How about this trade with Boston

[Simon2]

Dallas trades: SF Jerry Stackhouse (13.9 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 4.0 apg in 29.8 minutes)
PF Christian Laettner (5.9 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 1.9 apg in 20.5 minutes)
PF Tariq Abdul-Wahad (5.9 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 1.9 apg in 20.5 minutes)
SF Josh Howard (8.6 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 1.5 apg in 23.7 minutes)
Dallas receives: SG Paul Pierce (22.9 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 5.1 apg in 38.7 minutes)
C Raef LaFrentz (7.8 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 1.4 apg in 19.3 minutes)
Change in team outlook: +2.3 ppg, -2.7 rpg, and -0.9 apg.

Boston trades: SG Paul Pierce (22.9 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 5.1 apg in 38.7 minutes)
C Raef LaFrentz (7.8 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 1.4 apg in 19.3 minutes)
Boston receives: SF Jerry Stackhouse (13.9 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 4.0 apg in 26 games)
PF Christian Laettner (5.9 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 1.9 apg in 48 games)
PF Tariq Abdul-Wahad (5.9 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 1.9 apg in 48 games)
SF Josh Howard (8.6 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 1.5 apg in 67 games)
Change in team outlook: -2.3 ppg, +2.7 rpg, and +0.9 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

Finley or Pierce get to play SF. Having Dirk and Pierce on the same team would be a scary offensive threat. Getting Raef back would mean getting some of the players back that helped get the Mavs to the WCF. Raef can start at C again and you know Dirk would like that. The front court will be Pierce, Dirk and Raef. The bad part are the contracts which extends to 2008 and beyond for Raef. Pierce's attitude might be questionable too. Getting rid of TAW is a good thing. Also, getting rid of Josh might not sit well with Mavs fans. Pierce was once compared to Dirk.

Boston gets Stackhouse and Josh Howard. Pretty good players. The rid themselves of the long contract of Pierce and Raef. TAW might actually be usable for them.

Starting lineup will be Terry, Fin, Pierce, Dirk and Raef.

[jayC]

Again are there enough balls to go around. I would pull the trigger but why would Boston.

[fin4life]

I dont see why boston would do this. I think ainge is serius about not trading pierce... but if he did it would be a better deal.

[mavsman221]

why don't we think of things we really need instead of more scoring. for example some down low defense. who on our team is going to guard someone like kevin garnett tim duncan etc. etc. when we are at a crucial point in the season or the playoffs. with the type of players we have now we can't guard mvp material players. we would give up 20-25 points a game on 40-50 percent shooting to a player like tim duncan or kevin garnett. so when its crunch time who is going to make the clutch defensive play against a player like that in the playoffs. if we get into the second or 3rd round of the playoffs we will likely meet those teams, maybe even in the first round.

[Simon2]

Ok. Name a few players that can guard Shaq, KG or Tim Duncan. Big Ben? Untouchable. Who else do you want? There are simply no players out there. So, I wanted to follow the philosophy of the Mavs the whole time. Out score the opponent. Adding scoring players will make the Mavs like sharks teeth, if one goes out, another as sharp replaces it. No team will be able to keep up with the scoring. Just a scoring punch of Pierce and Dirk is already nuts. Add Terry, Stackhouse and Finley and it becomes a nightmare again.

Originally posted by: mavsman221
why don't we think of things we really need instead of more scoring. for example some down low defense. who on our team is going to guard someone like kevin garnett tim duncan etc. etc. when we are at a crucial point in the season or the playoffs. with the type of players we have now we can't guard mvp material players. we would give up 20-25 points a game on 40-50 percent shooting to a player like tim duncan or kevin garnett. so when its crunch time who is going to make the clutch defensive play against a player like that in the playoffs. if we get into the second or 3rd round of the playoffs we will likely meet those teams, maybe even in the first round.

[mavsman221]

i apologize if i offended you simon didnt mean to make my post sound that way if it did but im jsut saying we need to get someone that can do better than what we have at guarding thos type of players. tayshaun prince did a terriffic job against kobe bryant in the nba finals. it can be done. 2 less points scored could be the difference of winning a championship.

[endtroducing]

um, guarding kobe bryant is a hell of a lot easier than guarding KG or Duncan.

[horns-mavs101]

why are we even considering this trade. this is not a need of ours at all. we have plenty of talented guards we should be trying to get dampier or another decent center

[Simon2]

You didn't offend me by any means. Ok. Who can guard those guys? Name me that person.

Originally posted by: mavsman221
i apologize if i offended you simon didnt mean to make my post sound that way if it did but im jsut saying we need to get someone that can do better than what we have at guarding thos type of players. tayshaun prince did a terriffic job against kobe bryant in the nba finals. it can be done. 2 less points scored could be the difference of winning a championship.

