Phoenix might lose Joe Johnson after all? - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Evilmav2 · 07-15-2005, 12:18 PM

JJ deal isn't time for Sarver to turn frugal

Jul. 15, 2005 12:00 AM

Suns season ticket renewals are due Monday, but an answer on Joe Johnson's future isn't. What seemed like a slam dunk days ago is looking more like a heave from half court because of Robert Sarver's growing concern about his team's payroll.

Caveat emptor. As you write that check today, know that the giddiness hangover of the postseason has been replaced by a vibe of uneasiness from several Suns officials who believe Johnson's return is no longer imminent.

The Atlanta Hawks are expected to sign the restricted free agent to an offer sheet worth approximately five years and $70 million on July 22. The Suns have the right to match the offer, and many assumed they would in order to keep much of last season's Western Conference title contender intact. But Sarver is concerned about the long-term implications the deal would have on his club, especially when Amaré Stoudemire's contract extension kicks in beginning with the 2006-07 season.

If Johnson returns to the Suns, approximately $54 million would be committed to Johnson, Stoudemire, Shawn Marion and Steve Nash in 2006-07. With the reality of a salary cap and luxury tax - even when factoring in cap aids such as a midlevel exemption - the Suns will face challenges putting together a supporting cast. Sarver became a successful businessman by making decisions with his head, not his heart, and he has the bottom line and a profitability margin on his mind.

That's fine, except that the Suns have sent out signals for several months that closing a deal with Johnson was a priority. General Manager Bryan Colangelo said in April that "my priority No. 1 is to sign Joe Johnson. My other priority No. 1 is to sign Amaré Stoudemire to an extension."

Sarver has spoken many times of Johnson's greatness. Just two weeks ago, Stoudemire said: "I think the main thing right now is that we take care of Joe. I know Joe wants to be here."

Those remarks led many fans to commit money and emotions to Johnson's return. The Suns have sold about 2,500 new season tickets and expect to move another 500. That means nearly 12,000 season tickets to occupy an 18,422-seat arena, which could translate to quite a few sellouts.

Many of those fans wrote checks thinking Johnson would be back.

While some have suggested that Johnson might want to play for the Hawks, the truth is, it doesn't matter. As a restricted free agent, he belongs to the Suns if they match Atlanta's offer. And don't buy the suggestion that he could become a disruptive influence.

Not on a team with a unifying presence such as Nash. Not on a team that has a real chance to be successful.

Plus, Johnson's teammates like him and often have spoken in his defense regarding contract talks.

Which brings up another reason fans won't be too willing to cut Sarver slack if Johnson doesn't come back. The owner could have had him for about $20 million less if the team had signed Johnson to an extension a year ago.

"It wasn't the money to Joe in particular," Sarver said recently. "It was the money to the team in total not knowing what we had that was the key. Sometimes you make good decisions and sometimes you make bad decisions."

It's hard to believe losing two starters - Johnson and Quentin Richardson - from a team close to advancing to the NBA Finals would be a good decision.

And before they write any more checks, fans would like to know whether the Suns agree.

Reach Boivin at paola.boivin@arizonarepublic.com or (602) 444-8956.

Arizona Republic Link

V2M · 07-15-2005, 12:31 PM

Joe Johnson to Atlanta could be one of the better news this off-season.

jthig32 · 07-15-2005, 12:44 PM

So allow me to ask the question:

If signing an aging Steve Nash turns out to not net them a championship, and prevents them from resigning one of the young cornerstones of their team, how would Suns fans feel about that? Does that make the Nash signing a mistake? Does it lend credence to our owner's decision to not resign Steve Nash in the interests of flexibility?

Evilmav2 · 07-15-2005, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: jthig32
So allow me to ask the question:

If signing an aging Steve Nash turns out to not net them a championship, and prevents them from resigning one of the young cornerstones of their team, how would Suns fans feel about that? Does that make the Nash signing a mistake? Does it lend credence to our owner's decision to not resign Steve Nash in the interests of flexibility?

