Brand ahead of Dirk???? - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

sbibi · 09-25-2006, 04:39 AM

according to realgm, they ranked elton brand as the top power forward when that leaves dirk ranked second... this does not make ANY SENSE! i mean brand did have a remarkable year but i believe dirk shudve been mvp w/o A question...

http://realgm.com/src_feature/679/20...ower_forwards/

mqywaaah · 09-25-2006, 08:08 AM

It's ok... well prove them wrong. And well make them eat their words.

Five-ofan · 09-25-2006, 08:12 AM

Ummm, in a list that begins by calling tim duncan a finesse player, im not real sure that you can take anything they say seriously...

Underdog · 09-25-2006, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Ummm, in a list that begins by calling tim duncan a finesse player, im not real that you can take anything they say seriously...

Exactly...

DubOverdose · 09-25-2006, 09:42 AM

So Elton Brand is better than Dirk, KG, and TD? Riiiiight

Dirkenstien · 09-25-2006, 10:03 AM

Comical

Tokey41 · 09-25-2006, 02:50 PM

So are they ranking them from last year or predicting this coming year? Either way ranking Brand ahead of Dirk, KG, and Duncan is pretty bold. And wrong, really wrong.

Hitman · 09-25-2006, 03:54 PM

I saw that list and putting Elton Brand number one over Dirk Nowitzki after Dirk led the Mavs to the NBA finals is utterly ridiculous.

If you want to keep Timmy D at number one, fine. I wouldn't, but I would see your point. Putting any other power forward in the league above Dirk is simply ridiculous.

nashtymavsfan13 · 09-25-2006, 05:09 PM

Redirkulous.

rabbitproof · 09-25-2006, 11:37 PM

trying to create controversy, are we?

dirk's the number one stunner. we all know that.

mary · 09-25-2006, 11:56 PM

Sooo...saying ANYONE is a better PF than Dirk is "utterly ridiculous"....like Dirk is so great that nobody else is even worthy of a debate?

Geesh....the homerism is thick in here tonight.

fluid.forty.one · 09-26-2006, 12:14 AM

Mary I think it would be safe to say that no one besides TD is close to as good of a power foward as Dirk right now. You really think Brand is that close?

rabbitproof · 09-26-2006, 12:25 AM

Of course, there's gonna be some bias towards Dirk on here but what's really laughable is saying Brand is the league's top dog PF, which is arguably the most loaded position in the league.

Damn good player but the best at his position? Meh.

nashtymavsfan13 · 09-26-2006, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mary

Sooo...saying ANYONE is a better PF than Dirk is "utterly ridiculous"....like Dirk is so great that nobody else is even worthy of a debate?

Geesh....the homerism is thick in here tonight.

Yes, there is a lot of bias on this board, but other than TD I don't see a power forward in the league that is even worth debating about being better than Dirk. Brand is a great player, but he is not the best power forward in the league.

mary · 09-26-2006, 03:07 AM

First of all, it is not a "best player" list, "best career" list, of "player with most playoff success list"...it is a "best power forward" list. If you actually took the time to read the article, you woould've seen that the author used certain parameters in his rankings - they are based on LAST YEAR'S INDIVIDUAL performances - not necessarily on the performances of last year's teams. Otherwise, Kevin Garnett would obviously not be ranked so high. His team didn't even make it to the playoffs, he hasn't had postseason success, yet I'm certain nearly all GM's would say KG is a top five PF.

Secondly, Elton Brand is NOT a better player than Dirk - and if you paid close attention, that is NOT the case Bronsteter is making at all. He says Dirk is "easily considered a Top-5 player", is "due for an MVP award and if he retires from the NBA without one, it will be an injustice..."
and "is cited as being single-handedly responsible for the success of international basketball players in the NBA and with his ascension to the upper-echelons of superstardom". He doesn't say anything remotely close about Brand...doesn't call him a Top-5 player..doesn't say he's MVP caliber.

