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Originally Posted by wmbwinn
very well said. I'm glad that the discussion is moving towards a rational discussion.
You made two good points that should be highlighted and repeated:
1)crime itself will occur with or without guns
2)crime committed with guns results in more death
Naturally, accidental deaths with a gun only occur where a gun is present. That particular statistic is without meaning beyond the obvious.
But, there are other points to also consider.
Countries like Britain, France, and Greece have removed almost all firearms from their people. Those countries are left to the protection of their military and police forces. France and Greece have both shown that their police and military cannot protect their citizens when "all hell breaks loose" (earlier Islamic riots in France and current anarchy in Greece).
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(Mavdog): these situations have nothing to do with the french and greek police/military not being capable of protecting the citizens, it is a case of the political establishment choosing to not protect private property. note that there haven't been any lossof life in these greek riots, only property destruction. the greek government decided that they would rather allow for the destruction and then provide compenstion to those who lost their property. a very convoluted situation, but also not anything that supports increased gun ownership to sya the least.
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There are two debates. One is regarding civil crime. The other is regarding the security of a state/nation and the defense of its peoples.
If you eliminate guns like Britain and France, then you obviously will have fewer "accidental deaths with a firearm" Duh.
If you eliminate guns like Britain and France, then you will have crime committed with knifes and other weapons. France and Britain have their problems with crime. And, the criminals still often obtain guns to commit the crime. The law abiding person did not have a gun to stand any chance in defense.
It is silly (IMO) to say (paraphrasing): "Look at our magnaminous cousins in France who have a very low accidental death rate with guns. Look at how low their murder with a gun rate is. Look at how few gun related deaths they have". That is tremendously erroneous as to statistics and logic. The abscence of guns there is the reason for those statistics. But, they still have their areas of high crime. They still have their murders. They still have their rapes. They still have their robberies and other crimes. They just use fewer guns (obtained illegally) and more knifes and other weapons.
And, then there is the other arguement which regards the defense of the state/nation. France was powerless to deal with the Islamic riots that occurred earlier. Their people were defenseless.
And, as to Greece: people are being killed there. It is not just property destruction.
And, if you want to shift the debate to an issue of life versus property, I am glad that our US Constitution states that BOTH are worth protecting and maintaining...