Our Summer League'rs, Our SG "dilemma", & the Hate Stackhouse Bandwagon - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Robillion · 07-22-2008, 10:21 PM

I wanted to start this thread because if I said this in one of the other threads right now it would be overlooked. I think people here should reeeally look at what they have been hoping for as of late and look at some reality... of course my opinion could be totally wrong. So let's discuss. Who on our summer league roster do you think will make the actual team and why? Why is there a SG dilemma on our team really? ... and if you look at how Stackhouse actually played at the end of the year last year besides in the playoffs, why has everyone one this board have boarded onto the hate Stackhouse bandwagon?

First off... Our Summer League'rs. Face it.. our summer league'rs this year are just not impressive. Not one bit really. Maybe I really just have not seen as many games as some of yall have, but from what I have seen we do not have anyone - that is immediately evident - that would make any type of quality contribution on the team.

I'll start off with my least favorite of my favorites... I like me some Reyshawn Terry. Or at least in theory. He is long and atheltic, plays good D, can shoot the 3 ball, and is an outstanding dunker. Sounds great to move along Kidd. But what has he showed us in SL? He hasnt had one stand out performance really, I cannot yet tell if it is just the team around him that holds him back or not. I wouldnt mind him being more accessible in the D league than him doing another year in Europe, but there just may not be room for him.

Next promising for me... Shan Foster. Watching him play I definitely believe that he just needs a better team around him and he will excel. The kid can shoot, and we are in need of some good shooting. He has a lot of learning to do, but I actually think he could learn more and play much better than we have seen on our Mavs team. I want Shan Foster on the Mavs.

Then of course there is Gerald Green. The only player I believe that will be ready to contribute on our team.. off the bench. He needs to prove himself next year. That he an contribute and be a valuable member of a professional team. In no way would I think making him a starter at any point this year would be a good idea. Not for his needed attitude adjustment at least, and that is what he needs dearly to be successful in this league.

I think a lot of people are high on Aaron Miles, Charles Rhodes, and James Singleton. Now Aaron Miles has been the stand out PG for us, but we are comparing him to McLeod. Total spare. Aaron Miles only really had one good game, and he doesnt look as good as JJB did last year (and I love JJB, but I dont think his height is the only thing that makes him a 3rd string pg). .... James Singleton, you can tell he is just not the same James Singleton he was a couple years ago. Now it seems as though he has a guaranteed contract but, I really do not see him being a contributor for the team at all. And Rhodes, I havent seen much of him play.. but regardless, they are both useless for us if we keep Bass.

Now.. onto the starting SG spot. It seems like everyone here has jumped on the bandwagon of giving a starting SG spot on a championship contending hopeful team to a rookie or another less proven player . And everyone has jumped on the... lets hate Stackhouse.. bandwagon as well. I mean c'mon. ... It would be a terrrible mistake for us to start Green. Shan Foster I think can make the team but definitely should not start. Antoine Wright I have leaned towards but he has not proven himself fully yet with us. I am looking forward to seeing him, but he was not that great of a starter for NJ whenever he did. - I think most of us agree that Terry would be best used as the 6th man playing heavy minutes at SG, but should not start. He is too small.

Now.. please, someone give me some real reasons why Stackhouse is done with and is now the super spare everyone keeps talking about? Everyone, look at the facts at the end of last year when Stack was the starting SG.
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/jerry_...ame_stats.html
He was effective. He was our best starting 2 guard for the year and I think it is too bad he didnt start there much earlier. But, then... He got injured in the last game of the regular season. So what does Avery do... start Stack again 3 days later right after Terry lit up the Hornets for 30 points. Terry's size was not much of an issue with the Hornets and he should have started. Stackhouse's injury was an issue. He is old, his body could not recover that quickly. What do you expect? His performance against the Hornets did not leave us with a good taste in our mouths for him, but he wasnt the only one that sucked it up and the other's didnt have as good as excuse as he did. Also... take into consideration that Stackhouse's best years of his career were with Rick Carlisle. He averaged over 29ppg one season!! (yeah 8 years ago but still). Rick Carlisle, if anyone, will know how to use Stackhouse effectively and get the best (that Stack is still able) out of him.

