Mavericks fans: Wake Up! (Part II) - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Hitman · 07-22-2003, 10:28 PM

When I first joined this forum, I started a thread entitled "Mavericks Fans, Wake Up!"

I thought now would be the right time to unveil the sequel to that thread.

Where are we now? Well, we won 60 games last year. We would/ could have won more, if Finley didn't get injured at the end of the season. If Dirk didn't miss that regular season game against the Spurs. If we didn't blow that lead to the Lakers. Yada, yada, yada. We could/ should have beat the Spurs in the playoffs, if Dirk hadn't got hurt, if we didn't blow that lead in the 4th quarter. If only we had some luck.

We didn't have that luck.

Either way, it was a fun ride.

People are crying! The sky is falling!!

If we only got Zo. (If we only got a guy who hadn't played in a year, whose kidney could give out at any second and who admittedly is only a 25 mpg guy. WTF? That is supposed to be the difference? What are the odds of Zo putting up 12 and 6 for the Nets this year? Not good.)

If we only got Malone. (Yes, a 40 year old power forward who lacks the quickness to guard the power forwards of the new millenium, whose rebounding skills are diminishing quickly, but wants to shoot enough to break the all time scoring record! Just what we need!)

If we only got PJ or Olokowandi or Rasho. I got news for you folks: PJ, Olo and Rasho are not likely to be difference makers in the NBA finals.

If we only, if we only, if we only. It all is getting old. Maybe we didn't need to make any moves. Maybe we get ahead by staying put. Is that possible?

Lets examine the situation:

1. The Lakers: Shaq is a year older, which is a bad thing for a 350 pound 32 year old with bad feet and toes and a history of weight problems. They added 40 year old Karl Malone, who if the history of 40 year old NBA athletes holds to form (History Lesson -- "History ALWAYS repeats itself), then he should be hitting a serious plateu this year, especially with a team that has an "X" marked on it. Plus, he needs 14 ppg over the next 2 years to get the scoring record. Does anyone seriously think that is not going to be a problem? They added a 35 year old shoot first point who happens to be facing serious assault charges. Whoopee. He will also have problems adapting to ZenMaster's overrated "Triangle Offense."
Oh, and their superstar two guard is facing 4 to life in prison for rape. Make no mistake, this team looks good on paper, but....they could have some vulnerability, don't you think?

2. The Kings: Webber is a year older and injury prone. Vlade is gaining on 40. Bibby has been exposed as extremely overated. Peja is great and the depth is still good, but the gap will be very narrowed between us and this team next year for obvious reasons.

3. The Spurs: They beat us in the WCFs. Duncan is awesome. Other than that, they have guys that are great role players. Parker, Ginobolli. I say they take a minor upgrade with Nesterovic. Their spiritual leader, the Admiral, is gone.

4. The Wolves: KG has some help. Who?

Sam Cassell: Yawn. He bring the same shoot first mentaility that Troy Hudson brough, only he is 7 years older. He will sit on the bench in the playoffs.

Latrell Sprewell: Ummm...has anyone noticed how far this guy has fallen? First of all, he is a team CANCER. Second of all, he barely shoots 40%. BARELY. Third of all, he is now going to be the fourth or fifth option on this team, and his going to be playing small forward. (Wally needs to play the 2). Latrell is going downhill fast and is not going to be a difference maker in the West.

Michael Olokowandi - Yes, the reincarnation of Joe Barely Cares. He has a long term deal, and this will be the last we hear from this chump. I will take Raef and Shawn over this guy.

Of course, we are left with the Mavericks. That fun, run and gun team from Eastern Texas. What do they have? Lets see.

1. Dirk - The guy is the best player in the league waiting to happen. The ABSOLUTE Best thing that could happen to him personally is that the other Mavs decline a bit offensively, because then he will feel less guilty about the Big 3 (or Big 4) becoming the "Big 1." Which is EXACTLY what it needs to become. 30 ppgs and 11 boards is a strong possibility, and if that happens then we are in super shape.
2. Nash - Two time all NBA point is one of the last pure points left. When he is covered tight he gets all involved, when you play an inch off he can devestate you from the perimeter. He is 30, in great shape and in the hands of a personal trainer. He has not showed any signs of decline and should continue at this great level for three to five more years.
3. Fin - Solid is the best word to describe. He has the athletic ability to take a nod from the likes of Joe Dumars and become a world class defensive 2. If he can get over the notion of "I still consider myself a big time scorer" (Fin - you are not ever going to be a "Big Time" scorer on a contender) and apply his physical gifts to the defensive end while still putting up 15-18 ppg, then he is worth his salary the next 4 years.
4. Bradley and Raef - We have a 7'6" guy who is such a force on the interior defense that he is coveted by the whole league and a guy in Raef who can put up 13 and 9 with a little confidence. How about our coach gives him a little? Are these guys perfect? No way. But I take this duo over Minny's centers or SA's Centers. And with a little luck, Sac's centers.
5. Nick the Quick - The Wildcard. He showed that he can still be an All Star point, and some team is going to want him for the stretch run. We would be wise to hang on the Nicky until the best possible offer comes around, and that could take us into 2004. But he is a valubale commodity, and he will help us win a bunch of games up until the time that we trade him. But we should trade him for defensive/ rebounding / interior help before the trading deadline. But it is great that we have something VERY valuable to trade, isn't it?
6. Reserves; probably - Raja, Walt, Howard, and hopefully Oggy and Daniels. I will go to war with them.
7. Cuban - The scapegoat. Everybody loves to rip on him. Do people realize that teams like the Pacers and the Sixers have based their ENTIRE offseason on AVOIDING the luxury tax? And do you realize that Cuban mocks the luxury tax? He will pay the tax and views it as the price to win. Lots of owners view it as some kind of "cap" that they won't cross. What is not to love about the guy? Sure, he can be over-meddling, but is a GREAT owner, and Maverick fans do not realize how great they have it with him. He would be sorely missed if he ever sold the team. With him at the helm, the Mavs will always be in the hunt, because he is willing to pay the tax and take on a loss to field a great team. Most owners aren't.

We have problems, but there are no guarantees for anyone. The Lakers, Spurs, Kings and Wolves all have problems. We still have youth on our side, and we can still win 60+ games this year. We have an expendable and desirable piece in Nick, who could bring us something big in return by February...even if it doesn't by October 30th. Our defense was way improved last year and could be even more improved this year, as guys improve their individual defense, and we as a team continue to improve our team D. We have an improving MVP candidate. two guys who are contenders for All NBA team and a sixth man of the year candidate who could bring back something very big -- but it might not be for another six months.

