I am thinking...

[Chiwas]

With Dampier and keeping Nash the Mavs would have been harder to beat, would have been real contenders. I'm not sure if Nellie will find the answer for the puzzle he has today with so many options, with so little jelling or practice; the past has showed that he needs much time.

Trading Walker or Jamison for getting the money for Nash, whatsoever.

The point is, the Mavs only needed Dampier. Am I having too much expectation on Damp? Maybe, but I'm very concerned about all the mess that has to be arranged with so many new players inluding several rookies.

[V2M]

When we lost Nash for nothing, I was quite upset. Now that I see the complete team, I feel the loss of Nash could be a "blessing in disguise". He was a great player on the offensive end but struggled on the defensive end. Come playoffs, he runs out of gas and plays fatigued.

With Terry, Damp and Stack as significant additions, chemistry concerns are real but hopefully we'll figure it out by all-star game just like MIN in 03-04 and SA in 02-03 who had also added several starters those years.

[EricaLubarsky]

Maybe, but I'm very concerned about all the mess that has to be arranged with so many new players inluding several rookies.

Having the incredible amount of young talent is what gives me hope for the future. It is far from a problem. We certainly didn't need to acquire the young guys, but I don't see any legitimate scenario where their acquisition would be a problem or concern.

[Drbio]

I think I agree with EL. Plus, Damp would not be here if Nashie still were.

Nash leaving will eventually be looked upon as a great day in Mavericks history.

[bernardos70]

This team has completely changed its mentality. At the very least, the roster was overhauled to accomodate that change in mentality. I also tend to think we'd be better off keeping Nash and getting Dampier, but I'm not terribly upset about losing Nash now we have a center that will receive PT and a PG I've been told plays defense (either way, he can't be worse than Nash, but I hope he's a substantial upgrade on the defensive end).

All of us have doubts about Nellie. It'll become very apparent if he isn't a coach that can take this team as far as it wants to go (NBA Championship). Nellie is on check more than ever before. Sure it'll take time to mesh, and that will be visible, but it'll definitely be even mmore visible if this team is just going the wrong direction. You can tell those two scenarios apart.

[sike]

but I don't see any legitimate scenario where their acquisition would be a problem or concern.

scenario 1: the young guys all prove to be The cannibals and they eat the rest of the team

Scenario 2: they are spies sent to learn all of big Bill’s practice plans and are only using the bball thing as a cover

Scenario 3: they are all devout worshippers of Satan and only the sacrifice of a seven foot white male with a killer outside shot will appease their Dark Lord, the great beast

ohhhhhhhh, you said "legitimate" concerns....

give 'em time and all will come together.

[Chiwas]

It's not bad to invest on the future, the problem with the Mavs, Cuban or Nellie or both, is that the young would need to stay for several season, AND TO PLAY. I think Daniels and Howard have proved that they can play, but you can't assure that they won't be traded in a year or before, much less the other rookies.

Nellie has proved that he can build a strong team but after several seasons. He is starting almost from zero this time again. Without Nash the two other Big Three have to adapt to a new system; and you still need a leader to build a system on. What is the rest of the once articulated team? only Bradley.

[grndmstr_c]

Last year was a mess. Unless some unforseen trade materializes to jack things up I don't see this as a mess. Good starting unit. Deep and quality bench. Good positional balance. Full training camp for the players to learn the system and one another, and for the coaching staff to figure out how to best use the new players. There will be an adjustment period, but the team should have a very high ceiling for success, and all indications are that they will be given an extended opportunity to realize their potential.

[sike]

I tend to agree with C, unless Murphy's law really strikes this team hard, all arrows are pointing up. The team is one of the deepest teams in the league at the 2/3/5 positions....they have addressed the defensive need and the center need while adding young talent for the future...even for a realist this team looks to be headed in the right direction.

[EricaLubarsky]

I agree that we are deep at the 2 and 3, but the depth at the 5 is based completely on the utter lack of depth that other teams have there.

Dampier/Booth is really all we have at the 5. I'm optimistic about M'Benga's ability to play, but I dont know if he will see much time. We really don't need any more than the hard play of Dampier and the competent backup minutes of Booth.
If Henderson comes back to 02-03 numbers, he will be a more than competent backup for Dirk
If Harris comes through, we may have one of the more potent 1-2 punches at the point too.

