R.I.P. To 'The Big Three'

[MavsFanFinley]

R.I.P. To 'The Big Three'
Mavs Stars Short On Nostalgic Numbers

By Mike Fisher -- DallasBasketball.com

The Big Three is dead.

Once upon a time, there was The Big Three. And there was colleague Bob Ortegel noting that when The Big Three combined for 60 points in a game, the Mavs were unbeatable.
Suddenly, the Mavs are at least a little bit beatable. And maybe only coincidentally, guess how many times The Big Three – Michael Finley, Dirk Nowitzki and Steve Nash – have been the three top scorers and combined for 60 points in a game this season?
Try ‘zero.’
Saturday at American Airlines Center marked a slightly different flavor for Dallas. Not only was it a second straight victory, this time over the Grizzlies, 104-98. And not only did Nellie once again keep the rotation tighter than my Grandpa Fisher, a Depression-Era product who once gave to all us little grandkids as Christmas gifts some paperweights he’d pilfered from the office storage closet.
No, the biggest deal for me was that it felt like old times: The Big Three were the top three Mavs scorers – FOR THE FIRST TIME ALL SEASON!
And they still didn’t get to 60!
Now, I don’t want to Uncle Norm you to death with meaningless stats here. There are logical explanations. You’ve got your injuries, for instance. Michael Finley missed games when he might’ve pitched in his 20-plus and helped The Big Three combine for 60. Dirk Nowitzki has missed games, and played hurt in most of the others. And you’ve got your newcomers; The Big Three isn’t going to get enough shots to combine for 60 if the AnTwins, just to name two guys, are going to get enough shots for them to contribute what they are capable of.
Still, to an observer and fan of The Big Three, it’s a bit alarming to learn that after 29 games, they have never accomplished what was once a trademark hat trick of theirs.
It should be noted that The Magical 60 has been accomplished 16 times in the 29 outings. And, proving the new availability of weaponry, it should be noted that Nash, Walker, Dirk, Delk, Finley, Jamison and even Fortson have all shared the combine-for-60 wealth. (For the record, Dirk and Jamison have been there 10 times each, Walker nine times Nash eight times, Finley six times, Delk and Fortson once each.)
A more important number (and one that will have Coach O’s custom-made Lombardo suit all in a knot): In those 15 times when The Magical 60 has been achieved, Dallas is just 9-6.
Where once their was high scoring and infallibility, now there is high scoring and 9-6.
Does any of this mean the Mavs were better off when Finley/Nash/Nowitzki were the clear-cut go-to guys, best pals who took turns leading the other two to combining for 60? Does this mean the Mavs are somehow worse off despite supplementing those three with four guys (Jamison, Walker, Delk and Josh Howard) capable of doing their one-third part on the way to a three-man 60?
Have too many cooks spoiled the broth?
Or, will it eventually prove out that if any three guys top 60 (Dirk, Jamison and Walker went for 76 combined at Sacto), the Mavs have the fuel to win? After all, against Memphis, Nellie went with his ‘six-guys-and-change’ rotation. Finley went for 24, Dirk for 18, Nash for 16. (That’s 58, but it’s not 60.) Then came Antoine Walker and Antawn Jamison and Josh Howard, for 13, 14 and 15, respectively.
Those six guys combined for 100. So who cares how they got there, right?
A disturbing issue for me: It’s not which three guys score the 20, 20 and 20. It’s that the Mavs themselves may not be certain who those guys are on a given night, and that the likeliest candidates haven’t stepped to the fore and staked their claim.
It may surprise you to learn that of The Big Three, Finley has, in a way, been the most consistent. Averaging 17 points per, he has a high of 38 and a low of seven points, but that low is the only time all year he’s failed to reach double figures in scoring.
It’s not much, but it’s something.
Meanwhile, Nash is averaging 14.8 points per, but has games in which he’s scored 2 points, 2 points, 6 points, 9 points, and most recently, the Portland game in which he didn’t make a field goal. Cripes.
And Dirk? It hasn’t been so much the scoring totals (he’s had just two full games in which he scored under double-figures). But there are 10 games in which he’s made six shots or fewer, again underscoring that ‘too-many-cooks’ theory.
I know I’m just being nostalgic here. But I’d feel better about things if once, just once in 29 games, The Big Three would – thanks to good health, good shot selection, good positions on the offensive totem pole – get to be The Big Three again.
Or at least tease me by doing what they did Saturday, in which case Coach O and I will drop the magic number to 58.

[OutletPass]

Once and again, the pieces need to fit into the puzzle. Nellie's puzzle won't change. Period.
And listening to someone named "Fish" will give you salmonella.

[XERXES]

Originally posted by: OutletPass
Once and again, the pieces need to fit into the puzzle.

Nellie's puzzle won't change. Period.

And listening to someone named "Fish" will give you salmonella.

