Postgame Mavs vs Grizzlies - blargh - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

sefant77 · 10-29-2010, 10:12 PM

Dirkadirkastan · 10-29-2010, 10:13 PM

Did they say nine turnovers in the 4th?

LetsGoMavs · 10-29-2010, 10:15 PM

Playing the zone at least 30 minutes cost us the game... .

41mvp · 10-29-2010, 10:15 PM

ooo god!!!I hate Jason Terry!!!I hate him!!!!

Bayliss · 10-29-2010, 10:15 PM

What is the deal with Carlisle?

He plays zone pretty much the whole damn game. He pretty much went away from Dirk the whole night. In the fouurth quarter, he played Barea and Terry together! If that wasn't great, he then put Barea and Kidd in together.

And that was against a team that has length in the backcourt.

Mavs gave a f*cking game away. Because of their own stupidity.

CadBane · 10-29-2010, 10:15 PM

Dirk is now 22-28 through 2 games. Maybe he should be taking a few more shots instead of having Butler hoist up 33 in two games. Just an idea. If your star is shooting over 80%, maybe he shouldn't be shooting less than a mediocre SF.

Another crazy idea, you might not want to run the last two (or one if you don't think the first one was a play design) plays for Terry when Dirk is on fire and Terry has clanked his last 4 shots.

Another insane idea, you might not want to play your 5 foot PG who can't defend, rebound, pass, or do anything but pound the ball and pass it to the other team, critical minutes in the 4th quarter.

F you "Coach".

sefant77 · 10-29-2010, 10:16 PM

Can we blame the refs that allowed the Grizz to hack and foul like crap?

That was the worst 4th quarter ever after the 12-2 run...

CadBane · 10-29-2010, 10:18 PM

The officiating was absolute shit, especially in the 4th quarter. But we still would have won had we a competent coach.

GermanDunk · 10-29-2010, 10:18 PM

LetsGoMavs · 10-29-2010, 10:18 PM

Hey...but at least we seem to be in playoff form already - everybody sucked major ass except Dirk.

Way to go Rick...

turin · 10-29-2010, 10:20 PM

Terry <?>

sigh, I was hoping to make it a little deeper in the season this year before I was reminded how much he drives me crazy.

AO41 · 10-29-2010, 10:20 PM

Shit happens........ we shouldnt have lost this one though. So they need to get back out there and ge the next few.

Popeye · 10-29-2010, 10:23 PM

Horrible pass by Kidd at the end of the game.

odb 7777 · 10-29-2010, 10:25 PM

Memphis was without Z. Randolph - their best player last season. And Dirk shoots well, but passiv as always. Game 1 13 shots, now 15 ... no alpha gen.

CadBane · 10-29-2010, 10:26 PM

So is Butler going to continue to take more shots than Dirk all year?

And here's my issue with Butler. He's strictly an isolation player, and no longer an efficient one. He doesn't cut or move around, so he doesn't get easy looks from Kidd.

He can't shoot threes, and won't shoot spot up jumpers, so he doesn't get easy looks from Dirk.

He rarely drives, and usually when he does, he gets blocked.

What does that leave us with? Isolation jumpers. Everything with this guy is "hold the ball, dribble, shoot." And while historically a good mid-range jumper, that's just not a high percentage shot.

So Coach Dumbass, WHY is Caron starting? There is NO excuse for this guy to be taking more shots than Dirk, let alone a super efficient Dirk. Marion at least brings defense and a few easy baskets from Kidd (the ones he doesn't flub.)

Butler brings NOTHING to the starting lineup. At least his isolation jumpers could have SOME use with the second unit. The second unit has no scoring whatsoever, so they could actually use his iso game. But starting? He's just taking higher percentage shots from Dirk.

But hey, this logic is obviously lost on a guy who repeatedly goes to a cold, streaky SG to close a game, and a guy who plays a 5 foot PG in the 4th quarter.

sefant77 · 10-29-2010, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

So is Butler going to continue to take more shots than Dirk all year?

And here's my issue with Butler. He's strictly an isolation player, and no longer an efficient one. He doesn't cut or move around, so he doesn't get easy looks from Kidd.

He can't shoot threes, and won't shoot spot up jumpers, so he doesn't get easy looks from Dirk.

He rarely drives, and usually when he does, he gets blocked.

What does that leave us with? Isolation jumpers. Everything with this guy is "hold the ball, dribble, shoot." And while historically a good mid-range jumper, that's just not a high percentage shot.

So Coach Dumbass, WHY is Caron starting? There is NO excuse for this guy to be taking more shots than Dirk, let alone a super efficient Dirk. Marion at least brings defense and a few easy baskets from Kidd (the ones he doesn't flub.)