Don't forget that the Sarver-era Suns also traded away Quentin Richardson and a first round draft pick in exchange for garbage, and that move was also effected partially because of Phoenix's salary cap fears. Last Summer the management of the Phoenix Sun's bravely decided to ride the salary cap tiger by signing Q and Nash to their respectively huge contracts (piled on top of Marion's max contract), but now it looks like they've suddenly become afraid of the bucking, restive beast, and after deciding to fling themselves off the tiger's back, they are now being savaged and mauled by numerous salary cap problems that have supervened in the wake of their earlier made decisions to overpay Nash and to recruit Richardson.

I'd say that if the patent salary cap fears of the Sarver Suns-regime end up leaving the sum total of PHX's Summer moves as being the exhange of Quentin Richardson, Joe Johnson, and a first round draft pick for a piece of trash like Kurt Thomas and the journeyman Raja Bell, it'll be mighty hard for me to be able to characterize this Summer's Phoenix Sun's free-agency period as anything short of being an unmitigated, management-damning disaster. Furthermore, I'd say that it seems highly improbable to me that any Phoenix Suns team centered around Amare/Nash/Marion and a bunch of inexpensive, underskilled scrubs will ever be able to duplicate last season's impressive win-loss record, much less fulfill the dreams of their fans by being truly able to challenge for an NBA championship...

dirno2000 · 07-15-2005, 03:09 PM

If I can throw gas on this fire...

----------------------------

Contrary to reports, the Suns have made no commitment to matching Joe Johnson's pending Hawks' $70M, 5-year offer sheet. If it were chairman Jerry Colangelo's call, it'd be a done deal, but new proprietor Robert Sarver is in charge of the checkbook. "Ever since he's taken over he's talked long and loud about fiscal sanity," notes a rival owner. The moment of truth — a week, not 15 days, following the July 22 signing commencement — is approaching.

To put it mildly, the Suns' coaching staff and players are nervous. Not retaining Johnson means taking a giant step backward and reshuffling the game plan despite the impending pickup of Jazz free agent Raja Bell.

Intriguingly, when the Suns are serious about negotiating an agreement nobody does it more lickity-split. It only took GM Bryan Colangelo 45 minutes into the July 1 bargaining period to come to outlandish terms (nearly $5M per over five) with Bell. Years ago, Jerry C. managed to sign Tom Chambers and Danny Manning only minutes following the stroke of negotiation. Question is, why use up so much cap room if you plan to hold on to Johnson?

NY Post

EricaLubarsky · 07-15-2005, 03:39 PM

First Stackhouse and then Sarver, eh...

vjz · 07-15-2005, 04:17 PM

Looks like the "guaranteed luxury tax for teams over the cap" provision in the new CBA is making owners think hard about committing huge amounts of money. And rightly so.

If the Suns lose JJ, that'll be the best news for the Mavs this offseason.

Evilmav2 · 07-15-2005, 04:34 PM

And the news for Phoenix doesn't really get better... Evidently, not only does it look like the Suns may be afraid to match Atlanta's contract offer to Johnson, but some Phoenix sources are saying that JJ wants out of Phoenix and that both he and his agent Arn Tellem are very eager to punish the Sarver regime for refusing to discuss extending his client's contract last Summer.

Here is what Phoenix area sports radio guy John Gambadoro had to say about JJ's desire to leave town on the Fox Arizona Sports Report a couple of days back (via phxsuns.net):

Quote:

"Well, ya know, we all thought initially that Joe was only gonna take that offer, that way he could get more money out of the Suns, ‘cause the Suns would match it, but the reality is that Joe Johnson does want to play for the Atlanta Hawks. He does not wanna play for the Phoenix Suns right now.

A couple of reasons:

One, he has been convinced that he cannot become an All-Star playing behind Amare Stoudemire, Shawn Marion, and Steve Nash...that if he goes to Atlanta he becomes the number one guy, and he teams with a lot of young players like Marvin Williams, and Josh Childress, and Josh Smith, and he becomes the man.

Second, his family; his family is from the South, from Arkansas. He does wanna play in the South.

And then thirdly, he is still furious at the Phoenix Suns for the way the contract negotiations were handled last year. They gave Quentin Richardson 46 million dollars last year, and they didn't sign Joe to an extension, when they had the opportunity. Then this year turns around and they offer him a 60 million dollar deal, which is far less than what the maximum is, so Joe is still very upset with the way the Suns have handled the contract situation, and believe it or not, he would prefer to play for the Atlanta Hawks, over the Phoenix Suns.

