Dallas-Mavs.com Forums - View Single Post - Dirk All-NBA 2nd Team, Nash All-NBA 3rd Team

Epitome22 · 05-06-2003, 10:00 PM

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sorry to tell ya but its pretty average percantile for a post up player,

(E) There are alot of big men with a 50% FG percentage but those guys aren't taking near the amount of FG attempts that guys like Duncan and Shaq take.

have you seen shaq?i promise you shaq is being doubled up everytime he touches the ball but he manages to come through with 57%,i think,of his shots.
you cant compare a perimeter player to a post player percantages.
you'll probably find Zidrunas Ilgouskas or almost any other center IN THE WORLD having very high percantages.
i still say that Dirk is much scarier to a defender,and is by far a better option on offense.

(E) That's because Shaq is good too! The fact that Shaq has such a high percentage shot despite the number of FG attempts he makes and the amount of time he spends with the ball in his hands is the reason he's such a dominating and coveted player. As for not being able to compare a post player to a perimeter player's percentages, yes you can! Of course it would be silly to say Eddy Curry is a better shooter than Dirk Nowitzki because he shoots 50%, but if 2 people have a comparable amount of FG attempts and scoring average than you can most certainly compare their percentages.

FYI. Illgauskas shot 44% this season.

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criticizing someone's passing ability

hehe,all those assists?duncan delivers 3.9 assists per game,0.9 more than Dirk.

"By that logic, we'd better dp something about this huge overrating of John Stockton. How could he not dish out all those assists?"

(E) I was referring to John Stockton. Not Duncan.

and my point is,the more you have it in your heands,your chances of an assists,rises,so,if stockton at the prime of his career,got 15 minutes a game,he would still deliver about 4 assists per game,not 13-14,but a good ratio to the minutes he played.
so if Dirk was almost the entire offensive tool you had,and he got the ball as much as TD,than his apg ratio would have been defenitly bigger,and it isnt that hard tieing TD's ratio of 3.9.

(E) From what I've seen, I'd give Duncan the definite edge in terms of passing ability. If you think Dirk would match his numbers if he handled the ball more, that's certainly an entitled to opinion. I'm sure it isn't hard, and if it isn't, then Dirk should match it. Until then...

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when making an ugly ass shot,10 feet from the board,be as hard to make as a fadeaway jumper,that dirk shoots nearly everytime,than you could say their making the same mental effort on offense.you have no idea how much it takes out of him to make that shot every single time,to not have a post up game yet still have high percantages.

(E)That has nothing to do with mental effort and once again this is poor reasoning. Punishing Duncan because Dirk has to earn all his points without a strong post game makes no more sense than Punishing Nowitzki because Duncan can't hit a jumpshot outside 11 feet.I'm sorry but if Dirk has to work Harder to get his points than Duncan does for argument's sake (which I don't agree) then that isn't Duncan's problem it's Nowitzki's. And this still has nothing to do with rebounding.

<< TexWith respect to Dirk, he's a good rebounder, I don't remember him ever being at more than 10.4 rebounds a game during the season whereas Duncan has been averaging 12-13 rebounds a game all season long just like he does every season he plays in. Secondly, as for concentrating on making shots, are you honestly trying to say, with the core of support that Dirk has, that there's some added pressure on Dirk that ISN'T on the leader of a two man show like Duncan? If anything Duncan has to focus more on getting points for his team than Dirk does and even though pulling down rebounds(90% of which are defensive) is hardly some antithesis to focusing on scoring points, Since Duncan manages to do both that would in actuality makes the case for Duncan being the better player at this juncture stronger. >>

first of,Dirk did average 12 rebounds a game,so i apreciate you remaining with TD's stats and let me do Dirk.

