Undercutting NBA players

[dude1394]

DLord weighs in on undercutting players.
http://www.dallasbasketball.com/mainArticle.asp

6. In the final quarter, Dirk gets undercut and ends up with a sprained ankle. The NBA badly needs to fix that problem. I don't buy the argument that this is a normal part of basketball and is somehow unstoppable, because we didn't have this happening 20 years ago from what I have seen for several years, it began with Bruce Bowen creating a dirty move, using it to take out other teams' stars, and now it's being copied from team to team. You have players you are guaranteeing to pay tens of millions of dollars to, even if they get injured, and you don't crack down on tactics designed to injure them? Stern needs to stop playing Little Dictator with his mandates about relatively minor things like dress codes and new basketballs, and fix this REAL crisis.

I could NOT agree with him more. Almost every player now falls backward on their jumpshots to keep from coming down on some asshole sticking their feet under them.

I do believe that we should assign someone to take the heat and do this a few times on other teams until they get the message that it will not be tolerated, so get your damn feet out from under my teammates.

Since the NBA seems to not mind having multi-million dollar assetts being injured this way, it appears the players need to take this into their own hands.

[StackAttack]

Meh, I would've gone ballistic on that call if Stack didn't do it to Barbosa on the very next possession.

[left texas]

Originally Posted by dude1394

DLord weighs in on undercutting players.
http://www.dallasbasketball.com/mainArticle.asp



I could NOT agree with him more. Almost every player now falls backward on their jumpshots to keep from coming down on some asshole sticking their feet under them.

I do believe that we should assign someone to take the heat and do this a few times on other teams until they get the message that it will not be tolerated, so get your damn feet out from under my teammates.

Since the NBA seems to not mind having multi-million dollar assetts being injured this way, it appears the players need to take this into their own hands.

Dude, I agree with everything except with the vigilante tatics of assigning someone to be a hit man. The owners and players need to address this. I do not like seening any one injured, on any team.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by StackAttack

Meh, I would've gone ballistic on that call if Stack didn't do it to Barbosa on the very next possession.

Excellent, maybe jerry's going to take it upon himself to send the message. needs to keep it up until someone lands on him.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by left texas

Dude, I agree with everything except with the vigilante tatics of assining someone to be a hit man. The owners and players need to address this. I do not like seening any one injured, on any team.

Well how long do you think the mavs should hold their breath while the "owners" address this? You think the players are going to sign up to suspend someone multiple games for an inadvertant slip of the foot, if you do I think you are fooling yourselves.

When it comes down to those type of tactics you'd better take care of business yourselves, worry about the league when they get the cajones to do something about it.

[spreedom]

Originally Posted by dude1394

I do believe that we should assign someone to take the heat and do this a few times on other teams until they get the message that it will not be tolerated, so get your damn feet out from under my teammates.

I agree that this is a serious issue, but I don't think the answer to this would be to add fuel to the fire.. if we do it intentionally, we're stooping to the opponents' level (although for the record, the only player I have seen doing this defensive maneuvering has been Bruce Bowen).

I think there should be a similar -- if not more severe -- penalty to this as there has been recently with Kobe's flailing arms on jumpshots. Make the suspensions incremental until players get the message that it simply won't be tolerated any longer. However, it's also very important to have the initial suspensions reasonable to protect players against accidental contact, because believe it or not, these acts are not always intentional.

[dude1394]

As dirk says

Rough landing for Dirkby: Marc Stein
posted: Sunday, April 1, 2007 | Feedback | Print Entry

PHOENIX -- You could briefly hear a "Dirk Sucks" chant from Suns fans in the first half Sunday.

First time I can remember hearing the soon-to-be MVP getting razzed like that at US Airways Center since the Dallas-Phoenix rivalry got serious.

But you didn't hear too much complaining Sunday from the Mavs about the Dirk Nowitzki-Shawn Marion tangle in the fourth quarter that re-injured Nowitzki's left ankle.

Earlier in the season, when Josh Howard suffered two sprained ankles in the span of a week in February after landing on the feet of defenders, Dallas did register some public protest about Howard not getting sufficient room to come down on a jump shot.

Here? Nowitzki argued for a foul to the refs after his fall but downplayed the incident to reporters after the Suns joined Golden State as the only teams to beat the Mavs twice this season.

"I thought he undercut me a little bit, but it doesn't matter at that point," Nowitzki said. "There was no foul called, so we kept on playing."

Asked later if he thought Marion intentionally slid his left foot into his path before turning and chasing after the rebound, Nowitzki said: "I don't think so. But I've never had anyone land on my foot [as the defender]."

