Doc... Do you know anything about this? - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Male30Dan · 10-30-2005, 10:23 PM

Is this guy OK?

They use the words "had" a couple of times which makes me think he did not survive this terrible tragedy! Do you know for sure?

Texas Pastor Electrocuted During Baptism
Oct 30 7:18 PM US/Eastern
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WACO, Texas

A pastor performing a baptism was electrocuted inside his church Sunday morning after grabbing a microphone while partially submerged, a church employee said.

The Rev. Kyle Lake, 33, was standing in water up to his shoulder in a baptismal at University Baptist Church when he was electrocuted, said Jamie Dudley, a church business administrator and wife of another pastor there.

Doctors in the congregation performed chest compressions for 40 minutes before Lake was taken to Hillcrest Baptist Medical Center, Dudley said. Police said they weren't called and the hospital referred calls to the church.

The woman Lake was baptizing was not injured, Dudley said.

Pastors at University Baptist Church routinely use a microphone during baptisms, Dudley said.

"He was grabbing the microphone so everyone could hear," Dudley said. "It's the only way you can be loud enough."

About 800 people attended the morning service, which was larger than normal because it was homecoming weekend at nearby Baylor University, Dudley said.

Lake, who had a wife and three children, had been at the church for nine years, the last seven as pastor, Dudley said.

Five-ofan · 10-30-2005, 10:48 PM

A good friend of mine goes to UBC and they are all upset. I think the best thing that we can do is pray for them. Its just a terrible story. The person who may need the most prayer is the person who was about to be baptized. That has to be hard to go through.

Male30Dan · 10-30-2005, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Five-ofan
A good friend of mine goes to UBC and they are all upset. I think the best thing that we can do is pray for them. Its just a terrible story. The person who may need the most prayer is the person who was about to be baptized. That has to be hard to go through.

No doubt... I can't even imagine being in the water and about to be babtized and then... Wow... Just terrible!

twelli · 10-30-2005, 11:06 PM

why don't they just hang a microphone from the ceiling that the pastor doesn't need to hold or use a cordless type?

Male30Dan · 10-30-2005, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Five-ofan
A good friend of mine goes to UBC and they are all upset. I think the best thing that we can do is pray for them. Its just a terrible story. The person who may need the most prayer is the person who was about to be baptized. That has to be hard to go through.

No doubt... I can't even imagine being in the water and about to be babtized and then... Wow... Just terrible!

Drbio · 10-30-2005, 11:09 PM

I actually only heard about this a few minutes ago on the news. I knew Kyle. He was an example that many of us should follow. I am very upset at this.

Murphy3 · 10-30-2005, 11:12 PM

...he didn't survive.

Male30Dan · 10-30-2005, 11:15 PM

That is just terrible... Prayers for his family should be said by as many as possible...

Just terrible!

chumdawg · 10-31-2005, 12:17 AM

It's stories like these that make you doubt there is a God.

Murphy3 · 10-31-2005, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: chumdawg
It's stories like these that make you doubt there is a God.

Why?

Five-ofan · 10-31-2005, 12:40 AM

Let me preface this by saying I am a christian and I fully believe that there is a god but I can see how a non believer could use this as an example of why there is no god which worries me as much as any of this.

Murphy3 · 10-31-2005, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Five-ofan
Let me preface this by saying I am a christian and I fully believe that there is a god but I can see how a non believer could use this as an example of why there is no god which worries me as much as any of this.

Sure, I can see why a non beleiver could use this as an example...but I don't see how a believer would begin to question whether or not there is a god because of something like this.

Male30Dan · 10-31-2005, 12:58 AM

Chum... Saying that is just not being realistic... As tragic as this is, if you touch live electronics while submerged in water you WILL be electrocuted... God does not live our lives for us... This is nothing unlike a family of four being killed on the road by drunk drivers... If you drink and drive you have a very high risk of harming someone - Not God... God did not put alcohol in that person's body and tell him to drive anymore than did God put a live electronic device on a man submerged in water up to his shoulders... God gives us free will to make our own decisions AND to make our own mistakes.

