Howard & Terry to Phoenix for Diaw, Barbosa & Hill

[SeriousSummer]

Might take a tweak or two to work, can't check it on RealGM and can't do the deal until the BYC expires, but:

Mavs trade:

Josh Howard
Jason Terry

Mavs receive:

Boris Diaw
Leonarde Barbosa
Grant Hill

Phoenix, now that D'Antoni is gone, goes conventional:

Shaq
Amare
Howard
Bell
Nash

Terry is the sixth man backing up both guard positions

Dallas becomes more versatile and quicker:

1. Damp
Dirk
Diaw
Barbosa
Kidd

2. (when a small line up is called for)

Dirk
Bass
Diaw
Barbosa
Kidd

What do you think?

[4cwebb]

For better or worse, I don't think the Suns give up on Barbosa just yet (even though he has been the antithesis of a clutch playoff performer) for the likes of a damaged Howard (who wasn't able to mesh as well with JKidd as expected by some).

[nikeball]

I would not do it. The biggest limitation for Diaw is that he likes to occupy the top of the key and elbows like Dirk. Diaw is severely limited when he does not (See Amare's comeback).

This makes us very weak in the swingman position...as much as Josh Howard's defense has deteriorated in the past year..I would still rather have him guard other SG/SF than Jerry Stackhouse.

Terry's perimeter shooting is more consistent than Barbosa..and if Jet attacked the basket as much as Barbosa did I think it is only a SLIGHT edge towards L.B. Defensively.. both kinda suck donkey nuts.

Hill is way too undependable due to his injury prone status.

[Dirkenstien]

There's no way I'd do this deal just because I think if you trade Howard you need to get back a starter.

Plus, I would prefer to not trade Howard to a Western conference team and the last place I would like to see him is on a competitive Western conference team where Nash will make him look 100X better than he really is.

edit: But if they're willing to give up Amare then that's a completely different story

[LonghornDub]

I have no interest in Grant Hill. People were trying to tell Suns fans all year that he wouldn't make a difference in the playoffs, because he'd be hurt, and they didn't listen. Look what happened.

[me770706]

are you kidding..phoenix becomes ultimately better after this deal. nashy josh and amare as your big 3 with shaq and bell as defensive presence and terry as the 6th man? that team is elite

[Robillion]

no way...
i hate your deals SeriousSam.

[12 Tone Melodies]

No--Hill will go down with an injury an the worst possible time

[rmacomic]

How about Josh Howard for Steve Nash? And then we can hire Don Nelson!

[dalmations202]

I think Dallas can't get through Phoenix then....... but Nash gets his ring.

[horse900703]

good trade i think

[SeriousSummer]

Originally Posted by Robillion

no way...
i hate your deals SeriousSam.

Almost everyone on this board hates any realistic deal. I'm OK with that. We're all Mavs fans and if you look realistically at your team, then you'd never waste the time we all do watching, rooting and thinking about Mavericks basketball.

So almost all of us criticize, brutally, almost every player on the team and then overrate them by a factor of 2 or 3 if someone suggests trading them.

The Mavs need to get quicker and younger fast or they won't be able to compete in the west. With the present team, even the playoffs aren't a sure thing--Portland and Golden State are yapping at the heels of the Mavs. If you want to compete for the next several years, while Dirk is still an elite player, then you need to bring in 3 or 4 25-28 year old swing players (or a post scorer if you could find one) to run with Dirk and Kidd.

Anything from Grant Hill in this deal would be a bonus. But Diaw is a great, unselfish, all-around player. He'd be excellent with Dirk and Kidd in a motion offense. Barbosa is as fast as anybody in the league and would be as effective as Terry as a combo guard without giving so much size and strength away.

If the Mavs don't make changes sufficient to compete next year, then I doubt Kidd remains with the Mavs and, IMHO, you might as well trade Dirk as well and admit you have to rebuild.