As dirk says, some players actions are endangering himself and his teammates. Here's hoping stackhouse or someone continues doing it until someone gets the message.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by spreedom

I agree that this is a serious issue, but I don't think the answer to this would be to add fuel to the fire.. if we do it intentionally, we're stooping to the opponents' level (although for the record, the only player I have seen doing this defensive maneuvering has been Bruce Bowen).

I think there should be a similar -- if not more severe -- penalty to this as there has been recently with Kobe's flailing arms on jumpshots. Make the suspensions incremental until players get the message that it simply won't be tolerated any longer. However, it's also very important to have the initial suspensions reasonable to protect players against accidental contact, because believe it or not, these acts are not always intentional.

You can think all you want, but that's not getting anything done about it. If dirk comes down on the next guy and is out the season, you going to feel the same way? Mavs need to take care of this themselves imo.

I see no reason to continue playing by rules that are not being played by. Hell it wasn't even a foul.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by StackAttack

Meh, I would've gone ballistic on that call if Stack didn't do it to Barbosa on the very next possession.

Was his foot really under barboosa? I didn't tape the game and didn't see it. Anyone check suns boards for any kind of outcry, I would like that.

[purplefrog]

If the NBA doesn't address this in the next week or so (before the playoffs begin) it WILL be a big story once the postseason begins. Someone is going to get hurt. Bad! And when that happens there is a pretty good file of footage that shows the league did nothing to prevent this when they had the chance.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by spreedom

I agree that this is a serious issue, but I don't think the answer to this would be to add fuel to the fire.. if we do it intentionally, we're stooping to the opponents' level (although for the record, the only player I have seen doing this defensive maneuvering has been Bruce Bowen).

Who give a crude if we are "stooping" to the opponents level? In the finals we had shaq give dirk two elbows to the chops. Should we not have stooped to that level with diva, hell yea we should have.

This isn't some sort of morality play, this is a gang fight. The mavs haven't taken the humiliation, grief and pushed themselves to lay down and let someone take out their players, bullcrap on that.

Malone: You said you wanted to get Capone. Do you really wanna get him? You see what I'm saying is, what are you prepared to do?
Ness: Anything and everything in my power.
Malone: And *then* what are you prepared to do? If you open the can on these worms you must be prepared to go all the way because they're not gonna give up the fight until one of you is dead.
Ness: How do you do it then?
Malone: You wanna know how you do it? Here's how, they pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. That's the Chicago way, and that's how you get Capone! Now do you want to do that? Are you ready to do that?

[chumdawg]

I believe it should be called a foul when it happens. But if you close out on a jumpshooter, which I'm sure these guys are supposed to do, doesn't it stand to reason that every so often you are going to get there?

I think this is a byproduct of guys getting faster and more athletic than the court is big. I'm pretty certain that Marion meant no malice, for example. If you look at that play, Dirk should never have put that ball up anyway. It was a ridiculously rushed three (for what reason I do not know). Marion's defense was, understandably, equally rushed.

The faster and closer guys play, the more this is going to happen. I'm guessing it has more to do with the shots the offense takes than the defense the defense plays.

[dude1394]

Marion meant no malice but nor are there any ramifications for him to do what he did. None. If he knew he'd be suspended two games he'd have kept his feet out from under dirk or let him take the shot. Whichever it took to not injure him potentially for a long, long time.

[left texas]

Originally Posted by dude1394

As dirk says, some players actions are endangering himself and his teammates. Here's hoping stackhouse or someone continues doing it until someone gets the message.

Stackhouse would be our man to do it. But what you bet they would call it on Stack and make him an example, losing him for the playoffs.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by left texas

Stackhouse would be our man to do it. But what you bet they would call it on Stack and make him an example, losing him for the playoffs.

Couldn't prove it and there isn't a rule against it. So let 'em.

[spreedom]

Originally Posted by dude1394

This isn't some sort of morality play, this is a gang fight.

Maybe taking it a little too seriously there, dude.. Marion was, in my estimation, just playing nice solid, tight defense on Dirk.. and Dirk himself said it was unintentional. Just because it was unintentional doesn't mean it wasn't a foul, but there was an identical no-call on the other end of the floor that no one seems to be up in arms about.

And I, unlike you, don't feel Stack was getting revenge for Dirk. I just think that he, like Marion, was playing tight, close-out defense against a jumpshooter and there was incidental contact.