Now everything I just said about Stackhouse, the SG prospects we currently have, and the back up forward options we have wont mean much if we actually do trade Stackhouse and Bass this summer... but let's just assume neither of them are traded, and no one better is picked up this summer than what we currently have.

Can you honestly say that the SG options in order should actually be something like:
Green >Wright>Foster>>Stackhouse... like everyone keeps talking about. I mean c'mon.

LonghornDub · 07-22-2008, 10:30 PM

The simple fact of the matter is that Stackhouse is about 3x better than those other three guys, even when he's only 80% (which he is rarely above).

The other simple fact of the matter is that when fans don't like a player, they want change for the sake of change, and they don't always think it through. Guys who haven't proven anything suddenly become "much better options," even when, frankly, there's about a 20% chance any of those guys will ever be better.

I hope Green/Wright/Foster can all contribute (especially Foster, because DAMN that kid can shoot), but I think you're right on the money here. Stackhouse at about 15-18 minutes a game in the right system is going to contribute more to this team next year than any of those 3 guys.

AxdemxO · 07-22-2008, 10:50 PM

I have no problem with Stack and if hes still here he will be huge for us. Idk how many minutes he can play, but if they wanna start him then fine. I just wanna see Wright and Green get playing time.

chumdawg · 07-22-2008, 10:50 PM

Assuming the premise is correct that Stack brings more to the table than the kids (I do not necessarily disagree)...does that inspire confidence in you?

LonghornDub · 07-22-2008, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Assuming the premise is correct that Stack brings more to the table than the kids (I do not necessarily disagree)...does that inspire confidence in you?

None whatsoever.

chumdawg · 07-22-2008, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

None whatsoever.

Yeah, that's kinda what I'm thinking. I like me some stack, but I certainly realize that his production of eight years ago is...well, a thing of the past.

What I'd like to see is a hard-hitting three-man guard rotation. We've got one of those three, and I'm not sure any more than that. (Assuming we are talking about contending for a title.) The way I see it we have two spots to fill, not just one.

Flacolaco · 07-22-2008, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Assuming the premise is correct that Stack brings more to the table than the kids (I do not necessarily disagree)...does that inspire confidence in you?

It doesn't matter though, does it?

That's the reality of the situation, and it likely isn't going to change. These are the kinds of points people need to be considering. Not fancy trade fantasies that don't have much chance.

Personally, right now I would welcome Stack playing 12-15. We have zero reason to trust Green or Wright at this point. Stack brings experience and at least a little bit of basketball IQ. People get enamored by athleticism, but all scouting reports indicate that Green is basically a mental midget out there, and he'll blow every assignment you give him. (Hi Mo Ager! how you doing buddy?) I just hope the new staff will keep him on an appropriate leash. We all know how he(stack) can get sometimes.

MaVs 41 BaLler · 07-22-2008, 11:09 PM

The reason we under look him on this team is cause he should contribute more. Also consistently. This guy use to average 28 ppg. I don't see why he cant at least give us 17ppg a night. Ya he has gotten older, but he looks fine and feels great. He needs to play better then what he gave us last season. Or else he will soon be a trade piece to get someone to help us win a title.

SMC0007 · 07-22-2008, 11:13 PM

Well I think what Stack offers will only get us so far, he is breaking down gradually. To rely on him to contribute any thing other than backup minutes (10-15 max) regardless of starting or bench is not too promising for us. He did do some nice things last year but of the potential starting SG's he is injury prone enough to consider someone else.

Im not sure if the problem at that position is as much who starts as it is getting solid production from that position especially D. Wright may be the best defender of the pile of mediocrity. Really you just can't tell when a player like Wright or RTerry and for that matter Foster could catch a spark and do unexpectedly well, like others in the league ex. (Thad Young,Caron Butler,RSessions,JCalderon.)

