Dallas C's vs Western Conf Playoff C's - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

rabbitproof · 03-29-2006, 03:58 PM

So, after years of bemoaning our lack of center talent, or depth as was the case last year, we have a legitmate 1-2 center combination. Through our recent injury trials, the center position has become a stronghold for us with Damp's increasing consistency.

So, have we gone from sorry center nation to being the best at the 5 in the west amongst the playoff contenders? Where do you rank the Maverick centers against the other Western Conference big men?

Does Denver hold out top spot with Camby, who is probably the best overall center amongst the Western playoff teams but is injury-prone? Or will the more offensively-inclined Diaw or Miller have a bigger impact? Where are Nazr-Rasho?

What will this mean in the playoffs?

sixeightmkw · 03-29-2006, 04:13 PM

well, seeing that we don't rely on the center for scoring purposes, just basically to clog up the middle, I would say middle of the pack, but on effectiveness, tops in the conference. Nazr and Rasho are up there. With Duncan mixed in there, they are the best.

Five-ofan · 03-29-2006, 04:15 PM

The mavs clipps(dont sleep on Kaman) and the nuggets are all very solid.

jthig32 · 03-29-2006, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixeightmkw

well, seeing that we don't rely on the center for scoring purposes, just basically to clog up the middle, I would say middle of the pack, but on effectiveness, tops in the conference. Nazr and Rasho are up there. With Duncan mixed in there, they are the best.

If you include Duncan with them you have to include Dirk for us.

Just speaking to the Centers, I'll take ours over the Spurs ANY day. Rasho's terrible.

orangedays · 03-29-2006, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

If you include Duncan with them you have to include Dirk for us.

Just speaking to the Centers, I'll take ours over the Spurs ANY day. Rasho's terrible.

Unbelievably so...

Rasho - 4.8 ppg, 3.9 rpg in 19.6 mpg. That's just pathetic. Our very own Diop has more rebounds in less time.

Nazr's pretty awful too. He's only giving the Spurs 17.2 mpg - 6.2 ppg, 5.3 rpg.

So, production from the center spot for the Spurs in 36.8 total mpg is 11 ppg, 9.2 rpg. Yuck.

I guess the rest of the minutes are platooned to Horry, Oberto, and TD at the 5?

orangedays · 03-29-2006, 05:15 PM

Top 2 centers for each of the 8 Western Playoff teams (using current standings)

Rasho + Nazr = 11 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 0.9 apg, 1.78 bpg
Diaw + T. Thomas = 24.5 ppg, 12.1 rpg, 7.0 apg, 1.27 bpg
Camby + Elson = 17.7 ppg, 16.7 rpg, 2.4 apg, 4.03 bpg
Dampier + Diop = 8.1 ppg, 12.8 rpg, 1 apg, 3.13 bpg
Kaman + Rebraca = 15.9 ppg, 11.8 rpg, 1.4 apg, 2.01 bpg
Wright + Tsakalidis = 9.8 ppg, 8.8 rpg, 0.9 apg, 1.08 bpg
Mihm + Brown? = 17.1 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 2.0 apg, 1.89 bpg
Miller + Thomas? = 24.2 ppg, 15.4 rpg, 6.8 apg, 1.2 bpg

*Leaders bolded
2nd italicized
3rd underlined

Teams like the Lakers and Kings do not seem to have a legitimate second center behind their starter and play the position by platoon, so I plugged in Kwame Brown and Kenny Thomas respectively (the Kings played Brian Skinner at the 5 before they traded him). The Clippers played Chris Wilcox at center before trading him and now Rebraca is usually the first big man off the bench.

I think if we look purely at the stats, we'd have to give the title of "Best Center Duo in the West" to Camby and Elson (though Camby is certainly carrying the bulk of that partnership). Camby's been absolutely sick this year, in a good way - he even garnered some MVP talk earlier in the season.

Obviously, the Suns' centers are centers by name only. On no other team would we find two guys, one 6-8, 215, manning the post. The system works well for them offensively, but creates a huge black hole on the defensive end (something we can take advantage of with Dirk, Devin, and Q, among others, if necessary).

