What are yout thoughts on the trade of Harris for Kidd now?

[92bDad]

hmmm with time to look back and dream of the future, there is nothing like watching the hear and now to think about past trades.

What do the folks here at DM think of that trade of Harris for Kidd now?

[Cerrakin]

Well, we sure as hell wouldn't be 1 game from the finals with Harris still here.

[DallasMavericksIn2011]

It didn't pay dividends until this season, I'll say that much. But if we can win the championship, it was definitely a win.

[mavs777]

too early to judge the trade still, it was a plus for short term probably a loss long term

[pkdumas]

The Kidd trade has clearly showed itself to be worthwhile. In the long term, we are essentially talking post-Dirk anyway, so who cares about that right now? It was the right trade at the right time. Just as important, the head coach change...

When you think about clutch situations, look at the body language of Carlisle + Kidd compared to Avery + Devin. I have no hate for Avery or Devin, but while those guys would flail and holler, the "new brains" stare straight through you with the calm of destined warriors.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Ask me again when the finals are over.

[Thespiralgoeson]

In all seriousness though, within the context of the 2007-2008 season, if I were running the Mavs, I would still not make that trade. Before people jump down my throat telling me how amazing J-Kidd is, and how injury prone and generally worthless Devin Harris is, let me be clear that my issues with that trade were never that I thought Devin Harris was the right PG for the Mavs or even that I thought he was necessarily better than Kidd. Rather, I thought that the Mavs had glaring holes in other parts on the roster and addressing them should've been the top priority; we badly needed a shooting guard (still do, 4 years later. Not to mention our idiot coach; he should've been replaced first before any other moves were made.) I was never opposed to the idea of trading Devin Harris- I just didn't think he should've been traded for a 35 year old Jason Kidd. If I were an NBA GM, I don't think I'd ever be very comfortable trading a 25 year old player for a 35 year old player no matter how much better the 35 year old might be, especially when you're trading for the same position and not addressing the other bigger problems on your roster.

Simply put, I think there were better moves to be made. Again, I'm not necessarily arguing Harris vs. Kidd. The long-term implications of a trade are considerably more complicated than "Player A vs Player B." I'm merely saying that the Mavs' resources could have been put to better use. Case in point; Devin Harris was recently involved in a trade for Deron Williams... Deron freaking Williams. Now, I'm not saying that the Mavs would've landed D-Will, because that move also took 2 first rounders and another young promising player, but it's certainly not inconceivable that the Mavs, with some clever maneuvering, might have pulled off a similar deal. It's certainly not that far-fetched to think that the Mavs could have traded Harris for another "impact player" that could help carry the team into the future.

All that being said, I clearly overreacted at the time when I called the move a "franchise killer." And I also seriously underestimated how much J-Kidd had left in the tank. I never imagined he had a playoff run like this left in him. If the Mavs do end up winning the championship, I'll eat all the crow in the world, and I'll love it.

[rabbitproof]

Good point, Tsgn. The question can be twisted into: Deron Williams vs. "How far the Mavs get this offseason".

If the Mavs win NBA title, it's an easy W. If not, and the lockout goes into effect, it will be hard to not look at Deron Williams for the next 5 years and wonder a little bit.

[wilmtalk]

Thespiral-- Makes good points. I also was one that was not happy with the trade especially after it became apparent that Kidd no longer had the ability to drive to the hoop. I wanted Kidd traded for Jose Howard. I felt that the Kidd was still an asset but not with the players that the Mavs had at the time. The first rounders also were a roadblock to getting the players neccessary to maximize Kidds talents. Actually the Mavs were fortunate to fill the team with Kidd friendly players. Chandler being the major piece.

It took a while for the Mavs to accomplish surrounding Kidd with players to not only make his skills valuable but to also compensate for his deficiancys. It wasn't only until recently that Kidd adjusted to the team and Dirk. It all came together. But it is not to say that it couldn't have also happened earlier and easier if the trade wasn't made. The years when the Mavs had problems with the guards was a partial result of having to compensate at the two for Kidds lack of penitration and defensive libility against the quicker guards. That defensive libility aspect was solved by Chandler who is probably the best help center in the league. If the mavs don't get Chandler we are not here right now. Now considering the sequence of events that was necessary for him to end up here. The mavs finally got some breaks.

I present that if Kidd doesn't end up here the only major libility remaining was Dampier. It might have been easier to build on that team as it was to restructure it in the way it has become. Also the team would have been younger and the rebuilding not as difficult in the future. Or better yet Kidd traded for JH and that would have put Kidd on the floor with DH and each would have compensated for the others shortcomings. Kidd would have essentially played as a playmaking two with DH as the driving point who could have taken the quicker points on D while learning the point position from Kidd.