Additionally, if things don't already look bad enough for Garver & co, it also appears that Phoenix may have trouble re-signing Stephen Hunter, because they are reportedly low-balling him on both the money and the length of contract in their offers to the young free agent...

GP · 07-15-2005, 04:55 PM

Anybody who thinks JJ is worth a maximum contract is crazy. He is good but he isn't that good. The Suns could spend that money on a couple of very good players, tweak their offense and actually start running plays for Marion. This team still has a young and improving Stoudemire, excellent players in Nash and Marion all three of which are all NBA players. Really, the Suns might just be better off picking up Finley after he is waived and re-signing Jim Jackson and Steven Hunter. All I can say is we'll see what happens. I'll bet they have a contingency plan and are able to put together a first rate squad.

HexNBA · 07-15-2005, 04:58 PM

"it also appears that Phoenix may have trouble re-signing Stephen Hunter, because they are reportedly low-balling him on both the money and the length of contract " wasnt it kind of obvious they didnt really want him after the signing of raja bell though? from what i understand bell got pretty much all of the MLE. and hunter said before he wasnt gonna play for jus the $1.3/4 million exception.

also joe johnson with the hawks would be a bad mistake for him. if he thinks he can become an allstar there, hah.

jthig32 · 07-15-2005, 05:01 PM

I realize you didn't draw the direct comparison, but you're nuts if you think Fin would come anywhere close to filling Johnson's shoes for them. He is a very underrated player at this point in his career, IMO. I don't think he's worth the Max either, but if another team's willing to pay it, well that's the cost of doing business.

And running plays for Marion?? Hmm. I've always seen him as a catch and shoot/slashing offensive player. He's at his best in a free-flowing system. Can't see him being all that effective in a post-up or pick and roll situation.

grndmstr_c · 07-15-2005, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Anybody who thinks JJ is worth a maximum contract is crazy. He is good but he isn't that good. The Suns could spend that money on a couple of very good players, tweak their offense and actually start running plays for Marion.

Easier said than done. Phoenix is not going to have any cap room to throw money around for the forseeable future, and unlike the Mavs do not have a deep roster that they can use to make up the balance in trades. Make no mistake, if JJ gets away they've taken a big step backwards.

And as jthig said, Marion's not really a guy you want to run a lot of plays for. Not taking anything away from him, but being a go-to guy on the offensive end is not his strength. Check out his efg% compared to the percentage of his field goals that were assisted the last few years.

60% of his fg's were assisted in 03/04 and he had an efg% of 47.6%
68% of his fg's were assisted in 02/03 and he had an efg% of 50%
73% of his fg's were assisted in 04/05 and he had an efg% of 52%

Bit of a conspicuous pattern there, don't you think?

GP · 07-15-2005, 05:15 PM

Hunter isn't really that good to be demanding the mid level exception. I don't think he's as good as players like Chris Mihm or Michael Doleac and neither will ever be confused with an all NBA player.

The only comparison between JJ and Finley is that both are terrific shooters. If Phoenix can acquire Finley on the cheap then they have a guy who is basically a scorer and 3 point specialist. Finley isn't nearly as bad a player as guys on this board often try to make him out to be. In fact, he's pretty damned good. I am sure getting all those open shots that Nash and Amare would get him would really get his game going. Finley really missed getting those open looks on the break this year.

As for Marion not being able to be the main option for a couple of plays you've got to be kidding. This guy is one of the best players in the NBA. He is able to get 20 & 10 in spite of not getting plays ran for him not because of it. Nash and Amare would still be the focal points of the offense but Marion would just get more opportunities.

chumdawg · 07-15-2005, 05:23 PM

This situation reminds me of an old quote by Cuban:

Quote:

"It's not about money," Cuban says slowly. "It's about getting people to want to work for you. I want people to come here. I tried to do the same thing at Broadcast. We're trying to create an environment where people want to work.

"I've said this before. In the dot-com world, you see examples of people getting $100 million...Amazon gave somebody a billion dollars worth of [stock] options. A billion dollars worth of options to come work for them. That's the world I come from. So, like, you have to compete in a huge way to get the talent and the people you want. So, for me, it's not about the money."

