Pine tar or Dirt?

[mary]

I know there's a World Series discussion, but I think this is threadworthy. For the moment, I'm going with pine tar.

[nashtymavsfan13]

wow, it looks like dirt to me though. Pitchers don't really have that much of a need for pine tar though. I think it's probably just dirt that stuck to his hand cuz it was sweaty.

[chumdawg]

Oh, it was clearly pine tar or something similar.

[mary]

Originally Posted by nashtymavsfan13

wow, it looks like dirt to me though. Pitchers don't really have that much of a need for pine tar though. I think it's probably just dirt that stuck to his hand cuz it was sweaty.

To tell you the truth, I went with dirt at first. But then in post game, Rogers denied that the Ump even mentioned it to him....so I switched to pine tar...but I could easily switch back to dirt any minute now.

[nashtymavsfan13]

It's really hard to tell, does it matter though? I forgot if there's a rule against pine tar, is there?

[mary]

Originally Posted by nashtymavsfan13

It's really hard to tell, does it matter though? I forgot if there's a rule against pine tar, is there?

The rule is you get ejected from the game for having a foreign substance on your hand...I think.

5-0?

[nashtymavsfan13]

Hmm, well it doesn't really matter now. It's soo hard to tell from that picture. My guess would be that it is dirt, but I guess I always try to give the player the benefit of the doubt. I think this just gives the Cards an excuse/complaint for after they lose.

[chumdawg]

It was definitely something sticky.

[Windmill360]

"I just came." - Dane Cook.

Oh sorry this isn't the random statement thread.

[nashtymavsfan13]

Detroit 3, St. Louis 1

By RONALD BLUM, AP Baseball Writer
October 23, 2006

DETROIT (AP) -- Was it dirt? A smudge from a resin bag? A magic elixir?

Don't ask the St. Louis Cardinals what that stuff was on Kenny Rogers' pitching hand.

They didn't get a good look at it, and even when he wiped it off, they still barely hit the baseballs he was throwing.

Virtually untouchable this October, Rogers smothered the Cardinals on two hits over eight shutout innings, leading Detroit to a 3-1 victory on a chilly Sunday night that tied the World Series at one game apiece.

Rogers figured in a first-inning flap regarding something noticeable on his pitching hand. It appeared to be something dirty or dark, and umpires brought Cardinals manager Tony La Russa out to the field at the end of the first for a brief discussion.

"It was a big clump of dirt, and I wiped it off," Rogers said. "I didn't know it was there, and they told me and I took it off, and it wasn't a big deal."

Maybe not to him. But certainly to most others.

"It's not important to talk about," La Russa said tersely to reporters.

But according to Tigers manager Jim Leyland -- La Russa's good buddy -- La Russa discussed it with the umps.

"I know Tony said, `Hey, I don't want to make any issue here, but a couple of my players are saying that the ball is acting a little funny,"' Leyland said. "And obviously they were a little suspicious."

Leyland, who talked to three umps near the third-base line in the middle of the second, joked about the fuss.

"He was pretty clean the rest of the way," Leyland said.

Steve Palermo, one of baseball's umpire supervisors, said plate ump Alfonzo Marquez noticed the dirt and asked Rogers to clean up. Palermo brushed off thoughts of any nefarious plot.

"Dirt is not a foreign substance," Palermo said. "That's what we play on. That's the playing surface."

Cardinals pitching coach Dave Duncan, without accusing Rogers, noted that St. Louis reliever Julian Tavarez was suspended when pine tar was detected on his cap in 2004.

"There were guys upstairs watching TV and they came down and said it was on TV," Duncan said. "Any time you get a better grip on the ball, you're going to increase the velocity of the spin on the ball, whether you're throwing a curveball, sinker, slider, whatever it is. It would have more bite."

Cardinals second baseman Aaron Miles also brought up pine tar.

"Somebody said they thought they saw pine tar on him. That's about it," he said. "Whether he got rid of it, or he never had it in the first place, we don't know. His stuff was good all game."

Rogers extended his scoreless streak to 23 postseason innings this year and 24 1-3 postseason innings overall, a streak that began in 2003 with Minnesota. It is the longest streak since Curt Schilling tossed 25 scoreless innings in 1993 and 2001.