Again, does that mean there shouldn't have been fouls called on both plays? I think there absolutely should have been fouls called, because defenders need to keep better control of their bodies, but calling a kid's game a "gang fight" is hilariously obsene and unneccessary.

[nashtymavsfan13]

Good post dude1394, I posted something about this in another thread, and you and I have agreed about this for awhile now. It's a serious issue and it needs to be dealt with. Both Dirk and Jho know whats being done to them, but they aren't dirty players so they won't take it into their own hands. I don't buy that Stack was taking it into hands on the following play, I think his momentum carried into Barbosa and they like bumped into each other after Barbosa landed. I think that should have probably been called a foul, but Marion should DEFINETLY been called for a foul on his. I can't believe he got away with that, undercutting and then knocking over yet no call. Stern needs to do something right for a change and put a stop to this.

It's certainly something that's going around the league, all the players know about it and know who's doing it. In the most recent issue of ESPN the Magazine they interviewed a couple players from different sports about what the dirtiest thing is that people do in their sport. Al Jefferson said that undercutting a jump shooter was easily the dirtiest thing going around the NBA right now.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Marion meant no malice but nor are there any ramifications for him to do what he did. None. If he knew he'd be suspended two games he'd have kept his feet out from under dirk or let him take the shot. Whichever it took to not injure him potentially for a long, long time.

But this is an almost impossible position to defend. If you are suggesting to make a rule about getting your feet under a shooter, you are saying that a guy should not close out on a shooter (or be hesitant when he does). Because a guy could twist an ankle.

Well, a guy could separate a shoulder (Wade) when he penetrates. A guy could break an eye socket (Joe Johnson). Do you see equal rules about fouling a guy when he drives the lane?

Of course you don't! It's basketball. You might break your shoulder, or your eye socket, or sprain your ankle...and if you scared, put on a helmet.

Other than calling it a foul if contact occurs, I don't know what else you can do. You have to let the defender close out on the shooter.

[left texas]

Could be like Kobe flailing his arms. He had been doing that for quite awhile, but he now has been suspended for it. I guess if you don't believe in the conspiracy against the Mavs, we would be alright.

[nashtymavsfan13]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I believe it should be called a foul when it happens. But if you close out on a jumpshooter, which I'm sure these guys are supposed to do, doesn't it stand to reason that every so often you are going to get there?

This is the argument I hate most, and the argument Stern will most likely use. Bowen doing it has been pretty obvious, and it is not coincidental that both Josh and Dirk have had this happen to them multiple times. If this was the first time I might shrug it off, but it's not, it's like the 4th or 5th time it's happened to a Mav player and it's been going around the league. It's not coicidence, and make it a foul, suspension or fine and players will stop doing it on purpose and be more careful about doing it on accident.

[chumdawg]

Pursuant to my last post...good jumpshots won't result in feet underneath you. Heavily contested shots most probably will. I don't know why Dirk shot that ball. Do you? It looked like a God-awful shot as it was happening. In fact, it was so bad it looked like a shot-clock-beater.

But it wasn't. Why did Dirk shoot that three in that situation?

If the offense gets off good jumpshots, they don't have to worry about feet at their ankles.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by spreedom

Maybe taking it a little too seriously there, dude.. Marion was, in my estimation, just playing nice solid, tight defense on Dirk.. and Dirk himself said it was unintentional. Just because it was unintentional doesn't mean it wasn't a foul, but there was an identical no-call on the other end of the floor that no one seems to be up in arms about.

And I, unlike you, don't feel Stack was getting revenge for Dirk. I just think that he, like Marion, was playing tight, close-out defense against a jumpshooter and there was incidental contact.

Again, does that mean there shouldn't have been fouls called on both plays? I think there absolutely should have been fouls called, because defenders need to keep better control of their bodies, but calling a kid's game a "gang fight" is hilariously obsene and unneccessary.

I didn't see the game or the play, I'm just relating what someone said about stack. With respect to a kids game, have you actually watched what goes on under the basket? Calling it a kids game is hilariously obscened and unnecessary, there's nothing child-like about what is going on under that basket.

I quite frankly don't care about fouls being called or not, I want the practice stopped and yea if marion/bowen/dirk/stack get their feet under a jump-shooter, tough, they need to keep their feet OUT from under a jump-shooter, end of story.

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Was his foot really under barboosa? I didn't tape the game and didn't see it. Anyone check suns boards for any kind of outcry, I would like that.

If there was a foul on that play it was on Barbosa. He shot the three and when stack closed out he stuck his leg out and tripped stack hoping to get the four point play. It was the move that Reggie Miller made famous.