I agree with GMC. They'll be capped out whether they sign Johnson or not, so they'll be hampered in their efforts to acquire talent to replace him. They probably ought to go ahead and match, and then see if they can trade him if things get tough.

grndmstr_c · 07-15-2005, 05:34 PM

Quote:

As for Marion not being able to be the main option for a couple of plays you've got to be kidding. This guy is one of the best players in the NBA. He is able to get 20 & 10 in spite of not getting plays ran for him not because of it. Nash and Amare would still be the focal points of the offense but Marion would just get more opportunities.

See, when I look at Marion and see that his best year as a pro came when he wasn't expected to carry much of a load as a primary option offensively, I don't see that as a very good argument for changing his role. Quite the opposite, the way I see it Phoenix utilized him pretty much perfectly last season and if they try to change that his productivity will suffer. Could he still be effective carrying more of an offensive load? Yes. But he won't be as effective as he was last year if he's asked to do that, and he won't be as effective as Johnson was either. It's just not the strength of his game.

GP · 07-15-2005, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c

Quote:

Anybody who thinks JJ is worth a maximum contract is crazy. He is good but he isn't that good. The Suns could spend that money on a couple of very good players, tweak their offense and actually start running plays for Marion.

Easier said than done. Phoenix is not going to have any cap room to throw money around for the forseeable future, and unlike the Mavs do not have a deep roster that they can use to make up the balance in trades. Make no mistake, if JJ gets away they've taken a big step backwards.

And as jthig said, Marion's not really a guy you want to run a lot of plays for. Not taking anything away from him, but being a go-to guy on the offensive end is not his strength. Check out his efg% compared to the percentage of his field goals that were assisted the last few years.

60% of his fg's were assisted in 03/04 and he had an efg% of 47.6%
68% of his fg's were assisted in 02/03 and he had an efg% of 50%
73% of his fg's were assisted in 04/05 and he had an efg% of 52%

Bit of a conspicuous pattern there, don't you think?

I'd like to know where in hell you always get all of these stats at. I made that post and you have these stats to rebut my point in under a minute. You remind me of an ex-freind of mine who always wanted to debate physics with me when I was an undergraduate. Unfortunately, he would always try to strengthen his points by using double talk or out and out fabrications. Personally, I don't even know what an efg% is and I played basketball all of my life. These stats like most stats are useless to me because: a) I didn't compile them so I don't know their context; b) they most likely aren't comparing the same things (different players on the team, different coaches, different offenses); c) most stats don't really measure what they are supposed to anyway. d) no stat is valid UNLESS there has been a test ran on them to find out whether or not the differences actually mean anything or not. Sometimes, stats may look different but actually may not be. Personally, I find people who use stats to constantly make points to be very, very tiring.

grndmstr_c · 07-15-2005, 05:52 PM

Quote:

I'd like to know where in hell you always get all of these stats at. I made that post and you have these stats to rebut my point in under a minute. You remind me of an ex-freind of mine who always wanted to debate physics with me when I was an undergraduate. Unfortunately, he would always try to strengthen his points by using double talk or out and out fabrications. Personally, I don't even know what an efg% is and I played basketball all of my life. These stats like most stats are useless to me because: a) I didn't compile them so I don't know their context; b) they most likely aren't comparing the same things (different players on the team, different coaches, different offenses); c) most stats don't really measure what they are supposed to anyway. d) no stat is valid UNLESS there has been a test ran on them to find out whether or not the differences actually mean anything or not. Sometimes, stats may look different but actually may not be. Personally, I find people who use stats to constantly make points to be very, very tiring.

Something tells me your response would have looked a little different if the stats I'd quoted had supported your argument.

But at any rate, they came from 82games.com, and efg% is a modified fg% that takes into account the value of a 3pt shot (eg., if a player shoots 33% from three point land that would equate to an efg% of 50% on three pointers). Nothing mysterious about it.

And as a side note, I'd just like to add that personally, I find people who use statistically uninformed opinions to constantly make points to be very, very unreliable.

4cwebb · 07-15-2005, 09:20 PM

Effectively, the Suns are kicking themselves for stupidly giving Marion a max extension a few years ago. The guy put up some great numbers last year, but he's not a max player. Stats aside, I happen to agree with grandmaster on this point: Marion doesn't create for himself. His best years in the NBA have come due largely to the fact that he has played alongside two of the best PGs of his era (Kidd and Nash). When he didn't have those guys setting him up for oops and open threes, his game wasn't nearly as effective. JJohnson is much more important to that team's success, imho, than Marion. If PHX lets him walk they are making a pretty big mistake.