Rogers became only the second pitcher to have three scoreless starts in a single postseason. Christy Mathewson had three complete-game shutouts (27 innings) for the Philadelphia Athletics in the 1905 World Series.

"I'm no Christy Mathewson, that's for sure," Rogers said.

Rogers struck out five and walked three, improving to 3-0 in this postseason. He was 0-3 with an 8.85 ERA in the postseason before this year, and credited his turnaround to his Game 3 start against the New York Yankees in the first round.

"With any athlete I think the longer you fail at something, the harder it is to turn that corner," Rogers said. "Without a doubt I believe going out there and having success against that Yankee team was huge for me, huge for my confidence."

Todd Jones came on in the ninth and allowed Scott Rolen's two-out single, then misplayed Juan Encarnacion's comebacker for an error that put runners on the corners.

"I just missed it. It's embarrassing," Jones said. "I'm going to have 7,000 messages from every coach who ever coached me about that."

Jim Edmonds blooped a double down the left-field line that scored Rolen, and Jones hit Preston Wilson with a pitch, loading the bases.

After a visit from pitching coach Chuck Hernandez, Jones retired Yadier Molina on a forceout, preserving the shaky save and completing a four-hitter.

"He's going to take a little PFP -- that's pitchers' fielding practice -- before he gets on the bus tonight," Leyland joked.

Craig Monroe got the Tigers started by homering for the second straight night, a solo shot off Jeff Weaver in a two-run first, and Carlos Guillen and Sean Casey also drove in runs for Detroit. Guillen had three hits falling a home run short of the cycle.

"I'm shocked sometimes of myself," Monroe said. "I'm relaxed and having fun. I think that's the big thing. I'm not getting caught up in all the things that are going on around me."

Rogers allowed an infield single by Rolen in the first that third baseman Brandon Inge could only knock down. He didn't give up another hit until Molina singled to right leading off the eighth.

In a battle of starters who flopped with the Yankees, Weaver allowed at least two runners in every inning. He left after five, having allowed three runs and nine hits.

"I made one bad pitch to Monroe, a cutter down the middle that he didn't miss," Weaver said. "Other than that, I felt good. Just a lot of balls that bled in."

One night after St. Louis got the National League's first Series win since 2003, Detroit made sure one record won't fall this year: There have never been three straight Series sweeps.

Following a travel day, the new Busch Stadium in St. Louis hosts its first Series game Tuesday night, with Cardinals ace Chris Carpenter pitching against Nate Robertson.

Monroe gave Detroit a quick lead, hitting Weaver's sixth pitch into the seats in left-center for his second homer in the Series and his fifth in the postseason, tying Hank Greenberg's Tigers career record. One out later, Magglio Ordonez singled, and Guillen doubled him home with a drive to left, a drive that short-hopped the wall

Guillen tripled down the right-field line in the fifth -- Encarnacion, a former Tiger, had trouble coming up with the ball -- and Casey singled him home with two outs.

Known as The Gambler, Rogers pitched with as much electricity as the Las Vegas Strip. He spun off the mound when he walked Scott Spiezio, and made huge hops over the World Series logo when he walked from the mound back to the Tigers dugout on the third-base side. The 41-year-old pumped his arm and snapped his head when David Eckstein hit into a double-play grounder that ended the eighth.

"It makes me nervous to see someone that pumped up," Leyland said.

Notes

Schilling compiled his scoreless streak in 1993 with Philadelphia and 2001 with Arizona. ... The Tigers were 1-for-9 with runners in scoring position. ... St. Louis was 23-24 against southpaws during the regular season and had trouble against the Mets' Tom Glavine and Oliver Perez in the NL championship series.

[FINtastic]

It does look a lot lighter in color than dirt. However, didn't he wipe it off after the first inning? Whatever it was, he didn't really seem to need it as he was money all night long.

[Male30Dan]

Gotta go with Pine Tar or some foreign substance as there have been pictures surfaced that showed the same exact substance in the exact same place from previous games in the playoffs. In fact, espn has it on their main page right now. There is no way he "accidentaly" rubbed his hand against a clump of dirt 2-3 straight starts in the post season, all of which he was phenominal in! With that said, he indeed was money even after he wiped it off.

