Jason Terry as backup PG; Roddy B at backup SG - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

kg_veteran · 03-26-2010, 12:45 PM

There seems to be this notion that Beaubois can't get off the bench consistently because he's not ready for the PG position, and therefore would have to steal minutes from Terry, Butler, or Marion to get on the court. I don't really agree. Terry was a PG here for a long time. I think he should be able to play the backup PG minutes instead of Barea, which would then open up minutes for Beaubois. Specifically, you could give 42 mpg to the centers, 38 mpg to Dirk, 36 each to Butler/Marion/Kidd/Terry and still have 16 mpg left for Beaubois.

Discuss.

kg_veteran · 03-26-2010, 02:19 PM

Not everybody at once.

badfish22 · 03-26-2010, 02:23 PM

I've been saying this for weeks. Couldn't agree more. But Rick will never do it, so its useless.

FINtastic · 03-26-2010, 02:27 PM

I've actually been kicking this idea around in my head, mainly because I really like it when Beaubois and Kidd are together out there. I'd like to maximize their time together, which means you need put someone like JET at point for the minutes that Kidd is out. I'd be all for this.

jthig32 · 03-26-2010, 02:28 PM

It seems like a good idea, but I honestly think Jet's time playing PG for the Mavericks is absolutely done. One of the first things Carlisle did when he got here was move Jet to SG permanently and he hasn't wavered since.

chumdawg · 03-26-2010, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

It seems like a good idea, but I honestly think Jet's time playing PG for the Mavericks is absolutely done. One of the first things Carlisle did when he got here was move Jet to SG permanently and he hasn't wavered since.

Good move, too. Just because Terry has played PG here before doesn't mean it's a good idea for him to do it again.

LonghornDub · 03-26-2010, 02:45 PM

I'm kinda torn on this one. On the one hand, I agree with chum--Terry played PG in the past basically out of necessity. At the time, the other option was Harris, who was still raw and a nice scorer but was an ineffective passer.

At the same time, Jet certainly had some nice moments at PG, especially running the two-man game with Dirk constantly.

I really think JJB is fine as a backup PG in limited minutes, but I don't see the point in the Kidd + JJB backcourt. The two PG's are Kidd and JJB, and the three SG's (for now) are Butler, Terry, and Roddy. I think there should be one guy from each of those categories on the court 90% of the time.

jthig32 · 03-26-2010, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Good move, too. Just because Terry has played PG here before doesn't mean it's a good idea for him to do it again.

I go back and forth. I think it's easy to forget how frustrating it was to watch Dirk fight for position in the post and never be able to get the ball. We take Kidd's less-obvious talents for granted sometimes I think.

On the other hand I feel like Jet's ball distribution has gotten better over the last few years, and we play so much isolation that I really wonder if it wouldn't work for short stretches.

badfish22 · 03-26-2010, 02:46 PM

Just because it worked once, doesn't mean we should ever go back to it again, even in a backup role, even if we desperately need a PG

Roddy and Terry would be enough ball handling to survive for 8-10 minutes a game.

jthig32 · 03-26-2010, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I really think JJB is fine as a backup PG in limited minutes, but I don't see the point in the Kidd + JJB backcourt. The two PG's are Kidd and JJB, and the three SG's (for now) are Butler, Terry, and Roddy. I think there should be one guy from each of those categories on the court 90% of the time.

Yup. This is exactly how I feel. I'm fine with JJ playing backup PG. I'm not ok with JJ playing SG next to Kidd while Roddy gets a DNP. Not after all we've seen from Roddy recently.

kg_veteran · 03-26-2010, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Good move, too. Just because Terry has played PG here before doesn't mean it's a good idea for him to do it again.

Why is it a good move?