Trading Kidd for JH would have been a plus for Dallas in that he was over rated and his trade value at the time was really high. We could have even gotten a pick from the Nets instead of giving them our picks. I think with this move Dallas would have gotten back to the finals much sooner. So I always and still think Kidd for DH was a bad move but a Kidd for JH would have been excellent on many levels.because JH was at his optimum value where as DH was at his lowest. Sell high- buy low.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by wilmtalk

Thespiral-- Makes good points. I also was one that was not happy with the trade especially after it became apparent that Kidd no longer had the ability to drive to the hoop. I wanted Kidd traded for Jose Howard. I felt that the Kidd was still an asset but not with the players that the Mavs had at the time. The first rounders also were a roadblock to getting the players neccessary to maximize Kidds talents. Actually the Mavs were fortunate to fill the team with Kidd friendly players. Chandler being the major piece.

It took a while for the Mavs to accomplish surrounding Kidd with players to not only make his skills valuable but to also compensate for his deficiancys. It wasn't only until recently that Kidd adjusted to the team and Dirk. It all came together. But it is not to say that it couldn't have also happened earlier and easier if the trade wasn't made. The years when the Mavs had problems with the guards was a partial result of having to compensate at the two for Kidds lack of penitration and defensive libility against the quicker guards. That defensive libility aspect was solved by Chandler who is probably the best help center in the league. If the mavs don't get Chandler we are not here right now. Now considering the sequence of events that was necessary for him to end up here. The mavs finally got some breaks.

I'm not sure I agree I agree with trading Howard for Kidd, but I understand where your coming from and I think the rest of this is spot on. The problem I had with the trade was that it did not address the fatal flaws that the roster had. Indeed, it created a whole new problem; the inability to penetrate the opposing defense, as well as defend speedy high-scoring point guards.

Furthermore, you hit the nail on the head about Chandler. If the Mavs don't trade for Chandler, the Mavs probably lose in the first round again and we're not having this conversation. Not to take anything away from Kidd and what he's done this postseason, but the Dampier/Chandler trade of this season is the one that's most responsible for our serendipitous, miraculous, and entirely unexpected title run- not the Harris/Kidd trade that happened over three years ago. IMO, the Mavs could have made any number of moves that would have gotten them closer to a championship in those subsequent years rather than getting trounced in the first round 2 out of three years (the lone win being against a Ginobili-less Spurs team which was followed by a thorough ass-beating by the Nuggets.)

All that being said, if the question is merely if I would prefer Harris or Kidd for this current title run, then give me Kidd. If you'd asked me before this OKC series, I wouldn't have said so, but the dude has just been the epitome of clutch in this series (not to say he wasn't clutch against the Blazers or Lakers, but his defense in the last game against OKC was what finally did it for me.)

[Ninkobei]

I akin the trade to the Rangers trading young future all-star Justin Smoak for Cliff Lee. Hell yeah it was worth it for that one trip to the championship alone.

Now, Justin Smoak is probably a much better player than D Harris, so the Rangers deal, while still acceptable, was a worse deal than the Mavs got.

If that trade was worth it, the Dallas trade was worth it. The Mavs dont make it this far without Kidd. Period.

[JeffViggiano]

Originally Posted by mavs777

too early to judge the trade still, it was a plus for short term probably a loss long term

this

[dude1394]

IMO the most significant part of that trade was finally getting rid of Avery... Unfortunately IT should have been the first move.

[Blackspider]

Originally Posted by dude1394

IMO the most significant part of that trade was finally getting rid of Avery... Unfortunately IT should have been the first move.

Agrees. Avery was a big problem for this team. Never was a fan of his at all. And when we played down to Golden State in 07 and adjusted our roster to them as the #1 overall seed, that's when I was completely done with him.

[dude1394]

Can you imagine Carlisle changing hotel rooms in Miami to get the teams attention? So inexperienced.. went back and looked at some of the avery post-game meltdowns...wow...

[jthig32]

A couple of national bloggers posted thoughts about this very thing yesterday, and I responded to both of them on Twitter with a condensed version of my thoughts, which are:

There is absolutely no question that the Mavs gave up too much in that trade. It should not have cost them two first round picks, and it should not have cost them Diop. That's an overlooked part of the trade. For some reason the Mavs were forced to include Diop, so next season when they made the horrible decision to re-sign him for five years, they had to use their entire MLE.

But there's also absolutely no question that Kidd is a better fit on this team than Harris, for a variety of reasons. More than anything else though, it's because this team has played Jet at SG for the last five years. And there aren't many people other than Kidd in the entire NBA (possibly no one) that give you the kind of defensive flexibility to allow you to play Jet for 35 minutes at SG every night.