Bottom line is this:

Reports of the Mavericks demise has been greatly exxagerated.

Hitman

Razor · 07-22-2003, 11:33 PM

Hitman you are the man. That was a fine fine post.

Last season was awesome. The Mavs should stay put, and add later in the season, or next season.

If we dont use our exceptions, can we use them later in the season?

Can we trade them?

Just curious

ames7 · 07-23-2003, 12:18 AM

Can't trade them. Not sure if we can use them later. But you're right, we can probably trade Nick later & maximize on it.

This offseason has been disappointing, but it certainly isn't the end of the world. Cuban's a great owner. He sucks as a GM, but he's a great owner. & that would be the GM's fault.

dude1394 · 07-23-2003, 06:48 AM

Fine post and I agree with it. All whiners need not apply.

Big Boy Laroux · 07-23-2003, 07:30 AM

i don't think people are saying that these players would have put us over the top. at least that's not the case for me.

My frustrations stem from two unproductive offseasons in a row, having our GM in maui, watching the front office put all its eggs into one basket only to act like a jilted lover when it didn't work out. what happened to "all free agents will love to play in dallas because of the playstations, the chairs, the jet, etc." as far as cuban and his willingness to pay a luxury tax... unfortunately, that only helps us in trades, cause we don't have cap room to sign anyone for more than the MLE! and in trades, you have to give someone up, which means if we want a big man, one of our good players has got to go.

also, did you just say payton is a shoot-first PG? he may score, but i would hardly call him that.

as far as telling us to wake up... i believe you should take off your rose-colored glasses. unfortunately, your post reeks of homerism. i agree that many people on this board are the equivalent of chicken little. however, it is OBVIOUS the wolves made upgrades, as did the lakers. age plays no role, as malone and payton have shown that they are still great players. and shaq is shaq. as for the wolves, they got better without giving up jack.

AnMan21 · 07-23-2003, 08:21 AM

I have to agree with Hitman here. It's clear to me that the Mavs aren't in any worse shape than they were last year. Sure the Wolves made some upgrades, but I'm not even sure if they made enough to get them out of the first round. What if they meet the Lakers again in the 1st? Kandi is WAY overrated (just like Miller, just like Rasho, just like most centers in the league). Spree hasn't impressed me much since his return to the NBA. Wally is a "pretty-boy" cry baby who needs to stop worrying about how many touches he gets a game and how his hair looks. Cassel has been shipped around the league for a reason...and Troy Hudson had a good playoff run. As Mike Bibby proves, this means nothing!

Ummmmm Ok · 07-23-2003, 08:31 AM

You can say what you want, but Garnett alone with no help almost got to the 2nd round, surround him by players that are a little better than some spares, he will make it too the 2nd round. At what they they have done and what we have done this offseason, I might not wanna face them the first round.

Cassell/Hudson vs Nash/NVE
Spree vs Finley
Wally vs Howard?
Garnett vs Dirk
Kandi vs Bradley

Say what you want but the Wolves just got alot better.

---

If Kobe gets out of his problems, which he will as he's an NBA superstar and he could have murdered someone and they would just give him a slap on the hand, they are right now the team to beat.

Payton vs Nash/NVE
Kobe vs Finley
George vs Howard?
Malone vs Dirk
Shaq vs Bradley/Raef

Malone and Shaq are going to eat us up downlow. Dirk and any combo of centers we have can't stop them from each scoring 30 each. Throw in Kobe's 25 and Paytons 15, and you got 100 right there, and thats not including what George or Fox brings to the table.

---

Should I even go into Sacramento or San Antonio?

MavKikiNYC · 07-23-2003, 08:44 AM

Nothing to worry about.

Dooby · 07-23-2003, 09:09 AM

MavKikiNYC · 07-23-2003, 09:19 AM

foglemann · 07-23-2003, 09:24 AM

I agree to some degree Hitman, but the biggest problem with your post is that the other teams did improve. Just because we didn't do anything doesn't make it better. Because we didn't get what we wanted, doesn't make it the plan that should have been played the whole time. When other teams improve, you get left behind. We all know this has and will keep happening. Especially with us, if we don't do anything, we will have regressed and hurt our chances to compete with the better teams.

Bayliss · 07-23-2003, 09:44 AM

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1. Dirk - The guy is the best player in the league waiting to happen. The ABSOLUTE Best thing that could happen to him personally is that the other Mavs decline a bit offensively, because then he will feel less guilty about the Big 3 (or Big 4) becoming the "Big 1." Which is EXACTLY what it needs to become. 30 ppgs and 11 boards is a strong possibility, and if that happens then we are in super shape.

Dirk is 2 years away from scoring 30 points. In 2000-2001 he averaged 21.8 and in 2001-2002, he averaged 23.4. That is a difference of 1.6. Last year he averaged 25.1 that makes it another difference of 1.7... see a pattern? Next year he'll probably average somewhere between 26-27 points. But the year(s) following next year, he could obtain 30 points a game.

He'll never average 11 rebounds in Nellie's system. Don't get me wrong... he is a very good rebounder. But Nellie does not allow him to get offensive rebounds. And it hurts his stats tremendously.

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2. Nash - Two time all NBA point is one of the last pure points left. When he is covered tight he gets all involved, when you play an inch off he can devestate you from the perimeter. He is 30, in great shape and in the hands of a personal trainer. He has not showed any signs of decline and should continue at this great level for three to five more years.

Nash may not have showed a decline but he plays a position in which typically is hard to maintain when you get older. Also throw in the fact that his style of play is the most wreckless out of any point guard and the Mavs will have to sign him to a big contract... and you can see why some Mav fans are worried.

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3. Fin - Solid is the best word to describe. He has the athletic ability to take a nod from the likes of Joe Dumars and become a world class defensive 2. If he can get over the notion of "I still consider myself a big time scorer" (Fin - you are not ever going to be a "Big Time" scorer on a contender) and apply his physical gifts to the defensive end while still putting up 15-18 ppg, then he is worth his salary the next 4 years.

Fin will never be a big time defender again. When Dirk first came here he has no defense. Now he has improved until he is adequate. Finley has done the opposite. He has regressed. And him getting older and taking more jumpshots isn't helping the cause....