The alternative at backup PG, apparently, is Barea. The stats (and just watching the games) say that Barea is a negative, offensively and defensively. When Terry played PG here, he was a big net positive at the position. Even if he were just break-even, he would be much better than Barea.

kg_veteran · 03-26-2010, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I'm kinda torn on this one. On the one hand, I agree with chum--Terry played PG in the past basically out of necessity. At the time, the other option was Harris, who was still raw and a nice scorer but was an ineffective passer.

At the same time, Jet certainly had some nice moments at PG, especially running the two-man game with Dirk constantly.

I really think JJB is fine as a backup PG in limited minutes, but I don't see the point in the Kidd + JJB backcourt. The two PG's are Kidd and JJB, and the three SG's (for now) are Butler, Terry, and Roddy. I think there should be one guy from each of those categories on the court 90% of the time.

But why should Fool's Gold play at all? I don't see a single important thing that he can do better than Terry.

LonghornDub · 03-26-2010, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

But why should Fool's Gold play at all? I don't see a single important thing that he can do better than Terry.

He is a considerably better dribbler and penetrates a lot better. Maybe that's not worth it given his lack of height and defensive deficiencies, but Terry certainly had his trouble at the point as well. He had no idea what to do with the ball in his hands for most of that GS series--just pound away near midcourt for 15 seconds and then hope something would happen.

chumdawg · 03-26-2010, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

The stats (and just watching the games) say that Barea is a negative, offensively and defensively. When Terry played PG here, he was a big net positive at the position.

I disagree you about the "watching the games" part. But if you are right about the stats...why would anyone have ever, ever, ever thought it was a good to replace a "big net positive" with a negative? That doesn't make any sense, KG.

DevinHarriswillstart · 03-26-2010, 03:13 PM

There are a lot more things wrong than right at the moment. If Terry can't come back fully from injury, then this might be another heart breaker of a season. I'm not sure I could see Terry calling plays with that thing on his face. He can't even get his own game going at the moment. Switching him to pg would probably make it even more difficult. Let him find his rhythm first...

Wish I had more to contribute to these boards lately, but I'm just kind of at a loss for words with this team. My opinion of Carlisle is certainly on decline. Does he get the boot if the team blows it again? I certainly would like to see at least the assistants get the boot minus maybe Casey...although Mr. Defensive Coordinator isn't doing his job lately.....This is of course if the Mavs can't get out of at least the first round. Ugh, with the way they are playing right now....

kg_veteran · 03-26-2010, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

He is a considerably better dribbler and penetrates a lot better. Maybe that's not worth it given his lack of height and defensive deficiencies, but Terry certainly had his trouble at the point as well. He had no idea what to do with the ball in his hands for most of that GS series--just pound away near midcourt for 15 seconds and then hope something would happen.

A considerably better dribbler -- I guess that would be more important to me if Terry was turnover prone, but he's not.

Penetration -- I'll grant you that he is better at getting around his man, but I don't think that ends up helping the team all that much. Teams have figured out his game, and the nights when he makes a positive impact are few and far between.

kg_veteran · 03-26-2010, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I disagree you about the "watching the games" part.

Okay, what is it that you see when you watch the games that makes you believe that Barea is a net positive for this team?

chumdawg · 03-26-2010, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

Okay, what is it that you see when you watch the games that makes you believe that Barea is a net positive for this team?

Take last night for instance. He comes in the game and almost immediately finds Marion underneath for a dunk. (Which I'm pretty sure was our first points in the paint for a good stretch there.) And simultaneously the furor rose from the crowd in the GDT about why he's even in the game in the first place.

The guy makes plays. He puts the ball in the right place. He fairly regularly takes it to the basket himself. He has a good three-point stroke. He protects the ball pretty well, for the most part. He scraps on defense. Though he is limited physically, he is almost always in the right place. He does a good job of drawing charges.

I guess I should turn it back to you: What do you see when you watch the games that makes you think he is hurting the team?

badfish22 · 03-26-2010, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

What do you see when you watch the games that makes you think he is hurting the team?

Are.....are you serious?