[Simon2]

I was looking for a trade that gets the Mavs a superstar while sending servicable players with more friendly contracts in return. The trade gets you Raef and Raef is a decent center. I don't care how many guards or small forwards you have, if you can get a talent like him, you do it.

Originally posted by: horns-mavs101
why are we even considering this trade. this is not a need of ours at all. we have plenty of talented guards we should be trying to get dampier or another decent center

[poohrichardson]

Originally posted by: endtroducing
um, guarding kobe bryant is a hell of a lot easier than guarding KG or Duncan.

Duncan and Garnett are the only two players in the league that can guard the other.. I think Garnett is a better defender but Duncan is obviously a better fundamental player.

Guarding Kobe is easy.. throw all 5 guys at him and wait for him to force shitty shots while his teammates collect dust down low.

[sike]

Originally posted by: Simon2
Ok. Name a few players that can guard Shaq, KG or Tim Duncan. Big Ben? Untouchable. Who else do you want? There are simply no players out there. So, I wanted to follow the philosophy of the Mavs the whole time. Out score the opponent. Adding scoring players will make the Mavs like sharks teeth, if one goes out, another as sharp replaces it. No team will be able to keep up with the scoring. Just a scoring punch of Pierce and Dirk is already nuts. Add Terry, Stackhouse and Finley and it becomes a nightmare again.

since when is guarding "Big Ben" anyones concern?

[Simon2]

I meant Ben Wallace might be able to guard those guys.

Originally posted by: sike

since when is guarding "Big Ben" anyones concern?

[Simon2]

[LRB]

Originally posted by: mavsman221
why don't we think of things we really need instead of more scoring. for example some down low defense. who on our team is going to guard someone like kevin garnett tim duncan etc. etc. when we are at a crucial point in the season or the playoffs. with the type of players we have now we can't guard mvp material players. we would give up 20-25 points a game on 40-50 percent shooting to a player like tim duncan or kevin garnett. so when its crunch time who is going to make the clutch defensive play against a player like that in the playoffs. if we get into the second or 3rd round of the playoffs we will likely meet those teams, maybe even in the first round.

I'd give KG and TD 20 points on 40% shooting everyday of the week and twice on Sunday. That would be phenomenal if we could consistently hold them that low. And if we can contain everyone else realtively speaking, then I can live with them scoring 25 on 50% shooting.

[LRB]

Originally posted by: Simon2
Dallas trades: SF Jerry Stackhouse (13.9 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 4.0 apg in 29.8 minutes)
PF Christian Laettner (5.9 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 1.9 apg in 20.5 minutes)
PF Tariq Abdul-Wahad (5.9 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 1.9 apg in 20.5 minutes)
SF Josh Howard (8.6 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 1.5 apg in 23.7 minutes)
Dallas receives: SG Paul Pierce (22.9 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 5.1 apg in 38.7 minutes)
C Raef LaFrentz (7.8 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 1.4 apg in 19.3 minutes)
Change in team outlook: +2.3 ppg, -2.7 rpg, and -0.9 apg.

Boston trades: SG Paul Pierce (22.9 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 5.1 apg in 38.7 minutes)
C Raef LaFrentz (7.8 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 1.4 apg in 19.3 minutes)
Boston receives: SF Jerry Stackhouse (13.9 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 4.0 apg in 26 games)
PF Christian Laettner (5.9 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 1.9 apg in 48 games)
PF Tariq Abdul-Wahad (5.9 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 1.9 apg in 48 games)
SF Josh Howard (8.6 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 1.5 apg in 67 games)
Change in team outlook: -2.3 ppg, +2.7 rpg, and +0.9 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

Finley or Pierce get to play SF. Having Dirk and Pierce on the same team would be a scary offensive threat. Getting Raef back would mean getting some of the players back that helped get the Mavs to the WCF. Raef can start at C again and you know Dirk would like that. The front court will be Pierce, Dirk and Raef. The bad part are the contracts which extends to 2008 and beyond for Raef. Pierce's attitude might be questionable too. Getting rid of TAW is a good thing. Also, getting rid of Josh might not sit well with Mavs fans. Pierce was once compared to Dirk.

Boston gets Stackhouse and Josh Howard. Pretty good players. The rid themselves of the long contract of Pierce and Raef. TAW might actually be usable for them.

Starting lineup will be Terry, Fin, Pierce, Dirk and Raef.

Losing howard would hurt us rebounding and defensive wise. Playing Raef over Bradley would hurt even more. Pierce brings lots of offense, but isn't as good a defender or rebounder as Howard IMO. Talent wise we'd come out way ahead. Fit wise, I really don't like it. I probably wouldn't do the trade. But it doesn't matter because no way do I see Boston doing the trade either.

