Obama's take on Religion

[aexchange]

Great stuff.

http://blog.beliefnet.com/stevenwald...-cathleen.html

Obama's Fascinating Interview with Cathleen Falsani
Tuesday November 11, 2008

The most detailed and fascinating explication of Barack Obama's faith came in a 2004 interview he gave Chicago Sun Times columnist Cathleen Falsani when he was running for U.S. Senate in Illinois. The column she wrote about the interview has been quoted and misquoted many times over, but she'd never before published the full transcript in a major publication.

Because of how controversial that interview became, Falsani has graciously allowed us to print the full conversation here.

sin boldly.jpg
Falsani is one of the most gifted interviews on matters of Faith, and has recently published an outstanding memoir called Sin Boldly: A Field Guide for Grace. To get a free download of the audio book, click here.
* * *


At 3:30 p.m. on Saturday, March 27, 2004, when I was the religion reporter (I am now its religion columnist) at the Chicago Sun-Times, I met then-State Sen. Barack Obama at Café Baci, a small coffee joint at 330 S. Michigan Avenue in Chicago, to interview him exclusively about his spirituality. Our conversation took place a few days after he'd clinched the Democratic nomination for the U.S. Senate seat that he eventually won. We spoke for more than an hour. He came alone. He answered everything I asked without notes or hesitation. The profile of Obama that grew from the interview at Cafe Baci became the first in a series in the Sun-Times called "The God Factor," that eventually became my first book, The God Factor: Inside the Spiritual Lives of Public People (FSG, March 2006.) Because of the staggering interest in now President-Elect Obama's faith and spiritual predilections, I thought it might be helpful to share that interivew, uncut and in its entirety, here.
--Cathleen Falsani

Interview with State Sen. Barack Obama
3:30 p.m., Saturday March 27
Café Baci, 330 S. Michigan Avenue

Me: decaf
He: alone, on time, grabs a Naked juice protein shake


FALSANI:
What do you believe?

OBAMA:
I am a Christian.

So, I have a deep faith. So I draw from the Christian faith.

On the other hand, I was born in Hawaii where obviously there are a lot of Eastern influences.

I lived in Indonesia, the largest Muslim country in the world, between the ages of six and 10.

My father was from Kenya, and although he was probably most accurately labeled an agnostic, his father was Muslim.

And I'd say, probably, intellectually I've drawn as much from Judaism as any other faith.

(A patron stops and says, "Congratulations," shakes his hand. "Thank you very much. I appreciate that. Thank you.")

So, I'm rooted in the Christian tradition. I believe that there are many paths to the same place, and that is a belief that there is a higher power, a belief that we are connected as a people. That there are values that transcend race or culture, that move us forward, and there's an obligation for all of us individually as well as collectively to take responsibility to make those values lived.

And so, part of my project in life was probably to spend the first 40 years of my life figuring out what I did believe - I'm 42 now - and it's not that I had it all completely worked out, but I'm spending a lot of time now trying to apply what I believe and trying to live up to those values.


FALSANI:
Have you always been a Christian?


OBAMA:
I was raised more by my mother and my mother was Christian.

FALSANI:
Any particular flavor?

OBAMA:
No.

My grandparents who were from small towns in Kansas. My grandmother was Methodist. My grandfather was Baptist. This was at a time when I think the Methodists felt slightly superior to the Baptists. And by the time I was born, they were, I think, my grandparents had joined a Universalist church.

So, my mother, who I think had as much influence on my values as anybody, was not someone who wore her religion on her sleeve. We'd go to church for Easter. She wasn't a church lady.

As I said, we moved to Indonesia. She remarried an Indonesian who wasn't particularly, he wasn't a practicing Muslim. I went to a Catholic school in a Muslim country. So I was studying the Bible and catechisms by day, and at night you'd hear the prayer call.

So I don't think as a child we were, or I had a structured religious education. But my mother was deeply spiritual person, and would spend a lot of time talking about values and give me books about the world's religions, and talk to me about them. And I think always, her view always was that underlying these religions were a common set of beliefs about how you treat other people and how you aspire to act, not just for yourself but also for the greater good.

And, so that, I think, was what I carried with me through college. I probably didn't get started getting active in church activities until I moved to Chicago.

The way I came to Chicago in 1985 was that I was interested in community organizing and I was inspired by the Civil Rights movement. And the idea that ordinary people could do extraordinary things. And there was a group of churches out on the South Side of Chicago that had come together to form an organization to try to deal with the devastation of steel plants that had closed. And didn't have much money, but felt that if they formed an organization and hired somebody to organize them to work on issues that affected their community, that it would strengthen the church and also strengthen the community.