[Male30Dan]

Just thought I would add the following picture:



The pic on the left is his hand in the ALCS. The one on the right was last night.

[Male30Dan]

Pretty damn condemning if you ask me.

[jthig32]

Ha! "Just dirt"...

Very conveniant that he's had that "dirt" every time he's pitched in the playoffs according to video from ESPN.

Reason number 400 to dislike Kenny Rogers.

[fluid.forty.one]

Originally Posted by Male23Dan

Just thought I would add the following picture:



The pic on the left is his hand in the ALCS. The one on the right was last night.

Wouldn't he have to grip the ball with that part of his hand for it to have any affect?

[MavsX]

yeah dudes..it is NOT dirt.. They showed it on the game last night...even after it was "washed" off it left a residue....no questions..it was NOT dirt...i dont know what it was..definately sticket...and also could be pine tar

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

Wouldn't he have to grip the ball with that part of his hand for it to have any affect?

No, he would stick his fingers into that spot when he makes a fist, giving him a better grip on the ball.

[fluid.forty.one]

got it... he just "reloads" after every pitch

[MavsX]

cheaters never win.. except in this case when the tigers won game 2 of the world series...

[mkat]

they took it off after the first inning...therefore, it had not effect on his game.

[MavsX]

yeah i know..i guess i was thinking more along the lines as the ALCS and other games in which he has not been "caught"

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by mkat

they took it off after the first inning...therefore, it had not effect on his game.

How about every other game of the playoffs that he pitched with it?

[mary]

And how do we know he didn't have any the rest of the game? Was he inspected in anyway?

There could have been residual substance left on his hand. He could've had it stashed in multiple places...maybe the bill of his cap. I don't think you can definitely say it had no effect on the game one way or the other.

[Five-ofan]

Sorry Im late to the party but yes Mary, it is illegal to apply a foreign substance to the ball. Its an auto ejection and a 10 day suspension so he would be done for the year. To be honest if its not pine tar, imo the next most likely substance would be Iodine. Iodine has no use whatsoever on a baseball to my knowledge BUT his hand was still discolored after he washed it off which Ive never seen dirt do. Iodine does leave that color though.

As for Pine tar, yes Nashty, its helps you ALOT if you are a pitcher. When I was in high school, and we were going to play against a guy with a great curveball, we usually had someone pitch using pine tar in a couple of practices to get used to it. I got to be the batting practice pitcher twice doing that and let me tell you, its pretty fun to pitch with pine tar. For one, it gives you much better grip of a baseball which is what allows you to spin it. The spin is what makes it curve. Now the other part is that if you actually get any pine tar on the ball(which you are going to do) the pine tar on the ball will make the air around the ball move differently and it can make a ball dance. Its pretty cool to pitch with it...

I wouldnt throw him under the bus for this though. Pine tar is a fairly widely used substance in cold weather. To be honest I wouldnt be suprised to find out that the Cards starter had pine tar too. As long as you dont over do it, its not "that" big a deal. The only suprise is that Kenny was this obvious about it. I would have expected it to be on the inside of his glove which would hide it to a certain extent.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Sorry Im late to the party but yes Mary, it is illegal to apply a foreign substance to the ball. Its an auto ejection and a 10 day suspension so he would be done for the year. To be honest if its not pine tar, imo the next most likely substance would be Iodine. Iodine has no use whatsoever on a baseball to my knowledge BUT his hand was still discolored after he washed it off which Ive never seen dirt do. Iodine does leave that color though.

As for Pine tar, yes Nashty, its helps you ALOT if you are a pitcher. When I was in high school, and we were going to play against a guy with a great curveball, we usually had someone pitch using pine tar in a couple of practices to get used to it. I got to be the batting practice pitcher twice doing that and let me tell you, its pretty fun to pitch with pine tar. For one, it gives you much better grip of a baseball which is what allows you to spin it. The spin is what makes it curve. Now the other part is that if you actually get any pine tar on the ball(which you are going to do) the pine tar on the ball will make the air around the ball move differently and it can make a ball dance. Its pretty cool to pitch with it...