Its Friday, I don't feel like writing a novel.

dirno2000 · 03-26-2010, 05:32 PM

I've tried to avoid the whole Barrea debate so I'll take this angle. Terry, a perennial 6th man of the year candidate went down for five games. While he was out Roddy replaced his 17 points a game and shot over 50% in the process. A week or so later he's back to getting DNP-CD's. That doesn't make much sense to me.

Don't know if we can still use PER after the big Hollinger debate

but based on that measure Roddy is our 3rd best player behind Dirk and Kidd. I understand that efficiency tends to drop as useage goes up and that could very well be the case here but I think he's earned the chance to prove he's over his head.

Barea doesn't suck or anything. He's actually done quite well with what he has. The problem is the NBA game has been structured and is officiated to reward size and athleticism and he has neither.

Jet played PG in this league for what, seven years? He can handle 12 minutes a night.

dude1394 · 03-26-2010, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

I've tried to avoid the whole Barrea debate so I'll take this angle. Terry, a perennial 6th man of the year candidate went down for five games. While he was out Roddy replaced his 17 points a game and shot over 50% in the process. A week or so later he's back to getting DNP-CD's. That doesn't make much sense to me.

Don't know if we can still use PER after the big Hollinger debate

but based on that measure Roddy is our 3rd best player behind Dirk and Kidd. I understand that efficiency tends to drop as useage goes up and that could very well be the case here but I think he's earned the chance to prove he's over his head.

Barea doesn't suck or anything. He's actually done quite well with what he has. The problem is the NBA game has been structured and is officiated to reward size and athleticism and he has neither.

Jet played PG in this league for what, seven years? He can handle 12 minutes a night.

I'm having to agree with the idea of roddy getting some time. In fact there was a bout 5-8 minutes where jjb/jkiddo played together that would have been perfect....or have jjb/roddy play together a little bit. But I am starting to question RC on this one, it's not making much sense.

But I'm not interested in jet playing point.

FreshJive · 03-27-2010, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

I've tried to avoid the whole Barrea debate so I'll take this angle. Terry, a perennial 6th man of the year candidate went down for five games. While he was out Roddy replaced his 17 points a game and shot over 50% in the process. A week or so later he's back to getting DNP-CD's. That doesn't make much sense to me.

Don't know if we can still use PER after the big Hollinger debate

but based on that measure Roddy is our 3rd best player behind Dirk and Kidd. I understand that efficiency tends to drop as useage goes up and that could very well be the case here but I think he's earned the chance to prove he's over his head.

Barea doesn't suck or anything. He's actually done quite well with what he has. The problem is the NBA game has been structured and is officiated to reward size and athleticism and he has neither.

Jet played PG in this league for what, seven years? He can handle 12 minutes a night.

I agree with all of this. Although they are still going to have big problems on defense.

tony320 · 03-27-2010, 04:11 AM

I did not do the insanity in 60 days, like they say. I finished in just over 70 day, but you know what I got out of it. I learned that Shaun T is insanity workout review, but the guy knows what he is doing to get your body to that place where its trimmed, toned and looking great.

You should tackle the problem of how to get rid of fruit flies by discarding all the overripe or rotten fruit. If you have opened any fruit juice or vinegar container, make sure you seal them up properly again.

tcat075 · 03-27-2010, 11:21 AM

I would like to see Terry at backup point guard. You'll have to make sure you have either Dirk or Butler on the floor with him, imo, in that role, but it should work. What I don't want to see is a JET/Stevenson/Marion/Najera/Dampier type lineup...that would be a disaster. I wouldn't trust Terry in that type of situation, but as long as he has an iso player that he can give it to on half the possessions, I think he'll be good.

sefant77 · 03-27-2010, 08:24 PM

Right now i just want that we play good defense again, we have to go back there.