So they hired me, for $13,000 a year. The princely sum. And I drove out here and I didn't know anybody and started working with both the ministers and the lay people in these churches on issues like creating job training programs, or afterschool programs for youth, or making sure that city services were fairly allocated to underserved communites.

This would be in Roseland, West Pullman, Altgeld Gardens, far South Side working class and lower income communities.

And it was in those places where I think what had been more of an intellectual view of religion deepened because I'd be spending an enormous amount of time with church ladies, sort of surrogate mothers and fathers and everybody I was working with was 50 or 55 or 60, and here I was a 23-year-old kid running around.

I became much more familiar with the ongoing tradition of the historic black church and it's importance in the community.

And the power of that culture to give people strength in very difficult circumstances, and the power of that church to give people courage against great odds. And it moved me deeply.

So that, one of the churches I met, or one of the churches that I became involved in was Trinity United Church of Christ. And the pastor there, Jeremiah Wright, became a good friend. So I joined that church and committed myself to Christ in that church.


FALSANI:
Did you actually go up for an altar call?

OBAMA:
Yes. Absolutely.

It was a daytime service, during a daytime service. And it was a powerful moment. Because, it was powerful for me because it not only confirmed my faith, it not only gave shape to my faith, but I think, also, allowed me to connect the work I had been pursuing with my faith.

FALSANI:
How long ago?

OBAMA:
16, 17 years ago. 1987 or 88

FALSANI:
So you got yourself born again?

OBAMA:
Yeah, although I don't, I retain from my childhood and my experiences growing up a suspicion of dogma. And I'm not somebody who is always comfortable with language that implies I've got a monopoly on the truth, or that my faith is automatically transferable to others.

I'm a big believer in tolerance. I think that religion at it's best comes with a big dose of doubt. I'm suspicious of too much certainty in the pursuit of understanding just because I think people are limited in their understanding.

I think that, particularly as somebody who's now in the public realm and is a student of what brings people together and what drives them apart, there's an enormous amount of damage done around the world in the name of religion and certainty.

FALSANI
Do you still attend Trinity?

OBAMA:
Yep. Every week. 11 oclock service.

Ever been there? Good service.

I actually wrote a book called Dreams from My Father, it's kind of a meditation on race. There's a whole chapter on the church in that, and my first visits to Trinity.

FALSANI:
Do you pray often?

OBAMA:
Uh, yeah, I guess I do.

Its' not formal, me getting on my knees. I think I have an ongoing conversation with God. I think throughout the day, I'm constantly asking myself questions about what I'm doing, why am I doing it.

One of the interesting things about being in public life is there are constantly these pressures being placed on you from different sides. To be effective, you have to be able to listen to a variety of points of view, synthesize viewpoints. You also have to know when to be just a strong advocate, and push back against certain people or views that you think aren't right or don't serve your constituents.

And so, the biggest challenge, I think, is always maintaining your moral compass. Those are the conversations I'm having internally. I'm measuring my actions against that inner voice that for me at least is audible, is active, it tells me where I think I'm on track and where I think I'm off track.

It's interesting particularly now after this election, comes with it a lot of celebrity. And I always think of politics as having two sides. There's a vanity aspect to politics, and then there's a substantive part of politics. Now you need some sizzle with the steak to be effective, but I think it's easy to get swept up in the vanity side of it, the desire to be liked and recognized and important. It's important for me throughout the day to measure and to take stock and to say, now, am I doing this because I think it's advantageous to me politically, or because I think it's the right thing to do? Am I doing this to get my name in the papers or am I doing this because it's necessary to accomplish my motives.

FALSANI:
Checking for altruism?

OBAMA:
Yeah. I mean, something like it.

Looking for, ... It's interesting, the most powerful political moments for me come when I feel like my actions are aligned with a certain truth. I can feel it. When I'm talking to a group and I'm saying something truthful, I can feel a power that comes out of those statements that is different than when I'm just being glib or clever.

FALSANI:
What's that power? Is it the holy spirit? God?

OBAMA:
Well, I think it's the power of the recognition of God, or the recognition of a larger truth that is being shared between me and an audience.

That's something you learn watching ministers, quite a bit. What they call the Holy Spirit. They want the Holy Spirit to come down before they're preaching, right? Not to try to intellectualize it but what I see is there are moments that happen within a sermon where the minister gets out of his ego and is speaking from a deeper source. And it's powerful.

There are also times when you can see the ego getting in the way. Where the minister is performing and clearly straining for applause or an Amen. And those are distinct moments. I think those former moments are sacred.

FALSANI:
Who's Jesus to you?

(He laughs nervously)

OBAMA:
Right.