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4. Bradley and Raef - We have a 7'6" guy who is such a force on the interior defense that he is coveted by the whole league and a guy in Raef who can put up 13 and 9 with a little confidence. How about our coach gives him a little? Are these guys perfect? No way. But I take this duo over Minny's centers or SA's Centers. And with a little luck, Sac's centers.

Why would Raef put up 9 rebounds a game? He can't even crach 8 boards. And these two centers make Kandi look like "Mr. Consistency."

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5. Nick the Quick - The Wildcard. He showed that he can still be an All Star point, and some team is going to want him for the stretch run. We would be wise to hang on the Nicky until the best possible offer comes around, and that could take us into 2004. But he is a valubale commodity, and he will help us win a bunch of games up until the time that we trade him. But we should trade him for defensive/ rebounding / interior help before the trading deadline. But it is great that we have something VERY valuable to trade, isn't it?

Nick is only valuable to the Mavs for the hope he can bring an inside presence to the team. If he is on the team, he hurts our chances more than he helps it. No matter how many "hot" games he has.

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6. Reserves; probably - Raja, Walt, Howard, and hopefully Oggy and Daniels. I will go to war with them.

Walt is gone. I like the selection of Howard, and do believe he will start by midseason... and Raja is a nice backup. But we have major holes.

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7. Cuban - The scapegoat. Everybody loves to rip on him. Do people realize that teams like the Pacers and the Sixers have based their ENTIRE offseason on AVOIDING the luxury tax? And do you realize that Cuban mocks the luxury tax? He will pay the tax and views it as the price to win. Lots of owners view it as some kind of "cap" that they won't cross. What is not to love about the guy? Sure, he can be over-meddling, but is a GREAT owner, and Maverick fans do not realize how great they have it with him. He would be sorely missed if he ever sold the team. With him at the helm, the Mavs will always be in the hunt, because he is willing to pay the tax and take on a loss to field a great team. Most owners aren't.

Well... I wish our esteemed owner would make Nellie get off his fat ass and do some frickin' recruiting during the offseason. It's his frickin' job. And if he can't do that. Then fire his ass.

Hitman · 07-23-2003, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: foglemann
I agree to some degree Hitman, but the biggest problem with your post is that the other teams did improve. Just because we didn't do anything doesn't make it better. Because we didn't get what we wanted, doesn't make it the plan that should have been played the whole time. When other teams improve, you get left behind. We all know this has and will keep happening. Especially with us, if we don't do anything, we will have regressed and hurt our chances to compete with the better teams.

The Lakers improved, but the upcoming season is the least of their worries now. They are going to be a team under serious distress this year. Are they better than us on papeer? Yes. But Shaq is aging and has a bad toe, Malone is 40, Payton is 35 and Kobe is facing 4 to life. They have problems.

The Kings are not improved. Webber and Vlade are just a year older.

The Spurs are not improved. Give me a gimpy Admiral over Rasho Nesterovic.

The Wolves are improved on paper, but they added two old perimter guys who happen to play the same position as their Wally and Troy. Not to mention, Sprewell is a cancer. He is 33 years old and he shot barely 40% for the Knicks. You think he is going to be happy deferring to Wally? Nope. He has declined steadily in the past few years. He is not explosive anymore. Olokowandi? I don't think he is an upgrade over Rasho. I think they are both very mediocre centers, and neither one of them has anything on Raef.

We can improve from within. We still have the best chemistry, we still have the best offense. None of our main guys is facing any imminent downside. In fact, there is room for development among some.

I am not putting on rose-colored glassess or sticking my head in the sand. I am looking at this realistically. Championships are not won in July, contrary to belief around here. Just because we missed out on some opportunites to add 40 year olds and we couldn't give a 4 year contract to a guy with a serious kidney problem, does not mean that we are screwed. Our best player is 25, our point is 29 and our two is 30. Our sixth man and big time scorer (not to mention enticing trade bait) is 31. Our center is 27. These guys are all young and have a lot of great basketball left. I feel more comfortable sitting tight with this team than I would with the Kings, who have a very injury prone team and whose window is closer to being shut. Nowitzki is on the upswing while Webber is on the downswing. That alone puts us in better position tham them.

If this team stays put I still think we will win 60+ games, and I think last season's playoff run will give us a lot of confidence in the postseason.

Dooby · 07-23-2003, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Lets examine the situation:

1. The Lakers: Shaq is a year older, which is a bad thing for a 350 pound 32 year old with bad feet and toes and a history of weight problems. They added 40 year old Karl Malone, who if the history of 40 year old NBA athletes holds to form (History Lesson -- "History ALWAYS repeats itself), then he should be hitting a serious plateu this year, especially with a team that has an "X" marked on it. Plus, he needs 14 ppg over the next 2 years to get the scoring record. Does anyone seriously think that is not going to be a problem? They added a 35 year old shoot first point who happens to be facing serious assault charges. Whoopee. He will also have problems adapting to ZenMaster's overrated "Triangle Offense."
Oh, and their superstar two guard is facing 4 to life in prison for rape. Make no mistake, this team looks good on paper, but....they could have some vulnerability, don't you think?

2. The Kings: Webber is a year older and injury prone. Vlade is gaining on 40. Bibby has been exposed as extremely overated. Peja is great and the depth is still good, but the gap will be very narrowed between us and this team next year for obvious reasons.

3. The Spurs: They beat us in the WCFs. Duncan is awesome. Other than that, they have guys that are great role players. Parker, Ginobolli. I say they take a minor upgrade with Nesterovic. Their spiritual leader, the Admiral, is gone.

4. The Wolves: KG has some help. Who?

Sam Cassell: Yawn. He bring the same shoot first mentaility that Troy Hudson brough, only he is 7 years older. He will sit on the bench in the playoffs.

Latrell Sprewell: Ummm...has anyone noticed how far this guy has fallen? First of all, he is a team CANCER. Second of all, he barely shoots 40%. BARELY. Third of all, he is now going to be the fourth or fifth option on this team, and his going to be playing small forward. (Wally needs to play the 2). Latrell is going downhill fast and is not going to be a difference maker in the West.

Michael Olokowandi - Yes, the reincarnation of Joe Barely Cares. He has a long term deal, and this will be the last we hear from this chump. I will take Raef and Shawn over this guy.

