Dallas-Mavs.com Forums - View Single Post - Who wants to dogpile Nelson after a rare loss?

David · 01-06-2003, 06:26 PM

<<

<< The Mavs are currently 27-5. Do we hold Nelson accountable?

It looks like someone has the view that if the Mavs lose, then it's Nelson's fault. If the Mavs win, then, it's the Mavs that win and Nelson has nothing to do with it. >>

>>

<< Where do you get this from? I don't think anyone is failing to give Nelson his share of credit for regular season wins. I think everyone agrees that Nelson's coaching is a large reason for the impressive win total this season. I, for one, give Nelson a lot of credit for getting the team to 27-5. With most other coaches, they wouldn't be even close to that mark. But to talk about the regular season is to avoid the real topic here, which is: Can Don Nelson be a successful playoff coach, and if he can't, are you willing to admit that change needs to be made?

With the team that Nellie has, he ought to be able to get to the WCF, barring major injuries. If they don't, is it possible that there will be blame to spread to the players? Absolutely. There was last year, and if they don't get there this year, I'm sure there will again. (For those that disagree with me, go back and find some of the heated "interior vs. perimeter defense" debates) However, does that absolve Nellie? Not at all. You may not like it, but ultimately the coach is the one responsible for getting his players to perform in a manner and at a level sufficient to succeed. >>

I think the real question is, how much failure do we, as fans, allow Nelson. What teams are acceptable to lose to in the playoffs and at what point in the playoffs? I get the impression that there is NO losing allowed by some people. I get the impression that it doesn't matter what Nelson does, or has done, if the Mavs don't win the championship, he ought to be fired. I don't agree with that. There are too many variables to give a yes or no answer.

Suppose the Mavs play the Kings in the playoffs and each game is close but the Mavs lose the series. The Kings go on to win the championship. Is it Nelson's fault? Should Mark fire Nelson? Is it win the championship this year or you are gone Nellie? I suspect in Bayliss-ville, Nelson is gone and in David-ville Nelson keeps his job and the Mavs try again next year.

<< If this is the WCF, I think Bayliss would agree that Nellie's not necessarily gone. If it's another 4-1 exit in the second round, I think the answer is yes. What about you? >>

The first year, getting into the playoffs was an accomplishment, anything was fine in the playoffs. Last year, more was expected. The Kings were the best team in the league last year, IMO. I didn't think so going in to the series but the Kings made a believer out of me. This year, who are the Mavs playing in the 2nd round? Mavs/Spurs? Tossup. Mavs/Lakers? Tossup. Mavs/Kings? The Mavs are underdogs.

4-1 exit by the Mavs? How did the Mavs play? Did they play hard and leave it all out on the court and get beat 1,2,3 points in the losses? It depends. Did the Mavs just miss their shots or did the Mavs get grossly out-coached? You say 4-1 exit, automatic firing for Nellie. It's not that simple.

The other team gets credit for being able to play the game, in my view. Sometimes my team loses because the other team is better or the other team is better, that night. That happens. Sometimes the refs have a hand in the outcome of the game. Sometimes the refs swallow their whistle and sometimes the refs call a foul on Shawn Bradley because they expect him to make a foul, whether he fouls or not.

<< And is it your opinion that the Kings, Spurs, and Lakers are better? If so, I disagree. Also, surely you're not going to bring referees into this discussion. Don't make Nellie into George Karl. >>

The Lakers have won the championship THREE YEARS IN A ROW. They have to be considered a favorite, should they make the playoffs. Also two words: Shaq, Kobe.

The Spurs have Duncan and a point guard that Nash and NVE make look like an all-star every time they play the Mavs. The Spurs are a hurdle team for the Mavs.

The Kings have the best overall talent in the NBA, according to me. The Kings blew the championship last year by hitting only 50% of their free throws in the 7th game of the WCF.

I'm going to say the Mavs should be favored against any of the other teams.

Refs? Did you see the 76ers game the other day? Bradley was standing behind the 76ers center, not pushing or anything. Iverson was being guarded by a Mav, I forget who. This other Mav and the 76er's center were between Bradley and Iverson. The whistle blows. Foul, Shawn Bradley. This type of thing is not an isolated incident. Bradley is the key to the Mavs new and improved defense and he gets the respect of a 1st year free agent with the refs. Don't say that the refs can't or won't affect the playoffs.

