New Info on Cuban vs Nelson Dispute

[MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs]

By DANNY ROBBINS, Associated Press Writer 59 minutes ago

DALLAS (AP)-The feud between Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban and former coach Don Nelson stretches back nearly seven years and has some $7 million at stake. But just how ugly and dysfunctional their relationship has been is only now being revealed.

Previously secret testimony and e-mail, now in the public record as part of legal proceedings initiated in the last 10 months, paint the picture of a spat that has turned two of the NBA's best-known figures into bitter adversaries.

There's deposition testimony from Cuban in which he acknowledges that he withheld consulting fees from Nelson in 2006 because he believed the former coach had "badmouthed" the team during the NBA finals and should be made to "beg" for the money. There's also testimony from Nelson in which he describes being so disgusted with Cuban that he signed a contract to stay on as coach in 2003 only after friends "got me drunk."

"I think everybody would like to see this settled amicably, but you know how it is in a lawsuit," said former Mavericks assistant Del Harris, who frequently acted as an intermediary between Cuban and Nelson when he worked for the team.

The proceedings stem from a contract dispute over whether Nelson, now the coach of the Golden State Warriors, should be paid millions in salary he deferred while coaching the Mavericks from 1997 to 2005.

Nelson contends that he legitimately earned the money. But Cuban believes Nelson should get nothing because he breached a contract that made him a Mavericks consultant when he took the Golden State job in August 2006. Although an arbitrator ruled in Nelson's favor, Cuban has refused to pay the money, now totaling more than $7 million.

Neither Cuban nor Nelson would comment when contacted by The Associated Press for this story.

The matter is one of several legal actions currently involving Cuban, the dot.com billionaire who has become famous for his outspoken ways, courtside antics and outbursts against NBA officials.

A federal judge last week dismissed an insider trading suit brought against Cuban by the Securities and Exchange Commission, though the agency can still amend its complaint. Another lawsuit filed last week by a company controlled by former Mavericks owner Ross Perot Jr. accuses Cuban of wrongfully diverting millions in profits derived from the Mavericks' home arena, the American Airlines Center, to cover cash shortfalls incurred by the team.

Cuban's refusal to abide by the arbitrator's decision led Nelson to file suit in state court last September.

Nelson has also filed a defamation suit against Cuban in California over comments the owner made on a Bay Area radio show in 2007. He claims that Cuban, who was on the show to promote his appearance on "Dancing with the Stars," defamed him when he said the coach's demand for money was an attempt "to rip me off."

In support of his claim, Nelson has included in his court filings an off-the-record e-mail exchange between Cuban and a reporter in which Cuban refers to Nelson as "sleazy" and having "no concept of reality or ethics."

Perhaps the most revealing document in the public record is the transcript of the arbitration hearing, which took place in June 2008.

During the hearing, Cuban and Nelson gave their versions of how their relationship unraveled, beginning with their disagreement over whether star forward Dirk Nowitzki(notes) should play against the San Antonio Spurs in the sixth game of the 2003 Western Conference finals.

Nelson withheld Nowitzki, who had suffered a knee injury earlier in the series, despite Cuban's entreaties to play him. The Mavericks lost the game and the series.

Cuban testified that he had assurances from team doctors that Nowitzki couldn't hurt the knee any worse and believed Nelson was trying to take pressure off himself by keeping the player on the bench. But Nelson testified that he had a similar injury when he was a player and worried that playing Nowitzki could have a long-term effect.

"I didn't want to jeopardize this great young player's career for a basketball game, no matter how important it seemed at the time," Nelson testified.

From that point on, Nelson testified, he was phased out of personnel decisions. At the 2004 draft, he thought he was in charge of the Mavericks' selections until he spoke with his son, Donnie, the team's president of basketball operations, during a men's room conversation that night.

Cuban, in his testimony, denied keeping Nelson out of the loop, saying personnel matters were group decisions.