Jesus is an historical figure for me, and he's also a bridge between God and man, in the Christian faith, and one that I think is powerful precisely because he serves as that means of us reaching something higher.

And he's also a wonderful teacher. I think it's important for all of us, of whatever faith, to have teachers in the flesh and also teachers in history.

FALSANI:
Is Jesus someone who you feel you have a regular connection with now, a personal connection with in your life?

OBAMA:
Yeah. Yes. I think some of the things I talked about earlier are addressed through, are channeled through my Christian faith and a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

FALSANI:
Have you read the bible?

OBAMA:
Absolutely.

I read it not as regularly as I would like. These days I don't have much time for reading or reflection, period.

FALSANI:
Do you try to take some time for whatever, meditation prayer reading?

OBAMA:
I'll be honest with you, I used to all the time, in a fairly disciplined way. But during the course of this campaign, I don't. And I probably need to and would like to, but that's where that internal monologue, or dialogue I think supplants my opportunity to read and reflect in a structured way these days.

It's much more sort of as I'm going through the day trying to take stock and take a moment here and a moment there to take stock, why am I here, how does this connect with a larger sense of purpose.

FALSANI:
Do you have people in your life that you look to for guidance?

OBAMA:
Well, my pastor [Jeremiah Wright] is certainly someone who I have an enormous amount of respect for.

I have a number of friends who are ministers. Reverend Meeks is a close friend and colleague of mine in the state Senate. Father Michael Pfleger is a dear friend, and somebody I interact with closely.

FALSANI:
Those two will keep you on your toes.

OBAMA:
And theyr'e good friends. Because both of them are in the public eye, there are ways we can all reflect on what's happening to each of us in ways that are useful.

I think they can help me, they can appreciate certain specific challenges that I go through as a public figure.

FALSANI:
Jack Ryan [Obama's Republican opponent in the U.S. Senate race at the time] said talking about your faith is frought with peril for a public figure.

OBAMA:
Which is why you generally will not see me spending a lot of time talking about it on the stump.

Alongside my own deep personal faith, I am a follower, as well, of our civic religion. I am a big believer in the separation of church and state. I am a big believer in our constitutional structure. I mean, I'm a law professor at the University of Chicago teaching constitutional law. I am a great admirer of our founding charter, and its resolve to prevent theocracies from forming, and its resolve to prevent disruptive strains of fundamentalism from taking root ion this country.

As I said before, in my own public policy, I'm very suspicious of religious certainty expressing itself in politics.

Now, that's different form a belief that values have to inform our public policy. I think it's perfectly consistent to say that I want my government to be operating for all faiths and all peoples, including atheists and agnostics, while also insisting that there are values tha tinform my politics that are appropriate to talk about.

A standard line in my stump speech during this campaign is that my politics are informed by a belief that we're all connected. That if there's a child on the South Side of Chicago that can't read, that makes a difference in my life even if it's not my own child. If there's a senior citizen in downstate Illinois that's struggling to pay for their medicine and having to chose between medicine and the rent, that makes my life poorer even if it's not my grandparent. And if there's an Arab American family that's being rounded up by John Ashcroft without the benefit of due process, that threatens my civil liberties.

I can give religious expression to that. I am my brother's keeper, I am my sister's keeper, we are all children of God. Or I can express it in secular terms. But the basic premise remains the same. I think sometimes Democrats have made the mistake of shying away from a conversation about values for fear that they sacrifice the important value of tolerance. And I don't think those two things are mutually exclusive.

FALSANI:
Do you think it's wrong for people to want to know about a civic leader's spirituality?

OBAMA:
I don't' think it's wrong. I think that political leaders are subject to all sorts of vetting by the public, and this can be a component of that.

I think that I am disturbed by, let me put it this way: I think there is an enormous danger on the part of public figures to rationalize or justify their actions by claiming God's mandate.

I think there is this tendency that I don't think is healthy for public figures to wear religion on their sleeve as a means to insulate themselves from criticism, or dialogue with people who disagree with them.

FALSANI:
The conversation stopper, when you say you're a Christian and leave it at that.

OBAMA:
Where do you move forward with that?

This is something that I'm sure I'd have serious debates with my fellow Christians about. I think that the difficult thing about any religion, including Christianity, is that at some level there is a call to evangelize and prostelytize. There's the belief, certainly in some quarters, that people haven't embraced Jesus Christ as their personal savior that they're going to hell.

FALSANI:
You don't believe that?

OBAMA:
I find it hard to believe that my God would consign four-fifths of the world to hell.

I can't imagine that my God would allow some little Hindu kid in India who never interacts with the Christian faith to somehow burn for all eternity.

That's just not part of my religious makeup.