Stackhouse is the only real concern, because everyone else either has the right attitude coming into the season or is getting everything they want. I have a feeling that Stack will really contribute well, too. He was coachable in college. I havent heard any reports that have said the opposite since he went pro.

Henderson wants to prove to himself and the world that he still is talented and able. He's also been known as a great guy.
Booth has a great spirit, has gotten used to around 20min/game and just wants to contribute how he can
Terry has something to prove and has been given the ultimate toolset to work with.
Daniels and Howard already proved that they can shine as stars in limited minutes, and will do whatever they can to work themselves in.
Nowitzki will get all the minutes he can use and if you doubt him, you don't know Dirk.
Harris is a rookie and can't expect anything. He went through college and learned there that first year players don't play much.
Bradley will continue to take his abuse by Nelson like a gentleman
Avery will bring everyone together
Esch will wave his towel if he makes it into the season.

[grndmstr_c]

EL, we do have that Shawn Bradley fellow. I mean, I'm sure it was deliberate that you left him out but I'm not entirely sure why.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c
EL, we do have that Shawn Bradley fellow. I mean, I'm sure it was deliberate that you left him out but I'm not entirely sure why.

don't be so sure. It could have easily been one of the countless brain farts that I have daily.

That does give us more potential depth at the 5. Will Nellie actualize that potential? Dunno. Actually when I throw in Bradley we have a starter and two very competent backup centers which is best in the West, which undermines my whole last comment.

[FreshJive]

"With Dampier and keeping Nash the Mavs would have been harder to beat"

No doubt Chiwas. This is what I have been thinking ever since the Dampier trade was announced. I bought the whole future financial flexibility BS and then Cubes drops the Big Dump on us. If you are willing to risk your money on a contract year phenom to go for a championship, then why not pony up for a proven commodity and hedge your championship bet? However, Terry is who I would have chosen out of the available replacements, and if he works out while Nash comes up gimpy the rest of his career, then Cuban looks like a genius.

[Chef Ed]

It's one of those things that can't be understood until a year or so down the road. In fact we may see the real effect of all of this by Xmas. There are always going to posters that feel that losing Nash was a huge mistake and there will also be those who feel that Dampier may be the key to the Championship.

I like the infusion of youth amoung the vetrans on this team. It does make the future very bright, but until these youngsters show what they can do and start to contribute on a game to game basis then this season may end up being a struggle for the team and the fans.

Time will tell. I am very optimistic about the future of the team, but am very skeptical about this season. Again Xmas will be a very good time for fans to get a real feel for what this team is about. With the schedule the way it is in Jan. it could be either a very fun time or a very frustrating time. So we will see.

[mavs1980]

Everyone who says that we will not be a good team without Nash makes me sick.

Don't get me wrong...I love Nash! Love him! Loved everything he did for our mavs and all the energy and circus shots he brought to every game!!!

BUT...Jason Terry is TONS better than Nash! Let's face it.....Dirk made Nash's career. Plus....Nash played hard but was always complaining of how tired he was! And he would always complain about being tired right before the playoffs started. Perfect timing there guy!

Terry is just as good of scorer...a lot better defender...and like what Dirk did for Nash....the same will be done for Terry.


Don't doubt Terry 1 bit! Cause by the 2nd or 3rd week of the season....you won't even remember who Steve Nash is.


And book that!

[Male30Dan]

Originally posted by: mavs1980
Everyone who says that we will not be a good team without Nash makes me sick.

Don't get me wrong...I love Nash! Love him! Loved everything he did for our mavs and all the energy and circus shots he brought to every game!!!

BUT...Jason Terry is TONS better than Nash! Let's face it.....Dirk made Nash's career. Plus....Nash played hard but was always complaining of how tired he was! And he would always complain about being tired right before the playoffs started. Perfect timing there guy!

Terry is just as good of scorer...a lot better defender...and like what Dirk did for Nash....the same will be done for Terry.


Don't doubt Terry 1 bit! Cause by the 2nd or 3rd week of the season....you won't even remember who Steve Nash is.


And book that!

Congratulations...

I never thought anyone would surpass Madape's record for underrating a player's abilities, but you just did!!! We won't remember who Nash is??? My lord!

[madape]

For the record, I don't underestimate Nash's ability to help this team. I think it is insane to state that his departure is good for the Mavs. I predict that Dallas will be a borderline lottery team for the next two to three years, and the main reason why is that we let Nash go and only replaced him with average NBA starters. Nash was the lifeblood of this team. Without him, we are a bunch of life-less losers.