The hearing testimony also brought out how Cuban and Nelson remained at odds even after Nelson turned over the coaching job to Avery Johnson late in the 2004-2005 season.

Cuban testified that he learned from Johnson that Nelson had been "badmouthing" him while standing in a tunnel leading to the court during home games. Cuban testified that he then invented a "cockamamie" story during the 2006 NBA finals that NBA safety regulations prevented anyone from standing in arena tunnels during those games.

Nelson denied saying anything negative about Johnson and said Cuban wanted him moved out of the tunnel "because I was getting my face on television instead of Mark."

Nelson also described how he hoped to serve as a mentor behind the scenes in the mold of Red Auerbach, his former coach with the Boston Celtics, yet wasn't given the chance by Cuban.

"I actually thought when we split we would become friends again," he said. "That's how naive I was."

I don't think either of them are bad people, just two different stubborn people with two very different viewpoints on almost anything and everything.

[MaVs 41 BaLler]

Oh...so this is why we don't have a championship by now.

[Dirkadirkastan]

Del Harris sighting!

[cowdog80]

Originally Posted by MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs

I don't think either of them are bad people, just two different stubborn people with two very different viewpoints on almost anything and everything.

I'd lean the other way. I think they're both acting like a couple of thin-skinned two year olds. Either would be capable of ruining any social gathering if so inclined. You lock these two in a room together for years and something like this was the inevitable outcome.

I would think very long and very hard before even thinking long and hard about even considering to do business with Cuban.

But that doesn't mean he's not what you want from an owner.

[dude1394]

I've never quite understood why doctor's assertions have carried so little weight in this situation, I am sure that's what would have gotten my goat. I pay for specialists to look at this stuff and they state that no harm can be done, but some old vet dude with bad knees thinks differently and over-rules those doctors.

Prudence...maybe or as many have suspected about nellie, desirous of the underdog role.

[Maringa]

I always thought it was weird the Donnie to continues to work with the Mavs with all of this going on. I wonder how Donnie and Don get along? Just weird...

[craggmac]

Originally Posted by Maringa

I always thought it was weird the Donnie to continues to work with the Mavs with all of this going on. I wonder how Donnie and Don get along? Just weird...

My thought exactly!
Is Donnie like, "Ah Mark, don't pay any attention to my dad! He's just a stubborn old bastard!"

[FINtastic]

Originally Posted by Maringa

I always thought it was weird the Donnie to continues to work with the Mavs with all of this going on. I wonder how Donnie and Don get along? Just weird...

This has never quite made sense to me either.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by Maringa

I always thought it was weird the Donnie to continues to work with the Mavs with all of this going on. I wonder how Donnie and Don get along? Just weird...

it is a strange situation, but donnie may just be a professional or glad to be employed...who knows.

[craggmac]

Cuban may be secretly holding Donnie for Ransom.

[FINtastic]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

it is a strange situation, but donnie may just be a professional or glad to be employed...who knows.

I know that some people on this message board don't like him right now because we aren't fielding a team with Wade, Lebron, Dirk, and Howard, but do you really think that Donnie couldn't have gotten a job elsewhere in the last five years? I don't know what his value is right now, but I have to think that there would have been SOME team in the last 5 years that would have been willing to take Donnie on as GM if he wanted to leave because he hated Cuban.

You may be right on the first point that he's professional, but I still would think he could have switched teams at some point without it being considered "unprofessional" or whatnot. Hasn't Cuban extended his contract at some point in the last few years? I don't remember, nor do I really know how GM contracts work.

I don't know, I just never have been able to figure out what part Donnie plays in the Cuban-Big Whistle-Little Whistle love triangle. Just seems weird he'd be the GM for a team that his dad felt screwed him over royally.

[FINtastic]

Originally Posted by craggmac

Cuban may be secretly holding Donnie for Ransom.

Maybe Donnie is in the Mavericks organization solely for the purpose of committing espionage on behalf of Nellie.