Once again, I concur with OP. But, I have to confess, Walker is a more palatable puzzle-piece (though he still doesn't fit just right) when his shot attempts are conservative and his assists greatly outweigh his turnovers (like they did tonight...)

[dude1394]

Originally posted by: OutletPass
Once and again, the pieces need to fit into the puzzle. Nellie's puzzle won't change. Period.
And listening to someone named "Fish" will give you salmonella.

I like fisher a lot.. If nothing else he tries to do some original thinking. I wish he printed more insight into the internals of the team but that may be a request from cubes to not do so.

[Fidel]

He should have looked into the numbers a little deeper. It´s not only about how many points aere scored and by whom. More then that it´s about how where those points scored? I´ve said it in another thread: Nash, Dirk and Fin (at times) where extremely effictive scorers last year (and they are still the most effective and efficient scorers on the team with Jamison). But they where replaced in those 60+ combos Fish is talking about by guys like Walker and Delk who are not nearly as efficient. Take todays game as an example. Walker scores 13 points on 17 shots. Dirk scores 18 points on 10 shots. And that´s the difference between last year and this year on offense.

[OutletPass]

Orginally posted by Fidel:
Walker scores 13 points on 17 shots. Dirk scores 18 points on 10 shots. And that´s the difference between last year and this year on offense.

--A lot of people post the same drivel over and over. Fidel has posted this a couple of times, and it deserves a lot more attention. His point far exceeds the repetitive nonsense that's posted here. It's the differnce between "Efficiency" and "volume". --I've been hard on Walker...and for a reason. To me, he sits in a class with Pierce and Iverson as guys who get numbers and don't make their teammates better. bottomline: They need touches. Are all of these guys GOOD players, bordering on GREAT...yes they are.

--But would they fit here ? I suspect they would, given a different coach and different personnel. But we have Nellie...and we have Dirk, Nash and Fin...and IMHO, Jamison and Howard. Let's back up and try one exercise of thought...Let's go back to last year's WCF. And subtract NVE and Add Jamison and Josh. And Jiri. And Fortson. We still don't have a 5. But I like that lineup...For today AND

FOR the FUTURE. Which is upon us faster than you may know...

[Fidel]

Thanks OP. I looked up the numbers from last year. It´s a bit like my last statistical analysis with the difference that I really did compare some numbers to those from last year. Not as detailed as I could have been but enough to get the idea I think.

This is not about Walker vs. Dirk. Guys like La Frentz, Bradley, Najera were all playing 20+ minutes last year. They combined for around 18 shots and they had a point per shot average of 1.35. Dirk, Fin and Nash combined for around 50 shots and a 1.30 pps average. The only real inneficient scorer last year was NVE, but he only took 11 shots per game and he was still more efficient then Walker.

Now guys like Najera and Bradley don´t play, LaFrentz is gone. And their shots (and a good part of the shots from the big 3) are being taken by Walker, Delk and Howard who combine for around 30! shots and a brutal 1.05 pps average. The only exception here is Jamison but he´s still not nearly as effective as LaFrentz or Bradley were last year, and he only get around 13 shots anyways.

And all this is why our team went from being one of the most efficient on offense to the bottom third of the league.


And OP I like that lineup you mentioned too. I like it alot. Might as well add LaFrentz cause you are speaking hypotheticly. We´d have him back next season, and who knew he needed surgery? (well maybe Nellie, but that´s another story).

[MightyToine]

Okay, Fidel....Okay, Outlet...I get it.

Walker sucks. I know. [img]i/expressions/rolleye.gif[/img]



Walker is the reason this team is not 20-4 right now....

Walker is the reason that this team plays Zone....

Walker is the reason...blah..blah.blah... [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img]




I'd take Walker having Crappy shooting games against the bottom-feeders and/or LEASTERN Conference teams as long as we get his GEMS against the Lakers and Kings of the world. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[Fidel]

Okay, Fidel....Okay, Outlet...I get it.

Walker sucks. I know.



Walker is the reason this team is not 20-4 right now....

Walker is the reason that this team plays Zone....

Walker is the reason...blah..blah.blah...




I'd take Walker having Crappy shooting games against the bottom-feeders and/or LEASTERN Conference teams as long as we get his GEMS against the Lakers and Kings of the world.

Well you didn´t get my point. It´s a team thing and I tried to show the difference from last year to this year. Last time I checked there are a couple more guys on the Mavs roster then just Toine. Maybe you didn´t notice that yet or maybe you´re a little paranoied, but go read my post again and you´ll find alot more names then just the one of Antoine "unstoppable" Walker.

[OutletPass]

Originally posted by Fidel:
This is not about Walker vs. Dirk.

-- Again, right on the money...and I'm left wondering why people won't realize that. Dirk ISN"T the whole puzzle. He's just one piece...albeit a big one. When I talk about ther new guys fitting into the puzzle, I'm not meaning that they have to fit into Dirk's game. They have to fit into the whole...which happens to be nellie's system that places emphasis on Dirk and Nash, at first, and Fin just below that.