Im hopeful that Carlisle finds a way to creatively utilize the young guns potential and have them playing with the big 3 seamlessly more often than not.

SMC0007 · 07-22-2008, 11:15 PM

DBL post oops

dude1394 · 07-22-2008, 11:28 PM

I think we should try to find something for him. He just doesnt' go to the rim anymore and he's have more and more problems keeping his legs under him. He's become very inconsistent and erratic.

We've had "defensive" sg's before, if Green/Terry/Wright can get a defensive mindset and be consistent when they take a shot, I like it.

Stack does give you some ball movement that they won't I expect. But the stack/terry "sixth man" experiment didn't work last year imo.

He wasn't good in the NO series and he wasn't hurt.. His fta's really fell off this year and his minutes were only 200 less. I fear he's done.

DLord · 07-22-2008, 11:30 PM

I'm a Stack fan. Like him as a person. Think he is has great skills.

I also agree with Robillon that the SLers have been way overhyped here (but, that happens every year). And I agree that the answer at SG is most likely to have to come from within - JET, Stack, Wright, or maybe Green who has NBA experience even if he's raw right now.

But for several reasons, I just don't trust Stack as an answer anymore. I'd much prefer an alternative.

I've gotten VERY leery of his durability. He's always hurt, and that can happen at just the moment you need him most. Even if he is playing, is he playing-while-impaired, and how is his game impacted? Old legs kill shooting skills.

In addition, even when he's healthy, his production has become very roller-coaster-ish. One game he'll light it up and you think, "Wow, there's our answer." Then the next game, it's brick after brick. I could live with the lousy games if they were rare, but gradually they have become just as common as the sizzling ones.

It's true that we may have what we have. But if we can get any equal or better answer than what we HOPE Stack could bring, I'm ready. His ups-and-downs and regular trips to the injured list have me ready to move on.

MaVs 41 BaLler · 07-22-2008, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

I think we should try to find something for him. He just doesnt' go to the rim anymore and he's have more and more problems keeping his legs under him. He's become very inconsistent and erratic.

We've had "defensive" sg's before, if Green/Terry/Wright can get a defensive mindset and be consistent when they take a shot, I like it.

Stack does give you some ball movement that they won't I expect. But the stack/terry "sixth man" experiment didn't work last year imo.

He wasn't good in the NO series and he wasn't hurt.. His fta's really fell off this year and his minutes were only 200 less. I fear he's done.

Ya if we already experimented with him last season. Why should we do it again?

alby · 07-23-2008, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

It doesn't matter though, does it?

That's the reality of the situation, and it likely isn't going to change. These are the kinds of points people need to be considering. Not fancy trade fantasies that don't have much chance.

Personally, right now I would welcome Stack playing 12-15. We have zero reason to trust Green or Wright at this point. Stack brings experience and at least a little bit of basketball IQ. People get enamored by athleticism, but all scouting reports indicate that Green is basically a mental midget out there, and he'll blow every assignment you give him. (Hi Mo Ager! how you doing buddy?) I just hope the new staff will keep him on an appropriate leash. We all know how he(stack) can get sometimes.

Mental midget is being nice.

Let's face it, Gerald Green's cupcake has a better sense of team basketball than Gerald Green.

ghazi · 07-23-2008, 12:29 AM

Let's sign the cupcake to a 10 day contract!

bradleywillcrushyou44 · 07-23-2008, 12:51 AM

in the 16 games stackhouse played 30+ minutes he averaged 14 pts, 3.2 rebs, and 3.6 ast per game...sounds like a nice starting shorting guard to me...plus he brings toughness, is a decent enough defender, and gets to the line fairly often getting the other team in foul trouble...