Certainly you can make the argument that a SG would have been a better acquisition, but with what trade piece? Devin was the major trade piece, so you had to find a PG somewhere if you traded him for a SG. By trading for Kidd you basically created a SG in Jet. And that hasn't been ideal over the years, but I think a lot of us (notice the inclusion) have taken Jet's contributions for granted over these past few years. Not without cause, because he's been pretty bad in the playoffs. But the acquisition of Kidd has allowed this roster a ton of flexibility, from how Jet gets his minutes to how much JJB can play, and even how much Roddy played last season. None of that would be the same with a normal sized PG.

And as I've mentioned previously, from a selfish standpoint it's incredibly satisfying to watch the first athlete I ever cared about find some level of playoffs success next to Dirk, who will be my favorite athlete from now until I die.

[SMC0007]

I'll save my awesome post for the return of "we should have kept Nash" thread.

[alexamenos]

Should Pete Rose be in the Hall of Fame?

[MaverickOutlaw]

Harris still also has flaws in his game at times. I think he has never stepped up to the big time yet. Mavs got a hall of fame point guard for a guy who still has never amounted to greatness. Harris in his career all ready been with 3 teams.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Harris's injuries continue to be the main thing holding him back to his full potential. The kid has a ton of talent, but no jump shot and injury-prone become hard to live with. It almost seems like he is regressing because of the injuries. And he's not THAT young anymore to keep dealing with them.

Having Roddy for the future eased the blow a bit for me. Plus, I definitely underestimated Kidd's BBIQ. That really does mean something....especially when the playoffs come around. He knows his limitations and maximizes what he can still do.

[Axilla]

same as i thought when it happened...

sad to lose devin. but we're actually just getting an upgrade with significantly less upside.

i wanted a championship this year. its always about this year

[dude1394]

We should have just stuck with Jet as point!! *eek*

[Nowitzness81]

Devin Harris since the trade:

17.5 PPG, .423 FGP, 6.8 APG, 1.3 STPG

Kidd since the trade:

9.1 PPG, .403 FGP, 8.7 APG, 1.85 STPG

Mavericks PPG with Kidd: 101.3

Mavericks PPG with Harris: 100.5

Playoff wins with Kidd: 19

Playoff wins with Harris: 22

[AO41]

Kidd>>> Harris

Avery had some to do with Harris not being the player he coul have been, but Harris is not better than Kidd. I dont understant how anyone can look at the way Kidd plays out there and say he isnt better. The guy is pure GENIUS out there. I wasnt to see Harris guarding Kobe or Durant and coming up with HUGE strips and 3s...and I am not even talking about when hes 38. Harris will probably be done in his early 30s.

Harris was never a leader...Kidd is and D Williams is. Watch what happens if AJ tries to tie down Williams...he will be gone in a snap. I am betting the Nets make the playoffs next season with Williams.

[AO41]

Originally Posted by Nowitzness81

Devin Harris since the trade:

17.5 PPG, .423 FGP, 6.8 APG, 1.3 STPG

Kidd since the trade:

9.1 PPG, .403 FGP, 8.7 APG, 1.85 STPG

Mavericks PPG with Kidd: 101.3

Mavericks PPG with Harris: 100.5

Playoff wins with Kidd: 19

Playoff wins with Harris: 22

This is a little misleading. I believe you are giving Harris credit for some wins that Jet was our starting PG. Which I believe was the case going into the finals in 2006 as well.

[alexamenos]

Sorry to interject a relevant point into this discussion, but.....

Jason Kidd was a Free Agent last season. We conceivably could have had Kidd for the last two years without ever having given up Harris at all, probably for considerably less through some sort of sign and trade.

Accordingly, to evaluate the Kidd - Harris trade you have to look at what the mavs did in the '08 playoffs and the '09 playoffs.

[Axilla]

Originally Posted by alexamenos

Sorry to interject a relevant point into this discussion, but.....

Jason Kidd was a Free Agent last season. We conceivably could have had Kidd for the last two years without ever having given up Harris at all, probably for considerably less through some sort of sign and trade.

Accordingly, to evaluate the Kidd - Harris trade you have to look at what the mavs did in the '08 playoffs and the '09 playoffs.

so essentially you're saying:

a. trade wasn't optimal cuz kidd was a FA, etc.
b. we sucked in the playoffs for the first 2 years

--nevermind that LA was essentially unbeatable for those years

even still, kidd is a better PG and thats most relevant

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Nowitzness81

Devin Harris since the trade:

17.5 PPG, .423 FGP, 6.8 APG, 1.3 STPG

Kidd since the trade:

9.1 PPG, .403 FGP, 8.7 APG, 1.85 STPG

Mavericks PPG with Kidd: 101.3

Mavericks PPG with Harris: 100.5

Playoff wins with Kidd: 19

Playoff wins with Harris: 22

Games missed since the trade, Kidd: 7 (at least 6, if not all, were to give him some rest...)

