Dallas/Oklahoma City

[Dirkenstien]

Looks like some things may need to be shaken up. We need an athletic big for the alley-oop option from Kidd (No chance in hell Damp or Diop ever fill that role), we need a shooting guard who can run with Kidd and we need a backup PG.

This trade works under CBA rules:

Oklahoma Gets:
Erick Dampier
Jerry Stackhouse
Brandon Bass

Dallas Gets:
Chris Wilcox
Desmond Mason
Earl Watson


Fills Dallas' needs without sacrificing future money obligations. Only Watson's contract extends into 2010 so if this doesn't work we can blow everything up and start rebuilding (uh, that's depressing). Mavs get an 6'10" athletic big in Wilcox who plays above the rim and can shift to PF or Center..perfect type of player for Kidd. Mavs also get a quality backup PG in Watson who can run a team and ignite the fast break. Finally, Dallas gets a quality starting SG in Mason who at 6'5" has made his career running the fast break and loves to run and dunk. Furthermore, he is a strong presence on the defensive end and is a decent rebounder.

Fills Oklahoma's needs: The Thunder need a quality center in the worst way and their PF spot isn't too spectacular either. This gives them a big body to work with down low and a young potential to build on with their future. With Stack they get a little cap relief for Damp's contract and veteran toughness/leadership this year to mentor their youngins.

Dallas Potential Lineup:
Diop / Wilcox
Dirk / Singleton / Wilcox
Howard / Green / George
Mason / Terry / Wright
Kidd / Watson / Terry

edit: No restrictions or any of that kind of garbage involved with any of these guys. Just trade and sign.

Thoughts?

[dalmations202]

I like the trade, but it would make Dallas even thinner in the frontcourt. I don't know how Dallas would handle LA when they played Bynum, Gasol, Odom.

Of course, I am not sure how they will play them presently either, but right now, Dirk can handle Gasol, Damp/Diop Bynum, and I question who could handle Odom/Rad. I guess Bass and Williams and JHo and Green and Stack would take their shots. I am not to thrilled about this matchup though.

Kidd, Mason, JHo, Dirk, Wilcox does make sense against many teams though.

[jthig32]

Why on earth would we willingly go back to only having one viable center on the roster? And Mason can't shoot, I have zero interest in him.

[Dirkenstien]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Why on earth would we willingly go back to only having one viable center on the roster? And Mason can't shoot, I have zero interest in him.

Why on earth do we have two centers who are slow, have bricks for hands, and play below the rim when we have a hall of fame point guard that can make an athletic big with decent hands like Kenyon Martin look like an all-star?


Also, Mason may not be able to shoot but if we're trying to ignite the fast break and use Kidd the way we envisioned then we need fast break threats who aren't liabilities on the defensive end. Mason is a very solid defender and shooting isn't quite as important in Carlisle's motion offense. As long as he can slash to the basket and finish alley oops the opposing defense still has to pay attention to him while we leave the j shots up to Dirk and Howard.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Dirkenstien

Why on earth do we have two centers who are slow, have bricks for hands, and play below the rim when we have a hall of fame point guard that can make an athletic big with decent hands like Kenyon Martin look like an all-star?

Because defense matters.

[Dirkenstien]

That's what Diop is for.

Yes there is some tradeoff there between Damp and Wilcox on the defensive end but the difference between this situation and last season's situation is you're not putting Dirk at center. Wilcox' athletic ability alone makes him a shot blocking threat and will make people think twice about driving the lane. Plus a lot of what Damp does on defense is negated by his turnovers and offensive fouls.

[jthig32]

That's simply not true about Damp.

I'm not interested in playing someone like Wilcox at center for extended minutes. It wouldn't be as bad as Diop, but it's not ideal at all.

You can't say Diop is for defense because he's not a full game player.

[horse900703]

hell no!!

[Dirkenstien]

Originally Posted by jthig32

That's simply not true about Damp.

Last season Damp's turnover ratio was 55th out of 65 centers. That means 85% of centers in the entire league commit less turnovers than he does.