I wouldnt throw him under the bus for this though. Pine tar is a fairly widely used substance in cold weather. To be honest I wouldnt be suprised to find out that the Cards starter had pine tar too. As long as you dont over do it, its not "that" big a deal. The only suprise is that Kenny was this obvious about it. I would have expected it to be on the inside of his glove which would hide it to a certain extent.

Regardless of how many pitchers might do this, a starting pitchers in the World Series getting caught with Pine Tar would be a huge story.

Finding out that he's been using it for the entire playoff run, where he's posted numbers as good as any in post season history? That would make the story unbelievably huge.

[MavsX]

thats true....is this as big as say..corking your bat..??

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Male23Dan

Just thought I would add the following picture:

Looks like someone needs to learn how to wipe properly...

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by MavsX

thats true....is this as big as say..corking your bat..??

Pitchers using Pine Tar is almost certainly more common that corking a bat, but someone being caught doing either is a pretty big story.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by MavsX

thats true....is this as big as say..corking your bat..??

No, for whatever reason, people have always been much easier on pitchers cheating than they have been on hitters...

[nashtymavsfan13]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Sorry Im late to the party but yes Mary, it is illegal to apply a foreign substance to the ball. Its an auto ejection and a 10 day suspension so he would be done for the year. To be honest if its not pine tar, imo the next most likely substance would be Iodine. Iodine has no use whatsoever on a baseball to my knowledge BUT his hand was still discolored after he washed it off which Ive never seen dirt do. Iodine does leave that color though.

As for Pine tar, yes Nashty, its helps you ALOT if you are a pitcher. When I was in high school, and we were going to play against a guy with a great curveball, we usually had someone pitch using pine tar in a couple of practices to get used to it. I got to be the batting practice pitcher twice doing that and let me tell you, its pretty fun to pitch with pine tar. For one, it gives you much better grip of a baseball which is what allows you to spin it. The spin is what makes it curve. Now the other part is that if you actually get any pine tar on the ball(which you are going to do) the pine tar on the ball will make the air around the ball move differently and it can make a ball dance. Its pretty cool to pitch with it...

I wouldnt throw him under the bus for this though. Pine tar is a fairly widely used substance in cold weather. To be honest I wouldnt be suprised to find out that the Cards starter had pine tar too. As long as you dont over do it, its not "that" big a deal. The only suprise is that Kenny was this obvious about it. I would have expected it to be on the inside of his glove which would hide it to a certain extent.

Hmm, thanks for the info, I didn't know that. That's pretty cool that you guys used it in practice, we should do that.

[Darth Ape]

I think it's poop. He should have washed his hands.

[fluid.forty.one]

after seeing the video, it definatly looks like pine tar

[MavsX]

or it might be poop as darth ape suggested...

[nashtymavsfan13]

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

after seeing the video, it definatly looks like pine tar

From the picture that mary posted, I first thought it was dirt. After seeing part of the video on PTI this afternoon, I definetly think it is pine tar. It looked like a sticky substance, and it doesn't look like dirt in the video.

[nashtymavsfan13]

La Russa on Rogers: 'I don't believe it was dirt'

By BEN WALKER, AP Baseball Writer
October 23, 2006

ST. LOUIS (AP) -- Tony La Russa kept talking about Kenny Rogers, his words from the interview room booming all around Busch Stadium, courtesy of the PA system. One by one, the Detroit Tigers stopped their workout to listen.

"I don't believe it was dirt," they heard the St. Louis manager say. "Didn't look like dirt."

A lot of baseball fans weren't buying Rogers' explanation, either. So instead of looking to Game 3 of the World Series, the focus Monday stayed squarely on Game 2. Specifically, on what Rogers had at the base of his left thumb -- and whether it was there before.

"We know it's all over the place right now," umpires' supervisor Steve Palermo said.

Some photographs from Rogers' start in the AL championship series against Oakland showed what appeared to be the same kind of smudge on his pitching hand that caught everyone's attention Sunday night.

Prompted by La Russa, the umpires asked Rogers to clean off his left hand before the second inning. He wound up pitching eight shutout innings in a 3-1 victory that evened the World Series at one game each.

Rogers, who's gone from playoff farce to postseason force this October, insisted it was an innocent mistake.