[craggmac]

Maybe Donnie hasn't quit the Mavs because he doesn't want Cuban to sue him.

[dirno2000]

This is quite disturbing:

•The Mavericks lost to Sacramento in the first round of the 2004 playoffs. But as June's draft loomed, Nelson testified that he had no reason to believe he wouldn't continue to lead that process, noting that he had selected standout Josh Howard with the 29th pick of the previous year's draft.

On draft day, the Mavericks acquired the No. 5 pick from Washington. Nelson testified that as he settled into the draft room to talk to team scouts, he was surprised to hear son Donnie, the team's vice president of operations, discuss taking "this big Russian" with the No. 5 pick.

The player's name is redacted from the arbitration transcript, but it is clear that Nelson was referring to 7-foot-5 Pavel Podkolzin.

"I said, 'Donnie, I cannot take that Russian five,' " Don Nelson testified. "And he asked me if I would go in the men's room. I went in the men's room with him, and he informed me that I wasn't in charge of the draft.

"And I said, 'Oh, really? Well, who is?' He said, 'I am.' And I said, 'Well, it's nice of somebody to tell me.'

"And I said, 'Well, if that's the case, then as your father I'm asking you don't draft [redacted].' ... And Donnie didn't. He took Devin Harris."

Later in that draft, the Mavericks sent a future first-round pick to Utah for the rights to No. 21 pick Podkolzin – who never played a regular-season game for Dallas.

Not the whole Donnie/Cuban/Nellie thing but the fact that our current GM seriously considered taking Pavel with the 5th pick in the draft.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

This is quite disturbing:



Not the whole Donnie/Cuban/Nellie thing but the fact that our current GM seriously considered taking Pavel with the 5th pick in the draft.

Oh my.

[FINtastic]

"And I said, 'Well, if that's the case, then as your father I'm asking you don't draft [redacted].' ... And Donnie didn't. He took Devin Harris."

That part was hilarious. Although why did they put [redacted] there? It's pretty clear who was being talked about.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

This is quite disturbing:

Not the whole Donnie/Cuban/Nellie thing but the fact that our current GM seriously considered taking Pavel with the 5th pick in the draft.

What source did this info come from?

[FINtastic]

Originally Posted by Underdog

What source did this info come from?

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...2.4bd5503.html

*Edit - It's at the end the section called "Other signs of trouble"

[Flacolaco]

For some reason, I don't think it's good for anyone to have info like that out in public.

[craggmac]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Oh my.

"Oh my" is right my friend.

[FINtastic]

Okay, I know it was under oath, but are we really supposed to believe Nellie was talking someone out of drafting a big white stiff?

[92bDad]

Are the Mavs nothing more than a freakin soap opera, or are all organizations this dysfunctional?

[jthig32]

This is also pretty interesting. We already know the gist of this from Mark's famous blog post, but some of the specifics here are interesting.

… One day we were signing him, and one day we weren’t, but there was all the reality in the middle. I’ll tell you exactly what happened, because I remember it like it was yesterday. It was at 10:00 o’clock in the morning. We went to Steve’s condo. … Donnie Nelson and I.

We had all, including Mr. [Don] Nelson, kind of gotten a framework to start a negotiation from. We were going to go in there and offer him $10 million a year for four years knowing that there was a little bit of wiggle room in there that if he came back to negotiate, but that we had also agreed that he was not worth a maximum contract.

And so we went in there, and it was Steve and his agent, Bill Duffy. And we walked in, and we told him the 10 years — $10 million a year for four years, you know. And, you know, he just had twins, and we were really excited. Steve’s eyes were welling; my eyes were welling up. Steve hugs me. He hugs Donnie. …

We walk out the door. Donnie and I are wiping away tears. We are high-fiving. We think this is done. Little did we know that Bill Duffy, his agent, despite the fact it was against NBA rules, already has Phoenix in Dallas. And so this is 10:00 to 10:30, 10:45. All of a sudden I get an urgent message, call Steve Nash, call Steve Nash. I’m thinking, OK, he’s ready to give me the go, all right?