--Your stats, Fidel, bear all of this out. You've given measurement to what we sense. Walker is less efficient than NVE...while taking many more shots. And teamwide, with these injuries, our starters are less efficient...and our bench is nonexistent. --If Walker is less efficient than NVE and NVE was our 3rd or 4th or 5th option, why does Walker take more shots than anyone ? -- He can board and pass...but can he quit this "volume shooting"

[OutletPass]

By MightyMouse:
Okay, Fidel....Okay, Outlet...I get it. Walker sucks. I know.
--Do you mind if we have a conversation without you. You had me at "Goodbye"

--Study what Fidel has posted. That's the best work on this board in a long while. I may go on about Walker, but it's a team thing. You still don't get that. Can your mind expand JUST A BIT ?

Originally posted By MightyMouse: Walker is the reason...blah..blah.blah...
--Walker is the reason why YOU"RE here..among Mavs fans. On you way out, take StupidDanny Ainge with you...we aren't the Celtics south, despite what you think.

[Max Power]

Originally posted by: OutletPass
--If Walker is less efficient than NVE and NVE was our 3rd or 4th or 5th option, why does Walker take more shots than anyone ?

-- He can board and pass...but can he quit this "volume shooting"

Walker has been taking a lot of shots because last year's big 3 have missed games and have played hurt in many other games. So he's taking up the slack. That's my story and I'm sticking with it. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

But I will be HUGELY disappointed if Walker doesn't change his game now that Dirk, Nash, and Finley are getting healthy. It's one thing to be an inefficient scorer trying to take up the slack for teammates and yet another to take your shots at the expense of better options. That is why I was so disappointed in tonight's game - Dirk and Finley were ON and yet Walker still dominated the ball.

Walker has to understand (and I think WILL understand) that Dirk is the best option on the team and Walker should always look for him first. Walker also needs to understand why he's a point forward. It's because Nash is a better option as well. So Walker needs to look for Nash second. IF neither option is available THEN Walker can look for his own shot.

But Nellie will get through to him on this. Nellie loves the point forward concept for a reason - to give his more efficient scorers a chance to move without the ball and get in a better position to score. If Walker can't fulfil this treasured role of Nellie then we don't have to worry about it - Walker will be shipped off during the offseason. Nellie will not tolerate someone screwing with that particular concept.

[dude1394]

Originally posted by: Fidel
Thanks OP. I looked up the numbers from last year. It´s a bit like my last statistical analysis with the difference that I really did compare some numbers to those from last year. Not as detailed as I could have been but enough to get the idea I think.

This is not about Walker vs. Dirk. Guys like La Frentz, Bradley, Najera were all playing 20+ minutes last year. They combined for around 18 shots and they had a point per shot average of 1.35. Dirk, Fin and Nash combined for around 50 shots and a 1.30 pps average. The only real inneficient scorer last year was NVE, but he only took 11 shots per game and he was still more efficient then Walker.

Now guys like Najera and Bradley don´t play, LaFrentz is gone. And their shots (and a good part of the shots from the big 3) are being taken by Walker, Delk and Howard who combine for around 30! shots and a brutal 1.05 pps average. The only exception here is Jamison but he´s still not nearly as effective as LaFrentz or Bradley were last year, and he only get around 13 shots anyways.

And all this is why our team went from being one of the most efficient on offense to the bottom third of the league.


And OP I like that lineup you mentioned too. I like it alot. Might as well add LaFrentz cause you are speaking hypotheticly. We´d have him back next season, and who knew he needed surgery? (well maybe Nellie, but that´s another story).

Not to mention griffin, raja, williams. They were all very efficient scorers when they played.

[Big Lo]

anytime u have a team with multiple scorers these days, your fg% will be down.

percentages were higher because there were 4 ppl taking the majority of the shots fo the mavs last year. 3 of which shot well, and the last shot less but hit the shots he took. of of the 8-9 man rotation they had, weve added 4 more potential scorers to that mix, a rookie, minus last years 4th option. 2 of which are scorers, and a rookie who is on that path. and the 4th not really a high percentage guy already. so odds are, % were going to be down cuz the same 3-4 guys werent taking all the shots. but, as a result; we lead the league in offensive rebounding, our defense is better when nessesary, and we a much more solid bench than ever before. you have to take the good with the bad.

[seelenjaeger]

Sorry, though Fidels points are founded somewhat, they are blindfolded aswell.

In the second half of tonights game Walker took for shots, and Dirk STILL only got four.

It is VERY easy to blame everything on Walkers bad point per shot value, but Fidel is to some degree missing some aspects of Walkers game.

The reason why Dirks point per shot is that high is simply his ability to draw fouls. Dirk is - considering pure shot attempts - somewhere in the middle between Walker (better) and Howard (lesser) in the Mavs Black Hole Rating.

