Dallas-Mavs.com Forums - View Single Post - Dirk All-NBA 2nd Team, Nash All-NBA 3rd Team

nowitzki_prophecy · 05-07-2003, 11:07 AM

<< sorry to tell ya but its pretty average percantile for a post up player, >>

hua?!WTF are you talking about?why do you think most teams dedicate the entire offensive play to getting the ball in the post?can you even compare PFs and centers percantages to guards?!what the hell are you talking about?!!wait,i copyed for you the top FG% in the league,and expect harpring,well...

1. Eddy Curry ( Chicago Bulls) 335 573 .585
2. Shaquille O'Neal ( Los Angeles Lakers) 695 1,211 .574
3. Carlos Boozer ( Cleveland Cavaliers) 331 618 .536
4. P.J. Brown ( New Orleans Hornets) 319 601 .531
5. Radoslav Nesterovic ( Minnesota Timberwolves) 400 762 .525
6. Nene Hilario ( Denver Nuggets) 321 619 .519
7. Tim Duncan ( San Antonio Spurs) 714 1,392 .513
8. Matt Harpring ( Utah Jazz) 521 1,020 .511
9. Pau Gasol ( Memphis Grizzlies) 569 1,116 .510
10. Brian Grant ( Miami Heat) 344 676 .509
11. Kevin Garnett ( Minnesota Timberwolves) 743 1,481 .502
11. Elton Brand ( Los Angeles Clippers) 451 899 .502

they're all forwards or centers!duh!

<< FYI. Illgauskas shot 44% this season. >>

FYI,illgauskas doesnt even have a post up game,he shoots from midrange,anything else?

<< (E) From what I've seen, I'd give Duncan the definite edge in terms of passing ability. If you think Dirk would match his numbers if he handled the ball more, that's certainly an entitled to opinion. I'm sure it isn't hard, and if it isn't, then Dirk should match it. Until then... >>

i actualy think he would,maybe next year,maybe a couple more,and if he stays alone he'll pass duncans numbers with ease.but like you said,its a matter of opinion,so dont tell me how superior passer TD is.

<< (E)That has nothing to do with mental effort and once again this is poor reasoning. Punishing Duncan because Dirk has to earn all his points without a strong post game makes no more sense than Punishing Nowitzki because Duncan can't hit a jumpshot outside 11 feet.I'm sorry but if Dirk has to work Harder to get his points than Duncan does for argument's sake (which I don't agree) then that isn't Duncan's problem it's Nowitzki's. And this still has nothing to do with rebounding. >>

were going round and round here,i didnt said its TDs fault,but if you talk about Pure Rebounding abileties,you have to consider the amount of efforts he spends on offense,and in that department,Dirk almost lives by his offense,he's knowen only for an offensive player(not something im happy about),so its kinda hard to say he got the same energy going playing D than O.

<< Sorry bro But I'm not just going to take your word for it. Can you document some statistical source from the season showing Dirk pulling down 12 boards a game? >>

well do,give me a couple of days.

<< Once again you are not making sense. Duncan doesen't put any less effort into putting points on the board than Dirk does. And because of the lack of support Duncan has compared to Dirk, it could be argued that he puts more effort considering the types of defenses he faces. >>

no it doesnt,all it means is he gets the ball on almost every offensive play,i dont believe it really matters to a player like duncan,if he shoots the ugly ass shot over one guy or two.
its the same shot,in the same Midrange,and with the same board.
he'll have some more difficulties getting to a position he can shoot,but if he doesnt,he just pass the ball,hence the 3.9 assists per game.