Part of the reason I think it's always difficult for public figures to talk about this is that the nature of politics is that you want to have everybody like you and project the best possible traits onto you. Oftentimes that's by being as vague as possible, or appealing to the lowest commong denominators. The more specific and detailed you are on issues as personal and fundamental as your faith, the more potentially dangerous it is.

FALSANI:
Do you ever have people who know you're a Christian question a particular stance you take on an issue, how can you be a Christian and ...

OBAMA:
Like the right to choose.

I haven't been challenged in those direct ways. And to that extent, I give the public a lot of credit. I'm always stuck by how much common sense the American people have. They get confused sometimes, watch FoxNews or listen to talk radio. That's dangerous sometimes. But generally, Americans are tolerant and I think recognize that faith is a personal thing, and they may feel very strongly about an issue like abortion or gay marriage, but if they discuss it with me as an elected official they will discuss it with me in those terms and not, say, as 'you call yourself a Christian.' I cannot recall that ever happening.

FALSANI:
Do you get questions about your faith?

OBAMA:
Obviously as an African American politician rooted in the African American community, I spend a lot of time in the black church. I have no qualms in those settings in participating fully in those services and celebrating my God in that wonderful community that is the black church.

(he pauses)
But I also try to be . . . Rarely in those settings do people come up to me and say, what are your beliefs. They are going to presume, and rightly so. Although they may presume a set of doctrines that I subscribe to that I don't necessarily subscribe to.

But I don't think that's unique to me. I think that each of us when we walk into our church or mosque or synagogue are interpreting that experience in different ways, are reading scriptures in different ways and are arriving at our own understanding at different ways and in different phases.

I don't know a healthy congregation or an effective minister who doesn't recognize that.

If all it took was someone proclaiming I believe Jesus Christ and that he died for my sins, and that was all there was to it, people wouldn't have to keep coming to church, would they.

FALSANI:
Do you believe in heaven?

OBAMA:
Do I believe in the harps and clouds and wings?

FALSANI:
A place spiritually you go to after you die?

OBAMA:
What I believe in is that if I live my life as well as I can, that I will be rewarded. I don't presume to have knowledge of what happens after I die. But I feel very strongly that whether the reward is in the here and now or in the hereafter, the aligning myself to my faith and my values is a good thing.

When I tuck in my daughters at night and I feel like I've been a good father to them, and I see in them that I am transferring values that I got from my mother and that they're kind people and that they're honest people, and they're curious people, that's a little piece of heaven.

FALSANI:
Do you believe in sin?

OBAMA:
Yes.

FALSANI:
What is sin?

OBAMA:
Being out of alignment with my values.

FALSANI:
What happens if you have sin in your life?

OBAMA:
I think it's the same thing as the question about heaven. In the same way that if I'm true to myself and my faith that that is its own reward, when I'm not true to it, it's its own punishment.

FALSANI:
Where do you find spiritual inspiration? Music, nature, literature, people, a conduit you plug into?

OBAMA:
There are so many.

Nothing is more powerful than the black church experience. A good choir and a good sermon in the black church, it's pretty hard not to be move and be transported.

I can be transported by watching a good performance of Hamlet, or reading Toni Morrison's Song of Solomon, or listening to Miles Davis.

FALSANI:
Is there something that you go back to as a touchstone, a book, a particular piece of music, a place ...

OBAMA:
As I said before, in my own sort of mental library, the Civil Rights movement has a powerful hold on me. It's a point in time where I think heaven and earth meet. Because it's a moment in which a collective faith transforms everything. So when I read Gandhi or I read King or I read certain passages of Abraham Lincoln and I think about those times where people's values are tested, I think those inspire me.

FALSANI:
What are you doing when you feel the most centered, the most aligned spiritually?

OBAMA:
I think I already described it. It's when I'm being true to myself. And that can happen in me making a speech or it can happen in me playing with my kids, or it can happen in a small interaction with a security guard in a building when I'm recognizing them and exchanging a good word.

FALSANI:
Is there someone you would look to as an example of how not to do it?

OBAMA:
Bin Laden.

(grins broadly)

FALSANI:
... An example of a role model, who combined everything you said you want to do in your life, and your faith?

OBAMA:
I think Gandhi is a great example of a profoundly spiritual man who acted and risked everything on behalf of those values but never slipped into intolerance or dogma. He seemed to always maintain an air of doubt about him.

I think Dr. King, and Lincoln. Those three are good examples for me of people who applied their faith to a larger canvas without allowing that faith to metasticize into something that is hurtful.

FALSANI:
Can we go back to that morning service in 1987 or 88 -- when you have a moment that you can go back to that as an epiphany...

OBAMA:
It wasn't an epiphany.