I barely made it to this point, and admit I quit reading before I read about how great the Mavs are. I know that part.

As I have said earlier, anybody who says that the Lakers and the T-wolves are not better are either: (i) dumb; or (ii) kidding themselves. Sorry to be so harsh but that is how I feel. You don't add quality players without giving up anything without improving save the proverbial "chemistry" issues. Frankly, people hanging their hats that the Lakers will implode are, well, see above. The truth is that they are correct. At some point in the season, Malone and Payton will bitch about shots, the offense, etc. Yeah, they'll probably take a surprising loss to the Hawks. And then you can pat yourself on the back and say "I told you so."--In FEBRUARY!!! And then the playoffs will start and Malone will shut up; Payton will fall in line. And if you think these guys are going to jail anytime soon, if at all....well, see above again.

As for the Wolves. Gosh, I hope you are right. Sprewell is getting older. I personally think Kandi is an upgrade. And I think a vet PG is better than Hudson. But considering the Wolves last year were KG as option nos. 1, 2 and 3 and Wally doing whatever else, and now KG has help, and thats what they are brought in to do-help, this team is better.

AnMan21 · 07-23-2003, 10:05 AM

I don't think anyone will totally deny the fact the the Lakers and Wolves have gotten better. However...How can you say they've gotten so much better that they surpass the Mavs, or Kings, or whoever? We haven't even seen them all play together. That's the point! The Wolves have upgraded, no doubt, but until they scored Spree not many people were saying much. Now they land an aging, headcase who hasn't been productive since Golden State (where he was the most amazingly raw-talented player I'd seen in a long time) and everyone's ready to conceed to them. Be a fan or don't. But quit whinning about the Mavs and how everyone is passing them by, because we can't say anything for sure until the season starts.

Hitman · 07-23-2003, 10:28 AM

Originally posted by: Dooby
[/quote]

Quote:

I barely made it to this point, and admit I quit reading before I read about how great the Mavs are. I know that part.

Maybe you should read that part because that is kind of the whole point. A lot of people don't realize the advantages we have over other teams such as youth, chemistry, natural progression and an owner who is willing to do whatever it takes. These things are much more subtle than signing aging hall of famers.

Quote:

As I have said earlier, anybody who says that the Lakers and the T-wolves are not better are either: (i) dumb; or (ii) kidding themselves. Sorry to be so harsh but that is how I feel. You don't add quality players without giving up anything without improving save the proverbial "chemistry" issues. Frankly, people hanging their hats that the Lakers will implode are, well, see above. The truth is that they are correct. At some point in the season, Malone and Payton will bitch about shots, the offense, etc. Yeah, they'll probably take a surprising loss to the Hawks. And then you can pat yourself on the back and say "I told you so."--In FEBRUARY!!! And then the playoffs will start and Malone will shut up; Payton will fall in line. And if you think these guys are going to jail anytime soon, if at all....well, see above again.

Here is the problem with the Lakers -- In the basketball world, they are OLD and FRAGILE. Are they improved on paper? You betcha. They are improved as long as Malone can do what no other 40 year old has done, Shaq's toe, which he has repeatedly said will never get better until he retires, gets better and Payton can continue to push on at the age of 35. And if you think that Kobe's situation will have no adverse effect on the team, I would beg to differ.

The 97 Rockets had a 34 year old Hakeem posting up, a 34 year old Drexler slashing and shooting on the perimter, a 34 year old Charles Barkley putting up 20 and 13, a 35 year old Kevin Willis banging down low and a 34 year old Mario Elie playing great D and shoring up the perimeter.

Did team win it all? How could they not with that lineup!!

But alas...

They did not. Why? Because they were old, and they had injury problems and chemistry problems.

Adding Hall of Famers to your team does not guarantee success. The Barkley of 97 was better and younger than either Payton or Malone.

Payton and Malone are OLD in basketball terms. Shaq is approaching OLD, and he has a bad toe that has consistenly flared up in the past couple of years. Kobe....well, he has other things on his mind right now.

So yeah, it all looks pretty scary on paper, but IMO, the reality is less scary than the perception.

Jeremiah · 07-23-2003, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Hitman
When I first joined this forum, I started a thread entitled "Mavericks Fans, Wake Up!"

I thought now would be the right time to unveil the sequel to that thread.

Where are we now? Well, we won 60 games last year. We would/ could have won more, if Finley didn't get injured at the end of the season. If Dirk didn't miss that regular season game against the Spurs. If we didn't blow that lead to the Lakers. Yada, yada, yada. We could/ should have beat the Spurs in the playoffs, if Dirk hadn't got hurt, if we didn't blow that lead in the 4th quarter. If only we had some luck.

We didn't have that luck.

Either way, it was a fun ride.

People are crying! The sky is falling!!

We had plenty of luck, most of it at the right time. Our good luck ran out in the 4th quarter of game 6.

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If we only got Zo. (If we only got a guy who hadn't played in a year, whose kidney could give out at any second and who admittedly is only a 25 mpg guy. WTF? That is supposed to be the difference? What are the odds of Zo putting up 12 and 6 for the Nets this year? Not good.)

I think there's a good chance he makes at least those averages next year. What's a good chance? 75% Why do I say that? Because I'm assuming that the same doctors that said he was good to go two years ago, are the ones that are saying that now, and he did pretty well that season. Because he is going to a new team, and should have something to prove. After his first year, he might not play again, but this next season, I think he has a good chance of making at least those averages. What do you base your idea on?

by the way, as I think Zo would have played next year, he would have been a tremendous difference to this team. He'd score inside, he'd defend in the post, and he'd score when no one else could.

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If we only got Malone. (Yes, a 40 year old power forward who lacks the quickness to guard the power forwards of the new millenium, whose rebounding skills are diminishing quickly, but wants to shoot enough to break the all time scoring record! Just what we need!)

Well, he still got 7-8 rebounds per game last year, didn't he? Malone coming here would have, in the very least done this for this team: got to the free throw line plenty of times, and scored
brought an intimidating presence
brought leadership
shown the mavs the difference between working hard, and karl malone working hard (which, I assume, is harder than the mavs work)

With some speculation, he would have also:
taken over a game or two when needed
lent some of his playoff experience in the times when the Mavs would crumble (he might not have ever shown up at crunch time, but he has been in plenty games with those who have, and should be able to teach that by explanation.)
strengthened the mavs' post offense and defense.