BigWhiteStiff · 07-23-2008, 01:21 AM

Great post Robillion
I don't think that poeple are on a "hate stack" bandwagon... but there is a "hate our options at the 2" bandwagon. Stack would be a great contributor in a SG rotation - if healthy - but when he is combined with E.Jones, Devean George, and Jet, it means that no matter which one is on the court our 2 is always going to be either old, slow, or short. Assuming that there aren't any trades, all I want is for someone under 30 years old and over 6'4 to give us some SG minutes. Surely there are 10 minutes a night for Foster, Green, or some other young guy to develop at the 2.

DevinHarriswillstart · 07-23-2008, 01:53 AM

I'd much rather read posts on potential pieces we could get for Stack versus anyone who actually thinks this team is a championship contender next season with it's current roster.

There are so many "ifs" with this team right now that it's depressing.

If Howard goes back to his old self (which one would that be? jackin up shots or defense and grit)

If Stack stays healthy...

If Diop becomes the next Ben Wallace

If Damp stops disappearing in games

If we can a consistent starting 2 guard

If JJB is worthy of the back-up pg.

If Kidd is still Kidd. (less worried but still a concern with age any way you spin it)

If Gerald Green can contribute, at all. (same with the whole summer league)

Etc. etc. etc. etc.

I guess my point is, this team's overall success doesn't begin or end with Stackhouse. He is just another if.

DavidDaMonkey · 07-23-2008, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghazi

Let's sign the cupcake to a 10 day contract!

We were never in the cupcake race in the first place.

Sorry.

jacktruth · 07-23-2008, 08:46 AM

Hating Stack. . .my favorite subject. Here are my reasons, in order.

1. When Stack is on the floor, he considers himself the best player on the floor.
2. He has lacked 1:1 defensive skills for 2 years now.
3. He doesn't have a quick release shot. As he gets older, he needs more and more space to get it off.
4. He is one dimensional (he does not go to the rim anymore), and the jumpshot dimension is just not his strength without the attacking threat.
5. He's getting old and cannot play starting minutes at SG anymore, which puts us in the same position we were before your great revelation that Stack is the man.

But it all comes down to #1 for me. He hasn't shown that he can play within himself. There are things I like about Stack. He makes some great shots and he can put on a spurt of scoring. But those great shots are often ill-advised, reflecting his basketball IQ.

If Stack is on our roster next year, I think it's fineand I'm willing to give him a chance because Avery just relied on him too much. But, if I could get an upgrade at SG for a full time starter that included a traded Stack, I would be a happy man.

So, it's not change for the sake of change, it's change to fill a hole and maybe someone out there still thinks Stack is valuable enough to trade for.

dalmations202 · 07-23-2008, 08:48 AM

Why is Gerald Green thought to be a SG instead of a SF?

I see him as JHo's backup, nothing more...in fact maybe not even that if the FO sees something in Miles.

Wright, Stack, Terry, and Jones, with the team as currently configured, will probably get the bulk of the SG minutes.

Green is just too raw to be a #1 or #2, and that is how he plays. He, IMO, will end up the #2 or #3 option on the 2nd team.

Right now, offensive pecking order seems to be Dirk, JHo, Terry, Stack, Bass, Kidd then anyone who can get theirs. With Carlisle, I expect Stack to move a little lower, but I don't expect to drastic of changes there either.

Underdog · 07-23-2008, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacktruth

Hating Stack. . .my favorite subject. Here are my reasons, in order.

1. When Stack is on the floor, he considers himself the best player on the floor.
2. He has lacked 1:1 defensive skills for 2 years now.
3. He doesn't have a quick release shot. As he gets older, he needs more and more space to get it off.
4. He is one dimensional (he does not go to the rim anymore), and the jumpshot dimension is just not his strength without the attacking threat.
5. He's getting old and cannot play starting minutes at SG anymore, which puts us in the same position we were before your great revelation that Stack is the man.

6. Turns the ball over at crucial moments in the game by dribbling it off his foot.

(brilliant!)

