knees. You'll get a natural bounce out of the bottom. Your knees should not be burning. That doesn't mean anything except you're doing it wrong. Before I educated myself I always thought squats were bad for your knees. If done properly your knees have nothing to do with it. Give it a try with a few air squats to get used to the movement. Exagerate pointing your knees out just to get the idea.
I'll quote myself because I'm awesome and this might solidify my point... If you must do these burpees or WODs or whatever, then you need to do the movements correctly. Which means you need to educate yourself on how your body is supposed to work. That's all. If you want to do air squats for the rest of your life, then do them correctly...
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Old 08-07-2011, 11:05 PM   #53
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I think your definition of strength function is different from mine. Can't speak for the multitudes but, anyway... Muscle is a function of strength. The stronger a muscle, the better that muscle is at working the joint it's operating. (after all that is what a muscle does, right?). That applies to everything you do.

Durability is more beneficial than you give credit towards. You can think of muscle as a coat of armor that protects you from life's torments. I have a friend who was in a motor cycle accident. He's a very strong and muscular dude. The doctor said besides the helmet, his muscular stature saved him from a lot worse that could have happened.

It's one thing to be defensive about your beliefs of how being fit is defined which dictates your plan. It's another to not acknowledge the benefits of being strong.
Ok, but you're just confirming exactly what I said, which is that to the extent being strong promotes "durability," it promotes durability against mechanical ailments. We can add "car wreck," "plane crash," "gunfire," "street brawl," or whatever else you want as the mechanical forces we're protecting against. But the fundamental limitation remains the same.

I'm absolutely not refusing to acknowledge the benefits of being strong. Being strong is very useful in itself, which is exactly why he doesn't need to overreach and start claiming that strength training is vastly preferable to cardio because our goal should be to "make our bodies so they don't break." Please.

Like I said, that's the glaring flaw in the article. Strong is strong. Strong is a good thing. Now, Wells, tell us the most effective ways to improve our strength. But don't sit there and rationalize some barely sensible explanation as to why strength training is far and away the best kind of exercise for everyone. It's preposterous.

As for your last comment, sorry, but that's completely offbase. I strength train 3-4 times a week and do almost no cardio whatsoever, except as incidental to playing sports sometimes. I focus primarily on compound movements using large and multiple muscle groups, just like I'm sure he would recommend. This has nothing to do with me or wanting to defend how I workout. His article is full of faulty logic, which is not even remotely surprising given what he does and his biases.
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Old 08-07-2011, 11:09 PM   #54
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Ok, but you're just confirming exactly what I said, which is that to the extent being strong promotes "durability," it promotes durability against mechanical ailments. We can add "car wreck," "plane crash," "gunfire," "street brawl," or whatever else you want as the mechanical forces we're protecting against. But the fundamental limitation remains the same.

I'm absolutely not refusing to acknowledge the benefits of being strong. Being strong is very useful in itself, which is exactly why he doesn't need to overreach and start claiming that strength training is vastly preferable to cardio because our goal should be to "make our bodies so they don't break." Please.

Like I said, that's the glaring flaw in the article. Strong is strong. Strong is a good thing. Now, Wells, tell us what you think are the most effective ways to improve our strength. But don't sit there and rationalize some barely sensible explanation as to why strength training is far and away the best kind of exercise for everyone.

As for your last comment, sorry, but that's completely offbase. I strength train 3-4 times a week and do almost no cardio whatsoever, except as incidental to playing sports sometimes. This has nothing to do with me or wanting to defend how I workout. His article is full of faulty logic, which is not even remotely surprising given what he does and his biases.
This makes a lot more sense than your previous post. I was trying to be as tactful as I could... I didn't even know where to go with that.. Anyway, I'll take a look at what you are saying and respond.

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Old 08-07-2011, 11:18 PM   #55
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This makes a lot more sense than your previous post. I was trying to be as tactful as I could... I didn't even know where to go with that..
I'll be tactful in return and not explain why my first post makes perfect sense when read correctly.
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Old 08-07-2011, 11:55 PM   #56
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I'm absolutely not refusing to acknowledge the benefits of being strong. Being strong is very useful in itself, which is exactly why he doesn't need to overreach and start claiming that strength training is vastly preferable to cardio because our goal should be to "make our bodies so they don't break." Please.
The whole article is why strength training should be the approach everyone takes. Cardio is a subset of strength and conditioning. That's the point. There isn't any overreaching taking place.