In fact, hard as it is to do, the Mavs might be better off admitting it's time to rebuild and trading Dirk and Kidd while they still have significant value. Of course, right now there is almost nothing to rebuild around if you do that. So the results could be brutal.

[Dirkadirkastan]

THAT'S your sig??

[Dirkadirkastan]

Originally Posted by SeriousSummer

Almost everyone on this board hates any realistic deal. I'm OK with that. We're all Mavs fans and if you look realistically at your team, then you'd never waste the time we all do watching, rooting and thinking about Mavericks basketball.

So almost all of us criticize, brutally, almost every player on the team and then overrate them by a factor of 2 or 3 if someone suggests trading them.

OK, I didn't read past this because you played the stupid "y'all are homers" card.

Berating a Mavs player does NOT automatically make you objective. Case closed.

[SeriousSummer]

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

OK, I didn't read past this because you played the stupid "y'all are homers" card.

Berating a Mavs player does NOT automatically make you objective. Case closed.

And, pray tell, what Mavs player did I berate?

If you are too lazy to read a post, then maybe you shouldn't bother to reply to it.

[BGMaverick9]

For me:

Hill is better than Stack, but you just know that injury is looming with him and we can't take in an injury-prone one and send one back.

Diaw doesn't strike me as really savvy with his bball IQ. He doesn't take advantage of the situations that he is in and is unselfish to a fault.

Barbosa is the key part of it, to me. His speed is unquestioned but what is he? Is he a point guard who hasn't gotten it yet as a facilitator? Is he a small two guard who isn't reliable as a scorer?

[Dirkadirkastan]

Originally Posted by SeriousSummer

And, pray tell, what Mavs player did I berate?

If you are too lazy to read a post, then maybe you shouldn't bother to reply to it.

Such posts are all the same.

Saying we love our team doesn't make your proposal reasonable. And I don't even give a crap about the details of this specific trade. I'm just calling out your BS about how other people's "homerism" is enough to justify your ideas.

[jthig32]

As much as I want Josh off this team, this deal makes no sense for the Mavs. Josh still carries more value than Diaw, Stack has value as an expirving contract. The only "upgrade" you get in this deal is Barbosa and we already have a better version of Barbosa in Jason Terry. Having both of them on the team at the same time would make zero sense.

Edit: Well crap, I hated this deal when I thought it was Josh and Stack leaving. With Terry leaving it makes even less sense. The only thing Barbosa has over Terry is age. Other than that you're getting worse at the combo guard position.

Beyond that, I think Josh is still a better and more valuable player than Diaw and Hill is completely unreliable.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Edit: Well crap, I hated this deal when I thought it was Josh and Stack leaving. With Terry leaving it makes even less sense. The only thing Barbosa has over Terry is age. Other than that you're getting worse at the combo guard position.

Truth. It really does blow my mind that anybody could think Barbosa would be an upgrade over Terry in any sense other than years.

[Robillion]

OK if you want to give yup Josh Howard AND Jason Terry for a deal for Barbosa then do something like this.

Mavs get - Barbosa, Maggette

Suns get - Howard, Knight

Clips get - Terry, Diaw

btw.. I have no idea if those trades work out salary wise.. but Clips like Terry and would need a replacement at SF, Howard would be great for the Suns and they need a backup PG..

Anyways, as much you you think Howard and Terry's value is low. It actually really is not as low as you mention. GMs across the league know that Howards problem is his attitude no so much his skill and definitely not his potential.. and that Terry is straight clutch in the playoffs. Of course we would love to have a Barbosa here, but YOU have to be realistic and less objective about the players. Its not us, yeah there are some homers but most of them are the types that dont know much about bball and most dont post on this board. We watch nearly every game and are probably the most critical fans of our players. But fans/players/coaches/gms of other teams dont see it as we do. I guarantee that Utah doesnt believe Howard sucks. I guarantee that the Hornets do not believe Terry sucks. ect ect. So we propose trades that we think other teams would go for and that would be better for our team. You propose trades that are highway robbery (even moreso in their eyes) and hurt our team. That is why I dont like your trade scenarios.