I don't think Brand is a better player than Dirk - I don't even think he's a better PF than Dirk. But it is NOT utterly ridiculous, if you are basing it on last year's individual performance (if you read Duncan's write-up, you can clearly see that is the case). But in terms of POSITIONAL ranking, it doesn't surprise me that someone like Brand would rank ahead of Dirk - he is, afterall, more of a prototypical PF - and in this regard I think Dirk may lose a little bit of ground in the positional ranking. Brand posts-up, Brand had slightly better rebounding numbers, higher FG%, and many more blocks than Dirk last year - rebounding, inside-scoreing, and blocking - all things expected from your traditional PF. Bronsteter lets you know right off the bat that these are his expectations -

Quote:

If you need a win, what better way to get one than to pound it in to your big power forward. He can use his post up arsenal, his shooting prowess and his toughness to give you 20 and 10. That is, if your team is lucky enough to have one of these players.

Obviously Dirk has the shooting prowess and toughness, but despite all of the talk last year of developing Dirk's post-up game, I wouldn't call giving Dirk the ball in the high-post "pounding it inside". Brand provides much more inside scoring than Dirk, as 30% of his scoring was "inside" compared to only 17% of Dirk's scoring. Additionally, Brand passes as well as Dirk, and Dirk has never even come close to averaging 2.5 blocks per game.

So while I may not necessarily agree with the author's total assessment - given his parameters, I dare say he is NOT being utterly ridiculous. Sometimes there's a whole lot more to criticizing someone's thoughts than just saying "Well he says (fill in the blank), so he must not know what he's talking about". Sorry, but that's a cop-out, its homeristic, and least of all - not terribley interesting to read on a discussion board.

Usually Lurkin · 09-26-2006, 05:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mary

Sorry, but that's a cop-out, its homeristic, and least of all - not terribley interesting to read on a discussion board.

mary, you're nuts

just kidding. You make a good argument, but if the author meant the criteria to be something other than the standard, "if you had to have a PF for tomorrow's game, who would it be?" or "if you were starting a new team, who would be your pf?" or "which PF brought their team the furthest?" then he wasn't explicit enough. Here you are defending his argument (if not his conclusion) and you had to make a few assumptions based on the superlatives he gave Dirk. If what you are saying is true, then he should have said, "I'm basing this ranking on low post skills."

I think the guy was making a list of the best power forwards, realized it was kind of boring, and decided to give people something to talk about.

Five-ofan · 09-26-2006, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mary

First of all, it is not a "best player" list, "best career" list, of "player with most playoff success list"...it is a "best power forward" list. If you actually took the time to read the article, you woould've seen that the author used certain parameters in his rankings - they are based on LAST YEAR'S INDIVIDUAL performances - not necessarily on the performances of last year's teams. Otherwise, Kevin Garnett would obviously not be ranked so high. His team didn't even make it to the playoffs, he hasn't had postseason success, yet I'm certain nearly all GM's would say KG is a top five PF.

Secondly, Elton Brand is NOT a better player than Dirk - and if you paid close attention, that is NOT the case Bronsteter is making at all. He says Dirk is "easily considered a Top-5 player", is "due for an MVP award and if he retires from the NBA without one, it will be an injustice..."
and "is cited as being single-handedly responsible for the success of international basketball players in the NBA and with his ascension to the upper-echelons of superstardom". He doesn't say anything remotely close about Brand...doesn't call him a Top-5 player..doesn't say he's MVP caliber.