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If we only got PJ or Olokowandi or Rasho. I got news for you folks: PJ, Olo and Rasho are not likely to be difference makers in the NBA finals.

Well, I'm not a Rasho fan, so I'll refrain additional comment about him. PJ would have been a difference-maker by his sheer presence on the floor. There's not many a mav that boxes out, PJ does. The Mavs instantly rebound better all around. If you think rebounding can't make a difference, just re-visit the two games Sacramento beat the Mavs by last second Keon Clark put backs.
Olowokandi? He's a gamble, but a very cheap gamble. I predict that he does well in Minny this year because he'll be next to a great PF (not that he wasn't next to a great PF in the making), he'll be in an organization that wants to win with a strong personality that will want him to win, and he'll feel comfortable unlike he felt in LA. I think he would have made a difference in Dallas as well because he's what we don't have: a starting center. Sure, Bradley is a center, but he isn't a starter. I'd put dirk there without a problem because I think his defensive liability is greatly reduced there, but he isn't going there, even if there was a bruising pf next to him to help protect him from injury. Michael brings additional rebounding and a nice hook shot. He doesn't shoot very well for his position, especially given that all his shots are taken from close in. However, that is also a boon to the Mavs as there isn't a soul on the team that takes all of their shots from close in. He'd be able to score in the post when the offense stymied, and Nelly wouldn't be anxious to put him on the perimeter. That'd be a very good thing for the Mavs.

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If we only, if we only, if we only. It all is getting old. Maybe we didn't need to make any moves. Maybe we get ahead by staying put. Is that possible?

Yes, I think that is very possible. I believe in continuity. I believe that any player worth his salt would take last year's trip to the WCF as an injection of confidence, thereby making it easier to get there in the next year. (I've said this before, and then a direct reply had a Kevin Bacon photo in it. I know it meant something, I just don't know what.) For the most part, I believe it's more important to worry about one's own abilities than the other guy's game. However, I also recognize that we had flaws last year, and that a change here and there (Artest instead of Fin, Miller instead of Raef or maybe Olowokandi instead of Raef) would make us look a whole lot better on paper. Would we be better? Well, that's why we play the games, to find out. But I think we would.

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Lets examine the situation:

1. The Lakers: Shaq is a year older, which is a bad thing for a 350 pound 32 year old with bad feet and toes and a history of weight problems. They added 40 year old Karl Malone, who if the history of 40 year old NBA athletes holds to form (History Lesson -- "History ALWAYS repeats itself), then he should be hitting a serious plateu this year, especially with a team that has an "X" marked on it. Plus, he needs 14 ppg over the next 2 years to get the scoring record. Does anyone seriously think that is not going to be a problem? They added a 35 year old shoot first point who happens to be facing serious assault charges. Whoopee. He will also have problems adapting to ZenMaster's overrated "Triangle Offense."
Oh, and their superstar two guard is facing 4 to life in prison for rape. Make no mistake, this team looks good on paper, but....they could have some vulnerability, don't you think?

I think that this team has incredible questions that must be answered. Will Kobe play next year? Will the egos of the 4 principles get in the way of winning? Will Shaq be healthy and motivated next year? Will Phil scrap the triangle for a year in order to let his guys just play? Will Karl adjust well to leaving 18 years of comfort? Will the expectations be so great that they crumble underneath said expectations?

I also think the Lakers can answer all those questions to their benefit. But sure, I think they are vulnerable, just not as much as you do.

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2. The Kings: Webber is a year older and injury prone. Vlade is gaining on 40. Bibby has been exposed as extremely overated. Peja is great and the depth is still good, but the gap will be very narrowed between us and this team next year for obvious reasons.

I never did think that the Kings were a better team than the Mavs, and I still don't. I do agree with your statements on Webber and Vlade, and would add that Webber is prone to choking, but also prone to making good on his published desires against the Mavs, and that Vlade, while old and a virtual chimney, still plays Shaq darn tough, and usually rips the Mavs. I wouldn't call Bibby extremely overrated though, just that he missed his peak this time around. I need to see more years out of him to make the "extremely overrated" judgment. I think we're even if not better than the Kings, that's just my personal opinion, however I have a suspicion that my reasons are not the obvious reasons, inwhich case the obvious reasons are not obvious to me. Care to expound?

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3. The Spurs: They beat us in the WCFs. Duncan is awesome. Other than that, they have guys that are great role players. Parker, Ginobolli. I say they take a minor upgrade with Nesterovic. Their spiritual leader, the Admiral, is gone.

But they are still good. They still beat us. They will probably beat us next year as well, though, I think we can and should beat them, but given the Mavs' level of mental toughness, the odds are not good in my eyes.

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4. The Wolves: KG has some help. Who?

Sam Cassell: Yawn. He bring the same shoot first mentaility that Troy Hudson brough, only he is 7 years older. He will sit on the bench in the playoffs.

Latrell Sprewell: Ummm...has anyone noticed how far this guy has fallen? First of all, he is a team CANCER. Second of all, he barely shoots 40%. BARELY. Third of all, he is now going to be the fourth or fifth option on this team, and his going to be playing small forward. (Wally needs to play the 2). Latrell is going downhill fast and is not going to be a difference maker in the West.

Michael Olokowandi - Yes, the reincarnation of Joe Barely Cares. He has a long term deal, and this will be the last we hear from this chump. I will take Raef and Shawn over this guy.

I strongly disagree that Sam will sit on the bench in the playoffs. The guy is a gamer, and has been since he came into the league. His personality will complement KG's as he wants to win, and has proven that he has the stuff of a winner. Perhaps that was on the coattails of Hakeem, but I remember him coming up big then. He's not great, but to think that he's not an improvement over Troy Hudson and the rotation of wannabe pgs on the TWolves, is to mistaken.

Again, I don't buy the team cancer thing either. He's a winner, a bit over the edge, but a winner. And he certainly is an improvement over Peeler, put him with a pg that will get him the ball, and a big guy that will demand double teams, and he'll be very good. I don't agree that he will play small forward, as he is a two, and Wally is better at the 3 in the wolves' system. It's all over the Minny papers, and when you watch Wally play, you'll see it. Besides, they are both going to play the swing positions, Wally is going to get his shots set up for him and then nail them, Latrell will score off jumpers and drives, and as far as defense goes, Flip will have each guarding the right guy. Where does the position that either play when they are on the court really matter? Either position, they will be doing the same things. And I think he'll be a difference maker on the Wolves. He's a good player, good players are difference makers on teams that lacked good players.