[vinnieponte]

did someone say Raef??? This is a joke right. When are we going to learn about defense? I've had my many fights about not wanting Bradley, but now Raef, please :0

[Simon2]

Losing howard would hurt us rebounding and defensive wise. Playing Raef over Bradley would hurt even more. Pierce brings lots of offense, but isn't as good a defender or rebounder as Howard IMO. Talent wise we'd come out way ahead. Fit wise, I really don't like it. I probably wouldn't do the trade. But it doesn't matter because no way do I see Boston doing the trade either.

Why do you say playing Raef over Bradley would hurt us more? Pierce is an all-star and you would still take Howard over him? I guess Howard is a steal contract wise. I would think really hard about it though if Boston agrees.

[LRB]

Originally posted by: Simon2

Why do you say playing Raef over Bradley would hurt us more? Pierce is an all-star and you would still take Howard over him? I guess Howard is a steal contract wise. I would think really hard about it though if Boston agrees.

Bradley is a better rebounder, better shot blocker, and better defensive presence than Raef. That's why playing Raef over Shawn hurts us. See wining % with Shawn playing more minutes vs. Raef playing more minutes in 2002-2003 for more details.

Pierce is a much better overall player than Howard. That doesn't mean that he's a better rebounder, because Howard is by far the better rebounder. Also doesn't mean that Pierce is the better defender, because he's not IMO. Pierce is a better shooter, a better scorer, better at getting to the line, better at hitting from the line, and a better 3pt shooter. Pierce is also a better passer and IMO better ball handler.

Now we don't really need what Pierce is better at. What we need is what Howard is better at. Howard doesn't take shots away from Dirk. Pierce takes tons of shots away from Dirk. Pierce is a better offensive player than Howard but not than Dirk.

IMO, what we need to win is surround Dirk with a supporting cost that compliments him. IMO Howard is more complimentary to Dirk than Pierce. We already have plenty of scorers. What we need are defenders and rebounders.

[Simon2]

I have to disagree with the Raef argument. I think Raef is better than Bradley. He's better offensively and he's more mobile. Raef does block shots. The knock on him is that he gets into foul trouble often.

In the past, the Mavs have lost because they couldn't make a basket. It wasn't becuase they didn't stop anyone but because they couldn't make a basket. That what I've seen so far. Maybe another threat like Pierce might provide the added punch during scoring droughts.

Anyway, I guess we agree to disagree. You would rather go with a little more defense less offense while I go more offense and less defense. I guess the "outscore you opponent mentality" is ingrained in my thinking already. Damn Nellie.

Originally posted by: LRB

Bradley is a better rebounder, better shot blocker, and better defensive presence than Raef. That's why playing Raef over Shawn hurts us. See wining % with Shawn playing more minutes vs. Raef playing more minutes in 2002-2003 for more details.

Pierce is a much better overall player than Howard. That doesn't mean that he's a better rebounder, because Howard is by far the better rebounder. Also doesn't mean that Pierce is the better defender, because he's not IMO. Pierce is a better shooter, a better scorer, better at getting to the line, better at hitting from the line, and a better 3pt shooter. Pierce is also a better passer and IMO better ball handler.

Now we don't really need what Pierce is better at. What we need is what Howard is better at. Howard doesn't take shots away from Dirk. Pierce takes tons of shots away from Dirk. Pierce is a better offensive player than Howard but not than Dirk.

IMO, what we need to win is surround Dirk with a supporting cost that compliments him. IMO Howard is more complimentary to Dirk than Pierce. We already have plenty of scorers. What we need are defenders and rebounders.

[LRB]

Simon, I never said that Raef couldn't block shots, he's just not as good as Bradley. You're right that Raef is the better offensive player overall, but not by as much as Bradley is a better shotblocker and rebounder. The longest win streak in Mavs history came with Bradley almost exclusively at center. Raef is really a PF playing at center. Bradley is a true center.

If you want to play almost no defense at all and try and outscore the other team, then Raef might be the better fit. However, that has not been shown to bring home championships. With Bradley we can still score a butt load of points and have have one of the most disruptive defenders in the game today at center. The Nellie mindset has to change or Nellie has to go. The days of no defense have to come to an end.

We may have to agree to disagree, but there is no way I see Cubes taking on Raefs bloated contract again along with another max contract in Pierce while losing rebounding and defense. Nellie I could see doing, but not Cubes.

[sike]

this team does not need any players who would think they are the man......we've already seen how that worked with one of the Celtics dynamic duo....pierce is all O and show and little else....the mavs need substance not more scorers...no to Pierce

[fin4life]

Originally posted by: sike
this team does not need any players who would think they are the man......we've already seen how that worked with one of the Celtics dynamic duo....pierce is all O and show and little else....the mavs need substance not more scorers...no to Pierce

Hit the nail right on the head. Pierce is the last thing we need.