The Spurs' duo is rancid. As is the Grizzlies'. Think how good Duncan/Gasol would be if they had legit centers. Kaman is turning into an interesting player - he has given the Clips a very legitimate post presence and is a great complement to Brand.

I think alot of people overlook the impact of Chris Mihm - he'll never be a superstar but he's workable at the 5, relatively mobile, and you can't teach size. The Kings' duo (again, I inserted Thomas) is similar to that of the Suns in that Miller is more of a perimeter big man than someone who will clog the paint. Offensively they're quite good, but defensively, they're very exploitable. Miller's a big guy, sure, but his post-defense is pretty awful and given the opportunity, our players will take the Kings apart in the paint.

madape · 03-29-2006, 06:20 PM

Two average centers do not equal one good one. So, as impressed as we all are at the relative mediocrity of the Mavs current crop of run of the mill centers, we don't have anyone capable of hanging with the big boys in the west. The most likely scenario is that our centers will be outclassed and outmatched by better competition throughout the playoffs. Hopefully, this year Diop will help us at least avoid embarassment, which is something Erick Dampier couldn't do last year.

Seriously, I don't know how anyone can be confident of our low post success when we don't have a center on this roster that can realistically be conisdered in the top 20 at his position. The centers get a lot of minutes under Avery. But they are still the weakness of this team.

I'll put us ahead of the Lakers.. but that's about all... You can argue that Memphis and San Antonio have similar situations, but both of those teams have power forwards that excel in the pivot.

The best we can hope for is that Diop/Dampier can manage to just slow down the production of the guys that are clearly better than them... namely Kaman, Camby, Miller, and Amare.

orangedays · 03-29-2006, 06:25 PM

Amare's a non-issue at this point.

Who are the 20 centers who are better than Damp?

dude1394 · 03-29-2006, 06:27 PM

Our centers are serviceable, but not great. If damp could manage to keep hitting his fts' (he's been very,very good lately) and get a little more offensive minded I'd be pretty happy.

But they are a pretty good bunch that helps sandwich dirk between themselves and josh. I still wish they could hit a 12 footer, it would make our offense really flow better.

But they are what they are, and damp is the biggest strongest dude on the team and I'm glad to have him.

dude1394 · 03-29-2006, 06:27 PM

Amare is done....(At least this year)

madape · 03-29-2006, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orangedays

Amare's a non-issue at this point.

Who are the 20 centers who are better than Damp?

well, off the top of my head...

Yao
Shaq
Brad Miller
Amare
Kaman
Camby
Okafor
Jermaine O'Neil
Bosh
Ben Wallace
Ilgauskas
Okur
Tyson Chandler
Bogut
Dalembert
Mourning
PJ Brown
Pachulia
Kurt Thomas
Curry
Jeff Foster
and probably Darko Milicic

(oops, more than 20)

Did I leave anyone out?
Nenad Kristic?
Nazr Mohammed?
Lorenzen Wright?

Probably not, but those guys are nipping at our heels.

madape · 03-29-2006, 06:41 PM

forgot about the afore mentioned Mihm and our old friend Raef LaFrenz, who could quite possibly be considered the best center on the Mavs roster if he were still here.

orangedays · 03-29-2006, 08:18 PM

I don't agree with you 100% but you've made some valid points:

Damp's scoring is admittedly awful - #30, but I attribute that to the fact that he doesn't get a lot of looks since he's surrounded by a team of scorers. His shooting could use some work as he's only making 50% of his shots, which is on the low end for centers, and his FT shooting (though improved lately) remains pretty bad. But we have to remember that scoring is not his role - how many plays do we run for the guy every game? 2? 3 max? What we need from Damp is strong post defense and rebounding - the biggest impacts he has on offense are (1) picks and (2) offensive boards, which brings me to...