[SeriousSummer]

Sixth man of the year voting:

Ginobili: 615
Barbosa: 283
Terry: 44

"Truth. It really does blow my mind that anybody could think Barbosa would be an upgrade over Terry in any sense other than years"

Any of you who think that Terry is regarded by the NBA as a significantly better player than Barbosa are, to put it succintly, delusional. There is no other way to put it. Defend it; argue it; do what you will, that opinion is absolutely not shared around the league. You might also note that Barbosa won Sixth Man of the year honors last year.

Then, of course, you have to consider that Barbosa is younger, taller, heavier and stronger than Terry--none of that is subjective.

In short, if thinking Barbosa is an upgrade blows your mind, then the mind of the voters for the NBA Sixth Man of the year voters have been blown, severely, for the last two years.

Who do you think is more objective? Mavs fans on this board or the voters for Sixth Man of the Year for the last two years?

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by SeriousSummer

Sixth man of the year voting:

Ginobili: 615
Barbosa: 283
Terry: 44

"Truth. It really does blow my mind that anybody could think Barbosa would be an upgrade over Terry in any sense other than years"

Any of you who think that Terry is regarded by the NBA as a significantly better player than Barbosa are, to put it succintly, delusional. There is no other way to put it. Defend it; argue it; do what you will, that opinion is absolutely not shared around the league. You might also note that Barbosa won Sixth Man of the year honors last year.

Then, of course, you have to consider that Barbosa is younger, taller, heavier and stronger than Terry--none of that is subjective.

In short, if thinking Barbosa is an upgrade blows your mind, then the mind of the voters for the NBA Sixth Man of the year voters have been blown, severely, for the last two years.

Who do you think is more objective? Mavs fans on this board or the voters for Sixth Man of the Year for the last two years?

That makes about as much sense as saying that Barbosa was a better basketball player than Manu Ginobili last year because Barbosa won 6th Man last season.

Terry started 34 games this year--nearly half the games. Barbosa started 12. Of course Barbosa is going to have a leg up in 6th man voting. Unless you're Manu, who's a top 20 NBA player shoved into a 6th man role, the number of games in which you actually play the role of 6th man is going to be incredibly important in dictating the award.

Barbosa had a lower FG% than Terry, and had over 50 less assists throughout the course of the year. Plus, as little defense as Terry plays, Barbosa is even worse. Not only that, but Barbosa had the luxury of playing on a run-n-gun, no defense squad. The 6th Man award is probably 90-95% predicated on offense. You can bet that JT's offensive impact would far overshadow Barbosa's if he wasn't shackled by Avery's awful offensive system.

So, yes, Terry is a better basketball player than Barbosa. Citing a 6th Man award as proof that one basketball player is better than another is quite, quite bizarre.

[SeriousSummer]

No, let's look at what you said: "Truth. It really does blow my mind that anybody could think Barbosa would be an upgrade over Terry in any sense other than years."

Clearly the great majority of eligible voters for Sixth Man of the Year awards disagree with you. You're entitled to argue that they are wrong.

But to claim that it's a ridiculous position is absurd. Both Terry and Barbosa were eligible. Maybe the voters were incorrect. But if the thought "blows your mind", then you really are a homer who's opinion has to be regarded in that light.

Face the truth.

[BGMaverick9]

Are you really trying to defend the point that Barbosa is a better player than Terry?

[Robillion]

Barbosa and Terry are really two different animals and serve two different purposes. I actually would rather have Barbosa than Terry because of our needs. But there are definitely many teams and fans out there that would rather have Terry than Barbosa. ..So yeah Barbosa won the 6th man of the year award, but he has been distinctly that while Terry is hardly considered a 6th man. He doesnt come in the game and instantly spark an offensive run like Barbosa can. But who would you rather have in the end game taking your shot? Terry hands down every single time. Who would I rather play for significant minutes in the playoffs? Terry hands down every single time. I am pretty sure others around the league would share these sentiments.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by SeriousSummer

No, let's look at what you said: "Truth. It really does blow my mind that anybody could think Barbosa would be an upgrade over Terry in any sense other than years."