Olowokandi has a 3 year deal worth ~5 million per. If you call that a long term deal, well, that's a matter of framing. I would take him over Raef, no question, he's cheaper, he doesn't have self esteem issues, he has a hook shot that he uses, and he rebounds better than Raef. I'd also take him over Bradley. Bradley is good at what he does, I suppose, but I soured on him two years ago.

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Of course, we are left with the Mavericks. That fun, run and gun team from Eastern Texas. What do they have? Lets see.

1. Dirk - The guy is the best player in the league waiting to happen. The ABSOLUTE Best thing that could happen to him personally is that the other Mavs decline a bit offensively, because then he will feel less guilty about the Big 3 (or Big 4) becoming the "Big 1." Which is EXACTLY what it needs to become. 30 ppgs and 11 boards is a strong possibility, and if that happens then we are in super shape.

I suppose I agree with most of this. I don't share the same amount of optimism, but I don't find much wrong with it.

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2. Nash - Two time all NBA point is one of the last pure points left. When he is covered tight he gets all involved, when you play an inch off he can devestate you from the perimeter. He is 30, in great shape and in the hands of a personal trainer. He has not showed any signs of decline and should continue at this great level for three to five more years.

I think he is a great pg. When he is covered tightly though, the Mavs suffer. The kings and the lakers are great at stifling Nash on individual possessions with double teams. Sure, that leaves an open man, but the double teams are better than Nash, and prevent him from making a good pass. the best that happens is a bail out pass, the worst, a turnover. bibby does a pretty good job on Nash singly too, and when Peja gets on him, Nash can't score very well. Nash is good, darn good, but he could be better. he probably won't be, and I can live with that, because he is darn good, but if there was something I'd want him to improve upon it would be to avoid being double teamed and keep the offense running smoothly on individual possessions. But I do agree that he should be just as good as he is for the next 3 seasons.

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3. Fin - Solid is the best word to describe. He has the athletic ability to take a nod from the likes of Joe Dumars and become a world class defensive 2. If he can get over the notion of "I still consider myself a big time scorer" (Fin - you are not ever going to be a "Big Time" scorer on a contender) and apply his physical gifts to the defensive end while still putting up 15-18 ppg, then he is worth his salary the next 4 years.

I'd agree that he could be great defensively. I also think just about any good NBA player can be great defensively. Defense seems to be about will. I don't know for sure, but that is what it seems to be about to me. I do think Fin is a 20ppg scorer on a contender, he has been the past two years. I also think he can take over a game on a contender, as he has done on occasion in the last two years. Whether that is a big time scorer in your eyes or not is a different question. He's worth his salary right now. I don't think he's what we need, but there are plenty of teams that he would be just as great, if not greater on, and be appreciated with that salary. I'll list which teams I think those are, and why:

First though, I think Fin is a darn good jumpshooter. His pct is not phenomenal, but he hits shots. He's also good rebounding from the 2 spot, and at passing the ball. Which teams need guys like that?

NJ. Put fin in there in place of Kittles, or Jefferson, and Jersey is much, much better. Now kidd doesn't shoot as much as is not as much of a liablility. now, when they are not on the fast break, there is a darn good shooter to kick it out to. Now, when a guy is triple teamed, and has not much hope of passing, if that guy is Fin, there is at least some evidence that his shot will go in. Jersey needs a shooter like fin more than they need a big guy like Zo.

Philly: Nearly the same scenario. He'll be the one AI passes to on the run, open as can be, nailing 2s and 3s. He'll take the shots KVH is afraid to take. Plus, he's respected enough that AI will pass him the ball. I'd agree that AI had problems with that before with his running mates, but I submit he's changed, and his running mates weren't exactly shooters: Jerry Stackhouse and Larry what'sHisName, heck they still aren't.

Boston: This is a little different. They could use a front court player in the worst way, but with Fin at the two and PP at the three, with PP taking the toughest scorer, Fin is the 2nd, or 3rd scorer. He'd be more than welcome in Beantown, even with his salary. Heck, if we offered him up for Antoine, Ainge, I suspect would do it yesterday.

Lakers: They need a 3rd scorer, they also need that 3rd scorer to be able to handle not having the spotlight, and be able to nail jumpers. Is that not fin?

Spurs: they need anyone that can be counted on to consistently hit jumpers from Tim. They too could use fin more than they could use Rasho.

I'll stop there. That's what I think of Fin. With that said, if it took him to get someone that can defend like Artest, and is as young as Artest, I'd do it. I'd be sad to see him go, but not too sad, because Indiana is another place where he could be just as good, and have just as good a shot at the Finals.

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4. Bradley and Raef - We have a 7'6" guy who is such a force on the interior defense that he is coveted by the whole league and a guy in Raef who can put up 13 and 9 with a little confidence. How about our coach gives him a little? Are these guys perfect? No way. But I take this duo over Minny's centers or SA's Centers. And with a little luck, Sac's centers.

I don't think Bradley is coveted by the entire league. If he was, I don't think he'd be a Maverick as of a week ago. I still take Michael and Mark over these guys, Rasho, again, I'm not convinced with him. and I'd also take Sac's centers over these guys. I also agree that Nelly ought to inject Raef with some confidence. Raef with confidence is good on this team. I fault Don for not figuring out how to coach Raef to get the most out of him. This angers me to no end.

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5. Nick the Quick - The Wildcard. He showed that he can still be an All Star point, and some team is going to want him for the stretch run. We would be wise to hang on the Nicky until the best possible offer comes around, and that could take us into 2004. But he is a valubale commodity, and he will help us win a bunch of games up until the time that we trade him. But we should trade him for defensive/ rebounding / interior help before the trading deadline. But it is great that we have something VERY valuable to trade, isn't it?

You've also said he's not all star caliber, which is it? I like Nick, and I think he plays well with this team. I also wouldn't mind sending him away for depth. I judge trades not necessarily on who the one trade brings back, but how it helps the team overall. For instance, if there was a way I could get Shane Battier and Carlos Boozer, along with a 1st rounder for Nick, I'd do it right away. Sure, those two are not as good as Nick, nor would the salaries work, but put them on the Mavs and the Mavs are a better team I think. I can't prove it, but I think that.

Yes, it is a very good thing that we have a player that we can trade and can expect to receive a player or players that should improve our team.