And Walkers oh-so-many shot attempts are blundered by his numerous put-backs. Yes, you can argue that he is making those on a higher percentage than he connects on other shots, therefore those put backs are not only working "negatively" for Walker, because they increase his shooting percentage.

Those put backs he´s taking away from no-one. If Walker wouldnt get them, the Mavs likely wouldnt. The only thing he´s taking away something with his putbacks is the game clock with roughly 3 seconds each put-back.

My main problem with Antoine Walker is his habit to shoot that often from the outside. It shouldnt be his aim to launch 5 treys a game, nor shood it be the Mavs plan.

Shot distribution IS a problem on nowadays Mavs.

But sorry, if you want to get something, you got to give. We increased in rebounding, and we are outscoring opponents in the paint on a regular basis. IF Dirk was able to provide that by himself, then why didn´t he do it? Yeah, yeah, I know that song, Nellie didn´t let him blah blah. That´s BS.

Do you really think Jamison and Walker can convince Nellie playing him inside, and Dirk can´t?

I go with you that Dirk isnt meant to get less than 15 shots in most of the games. Fine by me.

Dirk has gotten less than 15 shots this season 10 times (not counting the early exit games). 5 of those games he showed abysmal shooting, 3 were blowout wins with limited minutes.

So is that a problem? Not for me.

And to ride that example:

Since the arrival of Sam Cassell, Latrell Sprewel, the Kandiman, which gives KG a superior supporting cast according to almost every sports writer, KG took 2 shots MORE a game than he did before. You can blame it on the coach, the injuries, on whatever you want. But you don´t "take away" shots from KG. And the reason for that is KG.

If you want Dirk to take more shots, make Dirk the reason to get them.

[OutletPass]

Originally posted by SJ:
Sorry, though Fidels points are founded somewhat, they are blindfolded aswell. In the second half of tonights game Walker took for shots, and Dirk STILL only got four.

-- With all due respect SJ, this STILL ISN"T a Dirk vs. Walker thing...though so many would like to make it that, as Fidel said, it's a team thing. It's a team thing..it's a team thing...it's a team thing. As of this moment, Jamison, Nash and Finley are ALL also better than Walker in terms of Adjusted Field Goal Percentage (Shot efficiency) according to the league stats.

--It's beyond my understanding why so many think this is some Walker vs. Dirk issue, I've never said that...like Fidel, I think it's a team issue. I don't want my 4th or 5th best shooter taking the 1st or 2nd most shots. I'll say it again.

It's a team thing; it's not Walker vs. Dirk
It's a team thing; it's not Walker vs. Dirk
It's a team thing; it's not Walker vs. Dirk
It's a team thing; it's not Walker vs. Dirk


-- This isn't a new or aberrant ranking for Walker, it's in line with his whole career. I suppose it's become a Dirk vs. Walker comparison right now because Dirk has had a horrible start...even before his ankles gave way.

--Antoine isn't the reason for the losses...It's a team thing. But one glance at all of these threads will tell you that where there's smoke; there's fire. As Xerxes said, when Walker takes less shots, and more conservative shots, and boards and passes, he's a more palatible piece to the puzzle and just may fit. But when he takes more shots than anyone else, he just doesn't.

So, why is this, in your mind, or antone else's ...a Dirk vs. Antoine issue ?

It's pretty clearly a team thing. Fidel can say that real clearly, over and over, and produce supporting evidence that's easy to find...and, for some reason, it is always a Dirk issue to some.

So I'll just say fine...and forget Dirk...and take away 7 shots per game from Walker and give them to more efficient guys like Jamison, Nash and Fin. Will that settle it ?

Timeout for some carne guisada.

[seelenjaeger]

Originally posted by: OutletPass
Originally posted by SJ:
Sorry, though Fidels points are founded somewhat, they are blindfolded aswell. In the second half of tonights game Walker took for shots, and Dirk STILL only got four.

-- With all due respect SJ, this STILL ISN"T a Dirk vs. Walker thing...though so many would like to make it that, as Fidel said, it's a team thing. It's a team thing..it's a team thing...it's a team thing. As of this moment, Jamison, Nash and Finley are ALL also better than Walker in terms of Adjusted Field Goal Percentage (Shot efficiency) according to the league stats.

--It's beyond my understanding why so many think this is some Walker vs. Dirk issue, I've never said that...like Fidel, I think it's a team issue. I don't want my 4th or 5th best shooter taking the 1st or 2nd most shots. I'll say it again.

It's a team thing; it's not Walker vs. Dirk
It's a team thing; it's not Walker vs. Dirk
It's a team thing; it's not Walker vs. Dirk
It's a team thing; it's not Walker vs. Dirk


-- This isn't a new or aberrant ranking for Walker, it's in line with his whole career. I suppose it's become a Dirk vs. Walker comparison right now because Dirk has had a horrible start...even before his ankles gave way.