Games missed since the trade, Harris: 46


Playoff games since the trade, Kidd: 35

Playoff games since the trade, Harris: 0


You can twist all kids of numbers to draw all kinds of conclusions...

[sefant77]

Originally Posted by alexamenos

Sorry to interject a relevant point into this discussion, but.....

Jason Kidd was a Free Agent last season. We conceivably could have had Kidd for the last two years without ever having given up Harris at all, probably for considerably less through some sort of sign and trade.

Accordingly, to evaluate the Kidd - Harris trade you have to look at what the mavs did in the '08 playoffs and the '09 playoffs.

If the Mavs dont trade for Kidd in 08 and Kidd leaves NJ as FA he would be now on a longterm MLE deal with the Lakers.

[alexamenos]

Originally Posted by Axilla

so essentially you're saying...

...something which is apparently above your head.

[Blackspider]

Harris is quick and can drive to the lane but he can not shoot jumpers at all. I don't trust his decision making at all. Makes a lot of bone headed plays. Kidd is a vet and is the best for this team. We are not 1 win away from the Finals with Harris as our point. Probably would already be done. Harris was also apart of one of the worst teams in NBA history record wise. He's not durable at all, either. Injury prone and I think that will be his downfall.

[mavsfan1000]

Originally Posted by Cerrakin

Well, we sure as hell wouldn't be 1 game from the finals with Harris still here.

Harris already took us to the final with a weaker team though. This team is stacked compared to that team.

[WurzburgBorn]

I did not like the trade when it first went through. I saw it as selling out some of the future to improve chances at a title during a short period. The problem for me was that I didn't think Kidd would make us good enough to have a realistic shot at the title, given the competition.
It is always difficult to speculate about how things would have been different. But the trade has clearly worked out better than I thought it would. Of course, our playoff run this season is not due exclusively to Kidd. Having Chandler on the team helps a lot. But I do think Kidd is a better fit in Dallas for the current composition of the team than Harris would be.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

Harris already took us to the final with a weaker team though. This team is stacked compared to that team.

Get one thing straight, Devin freakin' Harris didn't TAKE this team anywhere - it was all Dirk.

Now it's Dirk, Kidd and Chandler.

[alexamenos]

Originally Posted by sefant77

If the Mavs dont trade for Kidd in 08 and Kidd leaves NJ as FA he would be now on a longterm MLE deal with the Lakers.

So Kidd, had he remained in NJ if given a choice between signing with LA for ~$5mm or Dallas for something in the neighborhood of $8mm would have opted for LA? You're sure of this?

My point generally is that it's an opportunity cost thing--some considerations and frameworks for evaluating this sort of thing are right and some are wrong.

The right framework in this case is what did Dallas give up to get Kidd versus what sort of deal could have netted Kidd for this season, or more specifically, could Dallas conceivably have acquired a 36 year old free agent point guard for something less than Devin Harris, Diop, and two first round draft picks and $8mm?

The correct answer to this question is yes. Any other answer is wrong.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by jthig32

but I think a lot of us (notice the inclusion) have taken Jet's contributions for granted over these past few years.

Phhhhhhh...naw.

[sefant77]

Originally Posted by alexamenos

So Kidd, had he remained in NJ if given a choice between signing with LA for ~$5mm or Dallas for something in the neighborhood of $8mm would have opted for LA? You're sure of this?

And in which universe we had cap space in the summer of 08 to give Kidd without birdrights 8m?

Lakers 5y/34m with the MLE and Kidd easily take it back in 2008 as a Nets FA. And yes, im pretty confident he takes back then the Lakers MLE over our MLE.

[purplefrog]

I'd prefer not to talk about this right now.... on the other hand jthig is absolutely spot on.

[Kidd Karma]

What would Nelson have done with the 2 first rounders? Those things have value before the draft, but after, very little. It took the Mavs 2 years to add pieces around Kidd that fit, Marion, Butler, Haywood, Chandler. Would brass have attacked personnel that hard if Harris were still in town? With Harris do they go with Jefferson instead of Chandler? Offense over defense? Probably not, given the contract status. Since Harris already got to June, I'd have to say, it's ring or bust for Kidd. As a Kidd fan, I love the trade, but as Mavs fan, unless he puts you over the top it's a failure, you lose maybe 5-6 years of having a solid point guard in place, once Kidd is done. I don't buy the injury bug with Harris, as long as he's starting in the playoffs, case closed. Plus playing for the lottery you're more likely to be held out of 4-5 games more for a stubbed toe, than when you're battling for a playoff spot.

[sefant77]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

I'll save my awesome post for the return of "we should have kept Nash" thread.

Hmm and what about a "We should have kept Kidd and not trade for Finley" thread?