It was much more of a gradual process for me. I know there are some people who fall out. Which is wonderful. God bless them. For me it was probably because there is a certain self-consciousness that I possess as somebody with probably too much book learning, and also a very polyglot background.

FALSANI:
It wasn't like a moment where you finally got it? It was a symbol of that decision?

OBAMA:
Exactly. I think it was just a moment to certify or publicly affirm a growing faith in me.

-END-

[chumdawg]

That's the most intelligent discussion of religion that I have ever heard from any politician.

[sike]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

That's the most intelligent discussion of religion that I have ever heard from any politician.

I agree. Though I disagree with him, as a laymen, he seems to have put thought into expressing his convictions.

I would have loved to see what he would have said if the interviewer asked, "And what in your mind is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ?" Because much of liberation theology (of which Wright's church is a rather extreme branch) denies Christ's deity, bodily resurrection, and substitutionary atonement. All of which would put him directly out of Orthodox Christianity.

But I agree with Chum, I have not heard other politicians express and elocute theological convictions so clearly.

[chumdawg]

Sike...he appears to have a catholic view of religion in general, and judging by what he said in this interview about both Judaism and Jesus Christ, my guess would be that he falls outside of the "Orthodox Christianity" you describe.

It's funny to think that in the 1920's Catholicism was considered a non-starter for a presidential candidate, and even in 1960 we weren't sure.

Of course, Al Smith lived in a day when women couldn't vote. Kennedy lived in a day when blacks used other water fountains. The country gets more and more liberal all the time.

[Ninkobei]

god, obama so charismatic even in plain text..its scary.

[sike]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Sike...he appears to have a catholic view of religion in general...

I agree. Love it or hate it, pluralism is here to stay, folks.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by sike

I agree. Love it or hate it, pluralism is here to stay, folks.

Is pluralism here to stay, or is Christianity on the decline?

[sike]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Is pluralism here to stay, or is Christianity on the decline?

Very tough question, chummy.

I'd say as a tradition Christianity is heading out the window in the U.S....but as a tradition Christianity (or any organized religion that makes high personal demands) has always been fairly terrible. Who in their right mind wants God/god as a past time?

I think Christianity, as the organic mechanism Christ envisioned, is on a steady up tick in the U.S. True, the numbers will be smaller (overall) than in the past where almost every American claimed to be a Christian (probably more out of fear or tradition or some confused patriotism than actual devotion and faith based conviction to follow Jesus Christ), but historically the church has always been better off (purer) not being the most popular kid on the block...popularity breeds power, power breeds ease, and ease breeds corruption.

Christ called it the narrow road traveled by few for a reason.

edit: Oh, and pluralism is certainly here to stay.

[chumdawg]

I think it's important to consider the circumstances of what Christianity, if we can call it that, meant in Christ's time...and also to consider the circumstances of what it has meant throughout history. Christianity does best, as you may hint at, when its constituents are oppressed. When things are going well...well, it seems like so much pomp and circumstance.

I suppose the same could, and should, be said of any other religion...so recognize that I am not singling any one religion out.

Though...I think we would have to admit that Christians are presently losing the "hard-core" battle, and handily.

[fluid.forty.one]

I'm a religion noob.. how is it possible to be Orthodoxy Christian and still be considered "Christian".. or are they not.

I'm sure most Christians would have qualms with someone who claimed they were Christian yet doubt "Christ's deity, bodily resurrection, and substitutionary atonement." (some of the things I cannot buy into). I have no doubt that Christ lived and was a great, inspirational man. I also don't deny there being a God, even in a specifically Christian sense... but some things I have no faith in. I wouldn't consider myself a Christian because of that.

I was particularly interested in this part
--------
I find it hard to believe that my God would consign four-fifths of the world to hell.

I can't imagine that my God would allow some little Hindu kid in India who never interacts with the Christian faith to somehow burn for all eternity.
--------

I was under the impression that most, at least "casual" American, Christians believed that this was only the case if those people were given knowledge of Christ, but still deny Him.

I think it's ridiculous to approach someone who has been a Muslim for 40 years and tell him about Christ and expect him to buy into it... and then he burns in hell for that?

I could be wrong... that's just my understanding on that subject.

[fluid.forty.one]

oh -- and what an eloquent, intelligent and tolerant discussion of such an emotional topic by a political figure. As someone said above, his charisma jumps out of the plain text even.

[sike]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Though...I think we would have to admit that Christians are presently losing the "hard-core" battle, and handily.

I understood and agreed with the rest of your post...but was a bit curious as to this section. Enlighten me with your intentions here, please.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by sike

I understood and agreed with the rest of your post...but was a bit curious as to this section. Enlighten me with your intentions here, please.