But this wont happen right now with Barea on the court. He just cant play any defense. Right now i would even consider giving him a DNP and play Rodd and Stevenson over him, just so we can work out our defense. I prefer to win ugly games 80-78.

Kidd/Terry/Roddy
Butler/Terry/Roddy/Stevenson

Enough to fill the backcourt minutes

MavsFTR · 03-27-2010, 10:22 PM

I dunno.... I prefer the idea of Kidd playing with Terry on the court since it seems he can't create for himself.

aurelino9 · 03-28-2010, 01:14 PM

Barea is horrible but he still runs plays better than Terry and Roddy.

I posted this rotation in the other thread:
First quarter
Kidd/Butler: first 7:00 minutes
Kidd/Roddy: last 5:00 minutes
Second quarter
Barea/Terry: first 4 minutes
Terry/Roddy: next 3 minutes
Kidd/Butler: final 5.
---
This will substantially reduce Terry's minutes.

The fact is that if Kidd, Butler and Terry play close to 35 mpg each, there's hardly any minutes
to be had in the backcourt. The problem is that when Kidd sits there's no one to run the offense well and Carlisle has chosen Barea to do so for those 11-12 minutes.

sefant77 · 03-28-2010, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aurelino9

Barea is horrible but he still runs plays better than Terry and Roddy.

Barea is an expert in dribbling down the shotclock to 5-7 seconds without gaining anything and then passing the ball to someone that has to take a desperation shot. His drive and dish also isnt really bread and butter. He cant finish the layup in a great way and he is always good for a bonehead turnover.

Yes, at defense he knows the rotation etc better than Roddy but what is the point that Barea knows the rotation? It means crap because even if he is "there" any scrub can shoot over him or drive by him. I give Roddy the 2-3 times in a game that he get lost during the rotation. His defense is still 10 times better than Bareas.

Yes, Barea knows the system better. Roddy still beats him kind of everywhere. Kind of sad for Barea...

Barea/Terry is FAILURE. Thats the minutes the other team always make the run or come back from -10 in a few minutes and building the momentum. I not even wanna see 4min/game of that.

Popeye · 03-28-2010, 01:30 PM

I personally think Roddy can play backup PG just fine. However, we KNOW Terry can play PG effectively so there's no excuse to keep playing JJB (and thus keeping Roddy on the bench).

It's going to happen though. I'd put the over/under on Roddy's minutes against Denver at 5. JJB will get 20+.

aurelino9 · 03-28-2010, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

Barea is an expert in dribbling down the shotclock to 5-7 seconds without gaining anything and then passing the ball to someone that has to take a desperation shot. His drive and dish also isnt really bread and butter. He cant finish the layup in a great way and he is always good for a bonehead turnover.

Yes, at defense he knows the rotation etc better than Roddy but what is the point that Barea knows the rotation? It means crap because even if he is "there" any scrub can shoot over him or drive by him. I give Roddy the 2-3 times in a game that he get lost during the rotation. His defense is still 10 times better than Bareas.

Yes, Barea knows the system better. Roddy still beats him kind of everywhere. Kind of sad for Barea...

Barea/Terry is FAILURE. Thats the minutes the other team always make the run or come back from -10 in a few minutes and building the momentum. I not even wanna see 4min/game of that.

Like I said elsewhere, if Terry is playing PG, he needs Dirk to be in the game so they can run Isos/two-man-game. I think it was the game before in which Terry had two turonvers when he had the ball on the last possessions of quarters. I'd rather have Roddy run the offense than Terry.
I don't like JJB either but I am sure the only reason Carlisle plays him is because no one else has been clearly better in practices.

FreshJive · 03-28-2010, 02:05 PM

I'm probably the only one who thinks this, but if Roddy's minutes must come at the 2 then it should be at the expense of Butler. Make Butler split time at the 3 with Marion or possibly play some 4 in a small lineup.

Kidd Barea
Roddy Terry
Marion Butler
Dirk Marion
Haywood Damp