I don't much like our team - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

SeriousSummer · 09-20-2010, 02:26 PM

Don't get me wrong. I will root for the Mavs through thick and thin (the 1990s when I had season tickets).

Most of the Mavs players seem like decent enough people, as much as you can tell as a fan, so I don't dislike them. I think the team has competitive talent. Not as much as the Lakers, but comparable to any other team in the West.

It's the way the team is put together. I don't think it makes sense. Here are the top nine players:

Kidd
Beaubois, Barea, Terry
Butler, Marion
Dirk
Haywood, Chandler

(I don't see more than limited time for Stevenson, Jones, Mahinni, and Ajinca, at best, so I'm leaving them out of the discussion).

First, Kidd is still good, but he's old. He needs rest, which means the Mavs need a back up point capable of big minutes, and they don't have one. Barea is too short. He gets exposed. Terry isn't really a point. Beaubois isn't (yet) a point.

Next, the Mavs have three short guards. I don't see how you can effectively play any two of Beaubois, Barea and Terry together.

The Mavs have two solid starting small forwards. Not great but legitimate starters.

At power forward we have Dirk--but no back up at all.

At center we have two defensive players (four if you count Mahinni and Ajinca) but no offense.

Something about the way this team is put together reminds me of the Dirk-Jamison-Walker team and it's not a pleasant memory.

fluid.forty.one · 09-20-2010, 02:40 PM

I don't much like this sentiment.

Listing Barea as the back up two makes the rotation look 1000x worse, and you do so after saying he's too short to play POINT. How could he be a back up SG then? yes, he's a good limited backup point guard.. especially if Roddy takes some point minutes too. Where Barea really hurts us is if he plays SG or with the 3 guard lineup.

Kidd/Barea
Roddy/Terry
Butler/Marion
Dirk/Marion
Haywood/Chandler

That looks way more balanced than the way you put it.

The real problem we have is depth if Marion goes down.. I would love this lineup if we were to get Singleton back magically or someone similar.

bernardos70 · 09-20-2010, 02:44 PM

Doesn't quite remind me of the Dirk/Jamison/Walker era... in fact, I don't agree with your assessment at all, though I am finding it very difficult to get excited about this next season. This felt like an extremely long summer.

For me in particular, it could have been due to the fact I'm investing more time into watching soccer again, the fact the world cup just ended.... but it could just as easily have to do with the fact that LeBron James and Chris Bosh are Wade's concubines now, or it could be that we had the DUST chip and failed to make any sort of meaningful impact in the summer market, or it could be that our team is mostly unchanged, and our best players are getting older and older.... I don't know exactly, I can't pinpoint it.

I guess I just need the season to get underway again for me to get into it again, because right now my interest in basketball in general is at an all time low. I'm speaking only for myself here.

Rick41 · 09-20-2010, 02:47 PM

LoL @ Barea being the backup 2 ahead of Terry.

Fish is saying that the Mavs might give Ike Diogu a look for a spot on the roster. But more importantly, we will know if and who will be Dirk's backup by midweek which is when the Mavs should get something done.

fluid.forty.one · 09-20-2010, 02:57 PM

I'd say that this team is the exact opposite of the Walker era team because, besides Dirk and Roddy, this team is less offensively talented (and coached) and way better defensively talented (and coached) and tough... I mean, compare them.

Kidd/Nash
Roddy/Finley
Butler(Marion)/Howard
Dirk/Dirk
Haywood/Walker

I don't see how those teams are similar at all except maybe Roddy/Finley and the SF position because that was when Howard was tough and awesome.

SeriousSummer · 09-20-2010, 03:20 PM

Here is, in general, what I think the Mavs need to do:

Trade Terry, Barea and Butler (and any of Stevenson, Jones, Mahinni or Ajinca needed to make the deals work) for a taller back up point guard, a normal size shooting guard (or one combo guard) and back ups for small forward and power forward.

That ought to be doable because the Mavs don't need great players at these positions--the startes, Kidd, Beaubois, Marion, Dirk and Haywood/Chandler, are set. The Mavs need capable, appropriate back ups, not stars.

SeriousSummer · 09-20-2010, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

I'd say that this team is the exact opposite of the Walker era team because, besides Dirk and Roddy, this team is less offensively talented (and coached) and way better defensively talented (and coached) and tough... I mean, compare them.