I go down to my office at the American Airlines Center, and I still have my notes … and I am talking to Steve, and he’s like, “Mark, I’ve got Phoenix in the room. They tell me I have to make a decision right now. I told them I had to call you first.”

And I said, “OK. What’s going on?”
He goes, “They made me a hell of an offer.”
I said, “Well, how much did they offer you?” you know? “More than $10 million a year?”
“Yeah.”
“More than $11 million a year?”
“Yeah.”
“More than $12 million a year?”
“Yes, north of Mike Bibby money,” those were his words, “north of Mike Bibby money.”
And I said, “So they basically gave you a max-out contract.”
“Yeah.”
And I said, “Is it four years?”
“No.”
“Is it five years?”
“No.”
“So it’s six years,” the most they can give for another team.
“Yeah, but the last year is only a half guarantee.”
I’m like, “Oh my God.”

And he’s like, “You know, it’s like match or not, match or not right now. That’s all my agent’s letting me do. There is no other, there is no let’s talk about a sign-and-trade. There’s no if only we can do this. There’s no other options. Either match or I got to say yes, because if Phoenix walks out of the” — he’s talking, “if Phoenix walks out of the room, they are rescinding their offer and you are not matching the offer, right?”

I said, “Oh, my God, Steve, I mean, you know, we told you to — we wanted you to go look for other things, but we didn’t think you would come back with basically a max-out offer.” And you know — I don’t know how long I didn’t say anything, and it was like, ‘Mark,’ and I am like, “Steve, you know, I love you to death, and I wish you nothing but the best, but I can’t — I can’t meet, you know, what amounts to a maxed-out offer. And you and I discussed that before, and we know that. And, you know, I wish you all the best,” and that was it.

Link

[jthig32]

This also:

Cuban testified about the day in January when he was shocked to learn that Nelson was having shoulder surgery.
"I'm listening to the radio and I hear ... 'Don Nelson will be missing three weeks for shoulder surgery and won't be coaching the Mavs.'
"And I'm like, 'What?' So I get on the phone and I called Donnie. I'm like, 'What the heck is going on?' And he goes, 'Yeah, just found out about it last night. Avery's going to be coaching.' "

[FINtastic]

Nellie's weird. Even his own son didn't know he was going in for surgery? Maybe Donnie does look at his dad as a crazy old geyser, which is why he can still justify being the GM here.

[jthig32]

I'm about a 10th of the way through reading the whole darn thing (although I'm skimmed some of the opening statements from the lawyers).

I'll just say, right now, that they both seem like scummy people that tried their best to screw each other over in this instance.

[jthig32]

Also..I'm not real up on coaching salary figures, but the idea that Nelli got 15mil over the first two years he coached the Mavs was eye popping to me. Some of it was deferred, but still...that's a huge number, right?

[FINtastic]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Also..I'm not real up on coaching salary figures, but the idea that Nelli got 15mil over the first two years he coached the Mavs was eye popping to me. Some of it was deferred, but still...that's a huge number, right?

Yeah, I can't say I have heard of too many coaches pulling 7.5 mil a year, especially when they are coaching a pretty crappy team at the time.

[dirno2000]

That is a huge number, especially when you consider that it was about ten years ago. I'd bet that Phil Jackson is the only coach in the league making more than $7.5MM a year right now.

[MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs]

You got to remember who we were then, the Dallas Mavericks. That's like taking current day convincing Nelson to coach the Grizzles, he isn't going to do it without a LARGE contract.

This may be the most insightful thread in the history of D-M forum. I think I'll rep the OP.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs

I don't think either of them are bad people, just two different stubborn people with two very different viewpoints on almost anything and everything.

I don't think they are bad people. However, I do think they are both whiny, egotistical, immature and childish.