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Old 08-08-2011, 12:20 AM   #57
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The whole article is why strength training should be the approach everyone takes. Cardio is a subset of strength and conditioning. That's the point. There isn't any overreaching taking place.
Yes, yes there is. It's right here:

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In my experience, strength training is more useful for
humans over the long haul. The goal of training in general should be to develop a robust, injury resistant body that is harder to break. Strength training accomplishes this goal. As useful as it may be, cardiorespiratory training does not.
Overreaching. And frankly, I find it quite humorous how the guy cites "his experience"---which spans less than one lifetime---in reaching a conclusion about what's good for all humanity "over the long haul."
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Old 08-08-2011, 07:43 AM   #58
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Old 08-08-2011, 10:46 AM   #59
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Yes, yes there is. It's right here:



Overreaching. And frankly, I find it quite humorous how the guy cites "his experience"---which spans less than one lifetime---in reaching a conclusion about what's good for all humanity "over the long haul."
His argument is that a majority of the people who try and mimic the training goals of the magazines, infomercials, and even CrossFit is not beneficial to the overall health and fitness of the individual. Instead of trying to please the aethstetic needs of our psychy with trying to get washboard abs, bulging biceps, or an unhealthy bf% you need to build a foundational strength. He's obviously not talking to you. He's talking to the poor sap who is ignorant and misguided by bad information or lack of.
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Old 08-08-2011, 11:54 PM   #60
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Old 08-09-2011, 07:24 AM   #61
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His argument is that a majority of the people who try and mimic the training goals of the magazines, infomercials, and even CrossFit is not beneficial to the overall health and fitness of the individual. Instead of trying to please the aethstetic needs of our psychy with trying to get washboard abs, bulging biceps, or an unhealthy bf% you need to build a foundational strength. He's obviously not talking to you. He's talking to the poor sap who is ignorant and misguided by bad information or lack of.
It sounds as if you're having difficulties with your argument at this point.
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Old 08-09-2011, 10:50 AM   #62
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It sounds as if you're having difficulties with your argument at this point.
How unpredictable of you Murphy.
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Old 08-09-2011, 05:48 PM   #63
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His argument is that a majority of the people who try and mimic the training goals of the magazines, infomercials, and even CrossFit is not beneficial to the overall health and fitness of the individual. Instead of trying to please the aethstetic needs of our psychy with trying to get washboard abs, bulging biceps, or an unhealthy bf% you need to build a foundational strength. He's obviously not talking to you. He's talking to the poor sap who is ignorant and misguided by bad information or lack of.
To be clear, I actually completely agree with a lot of his argument. I've always learned to build a strength-training routine primarily around compound movements focusing on large & multiple muscle groups (namely, as you said, presses, squats, and dead lifts). I'm not a big muscly dude by any means, but I've always tried to build my routine around that basic concept.

My only problem with his article is he occasionally goes a step beyond that point and tries to subjugate cardio work to strength training. And he's not just focusing on specific training programs he thinks are bogus--he puts cardio work as a whole below strength training as a whole. That's where he overreaches, and that's where he loses me even though I don't do much cardio myself.

I get that he's ultimately advocating for a training program that incorporates both, but I think his comments on the relative merits of the two are unnecessary, unhelpful, and lacking in sound premise. And again, that's too bad because I agree with you that the bulk of his article contains a very salient point.
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Old 08-10-2011, 08:57 AM   #64
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8/10/2011 - 178.8 lbs

It's on page 1, I think, but that's actually an increase of .5 from last Wednesday (which is my new check-in day). Vomit (except not). I broke my diet on Friday and Saturday, though I don't think I did by *that* much, and I was under my caloric budget the other five days. I even exercised three days during the week. I don't know what happened, but I'll keep chugging along.
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Old 08-10-2011, 09:14 AM   #65
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My weight fluctuates by a considerable amount...I have gotten to the point where I only look at the scales on weigh-in day* (monday mornings). The slow trickle of decreasing poundage over the last few weeks feels about right -- I'm a notch down on my belt anyway.

*gonna have to change weigh in day because I'll be traveling for a few weeks. Think I'll make it Thursday morn beginning tomorrow.
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Old 08-11-2011, 08:34 AM   #66
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Old 08-11-2011, 11:56 AM   #67
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Yep...the weight thing can be a bit of a frustration.

I've gone from 261 to 180...today, I'm 186 ... up 6 in less than 10 days, but still getting lean.

Hydration levels can cause my weight to go/down 3-6 pounds in a sitting.

I've had HUGE success mixing up the workouts (Cardio and Resistance) This whole Muscle Confusion thing really works...at least for my body it does. It's even helped me to gain speed and strength!!!

I know its still slow, but I am around a 10-11 minute mile for a sustained pace over 5-10 miles. Considering that I started nearly 2 years ago at about a 20-30 minute mile pace.

The strength, I'm up to 50+ Push Ups without a break and 10 Chin Ups without a break...up from 5-10 Push Ups nearly 2 years ago, and virtually -0- Chin Ups!!!