Clearly the great majority of eligible voters for Sixth Man of the Year awards disagree with you. You're entitled to argue that they are wrong.

But to claim that it's a ridiculous position is absurd. Both Terry and Barbosa were eligible. Maybe the voters were incorrect. But if the thought "blows your mind", then you really are a homer who's opinion has to be regarded in that light.

Face the truth.

Apparently the point just flew right on by your head.

Let's try it again: unless you think that "6th Man Award" is code for "Best Basketball Player," then your argument makes absolutely no sense. Terry is hardly a 6th man; Barbosa is as true a 6th man as they come.

Never, not once, did I say that Terry was a better 6th man. I said he was a better basketball player (other than his age). Were I a 6th man voter, I would have voted exactly as they did--Terry in a distant 3rd to Barbosa and Manu.

However, were I ranking every player in the NBA, Terry would be in the top 50, and Barbosa would be a hell of lot closer to 75 or 80. By the by, their respective PER ratings back up my proposition almost perfectly--Terry is 51st in the league, and Barbosa is 87th. But, how can that be? The omnipotent 6th Man voters said otherwise!

FWIW, there is no quicker way to sound like you have no idea what you're talking about than to accuse someone of being a "homer" simply because they assert that one of their teams' players is better than someone else.

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by SeriousSummer

Almost everyone on this board hates any realistic deal. I'm OK with that. We're all Mavs fans and if you look realistically at your team, then you'd never waste the time we all do watching, rooting and thinking about Mavericks basketball.

So almost all of us criticize, brutally, almost every player on the team and then overrate them by a factor of 2 or 3 if someone suggests trading them.

The funny part of this statement is that overrating or underrating actually only occurs between GM's and Owners. What fans think would be a "good" or "realistic" deal may or may not be according to the owners of the contracts. Everyone has an opinion, some informed, and some dreamlike. Calling what you think "realistic" is not necessarily what Mark thinks........and he holds ALL the cards.

Fans give opinions. That is what/why I come to this board. I come to get others opinions. None of them make a hill of beans difference though to card holders (owners).

I really like some of Serious's trades..... not this one, but some of them. It doesn't make him/her correct or incorrect and it definitely didn't make the trade realist or unrealistic.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by dalmations202

I really like some of Serious's trades..... not this one, but some of them. It doesn't make him/her correct or incorrect and it definitely didn't make the trade realist or unrealistic.

I find most of his trades to be quite plausible. Desirable, even. This particular move, however, makes no sense whatsoever.

[Robillion]

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

I find most of his trades to be quite plausible. Desirable, even. This particular move, however, makes no sense whatsoever.

so I guess you were a proponent of the Dallas starters for Portland bench swap, eh?

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by Robillion

so I guess you were a proponent of the Dallas starters for Portland bench swap, eh?

Well, we'll have to go ahead and preclude that one from being placed in my "trades I liked" box.

[SeriousSummer]

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

I find most of his trades to be quite plausible. Desirable, even. This particular move, however, makes no sense whatsoever.

If you think it doesn't make sense, the you are looking at the Mavs' needs differently then I do. Terry is a good player. But he's not a point guard. He's too short to play shooting guard except in limited circumstances. Barbosa is younger, taller, faster, stronger than Terry. Matched with Kidd he will be more effective.

Howard is a decent player, but not what the Mavs need in his position. Diaw will drive and then kick the ball to Dirk for shots. Howard doesn't pass.
.
Hill, even given he will be unable to play physically much of the time, is an excellent all around player.

The Mavs need complementary players to Dirk--players that can get him the ball where he can score. Diaw and Hill will be very valuable that way. Barbosa will restore the one man fast break the Mavs lost with Harris--but better because Kidd will get the ball out to him quicker.