<< It looks like, for the Mavs to challenge for the championship, they need Bradley in the game to make their defense works. If, in the playoffs, the Mavs get little to nothing out of Bradley, they will get beat by the better teams that are close to the Mavs in talent. Will it be Nelson's fault if the Mavs get beat in that scenario, or is it Bradley's fault, or is it the refs fault? >>

<< It's Nelson's fault, because Bradley's playing really well right now, and if he ceases to do so, it will be because Nellie did something to make him go bad. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] >>

Does Donnie have what it takes to lead the Mavs to the championship in the playoffs, should he take over? Can Mark hire a college coach to take the Mavs to the championship? Can Mark hire an NBA retread coach, who is not currently under contract, to lead the Mavs to the championship? Is the cure for the predicament the Mavs are in, to fire Nelson and start over?

<< You're like a broken record. Surely you're not going to say we should keep Nellie simply because we're not certain that any replacement would be better, are you? Would you rather remain a "contender" for several years that has no real shot at winning it all, or would you rather take a risk that could pay off to the tune of one or more NBA titles? >>

Surely you're not saying that just by firing Nellie that the next guy will do a better job are you?

Who says if Nelson is the coach that the Mavs are doomed to only be a contender but never the champion? There are currently 29 NBA teams. That means every year 28 coaches fail to win the championship. The best players tend to win. Shaq/Kobe three years in a row. Duncan one year. MJ and friends most of the last few years. None of those guys are on the Mavs. Our hope is Dirk with Nash and Fin helping out. I don't see Nelson's coaching as causing the Mavs to lose in the playoffs. On the contrary, Nelson is an asset, not to be thrown away lightly.

<< I remember, pre-Nelson, when the Mavs were a joke.

I remember after Nelson took over and Nelson made the wrong move and traded Mashburn. Then Nelson made the wrong move and cleaned house and made the firesale trade and got Bradley, among others.

I remember when Nelson made the wrong move and drafted some German that no one had heard of. Then Nelson traded an unprotected first round pick and got Phoenix's third string point guard.

Nelson has made the wrong move all up and down the line, failing as he went. Yet, somehow, the Mavs have gotten just a little bit better every year, no thanks to Nellie. It's been the players that have won the games and Nellie that has lost them. I don't see how Nelson has lasted as long as he has, no better than he has done. >>

<< A lot of words which do nothing to enhance your argument. We all concede that Nelson is very adept at making bad teams good. That's his track record. We all should also be able to admit that Nelson has NOT shown the ability to make good teams great. That's ALSO his track record. If you'd rather stay good knowing that the team probably won't become great rather than risk being bad again to become great, fine by me. I'd rather take the risk, probably because we have different ideas regarding success for this (and any other) team. >>

Great players make great teams. I don't think some of you guys realize just how good a coach Nelson is. There are only a handful, in the world, that are better, IMO. It's a short list.