Couple that with the fact Dampier had 25 offensive fouls last season while averaging only 21 minutes a game and you can see that yes, a lot what Dampier does on defense is negated by his offensive ineptitude.

[MaVs 41 BaLler]

Crap, why are we going back to the summer, coming up with all these random trades that make no sense what so ever.

[Dirkenstien]

Originally Posted by MaVs 41 BaLler

Crap, why are we going back to the summer, coming up with all these random trades that make no sense what so ever.

What is the point of posting if you have nothing to contribute?

No one gives a rat's ass about your feelings on the trade section and it's pretty damn arrogant for you to think opposite. If you don't want to read it then don't f#%king post here. Otherwise you're just wasting everyone's time and the board's bandwidth by assuming people care about how you feel.

I'm sick of jackasses complaining about trade ideas being posted in the TRADE AND DRAFT BOARD.

If you think it's a bad trade then let's hear your reasons. The main point of this board is to provoke thought and conversation about ideas that may or may not improve the Mavericks. No one's going to have hurt feelings if you don't like certain ideas but at least show you have some intellectual capability through contributing something positive to the forum; otherwise don't say anything at all.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Dirkenstien

Last season Damp's turnover ratio was 55th out of 65 centers. That means 85% of centers in the entire league commit less turnovers than he does.

Couple that with the fact Dampier had 25 offensive fouls last season while averaging only 21 minutes a game and you can see that yes, a lot what Dampier does on defense is negated by his offensive ineptitude.

You can't "couple" the turnovers with the offensive fouls, they're the same thing. His 25 offensive fouls counted as turnovers, hence his high turnover rate despite such a low usage rate.

So yes, he commits a few too many offensive fouls, but it's not like he's catching the ball and getting it stripped away all the time.

Damp had fewer turnovers per minute last season than Diop, and using the Hollinger stats you've been using, Diop has had substantially worse turover rates than Damp that past two seasons.

[Dirkenstien]

Originally Posted by jthig32

You can't "couple" the turnovers with the offensive fouls, they're the same thing. His 25 offensive fouls counted as turnovers, hence his high turnover rate despite such a low usage rate.

So yes, he commits a few too many offensive fouls, but it's not like he's catching the ball and getting it stripped away all the time.

Damp had fewer turnovers per minute last season than Diop, and using the Hollinger stats you've been using, Diop has had substantially worse turover rates than Damp that past two seasons.

Point taken on the coupling.

Still, I'm not trying to compare which center is more usefel than the other because both guys play significant roles with this team. My point is that having two centers who are offensive liabilities could potentially haunt us down the line. Couple that with the fact Kidd has made offensive and athletic big men look like geniuses in the past and the idea of having one offensive 5 on the team becomes intriguing.

Given the opportunity to make a trade involding either Damp or Diop, I'm not sure who I'd want to trade but I included Damp in the trade scenario because: 1) Salary, 2) He's six years older and less athletic than Diop, 3) Diop is probably the better of the two defensively, and 4) Trade restrictions on Diop due to the new contract.

[jthig32]

I get where you're going, and I know that a lot of people agree with the idea that Damp and Diop duplicate each other too much. But I think the organization did it that way on purpose. If either of our centers was the kind of center you could depend on to play 35+ minutes a night, then I would agree that it would make more sense to have a backup with different skill sets to take advantage of matchups.

But, given how inconsistent both centers are, it really seems to work best when you just trade one out for the other on a nightly basis, and between the two it's as if one pretty good rebounding and defending center played the entire game. I think the fact that the organization gave Diop a full MLE deal backs this theory up. I don't for a second think they envision Diop being a 35+ minute guy once Damp is gone. I think what they wanted to do was get back their two headed center rotation that has worked so well in the past.

I'm all for the idea of a *third* center that plays above the rim and has some offensive game. I like Bass, but I would much prefer our backup PF was a viable center candidate that rebounded well, along with the offensive production.

But I don't like the idea of that player being our backup center. And I think the organization agrees.

[alby]

I like this trade.

Kidd/Watson
JET/Mason/Wright/Green
Howard/Green
Dirk/Singleton
Diop/Wilcox

faster, more athletic, and we kept our top 4 players intact.