The fit of players benefits both teams.

[Caseman]

Originally Posted by SeriousSummer

Might take a tweak or two to work, can't check it on RealGM and can't do the deal until the BYC expires, but:

Mavs trade:

Josh Howard
Jason Terry

Mavs receive:

Boris Diaw
Leonarde Barbosa
Grant Hill

Phoenix, now that D'Antoni is gone, goes conventional:

Shaq
Amare
Howard
Bell
Nash

Terry is the sixth man backing up both guard positions

Dallas becomes more versatile and quicker:

1. Damp
Dirk
Diaw
Barbosa
Kidd

2. (when a small line up is called for)

Dirk
Bass
Diaw
Barbosa
Kidd

What do you think?

Are you kidding? Why would the Suns do that?

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by SeriousSummer

If you think it doesn't make sense, the you are looking at the Mavs' needs differently then I do. Terry is a good player. But he's not a point guard. He's too short to play shooting guard except in limited circumstances. Barbosa is younger, taller, faster, stronger than Terry. Matched with Kidd he will be more effective.

Howard is a decent player, but not what the Mavs need in his position. Diaw will drive and then kick the ball to Dirk for shots. Howard doesn't pass.
.
Hill, even given he will be unable to play physically much of the time, is an excellent all around player.

The Mavs need complementary players to Dirk--players that can get him the ball where he can score. Diaw and Hill will be very valuable that way. Barbosa will restore the one man fast break the Mavs lost with Harris--but better because Kidd will get the ball out to him quicker.

The fit of players benefits both teams.

On Barbosa, he's not a point guard either. In fact, he's less of one than Terry. I mentioned before that Terry has 50 more assists than Barbs this year.

Hill's alright. He was "excellent" about 7 years ago. But I don't want a guy who's always injured, no matter how good he is.

Right now, I'm so frustrated with Howard, I might have to THINK about Diaw over Howard. But that's the only part of the trade that's remotely compelling for me.

Now, if we start talking Howard+Stackhouse for, say Diaw and Barbosa.....then I'm all in.

[rabbitproof]

Yeah but why the hell would Phoenix do that one?

I like SS's trades. They're not always 'likely' but they're well thought out.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

Yeah but why the hell would Phoenix do that one?

I like SS's trades. They're not always 'likely' but they're well thought out.

They don't call him Serious Summer for nothing.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by SeriousSummer

If you think it doesn't make sense, the you are looking at the Mavs' needs differently then I do. Terry is a good player. But he's not a point guard. He's too short to play shooting guard except in limited circumstances. Barbosa is younger, taller, faster, stronger than Terry. Matched with Kidd he will be more effective.

So your problem with Terry is that he's not a PG, but you like Barbosa because he would play better next to Kidd. That doesn't make any sense.

And Barbosa being one freaking inch taller makes absolutely no difference. They're both combo guards.

Also, Terry is a clutch player who elevates his game in the playoffs. Barbosa is very unreliable in clutch situations, just go ask Suns fans.

[nikeball]

I think he is arguing the fact that in a SG position..LB would fare better than JET...because passing (assists) does not matter as much as in a PG position.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by nikeball

I think he is arguing the fact that in a SG position..LB would fare better than JET...because passing (assists) does not matter as much as in a PG position.

Then why is he holding the fact that Jet is not a PG against him? Like I said, the two points spliced together don't make any sense.

There's no real logic to suggest that LB would work better at SG than Terry. They're both combo guards who can't defend.

In fact, to me Barbosa words better overall as a backup PG because his speed with the ball is his biggest asset. With a distributor like Kidd I'd rather have the spot up shooter in Terry.

[alby]

I will give up Howard only if we get a #2 option back.

I wouldn't do this trade.

[ghazi]

I would give my left nut for maggette/redd right now, seriously. the more i envision that starting 5 in my head, the more excited my LOINS gets.