Kidd/Nash
Roddy/Finley
Butler(Marion)/Howard
Dirk/Dirk
Haywood/Walker

I don't see how those teams are similar at all except maybe Roddy/Finley and the SF position because that was when Howard was tough and awesome.

The teams are similar in terms of having talent, but being imbalanced.

Dirk, Jamison and Walker all played the same position--and the only way you could use them all was to play people out of position.

The current team has two small forwards--you can only use them both by playing one out of position.

The current team has three too small guards--they don't work well together and as a consequence Kidd plays too many minutes.

Terry and Beaubois have to be the shortest shooting guard combination in the league and playing either one of them with Barea isn't going to work.

sefant77 · 09-20-2010, 03:28 PM

The main problem of the Mavs over the years were that we dont have much "complete" players, solid on both ends of the court. We have too many players with major leaks.

Kidd: Cant defend PGs. Scores just from downtown
Terry: Cant defend anyone. Scores just with the jumper
Barea: Cant defend anyone.
Marion: No offensive game
Haywood/Chandler: Limited offensive game
Dirk: Need a good defensive center beside him

Comparing this with other contender, their main guys are much more solid and better on both ends of the court.

Usually Lurkin · 09-20-2010, 03:28 PM

It would have been great to finish the summer with Lebron James or Chris Paul on the roster. Or even Tim Thomas or Darren Collison. As it is, unless you are a Roddy believer, you're looking at the same misfits and holes as last year. Maybe Carlisle has learned something.

jthig32 · 09-20-2010, 03:30 PM

Playing Marion at power forward isn't really playing him out of position. In fact Marion has historically been a far better player when playing him at power forward.

There's no doubt that this team doesn't quite fit together just right. Life would be much simpler if Butler were a real shooting guard.

But it's not a terrible fit either, and having players that can play multiple positions isn't a terrible thing.

SeriousSummer · 09-20-2010, 03:38 PM

It would be even better if Butler were a combo guard. Just change Butler out for Hinrich, and suddenly the team looks a lot better.

Now when Kidd sits down, Hinrich plays the point with either Terry or Beaubois at shooting guard. That's a heck of a lot better than playing either of them with Barea.

Rick41 · 09-20-2010, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

Marion: No offensive game

You honestly don't believe that, do you?

AngieO41 · 09-20-2010, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bernardos70

Doesn't quite remind me of the Dirk/Jamison/Walker era... in fact, I don't agree with your assessment at all, though I am finding it very difficult to get excited about this next season. This felt like an extremely long summer.

For me in particular, it could have been due to the fact I'm investing more time into watching soccer again, the fact the world cup just ended.... but it could just as easily have to do with the fact that LeBron James and Chris Bosh are Wade's concubines now, or it could be that we had the DUST chip and failed to make any sort of meaningful impact in the summer market, or it could be that our team is mostly unchanged, and our best players are getting older and older.... I don't know exactly, I can't pinpoint it.

I guess I just need the season to get underway again for me to get into it again, because right now my interest in basketball in general is at an all time low. I'm speaking only for myself here.

Ummm, living and working in Miami doesn't help things either. All of this Miami Heat bullcrap will be shoved in our faces every friggin day.

I just hope that people are more into the University of Miami football than the Miami Heat, or this will be a looooooooong season.

tcat075 · 09-20-2010, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeriousSummer

Here is, in general, what I think the Mavs need to do:

Trade Terry, Barea and Butler (and any of Stevenson, Jones, Mahinni or Ajinca needed to make the deals work) for a taller back up point guard, a normal size shooting guard (or one combo guard) and back ups for small forward and power forward.

That ought to be doable because the Mavs don't need great players at these positions--the startes, Kidd, Beaubois, Marion, Dirk and Haywood/Chandler, are set. The Mavs need capable, appropriate back ups, not stars.

Size isn't everything (tell that to the women!).

I'll take a player a few inches below the normal height if he's more talented any day over a regular sized, less skilled player.

Anyway, its not like we're small team overall. How many teams can boast of starting two 7 footers at PF and C and have the primary backup C also be 7 feet? Not that many.

tcat075 · 09-20-2010, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

The main problem of the Mavs over the years were that we dont have much "complete" players, solid on both ends of the court. We have too many players with major leaks.