FilthyFinMavs · 07-15-2005, 10:10 PM

Why not match then trade him to the Hawks or any other team that wants him? Or do you have to wait atleast a year to do so?

Drbio · 07-15-2005, 11:41 PM

You can't match and trade.

bernardos70 · 07-16-2005, 02:45 PM

Is this the Phoenix Suns and its free-spending ownership I heard someone talk about a few days ago when talking about the Mavs' cheap ass owner desperately slashing salary?

chumdawg · 07-16-2005, 04:12 PM

The day of reckoning is yet to come for the Suns. Wait and see what they do before you decide if our owner is cheap-ass in comparison.

grndmstr_c · 07-16-2005, 04:25 PM

Quote:

The day of reckoning is yet to come for the Suns. Wait and see what they do before you decide if our owner is cheap-ass in comparison.

Now if we can just get you to take that kind of a patient approach to the Mavs' dealings we'll be in business.

dirno2000 · 07-16-2005, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c

Quote:

The day of reckoning is yet to come for the Suns. Wait and see what they do before you decide if our owner is cheap-ass in comparison.

Now if we can just get you to take that kind of a patient approach to the Mavs' dealings we'll be in business.

touche

rakesh.s · 07-16-2005, 04:54 PM

Johnson Genuinely Wants To Play For Atlanta

AZCentral.com - According to John Gambadoro, Joe Johnson has told people close to him that he wants to part ways with the Phoenix Suns and play for the Atlanta Hawks .

Johnson is convinced that he cannot be an All-Star playing behind Amare Stoudemire, Shawn Marion and Steve Nash and that he if goes to Atlanta he can be the focal point of a young team on the rise.

Johnson is expected to sign a five-year, $70 million dollar offer sheet from Atlanta next week and hopes that the Suns don't match. That way he could team with Josh Smith, Josh Childress and Marvin Williams on a team that would feature four good young players under the age of 24. And being from the South, he would be playing closer to home. Johnson is apparently furious that the Suns did not take care of his contract status last year, opting instead to sign Quentin Richardson and then offering him less than a maximum deal this month.

rakesh.s · 07-16-2005, 04:54 PM

Suns May Look To Knicks For Cap Room Again, This Time Marion

CNNSI - Sports Illustrated's Ian Thomsen reports that Isiah Thomas might take a run later at Phoenix forward Shawn Marion, whose remaining deal for four years and $63 million could become prohibitive if the Suns retain Joe Johnson and re-sign Amare Stoudemire to max deals.

By sending Kurt Thomas to Phoenix last month for Quentin Richardson, Thomas essentially supplied the Suns with Marion's replacement at power forward. If the Suns are intent on wiping Marion off their books, trading him to New York prior to the February deadline for the expiring $14 million contract of Tim Thomas would be a logical move

chumdawg · 07-16-2005, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: dirno2000

Quote:

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c

Quote:

The day of reckoning is yet to come for the Suns. Wait and see what they do before you decide if our owner is cheap-ass in comparison.

Now if we can just get you to take that kind of a patient approach to the Mavs' dealings we'll be in business.

touche

That's fair enough, in some ways. But 90% of my criticism has to do with July 1, 2004, a day which passed in infamy some time ago now. I don't feel like I need to wait any longer to analyze that particular move. Especially now that it appears the other shoe is getting ready to drop.

But, I *am* trying to hold out hope that the new regime can find a way to make do with what's left over.

kg_veteran · 07-16-2005, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: rakesh.s
If the Suns are intent on wiping Marion off their books, trading him to New York prior to the February deadline for the expiring $14 million contract of Tim Thomas would be a logical move

Why in the world would the Suns be intent on "wiping" a 20/10 guy "off their books"?

Only for the NYKs would the media engage in such silly speculative talk.

DevinHarriswillstart · 07-16-2005, 07:37 PM

Big score for Isiah if he gets Marion for Tim Thomas. Marbury, Crawford, Q rich, Marion, Jerome James sounds like a darn good line-up in the east.