[FINtastic]

I almost expected to read something about one of them getting so mad that they didn't invite the other to his birthday party.

[Rhylan]

Awesome read.

So for starters, I wonder why all Nellie's talk about P-Pod was blacked out? He must've really been talking about how crappy P-Pod was. Or was he explaining his frustration with Donnie that was later stricken from the public record b/c it would affect Donnie's standing and it was irrelevant to the case?

I don't fault Donnie too much for that, although obviously I'm glad it didn't happen. You gotta realize, 2002 - 2005 were BANANAS for drafting unproven Euros. Donnie's hit/miss ratio is still pretty good.

End of the day, I think Cuban and Nellie both deep down wish they were still friends, but it appears they have taken turns being babies. Seems like chronologically, when one guy would be nice, the other would be an ass, and vice versa. Definitely two guys who are very proud of themselves, very big ego, extremely competitive, and prideful to their own detriment and then some. I see this lawsuit as a big, expensive form of one-upmanship to some extent.

I also get the sense that (and maybe this is more his hindsight) that Nellie saw the grooming of Avery and the wishy washiness around his own desire to stop coaching as yet another calculated mad scientist move. And most importantly, had the Mavs won that title in 2006, that two year period of time with the coaching transition and all that went on would have gone down as Nellie's crowning achievement playing the matchup game. But with the coach(es) and players/organization this time, instead of players against players in a game.

Hmmm.. what else...

Very interesting stuff about the Juwan/Raef&NVE deal. Sounds like Cuban REALLY didn't want Raef - but didn't we EXTEND him? Does that make some around here feel better about Cuban's being somewhat involved in personnel decisions? He obviously did that in deference to Nellie and regretted it from the get go. See? You can't just pick a side and say one guy is always right and another guy sucks. Nellie, Donnie and Mark all have something to bring to the table and I think the things we all know in hindsight plus details in this transcript just further show that. It really is a team sport.

Obviously the Nash stuff was interesting. Although I was definitely taken by Nellie repeatedly referring to Nash as "our best player" during the testimony. Um, Dirk, anyone? Nash was mediocre at best down the stretch in 2004. But everybody here wanted to keep him on the team, nobody, period, wanted to see him go, and for good reason. And it was the communication breakdown between Cuban and Nellie that gave Nellie a bad feeling about the negotiations and caused Nellie to never get over Nash's departure. I have always bought Mark & Donnie's story on the Nash deal and I still do.

Antoine Walker must've been a real punk.

What do y'all think about Avery being the one to want Nellie out of the tunnel and resisting Cuban's request to ask Nellie for advice? Something none of us would've believed in 2006, but knowing what we know now about AJ's ego (even bigger than Nellie and Cuban), it's not so hard to believe now, is it? Particularly since we know he also alienated Del Harris.

But it does still have to make you smile to imagine Avery going back to Cuban over and over saying, "put me in boss," no matter what your opinion of Avery ended up being (and mine is pretty low). Heady days. We shoulda had a title.

[jthig32]

I'm still working my way through this thing a little at a time.

Check out this email from Nellie to Cubes after the Nash thing:

And with respect to Mr. Nash specifically, you say, "Of course, I was disappointed about losing Steve. We all love Steve as a player and as a person, but it would not have been correct to pay that amount of money to keep him."

[Rhylan]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I'm still working my way through this thing a little at a time.

Check out this email from Nellie to Cubes after the Nash thing:

Chum threw up a little in his mouth when he read that.

Although in the context of the transcript, my thought while reading was Nellie must've said that in an attempt to mend fences (and then he later said as much). I'm buying what Nellie is selling on that one.

But the fact that he was willing to say it - even if he didn't 100% agree with it - does further prove that it was a VERY reasonable position to take given the information everyone had at the time. And no one could've predicted Steve's sudden dedication to take care of his body better (which I still maintain was in part due to wanting to show Dallas that he had more than 4 years in him).