Murphy3 · 07-23-2008, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Well I think what Stack offers will only get us so far, he is breaking down gradually. To rely on him to contribute any thing other than backup minutes (10-15 max) regardless of starting or bench is not too promising for us. He did do some nice things last year but of the potential starting SG's he is injury prone enough to consider someone else.

Im not sure if the problem at that position is as much who starts as it is getting solid production from that position especially D. Wright may be the best defender of the pile of mediocrity. Really you just can't tell when a player like Wright or RTerry and for that matter Foster could catch a spark and do unexpectedly well, like others in the league ex. (Thad Young,Caron Butler,RSessions,JCalderon.)

Im hopeful that Carlisle finds a way to creatively utilize the young guns potential and have them playing with the big 3 seamlessly more often than not.

He's breaking down gradually and he wasn't that great to start with..

Murphy3 · 07-23-2008, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bradleywillcrushyou44

in the 16 games stackhouse played 30+ minutes he averaged 14 pts, 3.2 rebs, and 3.6 ast per game...sounds like a nice starting shorting guard to me...plus he brings toughness, is a decent enough defender, and gets to the line fairly often getting the other team in foul trouble...

He brings fake toughness. He brings a low basketball IQ. He's a guy that's just as like to get a T in a close game down the stretch as he is a guy that'll make a big shot.

He's nothing but a jump shooter now. The biggest problem with that is that he's not a good shooter. So if you're in favor of a jump shooter that can't shoot, then Stack is your guy. If you're in favor of having a guy who's temper is likely to be a detriment to the team.. Asshouse is the guy.

Silk Smoov · 07-23-2008, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

I'd much rather read posts on potential pieces we could get for Stack versus anyone who actually thinks this team is a championship contender next season with it's current roster.

There are so many "ifs" with this team right now that it's depressing.

If Howard goes back to his old self (which one would that be? jackin up shots or defense and grit)

If Stack stays healthy...

If Diop becomes the next Ben Wallace

If Damp stops disappearing in games

If we can a consistent starting 2 guard

If JJB is worthy of the back-up pg.

If Kidd is still Kidd. (less worried but still a concern with age any way you spin it)

If Gerald Green can contribute, at all. (same with the whole summer league)

Etc. etc. etc. etc.

I guess my point is, this team's overall success doesn't begin or end with Stackhouse. He is just another if.

I agree, but I think out of all of those things you mentioned above, the two that are most likely to happen is Howard going back to being a very solid player and J.Kidd doing his thing. I think we will see those two things happen this season, and I think one of the main reason for this is the fact that J.Kidd is the type of leader that can get this done.

Now, if we get Artest and lose Howard, I still think that J.Howard will still do very well, and that Artest will do the things we needed J.Howard to do on defense, except at a higher level and more muscle and mental edge with intensity. A dream to have would be for me to get my 3 yr wish and move J.Howard to the SG spot, while Artest fills the SF, and Terry comes in as the 6th man to light things up, while J.Kidd directs the crew and leads Dirk back to MVP form. This is my dream!!!! Not too far off from reality as well.

Caseman · 07-23-2008, 10:00 AM

Stackhouse is an expiring contract. So is Eddie Jones. Nothing personal, but they are all the trading chips we have.

rmacomic · 07-23-2008, 10:07 AM

I hate Stackhouse, always have always will. There!

MaVs 41 BaLler · 07-23-2008, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalmations202

Why is Gerald Green thought to be a SG instead of a SF?

I see him as JHo's backup, nothing more...in fact maybe not even that if the FO sees something in Miles.

Wright, Stack, Terry, and Jones, with the team as currently configured, will probably get the bulk of the SG minutes.

Green is just too raw to be a #1 or #2, and that is how he plays. He, IMO, will end up the #2 or #3 option on the 2nd team.

Right now, offensive pecking order seems to be Dirk, JHo, Terry, Stack, Bass, Kidd then anyone who can get theirs. With Carlisle, I expect Stack to move a little lower, but I don't expect to drastic of changes there either.

Because we need someone besides howard to guard the bigger shooting guards out there. Example: Kobe....