V2M · 07-16-2005, 07:58 PM

Marion for Thomas' (expiring contract or not) would be one of the dumbest trades ever. PHX fans would never forgive Sarver and Colangelos if that trade ever passes.
Saying that, as a Mavs fan, I'd love to see Marion, who's one of the best Dirk-defenders, shipped to an Eastern team.

chumdawg · 07-27-2005, 04:36 PM

Suns trade Voskhul to Charlotte to clear some cash to spend on JJ. Also intend to amnestize Eisley to save some more dough.

ESPN

dirno2000 · 07-27-2005, 04:50 PM

I don't see how the Eisley move would help. He was already coming off the books next year.

LRB · 07-27-2005, 05:01 PM

My question is why spend the MLE on Raja Bell of all people if you're scrapping to find money to sign Joe Johnson? I say sign JJ, then look at signing spares like Raja.

FINtastic · 07-27-2005, 05:19 PM

This whole Phoenix situation doesn't add up to me. You got an owner who doesn't seem to be all that willing to pay the luxury tax. You have two players - Johnson and Stoudemire - who by the beginning of the 2006-2007 season, will both supposedly have max contracts (or darn close to it) meaning 4 players on that team will be paid over $50 million. It seems to me that something's gotta give somewhere.

alby · 07-27-2005, 05:24 PM

Yeah that team isn't going anywhere.

DevinHarriswillstart · 07-27-2005, 07:09 PM

I agree, I think Phoenix is so over-rated. Trading away Nate Robinson will soon turn out to be one of the dumbest moves of the franchise. That kid can flat out play and woulda bee a perfect apprentice to the aging Nash. Their season depends on Nash and Nash alone. If he gets injured its over for them.

DevinHarriswillstart · 07-27-2005, 07:12 PM

Um Jake Voskul makes 1.85 million. Can someone tell me how this helps them?

snoop · 07-28-2005, 03:45 PM

the suns will regret that match of atlanta if it happens. JJ is not a max player and it's a shock that with the matrix amare and nash that this is so important to them. The suns need depth at all positions, not another max contract

The Miles · 07-28-2005, 04:39 PM

The Suns should match Joe Johnson and then look to trade Shawn Marion for salary relief. You can get more than Tim Thomas, that is for sure. But if it comes down to keeping Marion or Johnson, I'd keep Johnson every time. The kid is flat out the most underated player in the NBA. Can play three position, can defend four positions (occasional PF, he has the size/bulk to guard alot of PFs and has guarded them in the past), is a great shooter from the midrange and behind the arc, well above average ball handling, above average court vision, the kid is built like a tank, and he is young, part of the future of that organization along with Amare. This doesn't even take into account how good he is defensively, he is severly underated as a defender. Other than a lesser than Kobe/TMac level 1st step and his trait of pulling up in the lane for short runners (ala Nick) instead of completely finishing (like say TMac), the guy really doesn't have a weakness.

I dunno, in a perfect world you keep all four of them. But in their owner's reality, you know that you don't even think about letting Amare go or trading him. You are committed to Nash at this time, so you keep him. It then comes down to Johnson or Marion, I would choose Johnson. Marion has great stats but he isn't a franchise player or even a #2, Joe is a #2 to me, easily.

The Miles · 07-28-2005, 04:43 PM

And the main reason you can afford to let Marion go is because of the added rebounding of the Kurt Thomas trade. If I were the Suns I would keep all four. You started out so well, trading your weakest link to acquire a player that fills their biggest weakness, inside toughness and rebounding. Nash + Johnson + Marion + Amare + Kurt is an amazing lineup, add in a bench with Raja Bell, Jim Jackson, Leahandro Barbosa, and if they can keep him, Steven Hunter, and the Suns have a very, very dynamic and strong 9 man rotation. I am not sure why the Suns would go to all the trouble to sign Steve Nash if they were just going to let either Marion or Johnson go, either by free agency or in a trade. You want those guys around for Nash to feed the ball to.

If they just stand pat, keep Joe, and pay some luxury tax in the future, they will be a better team. Kurt Thomas/Raja Bell is an upgrade to Steven Hunter/Quentin Richardson, so why mess that up? Why even get Nash if you aren't going to surround him?