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by alby

I like this trade.

Kidd/Watson
JET/Mason/Wright/Green
Howard/Green
Dirk/Singleton
Diop/Wilcox

faster, more athletic, and we kept our top 4 players intact.

Dirk, Diop, Singleton, and Wilcox get 96 min.

Since Diop is a 20 min guy or he is in foul trouble.
Dirk has to play 40 now (he has to) -- you have 36 min for Singleton and Wilcox.

I don't know about 24 Wilcox and 12 Singleton.

Seems like a team with a good frontcourt would kill the Mavs to me.

[alby]

Wilcox can easily play 24. As far as Singleton--if Stack can play 18, surely Singleton can play 12. Without looking, I'm sure he averaged more than that in LA.

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by alby

Wilcox can easily play 24. As far as Singleton--if Stack can play 18, surely Singleton can play 12. Without looking, I'm sure he averaged more than that in LA.

On a championship caliber team?

I just think there are better options out there.

[jthig32]

Why anyone would want to give a PF 24 minutes at center on this team is beyond me.

[craggmac]

Why would anybody trade for anybody on the Thunder other than Kevin Durant?

[MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs]

Originally Posted by ua6icab7

was released in 2000 and is part of the WOW Hits series.It was a single 2-CD/2-cassette collection of contemporary Christian music from the 1960s to the time it was released. Marketing & distribution responsibilities for this title in the WOW Hits series was relegated to Brentwood Records (now Provident Music Group). The album reached #111 on the Billboard 200 chart.

Best post of the thread.

[Dirkenstien]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Why anyone would want to give a PF 24 minutes at center on this team is beyond me.

It’s not as if Wilcox is foreign to playing the center position. He plays the 5 spot at least some every game and has switched between the 4 and 5, even started at the 5 occasionally, throughout his career.

Furthermore, it isn’t as though the idea of playing a slightly smaller center is unheard of. Wilcox is 6’10”, 235 lbs and would be a nightmare for opposing centers in transition. Here are some examples of other teams who utilize smaller 5’s:

1) Al Horford – 6’10” 245 lbs, Starting C for ATL: averaged 31 minutes as a rookie last season.

2) Nazr Mohammed – 6’10” 250 lbs, Starting C for CHA: averaged 24 minutes with CHA last season

3) Drew Gooden - 6’10” 250 lbs, Starting C for CHI: averaged 31 minutes with CHI last season.

4) Rasheed Wallace – 6’11” 230 lbs, Starting C for DET: averaged 31 minutes last season

5) Andres Biedrins – 6’11” 240 lbs, Starting C for GS: averaged 27 minutes last season and 35 this season

6) Carl Landry – 6’9” 248 lbs, Backup C for HOU: averaged 17 minutes last season

7) Udonis Haslem – 6’8” 235 lbs, Starting C for MIA: averaged 37 minutes last season

8) Josh Boone – 6’10” 237 lbs, Starting C for NJ: averaged 25 minutes last season

9) Samuel Dalembert - 6’11” 250, Starting C for PHI: averaged 33 minutes last season

10) Francisco Oberto – 6’10” 245 lbs, Starting C for SA: averaged 20 minutes last season

11) Kurt Thomas – 6’9” 235 lbs, Backup C for SA: averaged 19 minutes with SA, 26 with SEA

Also, don’t forget that we would also get a legitimate 2 guard who is athletic, can defend and excels in the transition game as well as a viable backup PG in this deal.

[Dirkenstien]

Originally Posted by craggmac

Why would anybody trade for anybody on the Thunder other than Kevin Durant?

My initial assumption to this post was that you are implying talent cannot be found on poorly performing teams; however, considering that would be quite a foolish statement, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and ask you to please explain yourself.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Dirkenstien

It’s not as if Wilcox is foreign to playing the center position. He plays the 5 spot at least some every game and has switched between the 4 and 5, even started at the 5 occasionally, throughout his career.