I had only observations, not intentions. I'm looking at where Europe is and where the US seems to be heading. These societies are growing more and more secular all the time.

[FINtastic]

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

I'm a religion noob.. how is it possible to be Orthodoxy Christian and still be considered "Christian".. or are they not.

I'm sure most Christians would have qualms with someone who claimed they were Christian yet doubt "Christ's deity, bodily resurrection, and substitutionary atonement." (some of the things I cannot buy into). I have no doubt that Christ lived and was a great, inspirational man. I also don't deny there being a God, even in a specifically Christian sense... but some things I have no faith in. I wouldn't consider myself a Christian because of that.

I was particularly interested in this part
--------
I find it hard to believe that my God would consign four-fifths of the world to hell.

I can't imagine that my God would allow some little Hindu kid in India who never interacts with the Christian faith to somehow burn for all eternity.
--------

I was under the impression that most, at least "casual" American, Christians believed that this was only the case if those people were given knowledge of Christ, but still deny Him.

I think it's ridiculous to approach someone who has been a Muslim for 40 years and tell him about Christ and expect him to buy into it... and then he burns in hell for that?

I could be wrong... that's just my understanding on that subject.

It depends on who you are listening to. You have to remember that are so many different denominations of Christianity, and it came that way as a reason - they have all have different ways at looking at approaching their faith. Now a lot of the ones who are the loudest (the fundies) do believe that, but there are certain denominations that don't believe in that sort of thing. Going to a Catholic school, I know we were taught essentially a similiar thing as Obama's thoughts on the issue (which strangely enough kind ties back into sike's and chum's point about Obama's faith sounding close to Catholicism). In other words, the church didn't believe a person was damned for eternity if they hadn't ever been taught about Christ. And they even said that a person wasn't damned if they were something like a Muslim who was living a good and pure life. I don't want to say too much more in fear of butchering the church's stance, but it was basically something along the lines of what Obama was saying.

[sike]

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

I'm a religion noob.. how is it possible to be Orthodoxy Christian and still be considered "Christian".. or are they not.

Mostly not by those Christians considering themselves "Orthodox". (Though admittedly that is a pretty hard criteria to nail down)

but some things I have no faith in. I wouldn't consider myself a Christian because of that.

That is very intellectually honest of you. Obama did, after all, spend 20 years is church that was redefining Christianity in its own terms. His exact beliefs on those central issues would probably be very difficult to nail down...he is a very good politician.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

I think it's ridiculous to approach someone who has been a Muslim for 40 years and tell him about Christ and expect him to buy into it... and then he burns in hell for that?

I could be wrong... that's just my understanding on that subject.

From the evangelical standpoint, he's going to burn in hell if you don't get to him in time. Do the best you can do. God is watching you.

[sike]

I may be mistaken, FIN, but I think chum was using the word "catholic" (little "c") in the sense of "universal"...that was how I understood him to be using it anyway.

Originally Posted by FINtastic

It depends on who you are listening to. You have to remember that are so many different denominations of Christianity, and it came that way as a reason - they have all have different ways at looking at approaching their faith. Now a lot of the ones who are the loudest (the fundies) do believe that, but there are certain denominations that don't believe in that sort of thing. Going to a Catholic school, I know we were taught essentially a similiar thing as Obama's thoughts on the issue (which strangely enough kind ties back into sike's and chum's point about Obama's faith sounding close to Catholicism). In other words, the church didn't believe a person was damned for eternity if they hadn't ever been taught about Christ. And they even said that a person wasn't damned if they were something like a Muslim who was living a good and pure life. I don't want to say too much more in fear of butchering the church's stance, but it was basically something along the lines of what Obama was saying.

[FINtastic]

Originally Posted by sike

I may be mistaken, FIN, but I think chum was using the word "catholic" (little "c") in the sense of "universal"...that was how I understood him to be using it anyway.

Well I'll be a nickel in a hay barrel, you might be right.

In that case, it doesn't tie into your points at all.

I think the thing that threw me off is that he later in that post had segue into Al Smith's and JFK's Catholicism. That's enough to get a feeble mind such as myself all confused and stuff.

[fluid.forty.one]

hmm

I should read the bible one of these days.. I just know I won't be able to get over some of my, for lack of a better name, "certain doubts". I'm sure I can still come away with something positive from reading the Good Book though.

[sike]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I had only observations, not intentions. I'm looking at where Europe is and where the US seems to be heading. These societies are growing more and more secular all the time.