Kidd: Cant defend PGs. Scores just from downtown
Terry: Cant defend anyone. Scores just with the jumper
Barea: Cant defend anyone.
Marion: No offensive game
Haywood/Chandler: Limited offensive game
Dirk: Need a good defensive center beside him

Comparing this with other contender, their main guys are much more solid and better on both ends of the court.

That's why Butler is being vastly underrated on this team. He plays solid defense, even guarding superstars for stretches if needed, without the tendancy of picking up fouls, and he can score in several different ways on offense (well...kind of).

I've been saying this, and I still believe that Butler will have a bounce back year and truly be Dirk's "Robin". Its just so hard for me to believe that a 29 year old just lost it last year, and does not have the ability to drive and finish anymore. And for some reason, the plays I remember working for Butler when we first traded for him seemed to be phased out as the season went on. Maybe the coaches just need to integrate him into the playbook.

Rick41 · 09-20-2010, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcat075

Anyway, its not like we're small team overall. How many teams can boast of starting two 7 footers at PF and C and have the primary backup C also be 7 feet? Not that many.

It won't be that way for long. I'm sure Ajinca will be traded eventually. (maybe even for a backup PF behind Dirk) But just having Dirk, Wood and Chandler to throw out there is good enough for me to battle the "size, skill and strength" as they praise the Lakers for having.

tcat075 · 09-20-2010, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick41

It won't be that way for long. I'm sure Ajinca will be traded eventually. (maybe even for a backup PF behind Dirk) But just having Dirk, Wood and Chandler to throw out there is good enough for me to battle the "size, skill and strength" as they praise the Lakers for having.

Not sure what you mean about Ajinca...yes, he'll probably be traded, but Dirk and Haywood are 7-0 and Chandler is 7-1. That's the trio I was talking about. But yeah, I like our size against the Lakers, at least defending them (and how can you go wrong with Dirk on offense?

).

SMC0007 · 09-20-2010, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcat075

Not sure what you mean about Ajinca...yes, he'll probably be traded, but Dirk and Haywood are 7-0 and Chandler is 7-1. That's the trio I was talking about. But yeah, I like our size against the Lakers, at least defending them (and how can you go wrong with Dirk on offense?

).

Yeah, it's not so much the size I'm worried about, it's the differential in talent, experience and ability. I really don't think we can defend them that well. Lamar causes major problems. Maybe we get a game against them in the regular season but hopefully we wouldn't face them until the WCF's. As currently constructed and judging from last years playoffs, I wouldn't bet my own money that we could beat them without Kobe.

Heavy Jon · 09-20-2010, 06:59 PM

The Mavs may sign Brian Cardinal.

tcat075 · 09-20-2010, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Yeah, it's not so much the size I'm worried about, it's the differential in talent, experience and ability. I really don't think we can defend them that well. Lamar causes major problems. Maybe we get a game against them in the regular season but hopefully we wouldn't face them until the WCF's. As currently constructed and judging from last years playoffs, I wouldn't bet my own money that we could beat them without Kobe.

Well, I think the size is one of the Lakers biggest assets. Gasol and Bynum are both forces offensively and defensively, each being 7 feet, and they can play together. Most teams have a seven footer, but its not very often that a team has two that can play together. That's why Dirk/Haywood/Chandler is nice, because they can match those two (and 6'10" Odom) at the same time, not having to designate a 7 footer to one or the other.

Of course, it would be nicer if Dirk was a defensive force, but I like our bigs matching up evenly with the Laker bigs, with Dirk making up for the lack of creative offense for the Haywood/Chandler. That means the key is that the front court must match Kobe. That's tough; not impossible, but tough.

But we beat them without Kobe. I know they had a pretty good record without him during that brief injury stretch, but as long as our bigs can match their bigs, we've got more talent in the front court than they do.

Rick41 · 09-20-2010, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heavy Jon

The Mavs may sign Brian Cardinal.

LonghornDub · 09-21-2010, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

The main problem of the Mavs over the years were that we dont have much "complete" players, solid on both ends of the court. We have too many players with major leaks.