As for the implied charge that I underestimate Dampier, I don't think I do. He's a worthless piece of crap with one decent year of rebounding. Hell, two years ago the majority of Maverick fans wouldn't trade Wang Zhi Zhi for him! He's still the same player! The day we committed $80M , seven years, two first round draft picks and Eduardo Najera for this piece of crap is the second darkest day this franchise has had since Roy Tarpley's first expulsion.

The #1 darkest day since Tarpley was the day Cuban decided to lowball Steve Nash.

[mavs1980]

Originally posted by: Male23Dan

Ok...we will remember Nash. Is that what you want???

My whole point is that Terry will take us farther than Nash did.


You still think about Emmitt everyday too?

Congratulations...

I never thought anyone would surpass Madape's record for underrating a player's abilities, but you just did!!! We won't remember who Nash is??? My lord!

OK....we will always remember Nash. Is that what you want???

My whole point there is Terry will take this team farther than Nash could.


Do you still wish Emmitt were on the Cowboys?

[V2M]

Originally posted by: Male23Dan

Congratulations...

I never thought anyone would surpass Madape's record for underrating a player's abilities, but you just did!!! We won't remember who Nash is??? My lord!

Beware... Terry's play would cause 'selective amnesia' in all those that watch him. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[Male30Dan]

1980,

To compare Nash to Emmitt is like comparing De La Hoya to Tyson... One might be old and losing his abilities, but the other is WAY past his prime!!!

Also, to say that Terry can take this team WAY further than Nash could will never be provable... Both are talented, both are better than the other at certain things, and both had VERY DIFFERENT teams... The team Terry will lead into battle this year has turned 180 degrees from the one that Nash led last year...

[mavs1980]

Very true.

Having said that....


If you were the GM of a team starting from scratch (damn near what the Mavs did)....and you had 2 PG's to choose from.....who would you chose? Terry or Nash.


As much as I love Nash and everything he did here for us, Terry is gonna take it to the next level.


He's younger....full of more energy....can play a hell of a lot more minutes at the same pace as Nash (if not at a faster pace) without complaining about being tired all the time....CHEAPER....plays A LOT better defense....can still run the pick'n'roll/pop as good as Nash....as good as scorer if not better than Nash....etc.

The only thing that Terry doesn't have (yet) is the knowledge of the offense. But that will come with time. AND apparently....he's already in town working out. Hopefully he's studying his tail off too!


Players tend to play a little harder and give that extra little effort when they are playing for a team they know can win a championship.

[Male30Dan]

Originally posted by: mavs1980
Very true.

Having said that....


If you were the GM of a team starting from scratch (damn near what the Mavs did)....and you had 2 PG's to choose from.....who would you chose? Terry or Nash.


As much as I love Nash and everything he did here for us, Terry is gonna take it to the next level.


He's younger....full of more energy....can play a hell of a lot more minutes at the same pace as Nash (if not at a faster pace) without complaining about being tired all the time....CHEAPER....plays A LOT better defense....can still run the pick'n'roll/pop as good as Nash....as good as scorer if not better than Nash....etc.

The only thing that Terry doesn't have (yet) is the knowledge of the offense. But that will come with time. AND apparently....he's already in town working out. Hopefully he's studying his tail off too!


Players tend to play a little harder and give that extra little effort when they are playing for a team they know can win a championship.

That is a good question; however, it is one that I will wait to answer after having seen Terry in action...

Sure, Terry is younger, cheaper, and more athletic; however, he doesn't have the court vision, the passing ability, or the chemistry that Nash had with this team... He may develop one or more of those over time here, but currently he is lacking in those areas compared to Nash. Also, it's easy to claim that Terry can run the pick'n'roll/pop as good as Nash, but frankly, you have no idea if this is true or not... I mean how could you know, as Terry and Dirk have NEVER played together on an NBA court...

I know Terry is a talent, but a true pass first point guard he is not... He is out of the Stephon/Gilbert/Chauncey mold that may or may not be good for this team... We will just have to see if the hype about Terry being able to transform into a selfless passing point guard is true now that he has weapons all around him!!!

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally posted by: madape
I think it is insane to state that his departure is good for the Mavs. I predict that Dallas will be a borderline lottery team for the next two to three years

Want to make a friendly wager on that? We could have two seperate bets for the next two years?

