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Originally Posted by Mavdog
your simplistic definition of "state ownership of producers" does not correctly define the fascist model, which is more pervasive than what you state.
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So do you think a state which owns producers isn't a terribly pervasive thing? I would never argue that fascism isn't a horribly pervasive thing, even more pervasive than that desired by the average US Liberal.
I get that fascism is state worship and that there is more to the story than the economic planks, I'm just making the distinction between the economics of regular ole socialism and the economics of the fascist variant. Both are state controlled, centrally planned economies even though one claimed ownership of property while the other didn't. The differences are aesthetic than economic.
hmmm....Of most interest to me is Hayek's "Road to Serfdom" thesis...hmmmm....here 'tis, something I wrote 4 years ago, well before Obama came along to tell us that only more government can save us from this present economic mess:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by alexawhileago
The thesis therein (Hayek's Road to Serfdom) is essentially that the national socialism of Germany in the 30's and 40's was a predictable outcome of democratic socialism and not some aberrant turn from democracy.
The process, according to Hayek, essentially goes...
a) centralization of power in national government creates dependency on government (and demand for government services);
b) "representative" democracy becomes an inneffective debating society incapable of fulfilling demand;
c) people elect a strong man who, unlike their legislative representatives, can get things done;
d) elected strongman consolidates power (ie, just disbands, or completely disregards legislative bodies) and decides he doesn't want to get unelected. Hence, what happened in Germany in the 1930's and 1940's wasn't due to a dirth of democracy, but was instead a not-too-surprising consequence of democracy.
I think we're more or less on the same path here with our democratic 3rd-way-ism.
Bush and co may be bad, but they're not nearly as bad as it can (and probably will) get -- imagine what we might see from DC if we were faced with a series of attacks (even relatively small ones), month after month....combine that with hyper-inflation (another probable consequence of democratic 3rd way-ism) and economic meltdown....I don't think it'd be long before the cries for a real strongman would be so loud that we'd see first hand...
"this is how liberty dies, to thunderous applause" OK, I know that line is from Star Wars, and perhaps its a bit cheesey to quote Princess Pomade (or whatever her name was), but it's a great friggin' line. Liberty dies not because some external bogeyman marches in and make us all cite the Koran (nor because the Grandparents can't retire to Florida), but because we give it away for security (social and physical).
We've gone a longtime without being completely subsumed, but we had a pretty good basis (very strong classical liberal tradition) to start with....it's taking us a lot longer than it took the decidedly il-liberal (and I mean classically il-liberal) Germans....but we're on the path, so to speak.
What the hell, it's been a good ride. |
anyhooo...my point is not that Obama won't give up office in 4 years when he's booted out, but rather that fascism is sort of a bastard child of so-called 'third-wayisms' of the modern welfare state. Unwelcomed, different, but intrinsically related nonetheless.