Kidd: Cant defend PGs. Scores just from downtown
Terry: Cant defend anyone. Scores just with the jumper
Barea: Cant defend anyone.
Marion: No offensive game
Haywood/Chandler: Limited offensive game
Dirk: Need a good defensive center beside him

Comparing this with other contender, their main guys are much more solid and better on both ends of the court.

I agree that we don't have a lot of "complete," two-way players, but strongly disagree that that's somehow unusual or different than the rest of the NBA. I've said it before and I'll say it again--every single player in the NBA outside of the very, very elite class of players has significant weaknesses. Once you start moving further down the list, where 80% plus of a team's roster falls, you're going to consistently see less and less "complete" players. If you're a "complete" player in the NBA, you're freaking good. Like, 1 or 2 max per team good.

Other than maybe the Lakers, no team has significantly more "complete" players than the Mavs. The issue is really just perception bias (which is another thing I've said many times on here)--we as fans are much more attuned to the weaknesses of our guys than the weaknesses of other teams' guys. At the same time, we tend to notice other guys' strengths more readily because that's what hurts us when we play against them ("Damn, Aldridge is hitting everything!"). For every "Jason Terry can't defend and is too small" on this board, there's a "JR Smith is a shot-chucker and a ballhog" on a Nuggets board or a "Tony Parker can't pass and sucks at free throws" on SpursCircleJerk.com

The Mavs don't have the most talented roster in the NBA, and they're probably not in the top 5, but they're definitely in the top 10. We have as many "complete" players as we need, we just need to fill in the critical gap or 2 in the team's makeup and to play like we've got a pair for 48 minutes every game.

dalmations202 · 09-21-2010, 02:09 PM

I am not sure I agree with the statement that " I don't like" this team. I will agree that the ones you listed are the make it or break it people, but there is a little sense to it.

Kidd
Beaubois, Barea, Terry
Butler, Marion
Dirk
Haywood, Chandler

If you play Kidd, Kidd can't guard the quicker PG's today, so you have to have a waterbug type PG -- hence Roddy. Against many teams Kidd will be the SG on D and the PG on O and Roddy reversing that.

Dirk is your stud, and can score on anyone anytime. He is not a good off the ball defender and cannot defend the rim though. Hence the need for a Haywood and Chandler. (Any offense either of them give you is pure gravy).

That leaves the SF position. We have Marion - who can guard the other teams stud, if it is a SG/SF type, and play some backup PF, and Butler who is a little better than avg on both sides of the court.

Overall this is a good team.

Minor problem.... no inside scoring. Terry is a good zone buster - sometimes (streaky like most jump shooters). And putting Terry, Berrea, or Roddy together makes you undersized.

This team will be good, but it is missing the easy buckets that force bigs to stay inside, and would give Dirk the room outside. That inside guy can't be a C because there aren't but 2-3 that could help Dirk anyway, and they aren't available. That leaves it to the SF to be able to score inside consistently (ie be a true threat that requires a double) and be able to guard the SF position at least (if not the SG/SF).

Anyone available that will fill that role, and Dallas can get?

Usually Lurkin · 09-21-2010, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalmations202

Minor problem.... no inside scoring. Terry is a good zone buster - sometimes (streaky like most jump shooters). And putting Terry, Berrea, or Roddy together makes you undersized.

This problem might be more than minor (and scoring from Haywood/Chandler is more than gravy), but the more general problem might be lack of a second scorer altogether. Maybe Butler, like Josh, can do that if we can keep him at SF, rather than forcing him to SG. But you're right, inside scoring would solve a lot of issues for this team.

Quote:

That inside guy can't be a C because there aren't but 2-3 that could help Dirk anyway, and they aren't available.

anyone is available for the right price. For instance, what would it cost to go back in time to pick up Kaman or Shaq for last year? Or maybe Al Jefferson for this year?

SMC0007 · 09-21-2010, 02:51 PM

Cue all the "inside scoring is way over rated" goofs.

dalmations202 · 09-21-2010, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

This problem might be more than minor (and scoring from Haywood/Chandler is more than gravy), but the more general problem might be lack of a second scorer altogether. Maybe Butler, like Josh, can do that if we can keep him at SF, rather than forcing him to SG. But you're right, inside scoring would solve a lot of issues for this team.

anyone is available for the right price. For instance, what would it cost to go back in time to pick up Kaman or Shaq for last year? Or maybe Al Jefferson for this year?