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6. Reserves; probably - Raja, Walt, Howard, and hopefully Oggy and Daniels. I will go to war with them.

I like Raja, Howard, and Daniels I don't know, though I've only heard great things. And oggy, well, I have to either see him first, or hear an opinion other than Chad Ford and the Mavs brass on him. Tell me what any other ESPN journalist says, or any other scout that has watched him play says, or hell, any other player in the summer league. I don't trust Ford's evaluation, for better or worse.

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7. Cuban - The scapegoat. Everybody loves to rip on him. Do people realize that teams like the Pacers and the Sixers have based their ENTIRE offseason on AVOIDING the luxury tax? And do you realize that Cuban mocks the luxury tax? He will pay the tax and views it as the price to win. Lots of owners view it as some kind of "cap" that they won't cross. What is not to love about the guy? Sure, he can be over-meddling, but is a GREAT owner, and Maverick fans do not realize how great they have it with him. He would be sorely missed if he ever sold the team. With him at the helm, the Mavs will always be in the hunt, because he is willing to pay the tax and take on a loss to field a great team. Most owners aren't.

I like Mark. I'm glad he's the owner. No problems here.

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We have problems, but there are no guarantees for anyone. The Lakers, Spurs, Kings and Wolves all have problems. We still have youth on our side, and we can still win 60+ games this year. We have an expendable and desirable piece in Nick, who could bring us something big in return by February...even if it doesn't by October 30th. Our defense was way improved last year and could be even more improved this year, as guys improve their individual defense, and we as a team continue to improve our team D. We have an improving MVP candidate. two guys who are contenders for All NBA team and a sixth man of the year candidate who could bring back something very big -- but it might not be for another six months.

Bottom line is this:

Reports of the Mavericks demise has been greatly exxagerated.

Hitman

I'd agree with that assessment.

Jeremiah · 07-23-2003, 10:55 AM

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As I have said earlier, anybody who says that the Lakers and the T-wolves are not better are either: (i) dumb; or (ii) kidding themselves. Sorry to be so harsh but that is how I feel. You don't add quality players without giving up anything without improving save the proverbial "chemistry" issues. Frankly, people hanging their hats that the Lakers will implode are, well, see above. The truth is that they are correct. At some point in the season, Malone and Payton will bitch about shots, the offense, etc. Yeah, they'll probably take a surprising loss to the Hawks. And then you can pat yourself on the back and say "I told you so."--In FEBRUARY!!! And then the playoffs will start and Malone will shut up; Payton will fall in line. And if you think these guys are going to jail anytime soon, if at all....well, see above again.

I'd agree with that. I don't know if it makes them better than the Mavs, but they have certainly improved.

superheadcat · 07-23-2003, 12:37 PM

this is what fans do: some see the glass half empty, some see it half full, and most of time, both are reasonable.

i guess i belong to the half full fans, and i absolutely have no problem with those half empty fans. however, i do have problem with those who dismiss half full fans as Ostriches.

mavs had been used to beating the odds of half empty. remember last season? how many half empty fans expect an early exit from 2nd round by mavs? now they are predicting "this mavs team won't win a championship". probably they are right. but i won't be surprised that mavs beat the odds again. but then, i remembered a post last season that said, "at that time, they will say 'history shows mavs cannot win back to back championships'"

with that all said, i am waiting for mavs management to explain:
1. what is their plan to address the identified weaknesses of mavs, now that they keep quiet so far?
2. what are their realistic strategies to keep mavs competitive, now that several opponents improved, at least on paper?
3. what is the deal with nellie hanging over in maui during fa signing? is he retiring, resigning, or being fired?

Dooby · 07-23-2003, 02:23 PM

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this is what fans do: some see the glass half empty, some see it half full, and most of time, both are reasonable.

My two passions are SMU Football and Mavs basketball. Funny how on this board people think I am doom and gloom, and on the SMU boards, people think I am a homer because I have the audacity to suggest SMU will win 4 games next year(which is far below the real homers who are predicting 7 wins, BTW).

I always fancy myself as an overanalytical realist. You show me a half-full or half empty glass, and I'll whip out a scale, measuring cup and an Magnetic Resonance Imaging machine to determine whether it is really more full or more empty ("more empty" doesn't make any sense, I know).

FilthyFinMavs · 07-23-2003, 02:42 PM

I'm just going to make it short and simple. How can you not think that the Lakers and T-Wolves have not improved but think the Mavs have when they can't even resign there own free agents? I mean that has homerism all over it.

madape · 07-24-2003, 08:49 AM

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Originally posted by: Hitman
When I first joined this forum, I started a thread entitled "Mavericks Fans, Wake Up!"

I thought now would be the right time to unveil the sequel to that thread.

Where are we now? Well, we won 60 games last year. We would/ could have won more, if Finley didn't get injured at the end of the season. If Dirk didn't miss that regular season game against the Spurs. If we didn't blow that lead to the Lakers. Yada, yada, yada. We could/ should have beat the Spurs in the playoffs, if Dirk hadn't got hurt, if we didn't blow that lead in the 4th quarter. If only we had some luck.

We didn't have that luck.

Either way, it was a fun ride.

People are crying! The sky is falling!!

If we only got Zo. (If we only got a guy who hadn't played in a year, whose kidney could give out at any second and who admittedly is only a 25 mpg guy. WTF? That is supposed to be the difference? What are the odds of Zo putting up 12 and 6 for the Nets this year? Not good.)

If we only got Malone. (Yes, a 40 year old power forward who lacks the quickness to guard the power forwards of the new millenium, whose rebounding skills are diminishing quickly, but wants to shoot enough to break the all time scoring record! Just what we need!)

If we only got PJ or Olokowandi or Rasho. I got news for you folks: PJ, Olo and Rasho are not likely to be difference makers in the NBA finals.

If we only, if we only, if we only. It all is getting old. Maybe we didn't need to make any moves. Maybe we get ahead by staying put. Is that possible?

Lets examine the situation:

1. The Lakers: Shaq is a year older, which is a bad thing for a 350 pound 32 year old with bad feet and toes and a history of weight problems. They added 40 year old Karl Malone, who if the history of 40 year old NBA athletes holds to form (History Lesson -- "History ALWAYS repeats itself), then he should be hitting a serious plateu this year, especially with a team that has an "X" marked on it. Plus, he needs 14 ppg over the next 2 years to get the scoring record. Does anyone seriously think that is not going to be a problem? They added a 35 year old shoot first point who happens to be facing serious assault charges. Whoopee. He will also have problems adapting to ZenMaster's overrated "Triangle Offense."
Oh, and their superstar two guard is facing 4 to life in prison for rape. Make no mistake, this team looks good on paper, but....they could have some vulnerability, don't you think?