01-06-2003, 06:26 PM	#79
David Golden Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 1,864	<< << The Mavs are currently 27-5. Do we hold Nelson accountable? It looks like someone has the view that if the Mavs lose, then it's Nelson's fault. If the Mavs win, then, it's the Mavs that win and Nelson has nothing to do with it. >> >> << Where do you get this from? I don't think anyone is failing to give Nelson his share of credit for regular season wins. I think everyone agrees that Nelson's coaching is a large reason for the impressive win total this season. I, for one, give Nelson a lot of credit for getting the team to 27-5. With most other coaches, they wouldn't be even close to that mark. But to talk about the regular season is to avoid the real topic here, which is: Can Don Nelson be a successful playoff coach, and if he can't, are you willing to admit that change needs to be made? With the team that Nellie has, he ought to be able to get to the WCF, barring major injuries. If they don't, is it possible that there will be blame to spread to the players? Absolutely. There was last year, and if they don't get there this year, I'm sure there will again. (For those that disagree with me, go back and find some of the heated "interior vs. perimeter defense" debates) However, does that absolve Nellie? Not at all. You may not like it, but ultimately the coach is the one responsible for getting his players to perform in a manner and at a level sufficient to succeed. >> I think the real question is, how much failure do we, as fans, allow Nelson. What teams are acceptable to lose to in the playoffs and at what point in the playoffs? I get the impression that there is NO losing allowed by some people. I get the impression that it doesn't matter what Nelson does, or has done, if the Mavs don't win the championship, he ought to be fired. I don't agree with that. There are too many variables to give a yes or no answer. Suppose the Mavs play the Kings in the playoffs and each game is close but the Mavs lose the series. The Kings go on to win the championship. Is it Nelson's fault? Should Mark fire Nelson? Is it win the championship this year or you are gone Nellie? I suspect in Bayliss-ville, Nelson is gone and in David-ville Nelson keeps his job and the Mavs try again next year. << If this is the WCF, I think Bayliss would agree that Nellie's not necessarily gone. If it's another 4-1 exit in the second round, I think the answer is yes. What about you? >> The first year, getting into the playoffs was an accomplishment, anything was fine in the playoffs. Last year, more was expected. The Kings were the best team in the league last year, IMO. I didn't think so going in to the series but the Kings made a believer out of me. This year, who are the Mavs playing in the 2nd round? Mavs/Spurs? Tossup. Mavs/Lakers? Tossup. Mavs/Kings? The Mavs are underdogs. 4-1 exit by the Mavs? How did the Mavs play? Did they play hard and leave it all out on the court and get beat 1,2,3 points in the losses? It depends. Did the Mavs just miss their shots or did the Mavs get grossly out-coached? You say 4-1 exit, automatic firing for Nellie. It's not that simple. The other team gets credit for being able to play the game, in my view. Sometimes my team loses because the other team is better or the other team is better, that night. That happens. Sometimes the refs have a hand in the outcome of the game. Sometimes the refs swallow their whistle and sometimes the refs call a foul on Shawn Bradley because they expect him to make a foul, whether he fouls or not. << And is it your opinion that the Kings, Spurs, and Lakers are better? If so, I disagree. Also, surely you're not going to bring referees into this discussion. Don't make Nellie into George Karl. >> The Lakers have won the championship THREE YEARS IN A ROW. They have to be considered a favorite, should they make the playoffs. Also two words: Shaq, Kobe. The Spurs have Duncan and a point guard that Nash and NVE make look like an all-star every time they play the Mavs. The Spurs are a hurdle team for the Mavs. The Kings have the best overall talent in the NBA, according to me. The Kings blew the championship last year by hitting only 50% of their free throws in the 7th game of the WCF. I'm going to say the Mavs should be favored against any of the other teams. Refs? Did you see the 76ers game the other day? Bradley was standing behind the 76ers center, not pushing or anything. Iverson was being guarded by a Mav, I forget who. This other Mav and the 76er's center were between Bradley and Iverson. The whistle blows. Foul, Shawn Bradley. This type of thing is not an isolated incident. Bradley is the key to the Mavs new and improved defense and he gets the respect of a 1st year free agent with the refs. Don't say that the refs can't or won't affect the playoffs. << It looks like, for the Mavs to challenge for the championship, they need Bradley in the game to make their defense works. If, in the playoffs, the Mavs get little to nothing out of Bradley, they will get beat by the better teams that are close to the Mavs in talent. Will it be Nelson's fault if the Mavs get beat in that scenario, or is it Bradley's fault, or is it the refs fault? >> << It's Nelson's fault, because Bradley's playing really well right now, and if he ceases to do so, it will be because Nellie did something to make him go bad. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] >> Does Donnie have what it takes to lead the Mavs to the championship in the playoffs, should he take over? Can Mark hire a college coach to take the Mavs to the championship? Can Mark hire an NBA retread coach, who is not currently under contract, to lead the Mavs to the championship? Is the cure for the predicament the Mavs are in, to fire Nelson and start over? << You're like a broken record. Surely you're not going to say we should keep Nellie simply because we're not certain that any replacement would be better, are you? Would you rather remain a "contender" for several years that has no real shot at winning it all, or would you rather take a risk that could pay off to the tune of one or more NBA titles? >> Surely you're not saying that just by firing Nellie that the next guy will do a better job are you? Who says if Nelson is the coach that the Mavs are doomed to only be a contender but never the champion? There are currently 29 NBA teams. That means every year 28 coaches fail to win the championship. The best players tend to win. Shaq/Kobe three years in a row. Duncan one year. MJ and friends most of the last few years. None of those guys are on the Mavs. Our hope is Dirk with Nash and Fin helping out. I don't see Nelson's coaching as causing the Mavs to lose in the playoffs. On the contrary, Nelson is an asset, not to be thrown away lightly. << I remember, pre-Nelson, when the Mavs were a joke. I remember after Nelson took over and Nelson made the wrong move and traded Mashburn. Then Nelson made the wrong move and cleaned house and made the firesale trade and got Bradley, among others. I remember when Nelson made the wrong move and drafted some German that no one had heard of. Then Nelson traded an unprotected first round pick and got Phoenix's third string point guard. Nelson has made the wrong move all up and down the line, failing as he went. Yet, somehow, the Mavs have gotten just a little bit better every year, no thanks to Nellie. It's been the players that have won the games and Nellie that has lost them. I don't see how Nelson has lasted as long as he has, no better than he has done. >> << A lot of words which do nothing to enhance your argument. We all concede that Nelson is very adept at making bad teams good. That's his track record. We all should also be able to admit that Nelson has NOT shown the ability to make good teams great. That's ALSO his track record. If you'd rather stay good knowing that the team probably won't become great rather than risk being bad again to become great, fine by me. I'd rather take the risk, probably because we have different ideas regarding success for this (and any other) team. >> Great players make great teams. I don't think some of you guys realize just how good a coach Nelson is. There are only a handful, in the world, that are better, IMO. It's a short list.