"I rub up the balls between the innings and before the game all of the time," Rogers said Monday. "I rub up the bullpen balls I pitch with with mud, resin, spit. I do it all the time. They rub the ball up, too, with mud before the games.

"The game balls, they're dirty. Usually, when I get done, there's not much on my hand, but I guess a little bit more than normal. I wiped it off and proceeded to pitch seven pretty good innings," he said. "Mud, resin, sweat. It's always there. I try not to go crazy with it, but it's not making my pitches do anything crazy."

Later, it was La Russa's turn to have his say. His off-day news conference was piped over the Busch Stadium public-address system, so his thoughts echoed from every corner of the empty ballpark.

The Tigers had just come onto the field for practice, and they were instantly surrounded by La Russa's voice giving a lengthy analysis.

The first question skipped right past Game 3 -- it's Tuesday night, with reigning NL Cy Young winner Chris Carpenter starting against Nate Robertson.

Instead, it was about Rogers, who has pitched 23 scoreless innings this postseason -- after going 0-3 with an 8.85 ERA in previous postseasons.

La Russa's answer went on for five minutes.

He said he brought the smudge to the umpires' attention, but did not demand they search Rogers. They didn't. La Russa also said the Cardinals were aware Rogers had a similar spot earlier in the postseason.

"I said, `I don't like this stuff, let's get it fixed.' If it gets fixed let's play the game. It got fixed, in my opinion," he said.

"If he didn't get rid of it, I would have challenged it. But I do think it's a little bit part of the game at times, and don't go crazy," he said.

La Russa also said he talked to the Cardinals before they worked out Monday.

"I briefly explained where I was coming from and I said, 'Anybody felt like I should do different, then I disappointed you.' ... And they didn't raise their hand and say, 'Hey, I disagree,' they just didn't say anything," he said. "But it's very possible there were guys that disagreed. It's not the way we want to win."

La Russa also was adamant that his longtime friendship with Tigers manager Jim Leyland did not affect how he handled the situation.

"It had nothing to do with Leyland," he said.

Palermo said he talked with plate umpire Alfonzo Marquez about how to best settle the flap, advising that a quick word with Rogers would work. That satisfied La Russa.

"Tony did things in a good and professional manner to resolve the issue," Palermo said.

Umpires can inspect a pitcher on their own if they believe something is wrong. A manager can ask an umpire to check, too.

In 2002, the Cleveland Indians suspected Rogers was scuffing balls and asked the plate umpire to search for anything illegal. Nothing was found.

Pitchers occasionally will put substances on their hands to help grip the ball in cold weather. Tigers reliever Todd Jones once wrote a newspaper column admitting he'd used pine tar -- that's illegal -- when he pitched at Colorado.

"I'm saying in my particular case, in situations like that, I have in the past done that," he said Monday. "Guys are not scuffing and guys are not using Vaseline. That's a vast difference than a guy who can't feel anything and is using something to get a grip."

This episode has become perhaps the most-discussed Series smudge since Game 5 in 1969, when Mets manager Gil Hodges brought umpire Lou DiMuro a ball with shoe polish to persuade him that Cleon Jones had been hit by a pitch from Baltimore's Dave McNally.

Asked about the flap, Leyland brushed it aside.

"I'm not going to chew yesterday's breakfast and I'm not going to comment on it," he said.

Baseball's vice president of umpiring, Mike Port, said Randy Marsh's crew took a "pro-active" stance to diffuse the dirty issue. Rogers is scheduled to pitch in Game 6, if the Series returns to Comerica Park.

"Certainly things carry forth and create a certain vigilance," Port said.

Said Palermo: "Obviously, it's going to be a thing that everyone talks about. And we'll be well aware of it if there is a next time."

[nashtymavsfan13]

La Russa's restraint took guts


By Dan Wetzel, Yahoo! Sports
October 23, 2006



DETROIT – Tony La Russa just laid his stones on the table, all in for the St. Louis Cardinals manager like some Old West gunslinger who ain't interested in winning any way but his.

This is mano-a-mano in La Russa's old-school baseball world, and as confusing and confounding and inconsistent as his morals are here, there wasn't a moment of hesitation – he was sticking by them.