(E) Sorry bro But I'm not just going to take your word for it. Can you document some statistical source from the season showing Dirk pulling down 12 boards a game?

its not about PRESSURE!!!i have no doubt Duncan is more importent to SA than Dirk to Dallas,and that Duncan is pressured much more than Dirk on offense,to get the bucket.
were coming back to the same point i mentioned earlier,Duncan doesnt have to put all his efforts on getting the shot,or making it accurete,

(E) Once again you are not making sense. Duncan doesen't put any less effort into putting points on the board than Dirk does. And because of the lack of support Duncan has compared to Dirk, it could be argued that he puts more effort considering the types of defenses he faces.

his ugly ass shot is a 10 feeter,and with high percantile of it,it doesnt get the same amount of focus and consitration that banking a fadeaway needs,so you cant expect BOTH of them to be that fresh going on defense.

(E) If your argument is that shooting a fadeaway and making requires more effort and concentration than backing someone down and banking one off the glass left side basline then that shows you have little understanding of the diffuculties of post play, footwork,countermoves etc. And as for not being able to expect them both to be fresh on defense, yes you can. Forget Tim Duncan, what about guards in the league like Gary Payton,Kobe Bryant etc? These guys expel more effort getting their own shot and making it than even Nowitzki does, yet they still manage to be top tier defenders. If Nowitzki can't do both then once again, that's Dirk's fault, not Duncan's. Let's take TD out of the mix completly. Rather than compare Dirk to a guy who puts up comparable offensive production, what about a guy like Mutumbo? Mutumbo doesen't put near the effort into his offensive game Nowitzki or Duncan do. That doesen't change the fact that Mutumbo, in his prime, a 4 time defensive player of the year, is much more of a defensive presence than both of them.

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when the other team shoots?you mean Dirks defensive boards??he has about 0.7 defensive boards less per game than duncan,so im sorry i did quite get your point. >>

?? You said that Nowitzki wasn't even a worse defender than Duncan, it's just that Nowitzki concentrated on offense whereas Duncan concentrated on rebounds. Since 90% of rebounds come when the other team has possession and any concentration on offense at that juncture would be ineffective at best (since you are on defense) I asked you to clarify what the hell you mean't. I am no closer to understanding.