I hope quoting a movie after something like this is not insensitive, but I think it is true. In City of Angels, after Cage's character lost Meg Ryan's character to the bike/diesel accident, he talked to his angel friend. He asked if he was being punished for his choice and the angel told him that this was simply life. That one day he too would be dying... Accidents happen and no one knows when it will be their time... Some accidents are more tragic than others but you can't think that accidents like the one today mean that God does not exist... It simply means that God does not intervene, (though I guess some would disagree with that in the "miracle" circumstances)... And should God intervene? If so, where does it stop? Does God intervene by making a guy have to use the restroom prior to a blow out that will kill 3 only to come back to a flat tire? Does God intervene for a guy that has Aids due to some guy spitting blood in his face, (lets assume he had a facial cut)? Does God intervene for a guy that is about to bungee jump with a cord that is going to break, despite God not wanting us to do things that can harm our body? Likewise, does God intervene when we get lung cancer due to smoking for 40 years despite God telling us not to put things in our body that will cause harm?

Again, I don't want to be inappropriate in a time such as this by quoting movies and raising touchy questions, but I just think questioning God for something like this is ridiculous... Again, that is just my opinion!

chumdawg · 10-31-2005, 01:34 AM

I'm just thinking that if there were EVER a time that God would intervene and protect His children, it would probably start with something so sacred as baptism.

If God isn't inclined to prevent so tragic a situation as this, one where His followers are doing the ultimate in His work, then why do people even bother with prayer? I think it's a pretty safe bet that if God isn't going to save that pastor who is smack-dab in the middle of the sacred act of baptising someone into His faith, He ain't gonna intervene in whatever problem it is you are praying about.

chumdawg · 10-31-2005, 01:41 AM

Quote:

God does not live our lives for us...

I think a more candid way to say that is this: God does not participate in our lives.

No?

twelli · 10-31-2005, 02:37 AM

Reading the bible (and I do it quite often) I frequently come across contradictions where I don't know what to think, especially in the old testimony.

It's almost like God is putting doubt in the hearts of the people in the first place and then gets upset with those who doesn't follow him. I often wonder why we people are participating in this kind of 'be tempted and try to resist game'. Why has created God us with so many flaws instead of making us without any?

Despite my confusion, I think it is good to believe in God and Eternal Love and I will keep doing so without expecting anything in return. In the meantime, I try to not put myself in obvious and unnessesarily dangerous situations like this poor pastor.

My advice to all believers is: Don't go overboard with ceremonies and all the other peripheral stuff. Believe is inside your heart and manifests itself in the many things you do in your daily live, not in front of 800 people inside a church. Be humble, and spread you love with a helping hand to the needy and good words for those that need comfort.

Peace

Male30Dan · 10-31-2005, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: chumdawg
I'm just thinking that if there were EVER a time that God would intervene and protect His children, it would probably start with something so sacred as baptism.

If God isn't inclined to prevent so tragic a situation as this, one where His followers are doing the ultimate in His work, then why do people even bother with prayer? I think it's a pretty safe bet that if God isn't going to save that pastor who is smack-dab in the middle of the sacred act of baptising someone into His faith, He ain't gonna intervene in whatever problem it is you are praying about.

I can respect what you are saying here, but again, answering prayers is something that can be judged differently in my opinion... I personally think that God knows what is best for my life and if I pray for a new job that I really want and don't get it but I then get as good of a job or better, I truly feel like God had a hand in that. My wife and I always have what we need and never really want in any way. I attribute that to a good relationship with Christ and regular prayer.

Sometimes God tests our faith with stories like this. I feel very strongly that the lady that lost her husband, (certainly someone much more close to this than you and I), will definitely come away from this with the love of God in her heart. If not, I think that is much more tragic than the loss of her husband.