Say, a 50 dollar wager to go to DM.com for each season. I pay D-M.com if we are a "borderline lottery" team, and you pay if we exceed that (but we'll need specific numbers so you won't say that a 5th seed finish is borderline. )

[EricaLubarsky]

and my .02$ on Nash. Nash had tremendous court vision which wasn't matched by anyone in the league, save Kidd. He is/was the best pure jump-shooting PG in the league, and he had the style of Pistol Pete. That baing said, he brought no defense to the team and we really didn't need someone as good as Nash. Why would we need elite court vision with Nowitzki and Finley who make their own shots. There were actually very few times when Nash found players other than those two open. He found Nowitzki for a dunk, but he rarely found other players open.

Will we miss him? Yes. Will we be worse for losing him? I think the jury is out on that, but terry brings a good contract, youth, athleticism, leadership and defense to the team. If Terry plays his heart out every night like Nash did, I think we very much will think that Terry is an upgrade on Nash. We'll miss the shenanigans and the show that Nash had.

We may even fail to notice that we have a defender capable of guarding the quickest 6 footers, but Finley won't. He won't look so defensively weak when he is defending a Doug Christie instead of a Mike Bibby (when Nash can't even pretend to defend Bibby).

[dirk2003]

And we will have a PG that can DUNK!!!!

[Drbio]

Nash blows chunks.























sadly.......Chunks is my dog.

[ISmellmyTshirts]

Its funny this nash terry comparisons/contrasts...

A couple seasons ago, the hawks were showing film of nash to terry with the hope that he would pick up the nuancesof point guard. Specifically how to run an offense and how to be aggressive with your shot while still remaining a true point. Terry's response was along the lines of 'I'm not steve nash, I'm jason terry'. Which is fine.

I'll agree that whatever tangible short comings terry has on the offensive end, he'll make up for it on the other end of the court.
But it will be interesting to see if terry can run the offense, control the tempo, and be a leader the way steve was.

[Captain Disaster]

I truly hope that your optimism becomes the reality, EL; it's really hard not to side with Madape on this one. Warts and all on defense, we knew that Nash was a great shooter, clutch player, great playmaker, great ballhandler, etc... who always gave 110% and who won MANY games for us at crunch time. He was also surprisingly durable, and he elevated the games of those around him; the whole tempo of the game changes with Nash on the floor. I really want to believe that Dampier & Terry will fill the void, albeit in a totally different way, but that is asking alot. Nash is one of a small handful of points in the league that can truly change the game in their favor. Hopefully next year at this time, we'll be talking about how much of a genius Cuban is rather than suffering through another season like last year and talking about how much of a bonehead he is. Either way, the die has been cast: we're either moving in a very positive direction, or Mavs fans will be suffering for a long time.

[grndmstr_c]

it's really hard not to side with Madape on this one.

Personally, I find it quite easy not to side with Madape.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c

Personally, I find it quite easy not to side with Madape.

no trouble here either.

[sike]

CD said: it's really hard not to side with Madape on this one.

I personally find this comment alone damaging to monkey's argument. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[sike]

Originally posted by: EricaLubarskyThat does give us more potential depth at the 5. Will Nellie actualize that potential? Dunno. Actually when I throw in Bradley we have a starter and two very competent backup centers which is best in the West, which undermines my whole last comment.

good to hear....note to self...DON'T GET TOO CLOSE TO EL'S BRAIN.

[Cybertx]

I agree with EL and with chiwas i think we are making Terry someone in the Nash level which he's not, does he have the talent to be there maybe at the PG you can teach almost anything except court vision Terry has it but not to the extent of Nash but i think what Terry has it's enough for this team but i think what we are not given enough credit it's to the chemistry issue and how important in Nellie system it's the PG position, that's the only thing i'm worried about Terry he has never been a PG of the style of Nash/Kidd, he has always been more a scoring PG and his TO it's really high for this team.

In paper we are good really good but only Dirk and Finley of the starters know Nellie system. It's going take some time for everybody to start being a team.

[grndmstr_c]

that's the only thing i'm worried about Terry he has never been a PG of the style of Nash/Kidd, he has always been more a scoring PG and his TO it's really high for this team.

Nellie's system is very accomodating to scoring point guards. I loved Nash's passing, but it wasn't uncommon for him to fall in love with that aspect of his game to the detriment of the team. And Terry's TO's per 48 minutes last year at the point were virtually identical to Nash's. It remains to be seen how his numbers with the Hawks will translate on the Mavs, but at this point the stats do not support your contention that his TO's are "really high for this team".