--Antoine isn't the reason for the losses...It's a team thing. But one glance at all of these threads will tell you that where there's smoke; there's fire. As Xerxes said, when Walker takes less shots, and more conservative shots, and boards and passes, he's a more palatible piece to the puzzle and just may fit. But when he takes more shots than anyone else, he just doesn't.

So, why is this, in your mind, or antone else's ...a Dirk vs. Antoine issue ?

It's pretty clearly a team thing. Fidel can say that real clearly, over and over, and produce supporting evidence that's easy to find...and, for some reason, it is always a Dirk issue to some.

So I'll just say fine...and take away 7 shots per game from Walker and give them to more efficient guys like Jamison, Nash and Fin. Will that settle it ?

Timeout for some carne guisada.

Outlet - yes, it is about Dirk vs. Walker. And Fidel´s point is not that much different.

Walker is the prime example. It´s not that you just take away 7 shots from this one and give it to that other guy. IT IS NOT THAT SIMPLE. That´s why it´s easier to show BY THE EXAMPLE of Dirk vs. Walker why it is not working that way.

The BIG BIG problem which is occurring over and over again that most naysayers as Fidel have NEVER been satisfied with one thing or another. In a perfect world you have your most efficient player taking each shot.

Fidels line from last night is betraying the fact that it´s not just one guy out there. And it goes down to Dirk vs. Delk. Dirk vs. Fin. Dirk vs. Walker if you think it to the end.

Take last years team. It was working okay (yeah yeah - we had luck to make this and that, injuries, game 7 ... still it was the most successful year of our team history). Subtract - like so many guys here, Fidel included (and me aswell= - Nick Van Exel and you have a beetter team because more shots will go to higher rated shooters. Short sighted. Of course it´s right to some degree. But this is not playing with Lego-Pieces.

Basketball is a complex scheme. And "hey, Dirk shot only 10 times, he should have gotten 3 more shots at least" means - if you have to execute this, that you have to stop a fast break or break away layup "because Dirk has not gotten his amount of shots". This is crap. No one will say that THIS is the right way.

Take a look at the Gameday thread.

The time Dirk was not getting shots was mainly the 2nd and 3rd quarter. In the 3rd quarter we had almost 4:30 in Playing Time when we made points on any single possession. Dirk was getting only one shot during this period. Do you really want to disrupt those stuff by getting Dirk the appropriate number of touches?

Let´s take a look at the 2nd quarter. Going with the scoreboard, I was hit by the impression than other than this horrible ball handling of our team the plan was to establish an inside game, slow down any running and go to a set offense. That ASWELL is one thing often demanded from the Mavs. And hitting the Offensive Boards gave us more points (10) than our usual execution (8).

And because we´re doing this, hell, the ball went to the guy who is able to make something happen there. Which is a guy named Antoine, or Antawn, whoever you want to spell it, and NOT Mr. Nowitzki, because he is just not there.

So actually, each adjustment the Mavs do - getting someone to crash the boards, getting someone to be able to create in the low post, trying to post up more, establishing an inside game - is WRONG as long it´s not Dirk who benefits.

No one wants to Dirk shoot 10 a night.

But out of 10 games when he did shoot less than 15, 5 times he was awfully of and stopped shooting, 3 times it was due to blowout wins and limited minutes. Leaves 2 occasions this season worth arguing about. Including last night. And again we have all this ballyhoo about it?

We solved - yes SOLVED - our rebounding problem, both on the offensive and the defensive boards. We have established options in the paint and frequently out-score opponents in the paint. And we are paying for it with a transition period where we made another big improvement - WINNING the important games instead of all the trash ones - and all that is happening all the time by several guys is the continuation of "sack Nelllie", "get Dirk more shots", "we need this and that" stuff.

The decisions on the floor are gametime decisions.

I don´t want NO Mav to pass up a single shot when he thinks he has a good look and will make it just because Dirk hasn´t gotten his share.

We had numerous occasions when Dirks shooting hurt the team, and alot of games when others with higher Percentages and Ratings did not "take away" his shots or complained about not getting their due. But once this occurs to Dirks it´s treated like a big thing and crisis and each one daring to shoot gets dissed.

Tony Delk, Antoine Walker, Antawn Jamison, Steve Nash, Michael Finley, all are Mavericks. And all deserve support. I seriously doubt that any of that guys is shooting for another reason that to score the buck.

We won last nights game because Antawn was able to give us those points we needed in the fourth. And foremyost, I´m glad that SOMEONE stepped up and did it. Dirk was huge on the boards and always a nice Joker to have up the sleeve. Nash was showing signs of beeing able to punish opponents. Finley had a soft hand all night and is getting into a Defensive Groove. Josh was huge on D. Walker made right adjustments and had a very very nice all around game.