SMC0007 · 07-23-2008, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

He brings fake toughness. He brings a low basketball IQ. He's a guy that's just as like to get a T in a close game down the stretch as he is a guy that'll make a big shot.

He's nothing but a jump shooter now. The biggest problem with that is that he's not a good shooter. So if you're in favor of a jump shooter that can't shoot, then Stack is your guy. If you're in favor of having a guy who's temper is likely to be a detriment to the team.. Asshouse is the guy.

What is considered fake toughness?

I think he will take on anyone anytime. And probably win.. That said , has nothing to do with his BBall skills..

nikeball · 07-23-2008, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

6. Turns the ball over at crucial moments in the game by dribbling it off his foot.

(brilliant!)

7. At least 1 travel per game
8. At least 1 offensive foul per game

alby · 07-23-2008, 11:53 AM

Wait, we're now under the impression that Gerald Green (Gerald effin' Green people!) can guard Kobe Bryant?

MavsX · 07-23-2008, 11:56 AM

We were never in the cupcake race in the first place.

dalmations202 · 07-23-2008, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaVs 41 BaLler

Because we need someone besides howard to guard the bigger shooting guards out there. Example: Kobe....

I agree, he would probably get the defensive assignment.

I guess I see him as a SF on the offensive end (ie a slasher/shooter).

dalmations202 · 07-23-2008, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alby

Wait, we're now under the impression that Gerald Green (Gerald effin' Green people!) can guard Kobe Bryant?

No, but if they put Stack on Kobe, they can put Green...... LOL

Stack is one of my favorite players, but let's face it....the lateral quickness is gone with him. Maybe Green's length could........doubt it, but hey.

SMC0007 · 07-23-2008, 01:42 PM

What does it really matter, we have no one to guard KOBE! No one does, no one in the league. Artest can't stop him, Bowen can't stop him... So it doesn't matter who tries. Put the best defender on him that doesn't turn it over offensively and see what happens.

LonghornDub · 07-23-2008, 02:08 PM

Fake toughness? What exactly about Stackhouse is fake? I'm pretty sure Snyder thought it was pretty "real" when Stackhouse beat his ass in the tunnel after the game back in '04. I'm also betting that Shaq didn't find it fake when Stack decided he was the only one with enough balls to lay the guy out in the Finals after Shaq had been throwing elbows non-stop. Apparently the NBA found that pretty real too, given that they suspended Stack.

You wanna argue that he makes boneheaded plays and sometimes misplaces his emotions, thats fine. But "fake toughness"? I'd like to see what you think real toughness is.

MaVs 41 BaLler · 07-23-2008, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alby

Wait, we're now under the impression that Gerald Green (Gerald effin' Green people!) can guard Kobe Bryant?

Well i dont see many other options......

Hes already dropped 50 on us with pau gasol.

nikeball · 07-23-2008, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

What does it really matter, we have no one to guard KOBE! No one does, no one in the league. Artest can't stop him, Bowen can't stop him... So it doesn't matter who tries. Put the best defender on him that doesn't turn it over offensively and see what happens.

Paul Pierce did.

MaVs 41 BaLler · 07-23-2008, 03:08 PM

And so did raja bell....(who can forget)
Besides t-mac and kobe score way to much on us. There are people out there that can keep them from exploding.

Murphy3 · 07-23-2008, 04:06 PM

the 'fake'ness that I was talking about was referring to what it provided to the team. Him being a guy that is a hot head looking to take on anyone didn't make the team tougher. It made the team less intelligent. His anger did a better job of having a negative impact on the team than it did helping the team. That's why I called it 'fake' toughness. He was more likely to either:

1. get pissed off and get an ill timed 'T'..
or
2. get pissed off and try to take over the game himself.. obviously he's not a good enough player to do that very often at all.

That's why it's 'fake' to me. Yeah, he might look all pissy and want to throw down or somesuch.. but it's a facade.. It provides more of a negative to the team than a positive.