Ah. And yet all across Europe the house church movement is exploding. It certainly doesn't get the same attention as new 50million dollar basilicas or private jets (and some such), but its happening.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a disillusioned post-millennialist...the church has serious retrenching to do and a whole lot less finger pointing to do before it can be rightly lifting up the name of Jesus. That combined with a whole lot less of screwing around on wife's and stealing money from the church would be nice.

[sike]

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

hmm

I should read the bible one of these days.. I just know I won't be able to get over some of my, for lack of a better name, "certain doubts". I'm sure I can still come away with something positive from reading the Good Book though.

if you ever want some suggestions are where to start...I'd be happy to throw a few ideas your way.

[fluid.forty.one]

I'm a cover to cover kinda guy

but seriously though, I was much younger the last time I tried and I got most of the way through the Old Testament. I could probably do it now.

What's frustrating for me is that I know I'll never believe some of the things that are the backbone of Christianity, yet I appreciate the goodness (for the most part) of the Christian church and it's positive influences on families and children. I would love to raise a child in such a positive environment yet I'd also be living a lie.

[chumdawg]

This was truly a fascinating article. This may be the most fascinating part of it:

FALSANI:
Where do you find spiritual inspiration? Music, nature, literature, people, a conduit you plug into?

...

Is there something that you go back to as a touchstone, a book, a particular piece of music, a place ...

OBAMA:
As I said before, in my own sort of mental library, the Civil Rights movement has a powerful hold on me. It's a point in time where I think heaven and earth meet. Because it's a moment in which a collective faith transforms everything.

Collective faith, he says. Secularism gets derided all the time by evangelicals, but have evangelicals ever accomplished anything greater than the Civil Rights movement?

[sike]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

This was truly a fascinating article. This may be the most fascinating part of it:

Collective faith, he says. Secularism gets derided all the time by evangelicals, but have evangelicals ever accomplished anything greater than the Civil Rights movement?

Try the protestant reformation. First and Second Great Awakenings. The Civil Rights movement (as we think of it) was largely national...those others were global. And all were, in large part, about freeing the oppressed.

I wouldn't in any way minimize the efforts of evangelicals in the fight for Civil Rights either. (I know that can go both ways)

I would also like to know what exactly he means by "collective faith".

[chumdawg]

The Protestant Reformation was a battle within Christianity, no? The Great Awakenings...what exactly did they accomplish?

[Re-Dirk-ulous]

I think Obama is secretly an atheist. It would be cool if he were outspoken about it.

Think about it. His mother was an atheist. His father was raised a Muslim but later became a confirmed atheist as well. He also described his stepfather as "a man who saw religion as not particularly useful."

In his book, Obama explains how, through working with black churches as a community organizer while in his twenties, he came to understand "the power of the African-American religious tradition to spur social change."

The problem is many African-Americans (and others too) are very religious and wouldn't vote/support him. I'd be all thumbs-up!

[aexchange]

Originally Posted by Re-Dirk-ulous

I think Obama is secretly an atheist. It would be cool if he were outspoken about it.

Think about it. His mother was an atheist. His father was raised a Muslim but later became a confirmed atheist as well. He also described his stepfather as "a man who saw religion as not particularly useful."

In his book, Obama explains how, through working with black churches as a community organizer while in his twenties, he came to understand "the power of the African-American religious tradition to spur social change."

The problem is many African-Americans (and others too) are very religious and wouldn't vote/support him. I'd be all thumbs-up!

i'm not sure if you are being sarcastic here, but i don't know how you read his interview and come away with the impression the guy is a closet atheist.

[92bDad]

Let me pipe in...however I will do my best to communicate on my own understanding.

By NO means am I of any authority and obviously I am with my own baggage.

I am a Christ follower and believe in the Biblical version of the trinity in God, Holy Spirit and Jesus.

Don't ask me to quote scripture, that happens to be one of my major hangups...I struggle seriously with memorizing of researching and studying scripture.

My point there is simply being honest with who I am.

There are major issues within people that effect their perception of Religion.

I can share from my side, I am selfish...I want what I want and the thought of having to sacrifice is a challenge. I do believe this is a common challenge for many people and thus effects how we all view religion.

As a Christ follower, I have my moments of being obedient to my faith, but as flesh and blood, I have my moments of disobedience. I believe that God has given me and us 100% free will.

In this free will we are subject to our own understanding, which basically is one of this world.

I believe he is a loving God who wants me to choose Him freely.

I believe that in scripture God spells out clearly advice, boundaries if you will along with natural consequences...ultimately leaving the choice up to us.

My function is to simply share what I believe is the truth about God by loving him with all my heart soul and mind, to love my neighbor as myself.

What does that mean...well, if i'm preaching and trying to motivate through guilt...is that love? I believe not. It is perhaps more based on my own fear in an attempt to justify my belief.