Butler brings NOTHING to the starting lineup. At least his isolation jumpers could have SOME use with the second unit. The second unit has no scoring whatsoever, so they could actually use his iso game. But starting? He's just taking higher percentage shots from Dirk.

But hey, this logic is obviously lost on a guy who repeatedly goes to a cold, streaky SG to close a game, and a guy who plays a 5 foot PG in the 4th quarter.

Thats the point, if Roddy really can jump to that efficient 16-18PPG "scoring from everywhere" i go with Kidd-Roddy-Marion-Chandler and let Terry and Butler destroy the other benches

CadBane · 10-29-2010, 10:33 PM

But Roddy has nothing to do with Butler starting over Marion. Butler shouldn't be starting NOW. And I don't think Roddy replacing Terry (if RC even does that) will change him starting Butler.

Popeye · 10-29-2010, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

But Roddy has nothing to do with Butler starting over Marion. Butler shouldn't be starting NOW. And I don't think Roddy replacing Terry (if RC even does that) will change him starting Butler.

I like Butler starting and Marion backing up the 3 and 4 positions.

CadBane · 10-29-2010, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popeye

I like Butler starting and Marion backing up the 3 and 4 positions.

Why? What points of mine do you disagree with? What does Butler bring to the table starting that wouldn't be better served off of the bench? He's inefficiency takes away from the starting 5 and he'd likely be more efficient against second units.

Popeye · 10-29-2010, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

Why? What points of mine do you disagree with? What does Butler bring to the table starting that wouldn't be better served off of the bench? He's inefficiency takes away from the starting 5 and he'd likely be more efficient against second units.

I don't disagree with your points about Butler. He's an inefficient player regardless of how you play him. His strength is making long range 2 pointers which is by nature a low percentage shot. I just like Marion off the bench since he can come in for Butler and then slide over to replace Dirk. So he can play like 12 straight minutes. Not sure why I think that's important but I tend to like the versatile guy that can play 2 positions coming off the bench.

DevinHarriswillstart · 10-29-2010, 11:02 PM

Butler does look a little off at times, but you can't deny that he still was fairly productive. He is our second best scorer until Roddy comes back, like it or not.

twelli · 10-29-2010, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

Dirk is now 22-28 through 2 games. Maybe he should be taking a few more shots instead of having Butler hoist up 33 in two games. Just an idea. If your star is shooting over 80%, maybe he shouldn't be shooting less than a mediocre SF.

Another crazy idea, you might not want to run the last two (or one if you don't think the first one was a play design) plays for Terry when Dirk is on fire and Terry has clanked his last 4 shots.

Another insane idea, you might not want to play your 5 foot PG who can't defend, rebound, pass, or do anything but pound the ball and pass it to the other team, critical minutes in the 4th quarter.

This.

But, theoretically it's a good idea to give more shots to our designated second scoring option, and 8 from 17 isn't that bad. What worries me more is Terry, cause he does the same thing he's done in all those previous years, doing good things first and then, when it counts, messing things up. We need to develop Beaubois quick and use Terry and Barea in reduced roles as spark plugs only. I think we should also give a sharpshooter like Novak some floor time to see if he can knock down some open threes, which Barea had problems to do. Dirk is getting Twitter tips from Marion? I hope he would give the Matrix some tips on shooting properly. He made a three alright, but why is he shooting low-percentage floaters all the time from mid-range? That's like free-throw shooting a la Shaq. Probably too late to change his way of shooting now, but man, is this hard to watch...

CadBane · 10-29-2010, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Butler does look a little off at times, but you can't deny that he still was fairly productive. He is our second best scorer until Roddy comes back, like it or not.

Yeah, actually, you can deny that. Butler hasn't been efficient AT ALL.

Game 1: 13 points on 16 shots.
Game 2: 18 points on 17 shots.

You say, "Hey, he shot 8-17, that's almost 50%." Problem is, he doesn't make threes OR go to the line. So that's basically 1 PPS, which is AWFUL. That's Antoine Walker territory. A good PPS is around 1.3.

Butler can't be taking that many shots with his efficiency. If he comes off the bench, those bad shots as a starter are better shots as a reserve. It's that simply.

A. Butler probably scores easier against 2nd units so his fg% would go up.
B. Second unit needs a guy who can go one on one and score, no one else on the bench does that.
C. Butler starting takes shots from Dirk, which are invariably higher percentage shots.
D. Marion benefits from playing with Kidd. Marion with JJB is useless on offense because JJB isn't going to create shit for him. Butler doesn't really benefit from Kidd because all he does is play one on one. So why not use him with JJB?