His rebounding, where he ranks #10 in the league. He manages to pull down 8.1 rpg despite the fact that he plays fewer minutes than every other center all the way down to #21 Tony Battie. Rebounding is Damp's greatest asset, and while it may not make him a top-10 center by any stretch of the imagination (hell, I could list at least 10 centers I'd rather have than Damp), it should prevent him from falling out of the top 20. Especially within the context of meeting the Mavs' needs. He ranks #3 in offensive rebounds (#4 in o. rpg). That's pretty damn good - and I love the fact that Damp gets us so many extra looks, though I would love it more if he could finish better the opportunities he did get. Damp is also a legit shotblocker, #14 in the league in swats pg.

If nothing else, I think his post-defense and rebounding justify his presence on this team (not the contract) but those are the needs we needed to satisfy the most and Damp has done an adequate (if not mind-boggling) job. Criticisms of Damp? I've got tons...can't finish for sh*t, needs to be a better passer, needs to stop getting ticky-tack fouls, the list goes on...but none of these things preclude him from being a good fit for this team.

The sad reality for the Mavs is that, you're right ape - objectively speaking, Damp's pretty damn bad. After looking up the numbers for my previous post - I noticed that Damp matches up (statistically) quite poorly against the current crop of NBA big men. I'm pretty sure everyone agrees with you that he's not worth half his contract. But like dude said, he's big, he's strong (two things we can't say about Raef) and he gives us a legitimate center who takes pressure off of our perimeter defenders and off of Dirk. If he can do that for us (as a back-up, no less) then I still have to throw my support behind Dump...I mean Damp.

Thespiralgoeson · 03-29-2006, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madape

well, off the top of my head...

Yao
Shaq
Brad Miller
Amare
Kaman
Camby
Okafor
Jermaine O'Neil
Bosh
Ben Wallace
Ilgauskas
Okur
Tyson Chandler
Bogut
Dalembert
Mourning
PJ Brown
Pachulia
Kurt Thomas
Curry
Jeff Foster
and probably Darko Milicic

(oops, more than 20)

Did I leave anyone out?
Nenad Kristic?
Nazr Mohammed?
Lorenzen Wright?

Probably not, but those guys are nipping at our heels.

Dampier > Brad Miller
Dampier > PJ Brown
Damper > Kurt Thomas
Dampier > Eddy Curry
Dampier = Jeff Foster
Amare is not a center
Chris Bosh is not a center
Emeka Okafor is not a center
Mehmet Okur is not a center
Darko Milicic is not a center
Dampier >> Nazr Mohammed
Dampier >>>>>> Lorenzen Wright

Edit:

Dampier > Raef LaFentz
Dampier > Chris Mihm

jthig32 · 03-29-2006, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Dampier > Brad Miller
Dampier > PJ Brown
Damper > Kurt Thomas
Dampier > Eddy Curry
Dampier = Jeff Foster
Amare is not a center
Chris Bosh is not a center
Emeka Okafor is not a center
Mehmet Okur is not a center
Darko Milicic is not a center
Dampier >> Nazr Mohammed
Dampier >>>>>> Lorenzen Wright

Edit:

Dampier > Raef LaFentz
Dampier > Chris Mihm

Jermaine O'Neal is also not a center. What a ridiculous list.

chumdawg · 03-30-2006, 12:07 AM

Old news. By now everyone knows that Dampier is the second-best center in the league.

madape · 03-30-2006, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Dampier > Brad Miller
Dampier > PJ Brown
Damper > Kurt Thomas
Dampier > Eddy Curry
Dampier = Jeff Foster
Amare is not a center
Chris Bosh is not a center
Emeka Okafor is not a center
Mehmet Okur is not a center
Darko Milicic is not a center
Dampier >> Nazr Mohammed
Dampier >>>>>> Lorenzen Wright

Edit:

Dampier > Raef LaFentz
Dampier > Chris Mihm

well, since we're just talking about Dampier... according to the Mavs:

Diop > Dampier

and to some of those in the Mavs organization who reportedly wanted to cut the guy

Nothing > Dampier

Dtownsfinest · 03-30-2006, 12:41 AM

I'd take all of those centers Madape listed over Damp except Pachulia. Hell i'd take Diop over Damp.