I don't think Brand is a better player than Dirk - I don't even think he's a better PF than Dirk. But it is NOT utterly ridiculous, if you are basing it on last year's individual performance (if you read Duncan's write-up, you can clearly see that is the case). But in terms of POSITIONAL ranking, it doesn't surprise me that someone like Brand would rank ahead of Dirk - he is, afterall, more of a prototypical PF - and in this regard I think Dirk may lose a little bit of ground in the positional ranking. Brand posts-up, Brand had slightly better rebounding numbers, higher FG%, and many more blocks than Dirk last year - rebounding, inside-scoreing, and blocking - all things expected from your traditional PF. Bronsteter lets you know right off the bat that these are his expectations -

Obviously Dirk has the shooting prowess and toughness, but despite all of the talk last year of developing Dirk's post-up game, I wouldn't call giving Dirk the ball in the high-post "pounding it inside". Brand provides much more inside scoring than Dirk, as 30% of his scoring was "inside" compared to only 17% of Dirk's scoring. Additionally, Brand passes as well as Dirk, and Dirk has never even come close to averaging 2.5 blocks per game.

So while I may not necessarily agree with the author's total assessment - given his parameters, I dare say he is NOT being utterly ridiculous. Sometimes there's a whole lot more to criticizing someone's thoughts than just saying "Well he says (fill in the blank), so he must not know what he's talking about". Sorry, but that's a cop-out, its homeristic, and least of all - not terribley interesting to read on a discussion board.

mary, they are both pfs, if two players play the same position, the one that is the better player, is the better whatever position they play...

Underdog · 09-26-2006, 09:19 AM

Dirk is better than Brand - where's the debate? Oh yeah, it's called the 2006-2007 season!

[also, I think it was pretty bold of our homers to claim that Duncan might be the only PF better than Dirk - there's something very non-homerish about voting for our most hated rival!]

Five-ofan · 09-26-2006, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Dirk is better than Brand - where's the debate? Oh yeah, it's called the 2006-2007 season!

[also, I think it was pretty bold of our homers to claim that Duncan might be the only PF better than Dirk - there's something very non-homerish about voting for our most hated rival!]

Well he is the best PF of all time...

mary · 09-26-2006, 09:30 AM

Dirk's listed as a power foward because he's 7 ft and tradition dictates that you list someone as a starter at each of the five positions. Dirk fits the PF category more than the others by virtue of his height, but not his skill set. You can't honestly tell me that you think Dirk "plays" the same position as Brand?

I think the distinction is reasonable, if you're looking for the "best power foward", then you judge them based on how they fill the responsibilities of a power forward. I don't think its the ONLY thing the author took into consideration - but considering that Brand actually had a better statistical year than Dirk, I don't see that this list is any cause for indignation.

Five-ofan · 09-26-2006, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mary

Dirk's listed as a power foward because he's 7 ft and tradition dictates that you list someone as a starter at each of the five positions. Dirk fits the PF category more than the others by virtue of his height, but not his skill set. You can't honestly tell me that you think Dirk "plays" the same position as Brand?

I think the distinction is reasonable, if you're looking for the "best power foward", then you judge them based on how they fill the responsibilities of a power forward. I don't think its the ONLY thing the author took into consideration - but considering that Brand actually had a better statistical year than Dirk, I don't see that this list is any cause for indignation.

They both shoot a TON of midrange jumpers. Elton brand isnt a post player either guys. Yes he does play in the post a little more than dirk but his bread and butter is his ft line jumper. Dirks bread and butter is the ft line extended jumper. Also i wouldnt say brand clearly had a better statistical season.

mary · 09-26-2006, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Dirk is better than Brand - where's the debate? Oh yeah, it's called the 2006-2007 season!

[also, I think it was pretty bold of our homers to claim that Duncan might be the only PF better than Dirk - there's something very non-homerish about voting for our most hated rival!]

Well see, that's part of the problem right there is that people are taking the list out of context. In terms of career, NOBODY with half-a-brain would put Dirk ahead of Timmah. But again, the list is based on last year's performances, and Dirk had a better year than Timmy.

mary · 09-26-2006, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Also i wouldnt say brand clearly had a better statistical season.

So, if this year Dirk puts up 24.7, 10, and 2.5 BPG, while increasing his efficiency - you'd call that a disimprovement.

Five-ofan · 09-26-2006, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mary

So, if this year Dirk puts up 24.7, 10, and 2.5 BPG, while increasing his efficiency - you'd call that a disimprovement.