As far as the Dirk play, it should have been a foul intentional or not. Dirk went up and came down behind the 3 point line. You have to allow a jump shooter to land.

The problem is, there's no way that the official can look for contact up top while at the same time making sure that the jump shooter comes down where he took off.

[nashtymavsfan13]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Pursuant to my last post...good jumpshots won't result in feet underneath you. Heavily contested shots most probably will. I don't know why Dirk shot that ball. Do you? It looked like a God-awful shot as it was happening. In fact, it was so bad it looked like a shot-clock-beater.

But it wasn't. Why did Dirk shoot that three in that situation?

If the offense gets off good jumpshots, they don't have to worry about feet at their ankles.

That's not the answer, that's a cop out. Telling the offense to "take better shots" doesn't solve the issue at hand, and the issue happens on good shots sometimes as well (see Bowen sticking his foot under the two Knicks players)

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

But this is an almost impossible position to defend. If you are suggesting to make a rule about getting your feet under a shooter, you are saying that a guy should not close out on a shooter (or be hesitant when he does). Because a guy could twist an ankle.

Guy can close out on a jump-shooter, just make damn sure he doesn't have his feet under him when he comes down. That's it. Was marion doing that turn around for the rebound crap that bowen does and just so "happens" to have his feet under the guy? I haven't seen dirk/josh/devin get under players, how come? Again I don't think they are "necessarily" doing it on purpose, but you telling me they aren't letting dirk/josh know about it, sure.

Well, a guy could separate a shoulder (Wade) when he penetrates. A guy could break an eye socket (Joe Johnson). Do you see equal rules about fouling a guy when he drives the lane?

There ARE equal rules chum. It's called a flagrant foul and when it's done it's called. As far as wade get real, he fouled battier and it didn't get called, that's ridiculous to compare it. [/quote]

Of course you don't! It's basketball. You might break your shoulder, or your eye socket, or sprain your ankle...and if you scared, put on a helmet.

Give me a break, I'm not talking about contesting shots, I'm talking about letting an outside jump-shooter have his landing area, like every basketball player should do everything in their power to keep from doing it. This just helps them think harder about it. And if it makes the game less physical (and keeps multi-million dollar players from never playing again, hell yea I'm for it).

Other than calling it a foul if contact occurs, I don't know what else you can do. You have to let the defender close out on the shooter.

Let's see the NBA consistently goes back and reviews plays to see if a flagrant or a suspension should be called. The defender can close out all damn day, he just can't put his foot under the guys landing path, period. If he does he gets suspended, guess what, he'll quit doing it. And THAT is what this is all about.

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Pursuant to my last post...good jumpshots won't result in feet underneath you. Heavily contested shots most probably will. I don't know why Dirk shot that ball. Do you? It looked like a God-awful shot as it was happening. In fact, it was so bad it looked like a shot-clock-beater.

But it wasn't. Why did Dirk shoot that three in that situation?

If the offense gets off good jumpshots, they don't have to worry about feet at their ankles.

This is the NBA. When a Ray Allen or a Tracy McGrady and players of that ilk get hot, every shot is a good shot. How are you going to tell an all world shooter that he can pull up unless there's 3 feet of space between him and the defender?

[chumdawg]

You serious, D2K? It seems like an easy thing to observe.

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

You serious, D2K? It seems like an easy thing to observe.

what does?

[nashtymavsfan13]

Seriously chum, c'mon, we aren't saying shots can't be contested, the defender just needs to make sure he doesn't get his foot under the shooter and give him room to land, it's not hard to do and if it changes it simply makes the game better and safer.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Pursuant to my last post...good jumpshots won't result in feet underneath you. Heavily contested shots most probably will. I don't know why Dirk shot that ball. Do you? It looked like a God-awful shot as it was happening. In fact, it was so bad it looked like a shot-clock-beater.

But it wasn't. Why did Dirk shoot that three in that situation?

If the offense gets off good jumpshots, they don't have to worry about feet at their ankles.

Bull****. Josh has been wide open on the times when he's gotten cut out. Stevie Franchise took a wide open shot. Hell I don't know why dirk shot the ball, what was the shot clock? Did he get the shot off, if so then for dirk it was a good shot. Somehow you are going to blame the guy getting undercut? I watched bowen contest a shot and then turn for the rebound and stick his foot under the guy and somehow it's the shooters fault, give me a break.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

If there was a foul on that play it was on Barbosa. He shot the three and when stack closed out he stuck his leg out and tripped stack hoping to get the four point play. It was the move that Reggie Miller made famous.