Another thing from the transcript that I forgot.. Nellie is horrible with chronology. He claimed taking Devin was a part of reacting to Nash's departure and Terry's ill fit for the PG slot. Draft day 2004, Nash was still going to be a Mav and Terry was still a Hawk.

There was also an allusion to (but no details about) some dust up following the 27 point lead the Mavs blew to the Lakers at Staples. That was 12/5/2002 (it was so awful, I'll never forget the date). In the absence of details, you gotta wonder if Mark didn't really alienate Nellie at this point by tearing him a new one for NOT CALLING A TIMEOUT OR TWO! Believe me, I was ready to go burn Nellie's house down that night and I'm not even the owner. Wouldn't surprise me one bit, and I wouldn't blame Cuban one bit either. Lots of stuff Cuban was/is a turd about, but that Lakers loss was a microcosm of what can go wrong with the underdog mentality and we all know it.

Edit 2 - DB.com's thread on this is horrible. I am eating up all the additional insight from these transcripts, I think it's unbelievably interesting if you've been following the team closely over this time. So many interesting ways to look at past events and try to understand the impact on the performance of the team and front office decisions, player moves or potential moves. I hope our thread doesn't turn into a Nellie Fanboy vs. Cuban Fanboy pissing contest.

[jthig32]

Totally agree Rhylan. Nellie did flat out claim that the email was an attempt to mend fences, but as you say, there's no way he says that for any reason if it's the completely idiotic move he's made it out to be since then.

Nellie's lawyer pretty well nailed Cuban down on the the non-payment of consultant fees. The emails Cuban sent are pretty damning. Cubes was just pissed and threw a hissy fit. However, while I'm no lawyer, I have a hard time believing a few missed monthly payments towards the end of an eight year employment automatically trigger a breach of contract allowing Nellie to sign a contract with the Warriors without permission from the Mavs. What an ugly situation all the way around.

[jthig32]

Found this interesting as well:

During that season Donnie had helped, and I think Nellie may have participated as well, Sydney Moncrief get a job as the D-league coach for our D-league affiliate. And Donnie had come to me and said, look, there's kid that were going to put in 7 the D-league to help get some experience named Kelenna Azubuke, and we really like this kid. You know, we think he can contribute, maybe not be a starter, but be a second team player, second unit player, and -- at the minimum, but lets see how he plays in Fort Worth. And we did that. And Nellie had a better relationship than we did with Mr. Moncrief, I guess, and Mr. Azubuke went to play for the Warriors.

I love little things like this. There are people on every message board that truly think they could be a GM. And they don't realize the kind of granular level professional scouting goes to. So Azabuke blows up for GS last year, no one's ever heard of him, and everyone's bummed that your GM wasn't smart enough to find this guy. And then you see something like this.

Gosh, I wish Cubes would have an arbitration over something involving Avery.....

[Rhylan]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Found this interesting as well:



I love little things like this. There are people on every message board that truly think they could be a GM. And they don't realize the kind of granular level professional scouting goes to. So Azabuke blows up for GS last year, no one's ever heard of him, and everyone's bummed that your GM wasn't smart enough to find this guy. And then you see something like this.

Gosh, I wish Cubes would have an arbitration over something involving Avery.....

Ah, yeah, totally forgot about the Azubuike thing! That's an eye opener. I always wondered why we had that guy on the Flyers, and then in our Summer League in 2007, but never made it to our roster. Goes to show that good scouting sometimes doesn't matter if someone else signs somebody first.

The Moncrief thing is weird. Nellie sort of wants to insinuate that Mark was the reason Sidney didn't stick around, but didn't Sidney immediately go to selling cars or something right after leaving the Mavs bench? Even if he did eventually end up coaching the Flyers or whatever, he obviously wasn't cut out to be an NBA coach of any significance.

[MavsFanFinley]

It's like a train wreck. I can't stop reading all of this.

Interesting stuff all over the place.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Can someone post a link?