Each of those guys was a key part in last nights game. I don´t see why griping about it helps us.

Dirk has been himself for 2 games now. He has not proven to be the guy to dominate the ball, the touches and the game so far. He has not earned to OWN this team so far. No one takes away shots from KG because KG is DA MAN. He´s just demanding it, and he´s earning it. Dirk has just STARTED to earn it this year, and Dirk is not a ball hog. If he´s speaking up about his shots, we might have a problem. As long as he isnt, he either has not a problem with it, or he is not interested in a change.

Watch the development with Dirk becoming more dominant. If Dirk is still getting 16 shots a game in February, we might talk again.

[Chiwas]

And listening to someone named "Fish" will give you salmonella

Cholera.

[Big Lo]

SJ points out the one thing everybody overlooks;

walker looks for his own shots because hes a scorer. which is what dirk is on occasion, but dirk is less inclined to create his own shot unless he is in position to do so. dirk would rather digress to the others if a better shot is available, but he hasnt learned to demand the ball when nessesary. dirk is a shooter, not a scorer. and needs to be set up. and if you need an example, just think of #31. there fore scoreres are always going to get more shots simply cause they know how to get open. and make things happen. its up to the shooters to find a living for themselves when able. also, in order for walker to set up dirk more effectively, he has to be factor, and for that he needs to take shots. dirk has been getting his shots this year, he just hasnt been hitting a large % consistently. dallas is what dallas is now, because theyre not outscoring opponents at the rate they did last year, they're missing more free throws, & they're commiting more turnovers.

[OutletPass]

Goodness, the last time that I checked, this was a team called the Mavericks.
If you can't keep from making this a Dirk/Walker issue, that's not my problem. And not my issue.
And the last time that I checked, this thread was about RIP to the Big 3, not Dirk.

It's a team thing.

[StupidDannyAInge]

Originally posted by: OutletPass
Goodness, the last time that I checked, this was a team called the Mavericks.

It's a team thing.

You wouldn't know what the word team means if it bit you in the butt.
You have a problem with anyone who defends Antoine and think you have the right to call people names (and you get away with it on a consistant basis)

Your a bully. lol

You keep whining that players need to fit into this team but what you really mean is they need to defer to Dirk.
As long as Dirk gets the most points "fans" like you will be happy. I hate to break it to you but Dirk and team do not mean the same thing.

[kg_veteran]

Everybody needs to stick to basketball or I'm going to start editing all of your posts in embarrassing fashion.

Before all of this snowballed into a "nanny nanny boo boo" fest, the point that Fidel raised, IMO, was a good one.

Walker IS an inefficient scorer. Seems to me that we should all agree on that, whether you like Walker or not. As Max pointed out, Walker has taken the shots because other guys have been hurt and it has been at least somewhat necessary to fill the void. Now that all of our scorers are healthy, that should no longer be the case. Walker SHOULD begin to defer to Nowitzki, Finley, Jamison, and even Nash. He should look to do what he does best -- rebound the ball, pass the ball, and be a facilitator offensively.

[MightyToine]

Originally posted by: Big Lo
SJ points out the one thing everybody overlooks;

walker looks for his own shots because hes a scorer. which is what dirk is on occasion, but dirk is less inclined to create his own shot unless he is in position to do so. dirk would rather digress to the others if a better shot is available, but he hasnt learned to demand the ball when nessesary. dirk is a shooter, not a scorer. and needs to be set up. and if you need an example, just think of #31. there fore scoreres are always going to get more shots simply cause they know how to get open. and make things happen. its up to the shooters to find a living for themselves when able. also, in order for walker to set up dirk more effectively, he has to be factor, and for that he needs to take shots. dirk has been getting his shots this year, he just hasnt been hitting a large % consistently. dallas is what dallas is now, because theyre not outscoring opponents at the rate they did last year, they're missing more free throws, & they're commiting more turnovers.

Amen, Big Lo. Dirk is more like Allan Houston than Tracy McGrady in that respect of creating his own shot. Dirk needs to be set up but he can't be set up if none of the other Mavs players are taking the ball to the hole and kicking it out to him ala Walker/Jamison/Nash/Finley.....