Inside scoring would take the pressure off Dirk, and allow for cutters - forcing zone defenses, and allowing people like Terry to go off.

I am not sure that Kaman or Al would be the answer, as they don't play enough D to be the last line of defense beside Dirk, IMO. Shaq pre-2006 would be perfect, of course so would DHoward or Yao or even TD, but those guys are hard to come by.

I still remember the Aguirre days when a SF posted up, and Perkins was the PF shooting the 3's -- Dallas was quite good back then as well. So I still think a SF that can post up, would be a good addition. Problem is - that guy still has to be able to guard the quick SF's today, and that is one big issue. Just not many guys who can do that.

Usually Lurkin · 09-21-2010, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalmations202

I am not sure that Kaman or Al would be the answer, as they don't play enough D to be the last line of defense beside Dirk, IMO..

Along with Haywood on the depth chart, we'd have alternatives at center, a 1-2 punch. As is, we've got more of a 1-1 punch at center.

tcat075 · 09-21-2010, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

Along with Haywood on the depth chart, we'd have alternatives at center, a 1-2 punch. As is, we've got more of a 1-1 punch at center.

Yes we would have a better offensive punch, but Jefferson combined with Dirk would be awful defensively. I know you can argue that Jefferson and Dirk would outscore any other two bigs they went up against, but on defense its not just the bigs, its every single opposing player that drives into the lane and finishes relatively easily because neither Dirk or Jefferson are above the rim defensive presences. Just relying on Haywood to be that guy who racks up blocks isn't enough, because we don't have a backup 4 who does that either (and the guys we're looking to sign aren't even as good as, say, Brandon Bass on defense). The lack of defense in the lane would allow guards to score way more on us by penetrating and finishing. Maybe if we had a solid back court that could help contain penetration, then Jefferson could work, but we don't.

SeriousSummer · 09-21-2010, 07:12 PM

It's not just the inside scoring I'm worried about, it's the guard play. Kidd shouldn't play more than 24 to 30 minutes per game in the regular season.

But the only back up point we've got is Barea, and he's a terrible combination with either Beaubois or Terry--way too short to defend most teams.

So if you play Barea at point many minutes, then you really need a decent size shooting guard, which I guess means Butler. But I still think he is much better at the small forward than shooting guard, so I don't like that either.

If the Mavs had either a legitimate (in size and skill) shooting guard to pair with Barea, or a bigger back up point guard, then the team balance would be much better.

Dirk requires a good defensive center to play with him, but the Mavs don't have one that also has any offense. Marion can't make his own shot and neither can Kidd. So a lot of line ups have only two scorers, Dirk and whoever is at the two guard.

If you have Butler at the three, then you have three scorers and you're in business. That's ok when Kidd is at point to pair with one of our midgets, but when Kidd is out, then it's a problem.

Kidd Karma · 09-21-2010, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeriousSummer

It's not just the inside scoring I'm worried about, it's the guard play. Kidd shouldn't play more than 24 to 30 minutes per game in the regular season.

But the only back up point we've got is Barea, and he's a terrible combination with either Beaubois or Terry--way too short to defend most teams.

So if you play Barea at point many minutes, then you really need a decent size shooting guard, which I guess means Butler. But I still think he is much better at the small forward than shooting guard, so I don't like that either.

If the Mavs had either a legitimate (in size and skill) shooting guard to pair with Barea, or a bigger back up point guard, then the team balance would be much better.

Dirk requires a good defensive center to play with him, but the Mavs don't have one that also has any offense. Marion can't make his own shot and neither can Kidd. So a lot of line ups have only two scorers, Dirk and whoever is at the two guard.

If you have Butler at the three, then you have three scorers and you're in business. That's ok when Kidd is at point to pair with one of our midgets, but when Kidd is out, then it's a problem.