This to me is where other Christians fail the most. My apologies for making a judgemental statement...this is simply how I feel based on my observations through various Church groups.

I also believe that most people want to do the right things, but that definition is seriously clouded

I believe on both sides that we try to intelectualize the debate and actually spend more time debating than living out our faith.

I believe there is a reference in scripture that talks about being neither hot, nor cold and being spit out for being lukewarm. I believe this reference is to those who claim the faith but don't follow through in living the faith.

I also believe there are harsh realities regarding those who choose to not follow Christ, but that may not be a debate for this board/forum as it can come off too judgemental.

Forgive for posting on this matter, however I am also jumping as this appears to be the topic of the thread as it relates to our pending President. I will choose to make NO COMMENTS about Obama and his faith. Simply put, I don't know the guy personally so to make any comments on his faith would simply be wasted words.

Anyway, back the subject of faith...I believe God is a loving God who allows free will for a reason, He wants us to choose Him of our own free will as I stated earlier. I believe that free will allows us to make choices which each of us can identify as a reason we are all works in progress.

Ultimately, none of us have ANY control of others...we ALL have free will and for either side to try and debate, manipulate or control others is fruitless.

I Pray for all, including myself...may I learn from my past mistakes/sins and ultimately may my walk be greater than my talk.

If anything, I Pray that Obama's walk is greater than his talk...if so, then he will be a great President.

[u2sarajevo]

Originally Posted by aexchange

i'm not sure if you are being sarcastic here, but i don't know how you read his interview and come away with the impression the guy is a closet atheist.

I think he's wanting Obama to share his views.

[u2sarajevo]

Yeah studying scripture is so hard. There just isn't any material out there to help you with your studies.....

[DirkFTW]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

This was truly a fascinating article. This may be the most fascinating part of it:

Collective faith, he says. Secularism gets derided all the time by evangelicals, but have evangelicals ever accomplished anything greater than the Civil Rights movement?

Abolition of the British slave trade (William Wilberforce et al.).
Birth of Western science and philosophy under Newton, Pasteur, Kepler, Paschal, Fleming, Edwards and Descartes.
Saved Nero from having to explain why he set Rome ablaze.

Oh, and the whole saved many many millions from eternal damnation and all that jazz.

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by u2sarajevo

Yeah studying scripture is so hard. There just isn't any material out there to help you with your studies.....

LOL ............. too much help -- not enough relationship usually, IMO.

[fluid.forty.one]

Originally Posted by 92bDad

I also believe there are harsh realities regarding those who choose to not follow Christ, but that may not be a debate for this board/forum as it can come off too judgemental.

Ironically, this mindset is one of the main reasons why a lot of people dislike Christianity. I think more people would take *some* Christians, as well as the religion itself, more seriously if it weren't so arrogant.

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

Ironically, this mindset is one of the main reasons why a lot of people dislike Christianity. I think more people would take *some* Christians, as well as the religion itself, more seriously if it weren't so arrogant.

what's the arrogant part, thinking that Christ is the only way to heaven, or thinking that this board would be judgmental concerning that idea?

[fluid.forty.one]

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

what's the arrogant part, thinking that Christ is the only way to heaven, or thinking that this board would be judgmental concerning that idea?

Thinking that excepting Christ, no matter what the circumstance, is the only way to avoid a hell-type afterlife. It goes back to what chum and I (and obama addressed it too) were talking about earlier in the thread.

[u2sarajevo]

But that is truth to someone that believes the word of God. How is that arrogant if it's true?

[fluid.forty.one]

Originally Posted by u2sarajevo

But that is truth to someone that believes the word of God. How is that arrogant if it's true?

It's possible to think a belief is arrogant. Actually, all "arrogant" things stem from beliefs don't they?

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by u2sarajevo

But that is truth to someone that believes the word of God. How is that arrogant if it's true?

The humble approach would be to sincerely believe that your interpretation of God's word is accurate, but to also recognize that God and his Word are far larger than we humans could ever have the capacity to realize...and maybe we as individuals or even as collective religions don't have the whole thing figured out just yet.

[sike]

I think arrogance comes more from the WAY a message is believed or delivered than just the simple fact of it being believed...a belief claiming something exclusive is either right or wrong...but not necessarily arrogant.

[sike]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

The humble approach would be to sincerely believe that your interpretation of God's word is accurate, but to also recognize that God and his Word are far larger than we humans could ever have the capacity to realize...and maybe we as individuals or even as collective religions don't have the whole thing figured out just yet.

I'm all for the unknowability and transcendence of God...but if God has reached into His creation to reveal Himself and his will then both He and His will can be known as far as He has revealed Himself. Not perfectly or fully, but truthfully.