05-06-2003, 10:00 PM	#33
Epitome22 Golden Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 1,827	<< << >> sorry to tell ya but its pretty average percantile for a post up player, (E) There are alot of big men with a 50% FG percentage but those guys aren't taking near the amount of FG attempts that guys like Duncan and Shaq take. have you seen shaq?i promise you shaq is being doubled up everytime he touches the ball but he manages to come through with 57%,i think,of his shots. you cant compare a perimeter player to a post player percantages. you'll probably find Zidrunas Ilgouskas or almost any other center IN THE WORLD having very high percantages. i still say that Dirk is much scarier to a defender,and is by far a better option on offense. (E) That's because Shaq is good too! The fact that Shaq has such a high percentage shot despite the number of FG attempts he makes and the amount of time he spends with the ball in his hands is the reason he's such a dominating and coveted player. As for not being able to compare a post player to a perimeter player's percentages, yes you can! Of course it would be silly to say Eddy Curry is a better shooter than Dirk Nowitzki because he shoots 50%, but if 2 people have a comparable amount of FG attempts and scoring average than you can most certainly compare their percentages. FYI. Illgauskas shot 44% this season. << >> criticizing someone's passing ability hehe,all those assists?duncan delivers 3.9 assists per game,0.9 more than Dirk. "By that logic, we'd better dp something about this huge overrating of John Stockton. How could he not dish out all those assists?" (E) I was referring to John Stockton. Not Duncan. and my point is,the more you have it in your heands,your chances of an assists,rises,so,if stockton at the prime of his career,got 15 minutes a game,he would still deliver about 4 assists per game,not 13-14,but a good ratio to the minutes he played. so if Dirk was almost the entire offensive tool you had,and he got the ball as much as TD,than his apg ratio would have been defenitly bigger,and it isnt that hard tieing TD's ratio of 3.9. (E) From what I've seen, I'd give Duncan the definite edge in terms of passing ability. If you think Dirk would match his numbers if he handled the ball more, that's certainly an entitled to opinion. I'm sure it isn't hard, and if it isn't, then Dirk should match it. Until then... << >> when making an ugly ass shot,10 feet from the board,be as hard to make as a fadeaway jumper,that dirk shoots nearly everytime,than you could say their making the same mental effort on offense.you have no idea how much it takes out of him to make that shot every single time,to not have a post up game yet still have high percantages. (E)That has nothing to do with mental effort and once again this is poor reasoning. Punishing Duncan because Dirk has to earn all his points without a strong post game makes no more sense than Punishing Nowitzki because Duncan can't hit a jumpshot outside 11 feet.I'm sorry but if Dirk has to work Harder to get his points than Duncan does for argument's sake (which I don't agree) then that isn't Duncan's problem it's Nowitzki's. And this still has nothing to do with rebounding. << TexWith respect to Dirk, he's a good rebounder, I don't remember him ever being at more than 10.4 rebounds a game during the season whereas Duncan has been averaging 12-13 rebounds a game all season long just like he does every season he plays in. Secondly, as for concentrating on making shots, are you honestly trying to say, with the core of support that Dirk has, that there's some added pressure on Dirk that ISN'T on the leader of a two man show like Duncan? If anything Duncan has to focus more on getting points for his team than Dirk does and even though pulling down rebounds(90% of which are defensive) is hardly some antithesis to focusing on scoring points, Since Duncan manages to do both that would in actuality makes the case for Duncan being the better player at this juncture stronger. >> first of,Dirk did average 12 rebounds a game,so i apreciate you remaining with TD's stats and let me do Dirk. (E) Sorry bro But I'm not just going to take your word for it. Can you document some statistical source from the season showing Dirk pulling down 12 boards a game? its not about PRESSURE!!!i have no doubt Duncan is more importent to SA than Dirk to Dallas,and that Duncan is pressured much more than Dirk on offense,to get the bucket. were coming back to the same point i mentioned earlier,Duncan doesnt have to put all his efforts on getting the shot,or making it accurete, (E) Once again you are not making sense. Duncan doesen't put any less effort into putting points on the board than Dirk does. And because of the lack of support Duncan has compared to Dirk, it could be argued that he puts more effort considering the types of defenses he faces. his ugly ass shot is a 10 feeter,and with high percantile of it,it doesnt get the same amount of focus and consitration that banking a fadeaway needs,so you cant expect BOTH of them to be that fresh going on defense. (E) If your argument is that shooting a fadeaway and making requires more effort and concentration than backing someone down and banking one off the glass left side basline then that shows you have little understanding of the diffuculties of post play, footwork,countermoves etc. And as for not being able to expect them both to be fresh on defense, yes you can. Forget Tim Duncan, what about guards in the league like Gary Payton,Kobe Bryant etc? These guys expel more effort getting their own shot and making it than even Nowitzki does, yet they still manage to be top tier defenders. If Nowitzki can't do both then once again, that's Dirk's fault, not Duncan's. Let's take TD out of the mix completly. Rather than compare Dirk to a guy who puts up comparable offensive production, what about a guy like Mutumbo? Mutumbo doesen't put near the effort into his offensive game Nowitzki or Duncan do. That doesen't change the fact that Mutumbo, in his prime, a 4 time defensive player of the year, is much more of a defensive presence than both of them. << >> when the other team shoots?you mean Dirks defensive boards??he has about 0.7 defensive boards less per game than duncan,so im sorry i did quite get your point. >> ?? You said that Nowitzki wasn't even a worse defender than Duncan, it's just that Nowitzki concentrated on offense whereas Duncan concentrated on rebounds. Since 90% of rebounds come when the other team has possession and any concentration on offense at that juncture would be ineffective at best (since you are on defense) I asked you to clarify what the hell you mean't. I am no closer to understanding.