Barea would be nice, as a backup to Kidd, 5 years ago. He can't go out there play 20-24 a night. I think Cuban is being cheap here, there I said it. I mean Barea is a good backup at 10-12, he's actually a good value at 10-12 a night and stepping in on a pinch. We can't count on him night in and night out. That's the one thing they should have addressed with the MLE or a trade exception. I think we should address the spot, move Boobs to the 2 full time. Maybe they see something in Jones, but this is Carlisle......

tcat075 · 09-21-2010, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeriousSummer

It's not just the inside scoring I'm worried about, it's the guard play. Kidd shouldn't play more than 24 to 30 minutes per game in the regular season.

But the only back up point we've got is Barea, and he's a terrible combination with either Beaubois or Terry--way too short to defend most teams.

So if you play Barea at point many minutes, then you really need a decent size shooting guard, which I guess means Butler. But I still think he is much better at the small forward than shooting guard, so I don't like that either.

If the Mavs had either a legitimate (in size and skill) shooting guard to pair with Barea, or a bigger back up point guard, then the team balance would be much better.

Dirk requires a good defensive center to play with him, but the Mavs don't have one that also has any offense. Marion can't make his own shot and neither can Kidd. So a lot of line ups have only two scorers, Dirk and whoever is at the two guard.

If you have Butler at the three, then you have three scorers and you're in business. That's ok when Kidd is at point to pair with one of our midgets, but when Kidd is out, then it's a problem.

But you do realize that despite Barea's faults, he's a creator and a scorer. When he's on the floor, he can help provide offense in conjunction with a more defensive, less talented scoring 2 guard. Of course, the biggest problem is we don't really have one of those, but perhaps if Butler is moved down to the 2 and we play Marion while Barea is in the game for Kidd that could work.

Now that I really write this out and think about it, though, I understand your reasoning. It makes sense...it'd be nice if Jones could give some rotation minutes with Barea as the two backcourt guards (you don't really need to label one "PG", they can take turns), because he's a physical guy who can play defense, but that's a lot to expect from the kid.

kg_veteran · 09-21-2010, 10:05 PM

I tend to agree with the general thrust of what Serious Summer is saying. The team still has the same problems as last year. I also agree with UL. Unless you're counting on Beaubois to be the guy that fills the second scorer role, I don't know how you have much hope for this team to go very far in the playoffs. FWIW, I think Roddy will do a pretty good job of it, but I don't think that he'll be given the minutes that we want to see, nor do I think he'll be consistent enough as a second year player to carry the offensive load that he needs to carry.

That said, the two main keys to the season are starting Butler and Beaubois at the SF and SG, respectively. A bench of Marion, Terry, Chandler, and a limited dose of Jones should be just fine.

If Barea gets more than mop-up minutes or if Terry gets 30+ mpg, I may lose my mind for good.

Usually Lurkin · 09-21-2010, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcat075

Yes we would have a better offensive punch, but Jefferson combined with Dirk would be awful defensively.

Rearguing useless arguments can't be as incredibly usefull as it was the first time around, but with Jefferson backing up Haywood and backing up Dirk, our backcourt is Dirk/Haywood, Dirk/Jefferson, and Jefferson/Haywood. That's what, 10-15 minutes of Jefferson at center, and you could put Marion/Jefferson on if you need defense, and Dirk gets more rest. You'll always have a scoring big man on the floor. Always. I like that better than Marion/Haywood or Marion/Chandler that we have now, because when Dirk sits, scoring has to come from Butler/Terry/Beaubois. And I don't trust this coach with their talents.

fluid.forty.one · 09-21-2010, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

I tend to agree with the general thrust of what Serious Summer is saying. The team still has the same problems as last year. I also agree with UL. Unless you're counting on Beaubois to be the guy that fills the second scorer role, I don't know how you have much hope for this team to go very far in the playoffs. FWIW, I think Roddy will do a pretty good job of it, but I don't think that he'll be given the minutes that we want to see, nor do I think he'll be consistent enough as a second year player to carry the offensive load that he needs to carry.

That said, the two main keys to the season are starting Butler and Beaubois at the SF and SG, respectively. A bench of Marion, Terry, Chandler, and a limited dose of Jones should be just fine.

If Barea gets more than mop-up minutes or if Terry gets 30+ mpg, I may lose my mind for good.

Terry said recently that Coach told him that his role will not change next season...

SMC0007 · 09-21-2010, 11:35 PM

In DOjo I trust.