[Walkerforthree]

Originally posted by: Big Lo
SJ points out the one thing everybody overlooks;

walker looks for his own shots because hes a scorer. which is what dirk is on occasion, but dirk is less inclined to create his own shot unless he is in position to do so. dirk would rather digress to the others if a better shot is available, but he hasnt learned to demand the ball when nessesary. dirk is a shooter, not a scorer. and needs to be set up. and if you need an example, just think of #31. there fore scoreres are always going to get more shots simply cause they know how to get open. and make things happen. its up to the shooters to find a living for themselves when able. also, in order for walker to set up dirk more effectively, he has to be factor, and for that he needs to take shots. dirk has been getting his shots this year, he just hasnt been hitting a large % consistently. dallas is what dallas is now, because theyre not outscoring opponents at the rate they did last year, they're missing more free throws, & they're commiting more turnovers.

that is bull, absolute crap. Dirk is more a scorer then a shooter, he needs to be set-up?? What a load. Dirk is the best SCORER ON THIS TEAM, HE IS A BETTER SCORER THEN WALKER, there is a reason he gets to the line 6/7 times a game, there's a reason he scored 25.2 ppg last year. In fact, WALKER IS MORE OF A SHOOTER THEN DIRK, although he is a worse shooter, thats more his game. Case in point, Walker takes 7/8 threes a game, Dirk takes 3/4. Hmmmm.....I think its the shooter who jacks up more threes, not the scorer. Dirk is the, top 3, biggest mismatches and is one of the best aty creating his own shot. You see, things like him isolating Brad Miller the other game, taking him off the dribble and scoring on a tough fade over Miller is not being set-up! However, Walker getting a pass on Steve penetration for a wide open three, thats being set-up.

MightyToine, don't ever compare Dirk to Houston.

[MightyToine]

MightyToine, don't ever compare Dirk to Houston.

I wasn't comparing Dirk to Houston...I was comparing them in regards to not being able to create their own shots...

[ReDIRKulous]

Dirk is excellent at creating his own shot... when he has a player close to his size guarding him. The problem is that teams put smaller players on him which forces him to play inside more where his skills aren't as high as on the preimeter..... but... when teams put a smaller player on Dirk... it creates a mismatch somewhere else. Which is where Dirk's value really lies. Walker has benefitted a lot from this already.

[Walkerforthree]

Originally posted by: MightyToine

I wasn't comparing Dirk to Houston...I was comparing them in regards to not being able to create their own shots...

i understand that, but houston really is just a shooter.

[Chiwas]

It’s that the Mavs themselves may not be certain who those guys are on a given night, and that the likeliest candidates haven’t stepped to the fore and staked their claim.

Lack of leadership, lack of a chief on the court.

Nash, maybe it's time to get upgraded.

[Fidel]

yes, it is about Dirk vs. Walker. And Fidel´s point is not that much different.

Walker is the prime example. It´s not that you just take away 7 shots from this one and give it to that other guy. IT IS NOT THAT SIMPLE. That´s why it´s easier to show BY THE EXAMPLE of Dirk vs. Walker why it is not working that way.

The BIG BIG problem which is occurring over and over again that most naysayers as Fidel have NEVER been satisfied with one thing or another. In a perfect world you have your most efficient player taking each shot.

Fidels line from last night is betraying the fact that it´s not just one guy out there. And it goes down to Dirk vs. Delk. Dirk vs. Fin. Dirk vs. Walker if you think it to the end.

SJ are you just trying to confront me here or what´s up? It obviously doesn´t go down to Dirk vs. Delk, Dirk vs. Walker... try to read my line from last night again where I was "betraying the fact that it´s not just one guy out there". Maybe you can get a better grasp of what I´m saying this time:

This is not about Walker vs. Dirk. Guys like La Frentz, Bradley, Najera were all playing 20+ minutes last year. They combined for around 18 shots and they had a point per shot average of 1.35. Dirk, Fin and Nash combined for around 50 shots and a 1.30 pps average. The only real inneficient scorer last year was NVE, but he only took 11 shots per game and he was still more efficient then Walker.

Now guys like Najera and Bradley don´t play, LaFrentz is gone. And their shots (and a good part of the shots from the big 3) are being taken by Walker, Delk and Howard who combine for around 30! shots and a brutal 1.05 pps average. The only exception here is Jamison but he´s still not nearly as effective as LaFrentz or Bradley were last year, and he only get around 13 shots anyways.

In fact you are the one who´s betraying the fact that it´s not just one guy out there. You single him out. You are trying to make it into a Dirk vs. everyone thing. This is why you completely miss the point with your rather lenghty post.

[MikeB]

I think Walker sometimes takes shots when the other Mavs on the floor don't seem to be intersted in working to get open. I for one appreciate him having the "stones" to take those shots.

Now would we be better if it was Dirk who grew some stones and took over...yeah!...but he hasn't shown that kind of fire very often this season so far.

RIP to the "Big 3"...ok.
Hello to the NEW FAB 5.

[ReDIRKulous]

Originally posted by: MikeB
I think Walker sometimes takes shots when the other Mavs on the floor don't seem to be intersted in working to get open. I for one appreciate him having the "stones" to take those shots.

Now would we be better if it was Dirk who grew some stones and took over...yeah!...but he hasn't shown that kind of fire very often this season so far.

RIP to the "Big 3"...ok.
Hello to the NEW FAB 5.

