[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Janett_Reno

I just do not see how we can transform the world or the middle east to our way's. Sadam kept Iran in check. Iran is the one with wmd's, not Iraq. Aren't they more a threat to us than Sadam?

So the middle east is doomed to be ruled by sadistic maniac dictators? Transforming the middle east isn't to "our" way, it's to their peoples way.

How do we transform Saudi Arabia? Remember we are closely in bed with them and that is where most of the bombers came from.

You are thinking too linearly imo. What happens to the people of egypt, saudia arabia, etc. when they see Iraqi's ruling themselves as they see fit? You also aren't thinking nearly long-term enough here. This is a multi-decades endeavor, not somethign that gets done in 5 or even 10 years. If AlQueda hadn't attaced in Iraq it might have gotten done quicker, but they did.

How do we transform Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Pakistan and it is more. All the differ stan's that are muslim that has broke away from Russia.

Again see above, it IS a hearts and minds kind of thing. There is no way you can or should transform the entire middle east by invasion, however in this one instance with a sadistic aggressive lunatic who supported terrorism, had wmd, have oil revenue and a relatively secular populace, Iraq was a good candidate. Of course if we didn't think WMDs were there and Sadaam had opened up and proved it we wouldn't have gone in there either. But I see the reasoning.

I feel we should have been in Afganistan and we should be and we do need to transform this place because we chased Al Queda out. W did good here. I am disapointed he didn't get Bin Laden but even Clinton had the chance and didn't get him. I think our administration did good going in here. We had every right going into here.

Afghanistan was entered to get bin laden and remove a haven for terrorists. Afghanistan has much less of a chance to be a change-agent than Iraq does because it's relatively backward and poor. If you are thinking of transformation being a change agent throughout the middle-east, afghanistan really isn't it. Iraq will be. And of course there were many other reasons for overthrowing Saddamm.

When you say "the idea that this transformation is required for the middle-eastern arabic people to achieve along the rest of the world". How can they? We can't turn them into dems and repubs, we can't turn them into Southern Baptist, we can't make alot of them treat women as an equal to a man, we can't make them love the jew's and them consider a jew as a human being.

Again too linear. And I don't really understand the relgious connotation at all. No one is talking about them not being muslims. There are muslims in this country that respect women, treat them as relatively equal. No one has to force them to "love" the jews, they just have to make decisions that they want versus what a strongman wants. That's the transformation. Dems/republicans...silly comment. What are the british, candadian, etc. equivalents?

This is like me telling you to convert to Catholic and an Independent. When someone messes with us and does what they did at 9/11, you better bet we have a right to go after them to the ends of the earth and hunt each one down but for us to say we can transform the middle east where everyone lives by the same rules, laws, and likes each other. This won't happen.

No, this is like me telling you to do what you want once I've removed the jailer who beats you when you do not do what they say. If they want to be ruled by a dictator then they will and it will mean that the whole region is fubar. But you see the folks in lebanon, the students in Iran wanting more than being ruled by a dictator or religious nuts. That's the transformation that needs to occur. The islamic people who come here or go to other western/free countries.

Did you know if we left tomorrow, they would fight amonst themselfs. These people fight, as to where we talk things over, alot of these countries talk by a gun or sword to get their point across. I think you need to read up on how alot of these people live and notice their laws is way differ than ours.

IMO this is a racist comment. They fight just like anyone else fights. What do you see happening in the poor sections of our own country. Are those people "talking". Folks who have nothing but pride will kill for that pride.

I am throwing oil out now and not even having this in the picture. You can not make Iraq a country club or vacation spot. It is to many people inside and comming across that will never let it be a country club or vacation spot and even if it was this, alot of the countries would destroy it because they do not live that way.

No one EVER said it would be a country club and we couldn't make it so, but the people of Iraq could. I would say that a liberal arab government with wealth and the US backing them up wouldn't be destroyed anytime soon imo.

If the middle east want's to be transformed it has to be with the people from within that area, country, those same religions and get tired of living the way they are and being treated.

How were the people of germany/japan transformed? It does have to be from the people from within. Do you recall the bloody,bloody battles that occurred in europe before liberal governement was institued? Those people didn't just "throw" off their shackles. In fact it's quite rare for a people to overthrow a tyrant. I'd welcome you naming a few, especially in modern time with all of the firepower a government has.

It certainly does have to be from within and it probably would have occurred in another 100 years or so, all the while we continue to get blown up and heaven forbid the terrorists get ahold of wmd. But the people of Iraq were given the opportunity to do this. Unfortunately they've had to suffer the tender mercies of Al Queda as well.

I feel we are not living in reality to think we can go change the middle east to what we want it to be and what we preceive it should be like. Iraq is not the only country in the middle east, living under conditions we do not aprove of.

Again you do what you can. It would be silly to go around attacking anyone if it is not in our best interests. In the case of Iraq there were many intersecting interests.

How do you think Israel would feel if those Muslim countries transformed them to the way, they think Israel should be? That won't happen, Israel won't let it. How do you think Iran and Syria and other's would feel if Israel transformed them to what they thought the middle east should be? Again, this won't happen as all muslim nations would rise up.

Do you mean overthrew a dictator that was killing them and their children, give them billions and billions of dollars to re-build their country and infrastructure and then tell them that as soon as they can stand up, we leave. Pretty damn good I'd say. Again you really are caught up in this religious deal, it's not that, never has been.

Everyone needs to protect their mother land and homeland. I just do not feel we can transform them, nor can other outsider's as i feel it has to be transformed wityhin, with their on people that is willing to die for what they believe in and their own country.

Agreed, but it's your opnion that they are not worth saving or that they are too "something" to ever rule themselves without a dictator doing it. I disagree with that.