The trick, is rather simple. It's the old saying of one day at a time. One Workout at a time, and one meal at a time. Focus and Discipline...when I'm motivated its no problem, when I find myself distracted, I ask myself...what do I value more, the fitness goal or whatever is the distraction at the time.

Truth be known, the distraction does win once in a while...but never twice in a row and no more than once in a week!!!

I also have to accept that at my age and with my knees, I can no longer do sports that require agility (Soccer, Basketball, etc...) I have no ACL's and if I plant and twist, my knee goes. Thus my fitness is straight forward or backwards, and I modify when I do leg work by recognizing my own limits and working out within those boundaries.

I'm stronger today at 43, then back when I was in the Army. My core is stronger...but, at 43, I do encounter limitations that my old 18 year old self didn't worry about. Recovery/Cool Down time is a bit longer now...stretching is more important...hydration...all those things that I took for granted in my younger days.

That being said, fitness is possible for ANYONE and EVERYONE, if they want it.

So best of success to each of you, find your sweet spots and enjoy the rides!!!
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Old 08-15-2011, 12:24 AM   #68
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been on atkins for a while now. it's amazing. weight is just falling off. soon it'll be time to start lifting
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Old 08-15-2011, 09:49 AM   #69
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Old 08-15-2011, 10:12 AM   #70
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been on atkins for a while now. it's amazing. weight is just falling off. soon it'll be time to start lifting
So that's working well for you? I just imagine that'd be miserable.

A peril of my diet as it stands right now: I had a physical a couple of weeks ago, and according to my blood test, I have a pretty crazy vitamin D deficiency. I have little dairy intake to speak of (too fattening, and causes acne) and have never eaten much in fish and eggs. I'm also low on B12, but I don't know why that is the case.
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Old 08-15-2011, 05:18 PM   #71
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Your body makes more vitamin d from direct sun exposure than you can eat. Windows block this effect. Of course the sun causes skin cancer, but vitamin d deficiency is linked to many other forms of cancer.
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Old 08-15-2011, 09:49 PM   #72
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Your body makes more vitamin d from direct sun exposure than you can eat. Windows block this effect. Of course the sun causes skin cancer, but vitamin d deficiency is linked to many other forms of cancer.
Yeah, but does anyone go outside anymore?
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Old 08-15-2011, 10:39 PM   #73
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Yeah, but does anyone go outside anymore?
Not without sunblock. Supplements are easier. They worked for my dad's vitamin d levels.
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Old 08-15-2011, 10:49 PM   #74
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Im at 198. I've been eating too much pasta and bread lately. I've also been drinking too much alcohol, but I've been exercising more, so I haven't gained any weight.
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Old 08-16-2011, 08:34 AM   #75
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Going outside is so 1990's.
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Old 08-16-2011, 10:44 PM   #76
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So that's working well for you? I just imagine that'd be miserable.
It's not. I can eat until I feel full and I never feel hungry anymore. Plus I have energy that I never felt before. I feel incredible.

I had tried everything before this. Weight Watchers, slim fast, calorie counting, grapefruit eating, exercising (just made me eat more), nothing ever worked and I was miserable and hungry every day.
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Old 08-17-2011, 02:32 AM   #77
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Going outside is so 1990's.
Murphy, George Strait is 90's.
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Old 08-18-2011, 09:01 AM   #78
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Old 08-18-2011, 09:50 AM   #79
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what went wrong?
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Old 08-19-2011, 11:00 AM   #80
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what went wrong?
I think it's mostly just a change from weighing in on Monday mornings to Thursday mornings (schedule thing, I'm traveling some right now and not near a scale on Monday morns). I've been doing about an hour and half to 2 hour ride on Sundays so I think I'm probably a couple of pounds lighter Monday mornings because of water weight (or lack thereof).

Regardless of what the scale says, I'm to the point that I'm going to have to get a new belt because the last notch in my favorite belt, one that I've been wearing for years, is now too big. Also, I mentioned earlier that I was in horrible shape and I'm just as interested in getting my wind up as I am dropping pounds....

....true story....

A couple of months ago I took a mountain bike beginners' *clinic* (freebie kinda thing, well worth the money). After the clinic, the group was split into two for rides out on the trail. One group was to go on a faster and more arduous ride and the other was expected to take an easier course at a more measured pace. All the flat-bellied younger males started gathering for the faster ride while the fat women and 8 year old kids and the handicapped guy started making their way to the easier ride.

My brain knew that I needed to join the fat women and the parapalegic, but my silly ego still thinks I'm a flat bellied 20-something athlete. Long story not too much longer, I stayed with the fast group for the duration of the ride, loaded my bike into my car, drove out of the park and promptly unloaded my breakfast all over Collins Street in Arlington.

But that was then...now I can easily make the same ride twice before hurling, so at least my endurance is way up.
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