No, Tony La Russa wasn't winning a World Series that his reputation so desperately needed with some "BS," as he calls it. He wasn't going to get Kenny Rogers, the Detroit Tigers ace, thrown out of Game 2 here Sunday – and likely suspended for the rest of the Series – for having a big smear of what La Russa believed probably was pine tar on his left hand.

In La Russa's world, that would be weak.

"I just don't like to BS," he said Monday.

Talk is talk. What La Russa did (and didn't do) Sunday is the walk part. Call him whatever you want – and Cardinals fans wondering why their manager didn't eliminate the pitcher who went on to shut them out through eight innings and deny them a 2-0 series lead probably are calling him lots of things – but when the situation might have forgiven La Russa for bending his principles, he didn't.

He stuck to his unpopular guns. No apologies.

La Russa had noticed on video that Rogers had a smear of something on his left hand in recent games. Rogers claimed the mark during Sunday's game was dirt, but La Russa never believed that. And why would he believe the same patch of dirt would appear in the same spot on his hand game after game?

"I don't believe it was dirt," said La Russa. "Didn't look like dirt."

No, it didn't. It looked like pine tar, which pitchers use to improve their grip on the ball and, sometimes, alter its spin. It's not just against the rules; it is seriously against the rules. If La Russa had demanded the umpires inspect Rogers and they found pine tar, he would have been ejected immediately. The rule book also calls for an automatic 10-game suspension.

We'll never know whether it was pine tar or just dirt, as Rogers claimed and Major League Baseball's ridiculous "observation" reiterated on Sunday, but for the purpose of this argument, that doesn't matter.

What counts is that when he made his decision, La Russa believed it was pine tar. He 100 percent believed that he could have had Rogers tossed, forcing the Tigers to go to long relievers early in a critical game.

In his mind, he and his underdog Cardinals had this World Series all but won, a Series that would help history forget those October failures with the Oakland Athletics, a Series that would justify all those books about his genius.

All La Russa had to do was ask the umpires to enforce the rules. All he had to do was, essentially, the right thing, the thing that nearly any other coach in any other situation would do.

Winning isn't everything, right? It's the only thing.

But La Russa lives by another principle, one that would rather protect a guy he believes is trying to cheat his team than win by some namby-pamby rulebook, which has been so shredded through the years it holds virtually no weight anymore. He coached Jose Canseco and Mark McGwire, and he surely realizes his current pitchers have dabbled in pine tar themselves.

La Russa is no angel here. But he is no hypocrite, either.

Sure, he may be just protecting his own cheating players, but most managers would attack anyway. Especially since bouncing Rogers would have changed everything.

"To me the way to handle that situation was to alert [the umpires]. ‘Let's get it fixed so we can play the game,'" La Russa said. "And that's the way I went."

He just wanted Rogers to get rid of whatever was on his hand and then try to get his guys out cleanly. If he did, then so be it.

La Russa chose his own values over winning at any cost. And, as strange as it sounds for someone to fall back on principles to save a possible cheater, that's baseball for you. It's more pro wrestling than pro sports.

"There's a line that I think that defines the competition," La Russa said. "And you can sneak over the line because we're all fighting for the edge. I always think, 'Does it go to the point of abuse?' And that's where you start snapping.

"I also know that pitchers use some sticky stuff to get a better grip from the first throw in spring training to the last side they're going to throw in the World Series. Just because there's a little something that they're using to get a better grip, that doesn't cross the line, you know?"

The line in the rule book be damned.

"I said, 'Let's get rid of it and keep playing,' " he said. "That's the attitude I took. If he didn't get rid of it, I would have challenged it. But I do think it's a little bit part of the game at times and don't go crazy.

"You've got to live with yourself. It's not the way we want to win."

So now the Series is on the manager. If the Cardinals lose (especially if Rogers closes them out in Game 6), then La Russa's decision to go soft in Game 2 will be cursed by Cardinals Nation.

But if they win, if they come back and beat the favored Tigers straight up, even after showing mercy, even after taking the high road, then all the great things they say and write about Tony La Russa start ringing true.

In the short term, he just showed a world of confidence in his team, just showed them he thinks they are good enough to win straight up.

"We can compete with anyone," he said.

No BS.

Dan Wetzel is Yahoo! Sports' national columnist. Send Dan a question or comment for potential use in a future column or webcast.