[Max Power]

Originally posted by: Captain Disaster
it's really hard not to side with Madape on this one.

Borderline lottery team without Nash? Impossible. Without Dirk, likely but not Nash.

Warts and all on defense,

You can't describe THAT defensive play as having warts. Nash's defense is a full blown attack of Herpes.

we knew that Nash was a great shooter, clutch player, great playmaker, great ballhandler, etc... who always gave 110% and who won MANY games for us at crunch time.

Common misconception. Nash lost at LEAST three games for us last year by poor play in the final minutes of the game.

He was also surprisingly durable,

He played in a lot of games but that doesn't make him durable. He had no game left when the playoffs rolled around.

and he elevated the games of those around him; the whole tempo of the game changes with Nash on the floor.

It was a fun tempo - I'll grant you that. It wasn't a tempo that could win in the playoffs though.

I really want to believe that Dampier & Terry will fill the void, albeit in a totally different way, but that is asking alot. Nash is one of a small handful of points in the league that can truly change the game in their favor. Hopefully next year at this time, we'll be talking about how much of a genius Cuban is rather than suffering through another season like last year and talking about how much of a bonehead he is. Either way, the die has been cast: we're either moving in a very positive direction, or Mavs fans will be suffering for a long time.

We'll be fine. And I am still willing to bet Ape on the Mavs record next year. We will win no less than 50 games - probably a handfull more than that.

[Captain Disaster]

When Nash came out of the game last year, the offense would stagnate. If the lack of an additional scoring threat or penetrator who can dish allows other teams to double & triple team Dirk, it will be a long season. I find it amusing how my usual detractors are always lurking, waiting to criticize any opinion I propose!

However, Nash will not be easily replaced; any conjecture claiming that the Mavs will be better is just that: conjecture. There was a lot of this going on at the beginning of last season also as I recall. Let's just wait and have a look-see before we believe that the Mavs will automatically win 50+ games this year. Better to have lower expectations and be very pleasantly surprised than to have these super high expectations and be crushed if things go awry. Until this years team PROVES that they can win, it's pointless to insult people who are skeptical. After all, when have Terry & Dampier ever been winners? Who will run the point? Can Stackhouse accept less minutes without crying? Will Nellie make Stackhouse play less to develop Howard & Daniels? Who is our perimeter stopper? Who is Dirk's backup in the event of injury? Etc..., etc...

[EricaLubarsky]

any conjecture claiming that the Mavs will be better is just that: conjecture.

\

Umm, isnt saying that the Mavs will drop 3 seeds conjecture as well? Isn't saying that a competent point guard like Jason Terry will flop, conjecture?

[Male30Dan]

Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky

\

Umm, isnt saying that the Mavs will drop 3 seeds conjecture as well? Isn't saying that a competent point guard like Jason Terry will flop, conjecture?

You are trying to piss people off, tonight, eh Erica? Making negative statements about people's posts instead of saying something intelligent?

Kinda works both ways huh??? You cant knock me for knocking you and then expect to knock someone else without being knocked...

[EricaLubarsky]

Without lowering myself to that level, I think there is something to point out. I pointed out flaws in what CD said, which was the claim that it was only conjecture. You have twice stated things about the poster or about the way someone has posted.

Korny with a capital K...

about a post and not about the content

You are not exactly on a roll tonight Erica... Are you really comparing Jake to Bruno???

Damn!

again, just annoying.

please learn to understand the difference between a sarcastic comeback that stays on topic, and one that is annoying and completely off topic.

Don't get your little feelings hurt after I point out what a moronic statement that was... And FYI, you might not want to make it a habit of knocking others for NOT posting intelligent stuff when you ramble shit like "If he doesnt show some talent soon, he could be another Sundov."

.......

[Male30Dan]

Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
Without lowering myself to that level, I think there is something to point out. I pointed out flaws in what CD said, which was the claim that it was only conjecture. You have twice stated things about the poster or about the way someone has posted.

about a post and not about the content

again, just annoying.

please learn to understand the difference between a sarcastic comeback that stays on topic, and one that is annoying and completely off topic.

.......

Doc... If you are around, please let this moron know the true difference between sarcasm/me joking with you like we always do and me being an an annoying ass...

Regarding the post directed to YOU in the other thread... Hey, you make a dumbass statement, and Im gonna say: "Look over there, its a dumb ass statement!!!