41mvp · 09-22-2010, 06:31 AM

I don't know why you don't like our team.We have now the best players in our history.You don't like Dirk,Kidd or Butler ?I don't understand you.

kg_veteran · 09-22-2010, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

Terry said recently that Coach told him that his role will not change next season...

Terry should be relegated to limited backup minutes. He can't be counted on in the playoffs. How about this in the backcourt?

Kidd 28 - Beaubois 20
Beaubois 15 - Jones 15 - Terry 18

tcat075 · 09-22-2010, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

Rearguing useless arguments can't be as incredibly usefull as it was the first time around, but with Jefferson backing up Haywood and backing up Dirk, our backcourt is Dirk/Haywood, Dirk/Jefferson, and Jefferson/Haywood. That's what, 10-15 minutes of Jefferson at center, and you could put Marion/Jefferson on if you need defense, and Dirk gets more rest. You'll always have a scoring big man on the floor. Always. I like that better than Marion/Haywood or Marion/Chandler that we have now, because when Dirk sits, scoring has to come from Butler/Terry/Beaubois. And I don't trust this coach with their talents.

Well, yes, its a tired argument. I'm not going to disagree, bringing Jefferson in as a backup would have made the team better. In theory, you also bring in a defensive minded backup 4 (or play Marion there) and Jefferson gets no more than 8 minutes a game with Dirk on the floor, because as I said, those two don't defend the rim at all and people could score in the lane with ease, but yes it would be the improvement. There are minutes for him to play without having to play with Dirk for any length of time.

Unfortunately, its not always 100% about talent. Jefferson has had an injury history, and even worse, he's being paid like 40 million. For someone who would come in and be the backup center and for the most part be unable to play with the superstar centerpiece on your team, it just wasn't worth it. Instead, they opted to go with a more defensive center who could play with Dirk (and has the bonus ability of being a nice trade chip). That's why they now have the ability to look at backup 4s who can do nothing but shoot the ball, because there are other defenders to pair them with. (Personally, I'd love to add someone like Brandon Bass who can do a little of both, but I also understand we need someone who spreads the floor and can fill it up, so whatever.Mahoney also had a nice article on that. too lazy to post the actual link, but there's his site and it should be the first article)

Until you can convince me that opposing guards couldn't finish at will against Dirk and Jefferson, I just don't see Jefferson fitting well for his money. As a fan, I do wish they'd done the move, money be damned, because like I said it does improve the team a little. But its Cubes money, not mine, so its much easier for me to spend it, I'm sure.

tcat075 · 09-22-2010, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

Terry should be relegated to limited backup minutes. He can't be counted on in the playoffs. How about this in the backcourt?

Kidd 28 - Beaubois 20
Beaubois 15 - Jones 15 - Terry 18

Well, yes and no.

I'm assuming this is the regular season rotation, and it won't work. Terry, despite being the chucker and defensive sieve he is, was the 6th man two years ago and the Mavs second leading scorer last year. I've lobbied for less minutes (actually, I lobbied to get him off the team, but that never happened), but 18 is too few. Last year, he played 33 minutes a game. If he gets some where between 5-10 minutes less this year, I'll be happy. He will have to, because Roddy isn't ready to play 35 a game. That's borderline superstar numbers, and though we think he may get to that stage, here and now, coming off an injury to begin the season, that would just be overwhelming. And we both know that while its a cute idea to play with, 15 minutes for Jones is like Roddy: too much too soon.

As a postseason rotation, I'd love this rotation. Roddy (and maybe Jones) will be ready then, and Terry makes me want to vomit in the playoffs, so please, let him take JET's minutes. Kidd probably gets a few more, Jones a few less, but phasing Barea out in most situations isn't a terrible idea (even though he is vastly undervalued for what he does, even by me) when it gets to be crunch time and the playoffs.

Underdog · 09-22-2010, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcat075

Unfortunately, its not always 100% about talent. Jefferson has had an injury history, and even worse, he's being paid like 40 million. For someone who would come in and be the backup center and for the most part be unable to play with the superstar centerpiece on your team, it just wasn't worth it.

You talk as if there's a salary cap in the NBA - I thought we were living in NBA2k, where giving $40mil to a guy who's going to back-up your superstar totally makes sense...