I just don't see how this isn't obvious, all things considered.

tcat075 · 10-29-2010, 11:27 PM

My MM recap.

BGMaverick9 · 10-29-2010, 11:35 PM

Dirk slipped (accidentally or not) that Roddy may or may not be back until December. Like I talked about in the pregame, they really want to make sure he is 100% ready. He's not really doing any extensive workouts right now.

My MMB piece will have bits from Carlisle addressing the attempts issue you guys are mentioning and what exactly went wrong.

CadBane · 10-29-2010, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcat075

My MM recap.

Jason Terry didn't make the entry pass...

Dtownsfinest · 10-29-2010, 11:38 PM

I've missed the 1st two Mavs game of the season but goodness I find it disturbing how sufficient Dirk is yet through 2 games he doesn't even have 30 shots.

tcat075 · 10-29-2010, 11:46 PM

General reply to a lot of things I read in here.

A. Carlisle's terrible zone limited Memphis to 91 points on below 40% shooting (39 percent, but still under 40).

B. Barea was absolutely awful with the starting unit playing the 2. No more, please. However, he was much better tonight with the second unit (they had a 10-2 lead to close the 3rd, taking the lead in the process, and maintained it until the starters returned).

C. Butler could stand to be more efficient, no doubt, but he also is going to have some uber efficient games and that will raise his points per shot. 2 games is not a great sample size for anyone, including Dirk, who unfortunately will not shoot 79% for the year. I'll take 8-17 shooting, but like you said CadBane, what's key is that he gets to the free throw line more.

Personally, I haven't seen a lot of plays run for Butler except those baseline and wing iso's. When they were trying to get him going in the 3rd, I saw a slip screen and a handoff from Dirk, both resulting in points. Why isn't there more of that? I remember last year, when we first got him, that the handoff from the big man got him an open or two almost every game, but then we went away from it. Maybe teams realized it, but there has to be some type of action you can run with Dirk that will result in more good looks.

D. I highly doubt any plays in the past couple of minutes where actually run for Terry, even if he took the shot. A Dirk-Terry pick and roll is not actually calling Terry to take the shot, and a couple times Dirk had the ball at his favorite spot, the elbow, and gave it up.

E. Dirk does need more shots. When his shot is a pure as it is right now, milk it. This isn't totally Carlisle, though. Jason Kidd runs a ton of the offense, and if Dirk's not getting enough shots, then he needs to feed him more. After timeouts, its almost always Dirk who Carlisle calls a play for, so please cut the crap about RC intentionally ignoring Dirk or whatever (I don't think it was said quite like that, but I saw something to that effect in here somewhere).

F. Butler might be starting, but he's spending a lot of time playing with the bench players. I don't know the minutes, but I suspect he didn't play with Dirk more than 10 or 15 this game.

G. Reffing was questionable, but there's much bigger reasons why we lost. Why was it even brought up? This wasn't Denver 08.

tcat075 · 10-29-2010, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

Jason Terry didn't make the entry pass...

On the last play, unless I totally saw it wrong, Terry caught the ball, turned, and then tried to make a bounce pass into Dirk at the elbow which hit off of some part of Conley's body and rolled away.

What did you see?

CadBane · 10-29-2010, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcat075

On the last play, unless I totally saw it wrong, Terry caught the ball, turned, and then tried to make a bounce pass into Dirk at the elbow which hit off of some part of Conley's body and rolled away.

What did you see?

There was 2.6 seconds left...there's no way Terry was trying to pass it. It's physically impossible to catch an inbounds pass on the move, pass to another player, and get a shot off in 2.6 seconds.. It was a designed play for Terry. Kidd made a bad pass and it got away from him. It wasn't what I saw, it's what it was.

twelli · 10-29-2010, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcat075

On the last play, unless I totally saw it wrong, Terry caught the ball, turned, and then tried to make a bounce pass into Dirk at the elbow which hit off of some part of Conley's body and rolled away.

What did you see?

Entry pass from Kidd to Terry, incomplete pass from Terry to Dirk.

tcat075 · 10-29-2010, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

There was 2.6 seconds left...there's no way Terry was trying to pass it. It's physically impossible to catch an inbounds pass on the move, pass to another player, and get a shot off in 2.6 seconds.. It was a designed play for Terry. Kidd made a bad pass and it got away from him. It wasn't what I saw, it's what it was.