<< If your argument is that shooting a fadeaway and making requires more effort and concentration than backing someone down and banking one off the glass left side basline then that shows you have little understanding of the diffuculties of post play, footwork,countermoves etc. And as for not being able to expect them both to be fresh on defense, yes you can. Forget Tim Duncan, what about guards in the league like Gary Payton,Kobe Bryant etc? These guys expel more effort getting their own shot and making it than even Nowitzki does, yet they still manage to be top tier defenders. If Nowitzki can't do both then once again, that's Dirk's fault, not Duncan's. Let's take TD out of the mix completly. Rather than compare Dirk to a guy who puts up comparable offensive production, what about a guy like Mutumbo? Mutumbo doesen't put near the effort into his offensive game Nowitzki or Duncan do. That doesen't change the fact that Mutumbo, in his prime, a 4 time defensive player of the year, is much more of a defensive
presence than both of them >>

sorry to ansewr the last thing first but hua??(about Dikembe).your just making my point,he wasnt a tool on offense,and most of the time the ball just past around him,so he had energy to get the boards he needed and guard like he did.
now about being fresh on energy,i didnt said you cant expect it,i said it takes some energy out of you.
Dirk is close to a medioucre Defensive player at best,and when his wasting all his energy on Offense,its hard for him to be dominant on the boards and block all those shots.
Kobe is a good defender,not amazing,but good,and thats way his in a way a phenomenon,and Gary is one of the best,if not the best,defensive guard to ever play the game.
Dont compare Dirk to those guys since he isnt even close to their defense,but is required to do more on Defense,such as battle for the loose ball,be threatening to a penetrating player and such.

<< You said that Nowitzki wasn't even a worse defender than Duncan, it's just that Nowitzki concentrated on offense whereas Duncan concentrated on rebounds. Since 90% of rebounds come when the other team has possession and any concentration on offense at that juncture would be ineffective at best (since you are on defense) I asked you to clarify what the hell you mean't. I am no closer to understanding. >>

i didnt said Dirk was as good of a defensive player as TD,i said it wasnt as big a gap as you made it to be.
Secondly,Hua?!im having a hard time understanding your point,but i'll try to ansewr your question about rebounds.
Defensive rebounds most of the time doesnt take much effort,thats how guards get their Rebounds,and other player who arent exactly 7 feet.
on the other heand,getting an offensive Board,takes a hole lot of energy out of ya,and you have to battle with the Defenders,trying to box you out,and jump over them,after you just ran the offense.
My point is,Rebounding is a bigger part in TDs game,than Dirks,so he makes more of an effort getting them boards than Dirk,and Offense is a bigger part of dirks offense,thats why he's up almost 2 points a game,and i believe almost 4 points a game,next year,but for that you'd just have to wait and see.