2. The Kings: Webber is a year older and injury prone. Vlade is gaining on 40. Bibby has been exposed as extremely overated. Peja is great and the depth is still good, but the gap will be very narrowed between us and this team next year for obvious reasons.

3. The Spurs: They beat us in the WCFs. Duncan is awesome. Other than that, they have guys that are great role players. Parker, Ginobolli. I say they take a minor upgrade with Nesterovic. Their spiritual leader, the Admiral, is gone.

4. The Wolves: KG has some help. Who?

Sam Cassell: Yawn. He bring the same shoot first mentaility that Troy Hudson brough, only he is 7 years older. He will sit on the bench in the playoffs.

Latrell Sprewell: Ummm...has anyone noticed how far this guy has fallen? First of all, he is a team CANCER. Second of all, he barely shoots 40%. BARELY. Third of all, he is now going to be the fourth or fifth option on this team, and his going to be playing small forward. (Wally needs to play the 2). Latrell is going downhill fast and is not going to be a difference maker in the West.

Michael Olokowandi - Yes, the reincarnation of Joe Barely Cares. He has a long term deal, and this will be the last we hear from this chump. I will take Raef and Shawn over this guy.

Of course, we are left with the Mavericks. That fun, run and gun team from Eastern Texas. What do they have? Lets see.

1. Dirk - The guy is the best player in the league waiting to happen. The ABSOLUTE Best thing that could happen to him personally is that the other Mavs decline a bit offensively, because then he will feel less guilty about the Big 3 (or Big 4) becoming the "Big 1." Which is EXACTLY what it needs to become. 30 ppgs and 11 boards is a strong possibility, and if that happens then we are in super shape.
2. Nash - Two time all NBA point is one of the last pure points left. When he is covered tight he gets all involved, when you play an inch off he can devestate you from the perimeter. He is 30, in great shape and in the hands of a personal trainer. He has not showed any signs of decline and should continue at this great level for three to five more years.
3. Fin - Solid is the best word to describe. He has the athletic ability to take a nod from the likes of Joe Dumars and become a world class defensive 2. If he can get over the notion of "I still consider myself a big time scorer" (Fin - you are not ever going to be a "Big Time" scorer on a contender) and apply his physical gifts to the defensive end while still putting up 15-18 ppg, then he is worth his salary the next 4 years.
4. Bradley and Raef - We have a 7'6" guy who is such a force on the interior defense that he is coveted by the whole league and a guy in Raef who can put up 13 and 9 with a little confidence. How about our coach gives him a little? Are these guys perfect? No way. But I take this duo over Minny's centers or SA's Centers. And with a little luck, Sac's centers.
5. Nick the Quick - The Wildcard. He showed that he can still be an All Star point, and some team is going to want him for the stretch run. We would be wise to hang on the Nicky until the best possible offer comes around, and that could take us into 2004. But he is a valubale commodity, and he will help us win a bunch of games up until the time that we trade him. But we should trade him for defensive/ rebounding / interior help before the trading deadline. But it is great that we have something VERY valuable to trade, isn't it?
6. Reserves; probably - Raja, Walt, Howard, and hopefully Oggy and Daniels. I will go to war with them.
7. Cuban - The scapegoat. Everybody loves to rip on him. Do people realize that teams like the Pacers and the Sixers have based their ENTIRE offseason on AVOIDING the luxury tax? And do you realize that Cuban mocks the luxury tax? He will pay the tax and views it as the price to win. Lots of owners view it as some kind of "cap" that they won't cross. What is not to love about the guy? Sure, he can be over-meddling, but is a GREAT owner, and Maverick fans do not realize how great they have it with him. He would be sorely missed if he ever sold the team. With him at the helm, the Mavs will always be in the hunt, because he is willing to pay the tax and take on a loss to field a great team. Most owners aren't.

We have problems, but there are no guarantees for anyone. The Lakers, Spurs, Kings and Wolves all have problems. We still have youth on our side, and we can still win 60+ games this year. We have an expendable and desirable piece in Nick, who could bring us something big in return by February...even if it doesn't by October 30th. Our defense was way improved last year and could be even more improved this year, as guys improve their individual defense, and we as a team continue to improve our team D. We have an improving MVP candidate. two guys who are contenders for All NBA team and a sixth man of the year candidate who could bring back something very big -- but it might not be for another six months.

Bottom line is this:

Reports of the Mavericks demise has been greatly exxagerated.

Hitman

Hitman, wasn't it you who posted that moronic trade idea about Nick Van Exel for Kittles and Jason Collins? If Mourning, Malone, Rasho, Kandi, and Miller are non-difference makers... THEN WHAT THE HELL IS JASON COLLINS?!!? Sorry, I just can't let that trade go.

jayC · 07-24-2003, 09:08 AM

I agree but kandiman or Brown would have been nice fits here. Its just discouraging to see sacramento get brad miller, San Antonio grab nesterovic, hedo, and ron mercer, etc.

I think bigger trades are on the horizon at the deadline and next year. Apparently the price was too high for the mavericks in adding brad miller. You are right that superstars when titles in the nba and Dirk is one of them.

Hitman · 07-24-2003, 09:13 AM

Madape, sorry you are still pissed about that trade, but it would be great if you shared some of your ideas instead of complaining all the time. Your avatar goes so well with your angry posts! Good job picking it out!

Kittles would have given us an excellent perimter defender with long arms and someone who is great on the fast break and can hit the outside shot. Collins would have given us a young and athletic 7 footer who can rebound and defend and has been to two NBA finals in his two years in the league.

As far as this thread goes, it may be a moot point. Sac just got an All Star Center who fits perfectly in their system.

Maybe we are screwed now.

Blonde Bomber · 07-24-2003, 09:28 AM

Yes Hitman, everything is moot..

With Sac adding Miller for scraps and SA adding Hedo for scraps it looks like the big guns just got bigger.
The Mavs just got left behind and possibly lapped by the other upper tier teams in the West.

wheres the new and improved primal scream thread?