Was talking about the one at 6 seconds.

edit: On that pass you're talking about, maybe it was designed for Terry, or perhaps Dirk couldn't get open. I don't remember it well enough. That's not an excuse; the ball needs to go to Dirk. Have him screen Terry, then go off a screen to get open or something. Maybe that was the plan but Kidd pulled the trigger too early. Who knows...I think saying it was designed for Terry is assuming a little too much, though I'm not disagreeing that it very well might be true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twelli

Entry pass from Kidd to Terry, incomplete pass from Terry to Dirk.

Yup. I would disagree on your terminology though: out of bounds pass from Kidd to Terry, entry pass (to the post) by Terry to Dirk which was incomplete.

That's why I used the term entry pass. I know it wasn't the low block, but Dirk was posted up, and usually you call that an entry pass.

Apparently, I should change it, because its confusing people, but in my mind, that's still exactly how I would phrase it.

CadBane · 10-30-2010, 12:02 AM

Are you talking about the 6 seconds or 2.6?

Because the 2.6 seconds, it was a designed play for Terry to shoot off the curl. He definitely wasn't trying to pass it to Dirk. Not enough time.

tcat075 · 10-30-2010, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

Are you talking about the 6 seconds or 2.6?

Because the 2.6 seconds, it was a designed play for Terry to shoot off the curl. He definitely wasn't trying to pass it to Dirk. Not enough time.

6 seconds, read my post above, and yes, it probably was designed for Terry.

LonghornDub · 10-30-2010, 12:31 AM

Kind of a lame loss, but not really a big deal IMO. I like what I'm seeing from Dirk, Kidd, and Terry (in that order). Butler is okay but needs to be more efficient. Marion does what he does. Chandler is actually a little better than I expected.

Stating the obvious, but I still really feel like we're missing someone who can move well with the ball into the paint. You put that element with the rest of these guys, and I think we're seriously competitive with LA and Miami. Maybe still can't beat em, but competitive.

Maybe that's Roddy, maybe it isn't. I dunno.

SMC0007 · 10-30-2010, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popeye

Horrible pass by Kidd at the end of the game.

That pass looked worse because JET cut that curl off wayyy to close and left an almost impossible angle for Kidd. Just before that, Jet also would have turned the ball over if it didn't hit the defenders arm. He tried a bounce pass to Dirk who was at the same time leaving his semi-posted up position.

Not directed at you but in general; There was plenty of fault to spread around. No one should be exempt from blame that played in the last 3 minutes.

SMC0007 · 10-30-2010, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Butler does look a little off at times, but you can't deny that he still was fairly productive. He is our second best scorer until Roddy comes back, like it or not.

I agree to an extent about Butlers production. Maybe not all that efficient but still. I don't see the issue with Butler starting over Marion in fact I prefer it. Marion isn't efficient either and probably causes worse problems on offense, he bogs the flow down a lot by not taking shots and doesn't even come close on anything past mid-range. If they double Dirk, Marion damn sure isn't knocking down shots when it comes his way. He doesn't really create with the ball either unless it's wide open.

I'm sure more shifting is coming in the future especially when Roddy comes back but I would bet that until something better comes along Butler is gonna be starting @ 3. Marion is in a good role if only because we really don't have a backup 4...not like Shawn. I think he is solid in that role and backing up Butler. He is the most flexible on the team while not expecting huge numbers from, just solid contributions in a lot of areas and a few different positions.

BGMaverick9 · 10-30-2010, 01:50 AM

http://www.mavsmoneyball.com/2010/10...emphis-victory

Quote:

- Caron Butler was a very capable sidekick to Dirk Nowitzki on Friday night, scoring 18 points but he had the most shots out of any of the Mavericks (17). When asked if he was looking for Butler to be the player with the most attempts, Carlisle said, "If he's open, he should shoot, but I don't expect him to be our leading shot taker...this is two games out of eighty-two, so let's come back in 2 weeks and let's see where they (the attempts) are."

- Dirk predicted that Roddy Beaubois will not be back until December, "we tried [three] weeks ago, and it wasn’t happening, so I think this time we’re going to shut him down until he’s all the way right." Mark Cuban made it plain and simple, "there is no rush." By now, everyone should understand the importance of being patient with recovery process. Jason Terry will need to continue to shoulder the scoring load until Beaubois is able to return.

- Shawn Marion should be a focal point for the offense when he comes off the bench. "I look to get him involved right away with play calls," Carlisle explained prior to the game, "we want to get him on the move where he's best."

CadBane · 10-30-2010, 02:16 AM

18 points on 17 shots is supposed to be a capable #2 option? That's weird.

BGMaverick9 · 10-30-2010, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

18 points on 17 shots is supposed to be a capable #2 option? That's weird.

Considering he started 2-6, thus rectifying a bad start and going 6-9 the rest of the way...that's pretty good.