Regarding the "if there were EVER a time" statement, I would simply point you back to my previous post... Surely in those situations someone could say IF THERE WERE EVER A TIME also... Innocent people die by the hundreds, check that, thousands every single day in this world. Every single day... Should God intervene for each of them? Maybe the right answer is yes to you, and that is fine. I just think faith means more without proof and maybe that is how God feels too. I also guess that I have all of the proof I need in the way I feel inside. No death, not my wife, my mother, etc... would change that. It is easy to forget, but Christ is our father. He is the reason we exist. I will not forsake him for any reason, especially not because my loved ones enter his Kingdom - the place I one day want to be.

mary · 10-31-2005, 10:00 AM

I think its futile to try to interpret God's motives. In fact, I believe its wrong to even pretend that we can try. If you believe God is the supreme architect of the universe, then I think you must accept the fact that sometimes it is his will for people to suffer.

I have no further explanation for it, nor do I seek one. Personally, I make a large distinction between questioning what is taught by modern relgion (and how scripture is interpreted) and questioning God directly, and I think we ask "Why?" way too often, instead of relying on our own Faith.

As for God intervening - I recently asked for intervention concerning a personal matter. I can tell you that the outcome was not exactly what I had in mind - but it could have been worse. Regardless, God is not our servant, we are his (if we choose to be). The blessing of the prayer was not that my problem was miraculously fixed, its that I was filled with hope and strenghth - and that has allowed me to endure this crisis.

So did God participate in this? Thats an impossible question to answer from an absolute standpoint.

But since I perceived that he did, I think that's all that mattered.

Drbio · 10-31-2005, 10:03 AM

Chum- It sorrows me to see you say that. I have no idea what reason there could be for this happen, but I would hardly blame God. God allows man to choose and some of our actions have consequence. I know 100% that Kyle would not want anyone to blame God for what happened to him but he would point out that he has just been awarded the Kingdom of Heaven. He would point out that he is enjoying the fellowship of believers in Christ. I simply cannot put blame on God. God did not cause this accident and I am convinced that he weeps when tragedy occurs. However, I am equally convinced that He is taking care of Kyle in a manner so great that we cannot understand. Kyle was strong man of faith and led many to the perfect love and salvation of Jesus Christ. Perhaps Kyle's tragic loss was needed for some reason. Maybe to engage in conversations such as this. Maybe the young lady who was being baptized or a friend, family etc was teetering on the brink of salvation and this was an impetus somehow to get them past their hesitation. I just don't know. I am confused and saddened like many, but I know that God is not to blame.

Sorry if this is confusing....I am still numb over this.

chumdawg · 10-31-2005, 11:41 AM

Thanks for all your thoughts. Doc, I didn't mean to suggest that God was to blame in this (or any similar) situation. Just that it makes you wonder why he wouldn't exert some sort of protective force, if he could.

Mary, I tend to agree with you that it is futile to try to interpret God's motives. What nags at me, though, is that it does seem that the Bible, Jesus's presence on Earth, and God's own direct intervention back in biblical times all happened, or exist, for the purposes of giving we humans an idea of those motives and instructions for how we should lead our lives. I mean, what if Jesus never walked the Earth, what if God never got directly involved, what if we didn't have the Bible? Would it be a fair test for us to somehow intuitively come up with all the correct ways on our own?

And as twelli says, some things can confuse you. I can agree with that. But I can also appreciate the spiritual element of twelli's post and of Dan's.

It's an interesting question in that there are as many individual answers to it as there are individuals.

XERXES · 10-31-2005, 02:38 PM

This is a good subject for Sike to chime in on. His remarks will be worth listening to.

kg_veteran · 10-31-2005, 10:33 PM

I was in church yesterday when we got the news about this. They announced it to our congregation about 30 minutes after he passed away. It really is a horrible tragedy.

It is natural to ask why things happen, but that is a rational question when the real (or more important) question is a relational one: Where were you God? And do you care?

The answer is that God does care. He is the God of all comfort who comforts us in all of our troubles, and the Bible says that when we hurt He hurts with us.

We can look to the story of Lazarus and how Jesus reacted to know how God reacts when we are in pain. When Jesus came and found Mary, and Lazarus had already passed away, the Bible says that he wept with her. He didn't explain why he hadn't arrived earlier to heal Lazarus, nor did he try to explain why Lazarus had died. He simply wept with her.

My prayer is that God will be the God of all comfort to Kyle's family during this time.