05-07-2003, 11:07 AM	#34
nowitzki_prophecy Platinum Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,856	<< sorry to tell ya but its pretty average percantile for a post up player, >> hua?!WTF are you talking about?why do you think most teams dedicate the entire offensive play to getting the ball in the post?can you even compare PFs and centers percantages to guards?!what the hell are you talking about?!!wait,i copyed for you the top FG% in the league,and expect harpring,well... 1. Eddy Curry ( Chicago Bulls) 335 573 .585 2. Shaquille O'Neal ( Los Angeles Lakers) 695 1,211 .574 3. Carlos Boozer ( Cleveland Cavaliers) 331 618 .536 4. P.J. Brown ( New Orleans Hornets) 319 601 .531 5. Radoslav Nesterovic ( Minnesota Timberwolves) 400 762 .525 6. Nene Hilario ( Denver Nuggets) 321 619 .519 7. Tim Duncan ( San Antonio Spurs) 714 1,392 .513 8. Matt Harpring ( Utah Jazz) 521 1,020 .511 9. Pau Gasol ( Memphis Grizzlies) 569 1,116 .510 10. Brian Grant ( Miami Heat) 344 676 .509 11. Kevin Garnett ( Minnesota Timberwolves) 743 1,481 .502 11. Elton Brand ( Los Angeles Clippers) 451 899 .502 they're all forwards or centers!duh! << FYI. Illgauskas shot 44% this season. >> FYI,illgauskas doesnt even have a post up game,he shoots from midrange,anything else? << (E) From what I've seen, I'd give Duncan the definite edge in terms of passing ability. If you think Dirk would match his numbers if he handled the ball more, that's certainly an entitled to opinion. I'm sure it isn't hard, and if it isn't, then Dirk should match it. Until then... >> i actualy think he would,maybe next year,maybe a couple more,and if he stays alone he'll pass duncans numbers with ease.but like you said,its a matter of opinion,so dont tell me how superior passer TD is. << (E)That has nothing to do with mental effort and once again this is poor reasoning. Punishing Duncan because Dirk has to earn all his points without a strong post game makes no more sense than Punishing Nowitzki because Duncan can't hit a jumpshot outside 11 feet.I'm sorry but if Dirk has to work Harder to get his points than Duncan does for argument's sake (which I don't agree) then that isn't Duncan's problem it's Nowitzki's. And this still has nothing to do with rebounding. >> were going round and round here,i didnt said its TDs fault,but if you talk about Pure Rebounding abileties,you have to consider the amount of efforts he spends on offense,and in that department,Dirk almost lives by his offense,he's knowen only for an offensive player(not something im happy about),so its kinda hard to say he got the same energy going playing D than O. << Sorry bro But I'm not just going to take your word for it. Can you document some statistical source from the season showing Dirk pulling down 12 boards a game? >> well do,give me a couple of days. << Once again you are not making sense. Duncan doesen't put any less effort into putting points on the board than Dirk does. And because of the lack of support Duncan has compared to Dirk, it could be argued that he puts more effort considering the types of defenses he faces. >> no it doesnt,all it means is he gets the ball on almost every offensive play,i dont believe it really matters to a player like duncan,if he shoots the ugly ass shot over one guy or two. its the same shot,in the same Midrange,and with the same board. he'll have some more difficulties getting to a position he can shoot,but if he doesnt,he just pass the ball,hence the 3.9 assists per game. << If your argument is that shooting a fadeaway and making requires more effort and concentration than backing someone down and banking one off the glass left side basline then that shows you have little understanding of the diffuculties of post play, footwork,countermoves etc. And as for not being able to expect them both to be fresh on defense, yes you can. Forget Tim Duncan, what about guards in the league like Gary Payton,Kobe Bryant etc? These guys expel more effort getting their own shot and making it than even Nowitzki does, yet they still manage to be top tier defenders. If Nowitzki can't do both then once again, that's Dirk's fault, not Duncan's. Let's take TD out of the mix completly. Rather than compare Dirk to a guy who puts up comparable offensive production, what about a guy like Mutumbo? Mutumbo doesen't put near the effort into his offensive game Nowitzki or Duncan do. That doesen't change the fact that Mutumbo, in his prime, a 4 time defensive player of the year, is much more of a defensive presence than both of them >> sorry to ansewr the last thing first but hua??(about Dikembe).your just making my point,he wasnt a tool on offense,and most of the time the ball just past around him,so he had energy to get the boards he needed and guard like he did. now about being fresh on energy,i didnt said you cant expect it,i said it takes some energy out of you. Dirk is close to a medioucre Defensive player at best,and when his wasting all his energy on Offense,its hard for him to be dominant on the boards and block all those shots. Kobe is a good defender,not amazing,but good,and thats way his in a way a phenomenon,and Gary is one of the best,if not the best,defensive guard to ever play the game. Dont compare Dirk to those guys since he isnt even close to their defense,but is required to do more on Defense,such as battle for the loose ball,be threatening to a penetrating player and such. << You said that Nowitzki wasn't even a worse defender than Duncan, it's just that Nowitzki concentrated on offense whereas Duncan concentrated on rebounds. Since 90% of rebounds come when the other team has possession and any concentration on offense at that juncture would be ineffective at best (since you are on defense) I asked you to clarify what the hell you mean't. I am no closer to understanding. >> i didnt said Dirk was as good of a defensive player as TD,i said it wasnt as big a gap as you made it to be. Secondly,Hua?!im having a hard time understanding your point,but i'll try to ansewr your question about rebounds. Defensive rebounds most of the time doesnt take much effort,thats how guards get their Rebounds,and other player who arent exactly 7 feet. on the other heand,getting an offensive Board,takes a hole lot of energy out of ya,and you have to battle with the Defenders,trying to box you out,and jump over them,after you just ran the offense. My point is,Rebounding is a bigger part in TDs game,than Dirks,so he makes more of an effort getting them boards than Dirk,and Offense is a bigger part of dirks offense,thats why he's up almost 2 points a game,and i believe almost 4 points a game,next year,but for that you'd just have to wait and see.