This is the real key to why Walker is an improvement to Raef. Raef was terrified to shoot in big games. Walker is more anxious than maybe even Nick Van Exel to shoot in big games... and so far Walker has shot great in those big games. Walker does hurt us somewhat in regular season games... it feels like it at least. But it is well worth it for his performance in the big games imo. I just wish Walker would realize that he could literally average a triple-double if he would pass to Dirk much more frequently.

[mavs_afroman]

Originally posted by: MikeB
I think Walker sometimes takes shots when the other Mavs on the floor don't seem to be intersted in working to get open. I for one appreciate him having the "stones" to take those shots.

Now would we be better if it was Dirk who grew some stones and took over...yeah!...but he hasn't shown that kind of fire very often this season so far.

RIP to the "Big 3"...ok.
Hello to the NEW FAB 5.

I could understand that but that didn't seem to be as big of a problem as last year. They got open last year and made shots. The Mavs really were incredibly unselfish last year. Sometimes is looked like noone was stepping up but it was enough to lead the league in scoring. So I don't think that Walker shoots just because noone else will step up. They've stepped up before.

I'm not even saying that Walker's selfish, he's just impatient. At least that's what I'll call it for right now. Many times, if he'd just wait a second or two before charging to the goal, there would be someone open.

[Psychedelic Fuzz]

yes, the mavs are scoring less, by a whole one point.

as for fg%...
on a good offensive rebounding team, there will be more points on put-backs, which means more shot attempts show up in the stat. For example, there was one play against Memphis were walker missed, then missed the tip, then got the tip to go in. That's 3 attemps and only one make. I wouldn't attribute a drop in fg% purely to bad shooting.

[mavs_afroman]

Originally posted by: Psychedelic Fuzz
yes, the mavs are scoring less, by a whole one point.

as for fg%...
on a good offensive rebounding team, there will be more points on put-backs, which means more shot attempts show up in the stat. For example, there was one play against Memphis were walker missed, then missed the tip, then got the tip to go in. That's 3 attemps and only one make. I wouldn't attribute a drop in fg% purely to bad shooting.

That's a good point but in the end scoring is still down and so is the win %. Like you said, scoring is down only one point. However, we cannot score as efficiently. I think that that's why they've lost more games this year. Efficient scoring, like last year, was one reason they blew fewer big leads last year and also why they were so much better in the 4th quarter. For the most part, they were able to score points when they needed in the 4th quarter or to stop a run by the opposing team.

Also, taking 3 shots to score 2 points is still bad shooting whether on the same posession or not. That lowers fg%. What else is there to attribute a lowered fg% to other than not shooting as well. I understand that a drop in scoring isn't always caused by bad shooting or low fg% because, like you said, if you rebound well, you can get those back and put them in and you still score the same amount of points. However, so far at least, the fg% has dropped and so has the scoring as well as there ability to create good shots when they need them the most.

[Psychedelic Fuzz]

you are right. overall fg% is down, but my point is that shooting has not gotten quite as bad as the stat suggests it has.

The rest of the problems you point out will resolve themselves when the injury bug stops creeping up and biting this team in the @$$ long enough for Dirk to get back in the groove and the big 5 to learn each other's tendencies a little better.

[mavs_afroman]

I sure hope so.

[Chiwas]

Following your idead, LRB, I could say that the Mavs need of Walker as a role player instead of a leading or all around player. He would turn in a ton of help.

[seelenjaeger]

Guys, two things:

Walkers roughly 2 Put-Backs per game and Walkers enormous amount of non-existent free throws should tell you something no one seem to mention.

Although the numbers LOOK like we´re running more plays through Walker, this is DEFINATELY not true. Dirk IS ALREADY our main option on offense, although he is getting less "true shots" than Walker.

Why? Because roughly 2 of Walkers shots per game come from putbacks, and Dirk is fouled WITH THE BALL IN HIS HANDS.

If you adjust it with this knowledge, you´ll realize that Walker is ALREADY playing the 2nd fiddle, maybe even tied 2nd fiddle with Fin.

Take a three pointer from him, and limit benchguards and Howard to take a little less shots, and foremost, CONVINCE DIRK to PLAY HIS GAME and you have nothing to talk about.

We don´t even need that drastic change most people are trying to do.

[kg_veteran]

SJ - The numbers illustrate that Walker could really improve his scoring efficiency by simply taking fewer three-pointers. How many that should be is open to debate, I suppose, but it seems like he should be chunking up closer to 2-3 a game than the 5.2 he currently hoists.

[Murphy3]

Walker is a horribly inefficient scorer. He has been his entire career. He doesn't hit 2-pt shots at a good clip. He doesn't hit 3 pointers at a good clip. He doesn't get to the line at a respectable clip. When he does get to the line, he doesn't hit his free throws at a good clip.

He's AI without the ability to get to the line AND hit free throws. Bottom line, when it comes to shooting, he just doesn't do a decent job of putting the ball in the hoop. Yes, he's been slightly better this year, but in the end, he'll be what he is. He's an inefficient scorer.