Five-ofan · 11-01-2005, 12:16 AM

Mary this is a qoute that kind of goes with what you are saying. Its not an exact correlation but basically it just means that we cant understand god.

"I was talking to a homeless man in a laundry mat recently, and he said that when we reduce Christian spirituality to math we defile the Holy. I thought that was very beautiful and comforting because I have never been good at math. Many of our attempts to understand Christian faith have only cheapened it. I can no more understand the totality of God than the pancake I made for breakfast understands the complexity of me. The little we do understand, that grain of sand our minds are capable of grasping, those ideas such as God is good, God feels, God loves, God knows all, are enough to keep our hearts dwelling on his majesty and otherness forever."
-Donald Miller, Blue Like Jazz

Its talking about the same thing but the idea works here too. We cant understand God or his motives anymore than a pancake can understand us or our motives.

sike · 11-02-2005, 02:06 PM

I just heard of this story today…how terribly sad for the family and friends. I did not know the gentleman, as doc did, but my prayers will be for his loved ones. However, I do not find it to be necessarily logical to use the sadness of this (or any) story as a good argument against the existence of God. For too long men have tried to conform the Christian God to their own standards of “moral” goodness focused on an anthropologically centered (man centered) ethic of “good”. If we (Christians speaking of their God) are to say that God is creator, infinite, transcendent, imminent, omniscient, omni powerful, the Weaver of all that was, is, and ever will be, etc; is it not also logical/reasonable that when He says we will not immediately understand all of His ways that indeed we will not? He is beyond us, His plans and ways are often deeper than human wisdom or convention. God Himself has addressed this issue by devoting an entire 42-chapter book of the Bible to this topic: Job. The overarching lesson of this beautifully poetic book is that God knows what He’s doing and is always perfectly justified in His choices. If He were my equal, I could challenge Him and question Him (as Job attempts) and be justified in doing so. But as He clearly, powerfully, and almost humorously at times explains to Job (and subsequently every believer) in Chapter 38-42, God is not to be tried by His creature, for the creature is not worthy to do so. God stands alone in His universe as the one uncritiqueable (made up word [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] ) entity. He tells us that His ways/plans are for the benefit of Himself and His children. He tells us that there will be ample occasion when we will not immediately comprehend His ways. But He does promise that all His works will, IN THE END, be for our good. (Romans 8:28). If the Bible taught of a God who never allowed pain/suffering/or heartache for His children then we really would have a problem with this and many other sad stories that happen daily in our world. But God has already told us that, “In this world you will have trouble…but fear not…for I have overcome the world.” The man who died was a child of God…meaning that in death he got the best of this deal being the recipient of God’s kingdom. For the family who has temporarily lost their Son/Husband/Father/Pastor we should feel sorrow. But we should also realize that our God will supply all our needs and that somehow despite the immense pain caused by this great loss, He will keep His promise and be their provider. I trust my God, but that’s just it, it requires faith in the first place.

sike · 11-02-2005, 02:16 PM

Quote:

We cant understand God or his motives anymore than a pancake can understand us or our motives.

I totally disagree with this...God has gone to great lengths to communicate with us and reveal Himself. I know much of God, as can any Believer....but the much I know is little in comparison to the infinite there is. The point is that many times we can clearly understand the moving of God...but some times we simply will not.

Quote:

chum: What nags at me, though, is that it does seem that the Bible, Jesus's presence on Earth, and God's own direct intervention back in biblical times all happened, or exist, for the purposes of giving we humans an idea of those motives and instructions for how we should lead our lives.

exactly. He wants us to know Him. He wants us to love Him and follow. We would know nothing of Him if He had not first reached out to reveal Himself, for He is beyond our simple comprehension. But that does not mean that we will understand His every move. To assume that we can or should is really pretty arrogant when you think about it. Especially when you think about how finite we are and how infinite He is.

twelli · 11-03-2005, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: XERXES
This is a good subject for Sike to chime in on. His remarks will be worth listening to.

Xerxes, a man of vision....

Thanks, Sike, for your thoughts. I totally agree. We are not God, so why should we understand everything what is going on.

I'd say, love each other and make the world a better place to be. God will take care of the rest.