He wasnt more efficient... He shot a higher percentage. They arent always the same thing. There is a reason Dirk led the league in PER...

mary · 09-26-2006, 10:01 AM

I wasn't referring to his FG%. I was referring to his total efficiency ranking.

And if you wanted to go the PER route...Dirk did have a higher offensive PER, but a worse defensive PER..Brand ended up with a better net PER and a better Roland rating.

Five-ofan · 09-26-2006, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mary

I wasn't referring to his FG%. I was referring to his total efficiency ranking.

And he isnt more effecient than dirk hence Dirk having the Higher per. The per rating is better than the regular effenciency points thing. That said, Brand having more effenciency points is largely because he plays more minutes...

craggmac · 09-26-2006, 10:38 AM

They only said that shit because Elton Brand was on Team USA. Everybody knows the truth.

Usually Lurkin · 09-26-2006, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mary

Dirk's listed as a power foward because he's 7 ft and tradition dictates that you list someone as a starter at each of the five positions. Dirk fits the PF category more than the others by virtue of his height, but not his skill set. You can't honestly tell me that you think Dirk "plays" the same position as Brand?

I think the distinction is reasonable, if you're looking for the "best power foward", then you judge them based on how they fill the responsibilities of a power forward. I don't think its the ONLY thing the author took into consideration - but considering that Brand actually had a better statistical year than Dirk, I don't see that this list is any cause for indignation.

In that case, you are not arguing for who's the better power forward, but for who plays the power forward most like you think the position should be played. Or you need to think up a new name for the position Dirk plays, and don't compare him to power forwards.

mary · 09-26-2006, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

And he isnt more effecient than dirk hence Dirk having the Higher per. The per rating is better than the regular effenciency points thing. That said, Brand having more effenciency points is largely because he plays more minutes...

Playing more minutes is LARGELY the reason? That's a stretch. Of course playing more minutes is going to have an impact on your efficiency points, but its not like we're comparing a 40 mpg guy to a 20 mpg game. If that were the case, then I think you could say that difference in minutes was LARGELY the reason. But we're not - we're comparing a guy who played 38.8 minutes, to a guy who played 37.6 minutes. That is alone is not enough to say that the minute differential was LARGELY the reason. By doing so, you're falsely assuming that a good deal of Brand's extra production must have occurred in that additional 1.1 minutes. That is not necessarily the case. Garnett only played 38.7 minutes per game and still managed to blow everyone else out of the water.

Five-ofan · 09-26-2006, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mary

Playing more minutes is LARGELY the reason? That's a stretch. Of course playing more minutes is going to have an impact on your efficiency points, but its not like we're comparing a 40 mpg guy to a 20 mpg game. If that were the case, then I think you could say that difference in minutes was LARGELY the reason. But we're not - we're comparing a guy who played 38.8 minutes, to a guy who played 37.6 minutes. That is alone is not enough to say that the minute differential was LARGELY the reason. By doing so, you're falsely assuming that a good deal of Brand's extra production must have occurred in that additional 1.1 minutes. That is not necessarily the case. Garnett only played 38.7 minutes per game and still managed to blow everyone else out of the water.

PER is a MUCH better measurement than the effenciency rankings you are using and DIRK was number ONE in the nba in PER so yes, he was more effecient.

mary · 09-26-2006, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

And he isnt more effecient than dirk hence Dirk having the Higher per. The per rating is better than the regular effenciency points thing. That said, Brand having more effenciency points is largely because he plays more minutes...

How much lower was Brand's offensive PER than Dirk's? And my question still stands. If Dirk gets Brand's numbers from last year, and plug in what ever efficiency rating you prefer, would you call it a disimprovement?

And like I mentioned earlier, when you use rating systems that take into account the player's defense, Brand ranked higher in both of them.

Five-ofan · 09-26-2006, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mary

How much lower was Brand's offensive PER than Dirk's? And my question still stands. If Dirk gets Brand's numbers from last year, and plug in what ever efficiency rating you prefer, would you call it a disimprovement?