As far as the Dirk play, it should have been a foul intentional or not. Dirk went up and came down behind the 3 point line. You have to allow a jump shooter to land.

The problem is, there's no way that the official can look for contact up top while at the same time making sure that the jump shooter comes down where he took off.

Which is why it needs to be reviewed later and action taken. IF someone wants to stop it.

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Which is why it needs to be reviewed later and action taken. IF someone wants to stop it.

That would be my suggestion. Review the play later, give out warnings and fine repeat offenders.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

You serious, D2K? It seems like an easy thing to observe.

They can't even call traveling. I'm actually glad they don't call a foul that they don't actually see, it's a refreshing change.

[chumdawg]

To me, this is most reminiscent of the NFL rule where the DB and the WR get tangled feet and there is no foul called. The thinking seems to be: If the WR can't get enough separation from the DB, he doesn't deserve a foul call.

Think about how many jump shots are taken in this league. Think about how many result in feet under feet. Only the most closely contested ones. The simple solution, in both football and basketball? Create more separation.

Incidental contact is going to happen, when you get this many pro athletes on this smal a court. We love the big hard physical foul in the lane, don't we? Well, this is the defenseman's equivalent.

If it were called a foul, would you still complain about the turned ankle?

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

If it were called a foul, would you still complain about the turned ankle?

YES!!!! This is one of the most dangerous plays in basketball, look at the point guard for NOK, he was out almost a month. Look at josh last year, another month. Jimmy Jackson NEVER recovered.

I guess I could be out of line but I'm shocked that the owners aren't the ones raising ever-loving-caine about this. They are the ones who's franchise are being put at risk.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

what does?

You said a ref couldn't see contact "down below" because they were too busy looking for contact "up top." I disagree, particularly since the contact down below happens well after the contact (or no contact) up top. It's an easy shift of the eyes.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

You said a ref couldn't see contact "down below" because they were too busy looking for contact "up top." I disagree, particularly since the contact down below happens well after the contact (or no contact) up top. It's an easy shift of the eyes.

Then why isn't it ever called chum since it's so easy.

[nashtymavsfan13]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

To me, this is most reminiscent of the NFL rule where the DB and the WR get tangled feet and there is no foul called. The thinking seems to be: If the WR can't get enough separation from the DB, he doesn't deserve a foul call.

Think about how many jump shots are taken in this league. Think about how many result in feet under feet. Only the most closely contested ones. The simple solution, in both football and basketball? Create more separation.

Incidental contact is going to happen, when you get this many pro athletes on this smal a court. We love the big hard physical foul in the lane, don't we? Well, this is the defenseman's equivalent.

If it were called a foul, would you still complain about the turned ankle?

Wow. In football the tangling of the feet isn't comparable to this because the WR or DB are very rarely injured on the play. Creating more seperation is not the simple solution, it is basically penalizing the offensive players for no reason.

The problem though is it's not incidental contact, that's the whole issue. People are doing it on purpose and it needs to stop. Like dude said, you warn and then fine repeat offenders. If it's incidental the player is warned and it won't happen again, if it isn't then the player will be fined.

The hard foul isn't equivelant either, because if it results in an injury it's usually called a flagrant and assessed a fine, the undercutting doesn't result in that yet.

And obviously, evne if it's called a foul we'll still be annoyed at the turned ankle, but at least then there is action being taken. It'll also help avoid it happening again.

[nashtymavsfan13]

Originally Posted by dude1394

I guess I could be out of line but I'm shocked that the owners aren't the ones raising ever-loving-caine about this. They are the ones who's franchise are being put at risk.

You aren't out of line, I'm surprised by it as well. This is definetly a major problem going around in the NBA.

[spreedom]

Originally Posted by dude1394

I didn't see the game or the play, I'm just relating what someone said about stack.

Um... I hardly see how you have any argument then.. you're basically accusing Marion of intentionally undercutting Dirk (and using no uncertain terms either) and being a dirty defender, and you didn't watch the nationally televised game? If you ask me -- and I, for one, DID watch the game in its entirety -- both plays in question are the result of incidental contact and good defense, not incidental contact caused by unsportsmanlike defense.

With respect to a kids game, have you actually watched what goes on under the basket? Calling it a kids game is hilariously obscened and unnecessary, there's nothing child-like about what is going on under that basket.

Uh, I guess I'll just have to disagree with you there, as well. It's still a kid's game. It's damn fun to watch and analyze, but in the end, it's a game, for crying out loud.