Furthermore, it isn’t as though the idea of playing a slightly smaller center is unheard of. Wilcox is 6’10”, 235 lbs and would be a nightmare for opposing centers in transition. Here are some examples of other teams who utilize smaller 5’s:

1) Al Horford – 6’10” 245 lbs, Starting C for ATL: averaged 31 minutes as a rookie last season.

2) Nazr Mohammed – 6’10” 250 lbs, Starting C for CHA: averaged 24 minutes with CHA last season

3) Drew Gooden - 6’10” 250 lbs, Starting C for CHI: averaged 31 minutes with CHI last season.

4) Rasheed Wallace – 6’11” 230 lbs, Starting C for DET: averaged 31 minutes last season

5) Andres Biedrins – 6’11” 240 lbs, Starting C for GS: averaged 27 minutes last season and 35 this season

6) Carl Landry – 6’9” 248 lbs, Backup C for HOU: averaged 17 minutes last season

7) Udonis Haslem – 6’8” 235 lbs, Starting C for MIA: averaged 37 minutes last season

8) Josh Boone – 6’10” 237 lbs, Starting C for NJ: averaged 25 minutes last season

9) Samuel Dalembert - 6’11” 250, Starting C for PHI: averaged 33 minutes last season

10) Francisco Oberto – 6’10” 245 lbs, Starting C for SA: averaged 20 minutes last season

11) Kurt Thomas – 6’9” 235 lbs, Backup C for SA: averaged 19 minutes with SA, 26 with SEA

Also, don’t forget that we would also get a legitimate 2 guard who is athletic, can defend and excels in the transition game as well as a viable backup PG in this deal.

I'm not denying that some teams have reason to play an undersized C. And not all undersized C's are created equal. But the way this team is built you absolutely have to have someone to bang down low and defend the rim. You just do. Otherwise the defense will be horrendous.

And I very much disagree that Mason is a viable SG for this team. He absolutely can not shoot at all. I mean he can't even shoot 15ft set shots. He is a fantastic defender, but in my opinion his abilities duplicate what we already have, although he is certainly better at those abilities.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by jthig32

And I very much disagree that Mason is a viable SG for this team. He absolutely can not shoot at all. I mean he can't even shoot 15ft set shots. He is a fantastic defender, but in my opinion his abilities duplicate what we already have, although he is certainly better at those abilities.

Yeah - one Devean George is enough for our team...

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Yeah - one Devean George is enough for our team...

Mason> DG by far!

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Mason> DG by far!

Not at the cost of Brandon Bass, he isn't...

[SMC0007]

Interesting trade idea overall IMO. Would fill backup Pg and more offensive minded center that can do some things well that we don't currently have. No doubt Wilcox can play the 5. Just leaves us with can Diop step up and fill Damps void well enough and can Wilcox play solid D along with score. Would like to get a lil more from them if were giving up our solid backup PF.

[birdsanctuary]

Ican tell you that acquiring a low post threat is priority #1 for the Mavs brain trust. Personally I think Howard and Bass could be packaged with a third player for a significant upgrade at center. I like the move you present dirkenstein because it uses marginal pieces and fills the obvious holes. Jr.G has made me rethink the hole at the 2 spot. I think he brings a little more to the table and makes Jho expendable.

[pepe]

I'll do this trade in a nanosecond...Our bench will be so much improve, with a quality back up guard and two good defensive minded players (Mason & Wilcox) Wilcox is a good rebounder and certainly is a better offensive option coming of the bench. The only thing I will change in the propose rotation is to start either Terry or Green and have Mason coming of the bench.

The Mavs bench is the weakest link and a major liability

[Dirkenstien]

Originally Posted by pepe

I'll do this trade in a nanosecond...Our bench will be so much improve, with a quality back up guard and two good defensive minded players (Mason & Wilcox) Wilcox is a good rebounder and certainly is a better offensive option coming of the bench. The only thing I will change in the propose rotation is to start either Terry or Green and have Mason coming of the bench.

The Mavs bench is the weakest link and a major liability

Just wanted to point out that Wilcox isn't a defensive minded player. His impact is definitely more geared towards the offensive side of the ball. His athleticism sets him up to be a good transition/cut and alley oop candidate at the C position.