Tokey41 · 03-30-2006, 01:04 AM

Damp has always been a mistake to me... he rebounds, but definitely not worth the money we pay for him... for that kind of payment he needs to average double digits in the REB column and I can't penalize him for his scoring because we just have too many talented scorers. But blocks? Ok I guess... should be better though once again, Cuban was over zealous in acquring him and even Golden State knew that season was only a result of an expiring contract. Positively speaking he does what a center should do, what we need him to do.

But Diop is still better and getting better, its obvious he will start being the dominant center very soon.

And not to stir anything up... but Darko will be better than both of them combined. Yeah I said it, I supported him ever since he was drafted even when the Pistons were too talented to have a spot for him. Too bad we couldnt have gotten him somehow... imagine Harris, Q, Howard, Darko, and Diop... wow.

orangedays · 03-30-2006, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tokey41

Damp has always been a mistake to me... he rebounds, but definitely not worth the money we pay for him...

Big men cost big bucks in the NBA - (too little) supply and (too much) demand. It's not really a choice we (or any other NBA team) has. Damp may not be worth the money we pay for him but how many centers outside of Yao, Shaq, Kaman, Miller are?

Thespiralgoeson · 03-30-2006, 04:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madape

well, since we're just talking about Dampier... according to the Mavs:

Diop > Dampier

Actually, I think Avery Johnson simply believes that Dampier is more productive off the bench. And if ANYONE in the Mavericks organizition believes that Sagana Diop is a better player than Erick Dampier, then they should be fired immidiately because they don't understand simple math.

Quote:

and to some of those in the Mavs organization who reportedly wanted to cut the guy

Nothing > Dampier

Then either they're fucking idiots, or what's more likely, they don't exist.

Thespiralgoeson · 03-30-2006, 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tokey41

Damp has always been a mistake to me... he rebounds, but definitely not worth the money we pay for him... for that kind of payment he needs to average double digits in the REB column and I can't penalize him for his scoring because we just have too many talented scorers. But blocks? Ok I guess... should be better though once again, Cuban was over zealous in acquring him and even Golden State knew that season was only a result of an expiring contract. Positively speaking he does what a center should do, what we need him to do.

But Diop is still better and getting better, its obvious he will start being the dominant center very soon.

I agree that he's overpaid, but with the exception of Ben Wallace (and apparently Diop) I think all big men in the NBA are overpaid. His contract is hardly exceptional.

Quote:

And not to stir anything up... but Darko will be better than both of them combined. Yeah I said it, I supported him ever since he was drafted even when the Pistons were too talented to have a spot for him. Too bad we couldnt have gotten him somehow... imagine Harris, Q, Howard, Darko, and Diop... wow.

I agree completely, but again, it's irrelevant because he's not really a center.

Five-ofan · 03-30-2006, 12:56 PM

I love darko and would loved to have gotten him but it wasnt to be. plus we arent the place for him because we are also trying to win a ring now and cant give him the minutes he needs. Anyone that thinks diop is better than damp is a dumbass. Just flat out there is nothing to it other than if they are related to diop. The problem with damp is that what he does doesnt show up in stats other than boards and blocks but if you want to know a reason for dirk being able to get to the rim more than he used to look no further than damp. He is the best sealer since malone was young. That will never show up in the stat sheet. Obviously im not trying to say that damp is what makes dirk a stud because dirk is a stud all on his own but he does make dirks life easier which is the job of any dirty work player. The problem is we bitch and moan about needing a dirty work player then we get one and bitch and moan about his stats. Is he worth his contract? No but very very few nba centers are.

sixeightmkw · 03-30-2006, 01:00 PM

I love Damp, and I love Diop. I am happy with the productivity they are giving us from the center position. They both bring different things to the table.
I am related to Dip, my name is Mbungy Dsgila Diop

orangedays · 03-30-2006, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixeightmkw

I love Damp, and I love Diop. I am happy with the productivity they are giving us from the center position. They both bring different things to the table.
I am related to Dip, my name is Mbungy Dsgila Diop

If that is the case, am I to assume that your wife kept her name?

sixeightmkw · 03-30-2006, 01:15 PM

her maiden name was tsgarkiasitiasmk. figure that one out. haha
just kidding.