And like I mentioned earlier, when you use rating systems that take into account the player's defense, Brand ranked higher in both of them.

PER does include defense.

mary · 09-26-2006, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

PER does include defense.

Are you referring to 82.games NET PER or Hollinger's PER? Brand DOES have a higher net PER. Unless Hollinger has changed his formula, I wasn't aware he was including opponent stats in his rankings. Do you have a link?

Actually, that's one of the criticism's of the PER is that it doesn't capture the defensive elements of performance. Sure, it includes blocks and steals, but that's it (and even then, I'm not certain how they are weighted.)

But if you can show me something that says otherwise, I would be happy to read it.

Here's what I have from 82games

oPER, dPER, nPER

Dirk 30.1, 17.0, 13.1
Brand 28.6, 13.4, 15.2

If you're simply trying to say Dirk's a better scorer than Elton Brand, you'll get no argument from me (remember..I think he's a better player too!). But you've yet to provide anything that says Dirk had a better statistical year other than the fact that he had a higher PER. Personally, I'd be thrilled if Dirk put up 24.6, 10 and 2.5. Whether Brand is more offensively efficient that Dirk, Brand's not exactly a volume shooter. I think those number would be an improvement, and I also think those numbers would nudge him closer to the MVP....but feel free to disagree.

Five-ofan · 09-26-2006, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mary

Are you referring to 82.games NET PER or Hollinger's PER? Brand DOES have a higher net PER. Unless Hollinger has changed his formula, I wasn't aware he was including opponent stats in his rankings. Do you have a link?

Actually, that's one of the criticism's of the PER is that it doesn't capture the defensive elements of performance. Sure, it includes blocks and steals, but that's it (and even then, I'm not certain how they are weighted.)

But if you can show me something that says otherwise, I would be happy to read it.

It includes defensive stats which is about all you can do. Im not a big fan of net per though it can be useful.

mary · 09-26-2006, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

In that case, you are not arguing for who's the better power forward, but for who plays the power forward most like you think the position should be played. Or you need to think up a new name for the position Dirk plays, and don't compare him to power forwards.

How 'bout "Tall Forward"

Or in honor of Matt Pinto...the "Dunking Deutchman" position.

Or just "Bad Mo-Fo". I would love to do "Bad-Mo-Fo" positional rankings.

Usually Lurkin · 09-26-2006, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mary

How 'bout "Tall Forward"

Or in honor of Matt Pinto...the "Dunking Deutchman" position.

Or just "Bad Mo-Fo". I would love to do "Bad-Mo-Fo" positional rankings.

I'd like to see the "Bad-Mo-Fo" rankings, too. Unfortunately, as long as Jason Terry is selling more rap albums than Dirk, he won't even be the Baddest-Mo-Fo on his own team.

I was thinking "shooting forward." If you can have point forward and shooting guard, why not?

#1MavsFan · 09-26-2006, 01:44 PM

who cares what realgm says, it's not like they have journalists writing anything. On a brighter note Dime magazine rates Dirk as the 4th best player in the world. They give him a lot of praise and I agree with the ranking as well.

1.wade
2.lebron
3.kobe
4.dirk

I'll take that.

mary · 09-26-2006, 01:46 PM

That's very complimentary to Dirk, but should Wade and LeBron be ahead of Kobe?

#1MavsFan · 09-26-2006, 01:50 PM

You could argue that but you could also argue wade>kobe. Even though most of us here want to blame the refs for finals (I somewhat agree as well) but we have to all consider the fact wade did have a great finals run, and hit all the key shots and free throws that his team needed. And it's not like its wades fault that the refs sent him to the line, what do you want him to do? Refuse to shoot the free throw?

mary · 09-26-2006, 01:57 PM

I'm not blaming the refs for the finals - I didn't even mention the finals. I'm just not sure Wade has done enough to be considered better thank Kobe - either last year, in his career, or any other way you want to look at it.