Does rookie play = ? - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

dirkFREAKINnowitzki · 03-30-2004, 11:38 PM

Rookie play = Finley exit.

Finley is a nice player, but I do not believe this team centers around him. Many people have suggested that the mavs should trade Finley. Well, now is the first time that somebody can actually say that and not worry as to who would take his minutes.

For the first time, this team can look at trading him. Remember, he is getting older and should be on his downward slide. The stock on him is as high as it ever will be. Maybe Dallas can get some nice young talent for him. Or possibly a decent center, draft picks, etc.

I don't have any particular player in mind for the trade, but I do see it as an offseason that could involve trading Walker, Finley, and possibly Jamison. That should get you something very nice in return. I would prefer to keep Jamison, but if the deal is right, he should be gone.

Think of it:

Nash
Daniels
Howard
Nowitzki
?

All but Nash should be very productive for the next 10 years!

Chandler and Dampier would look good as Mavs.

Murphy3 · 03-30-2004, 11:45 PM

I can see the rookies' play meaning that Fin will finally see a much needed reduction in minutes

chumdawg · 03-31-2004, 12:34 AM

The Small Ball is intoxicating, isn't it???

Rhylan · 03-31-2004, 12:41 AM

Fin ain't goin' nowhere. I've pretty much embraced this fact.

OutletPass · 03-31-2004, 12:48 AM

Even IF you wanted to trade Fin, his contract is going to be very hard to deal as he gets older. The problem isn't his playing, it's really about his contract. I still think he finishes his career here.

ddh33 · 03-31-2004, 01:10 AM

You know, the thing is that I don't have a problem at all with him finishing his career here. In fact, that is my preference...

I know that his contract is going to be nasty in the future, but that has very little bearing on what this team does. After all, it seems that this franchise will always be over or so near the cap that it doesn't matter.

Keep him here and utilize him in a way that is best for this franchise. Eventually, that may mean him coming off the bench, but there is no reason to rush this guy out the door - even considering how impressive the rooks have looked. Finley is still playing very good ball for a good team. Truthfully, there aren't many guys out there better than him at his position...

FilthyFinMavs · 03-31-2004, 01:32 PM

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Originally posted by: OutletPass
Even IF you wanted to trade Fin, his contract is going to be very hard to deal as he gets older. The problem isn't his playing, it's really about his contract. I still think he finishes his career here.

And he should.

Male30Dan · 03-31-2004, 10:58 AM

I must say, I wish these damn rookies would give the ball up more in transition... They make so many mistakes trying to make highlight plays...

With that said, they are also pretty good finishers... I guess I find myself saying: "What in the he.......... Good play rook, good play"

Chiwas · 03-31-2004, 11:22 AM

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Finley, like almost all players, don't like to do these things; there is just something easier about settling for the mid-range jumper rather than driving towards the hoop and getting contact.

I'm in the minority here, I like to guard and drive to the hoop, but I don't like to shoot jumpshots.

Back on topic: Nelson is the all-time Cruise Control Coach. CCC Nelson. Dang good way to steal a lot of money. That's why Finley won't go, cause Finley is a very good balanced tire.

MavsFanFinley · 03-31-2004, 12:05 PM

The Mavs are certainly in better position this year to trade Finley than in previous ones. They've never had 2 guys like Howard and Daniels that could step in and make you forget what Finley brought.

Cuban has never had trouble dumping big contracts. The problem with Finley is that only one team could really benefit by trading for him right now. And that's Chicago. Otherwise, the most likely way to trade him is in his final year of his contract where another team will be blowing things up. Is it worth it by then or fair to Finley? And by fair, I mean keeping him here in a more limited role instead of trying to get him to a team where he could help in ways that might not be what the Mavs need.

Dooby made an excellent point about Nelson. He's not going to get Finley to play great defense now after years of preaching offense. The only way he's going to get Finley to attack the basket is by running a play for him now and then instead of having him hang out at the 3-point line. The only thing I've seen them run for Finley is the iso at the end of a quarter or a little curl where he gets a shot off at the ft line area.

What the Mavs need to decide is what Finley's role will be if they keep him. We know he's not going to average 40+ minutes a game again, but he's not going to be effective with 30-33-maybe 35 minutes either as one of the main options. They might benefit by using him in a Hubert Davis/Glen Rice type role where he comes off the bench and shoots 3's and that's about it. While that might benefit the Mavs, it's really going to have people talking about his contract.

Murphy3 · 03-31-2004, 12:19 PM

I see no reason to for Fin not to be effective in 30-33 minutes of play. Playing a few less minutes per game would probably just lengthen his playing career and also help him to stay fresh for the playoffs..

The problem wouldn't be minutes. Finley's effectiveness would require him to get touches when he's in the game. If he were to play 30-33 minutes a game and get the same ratio of touches that he's gotten over the past 40 games or so, there's no reason why Fin couldn't be effective. And he would need to be the Mavs #2 or #3 option when on the court. There shouldn't be any of this Fin taking a back seat to Antoine Walker bull crap that went on for the first half of the season.

Male30Dan · 03-31-2004, 12:22 PM

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Originally posted by: Murphy3
There shouldn't be any of this Fin taking a back seat to Antoine Walker bull crap that went on for the first half of the season.

I dont think anyone is arguing with that statement...

Murphy3 · 03-31-2004, 12:23 PM

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Originally posted by: Male22Dan

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Originally posted by: Murphy3
There shouldn't be any of this Fin taking a back seat to Antoine Walker bull crap that went on for the first half of the season.

I dont think anyone is arguing with that statement...

I would hope not. I would hope that Nellie has seen the error of his ways and will never make such a horrendous mistake again in his life.

Stressboy · 03-31-2004, 12:36 PM

Trading Finley is not hard if we wanted to go that route. There are teams besides chicago that could use him. Thing is don't worry about until the Mavs get rid of Walker. The only way I see Fin getting traded is if we get offered a big time talent and it takes Fin and Walkers salary to make the deal go down. Read Grant/McGrady or Iverson/McGrady/Hill three way. Finley when in rythm is still the second best offensive weapon we have. Everytime he is out and comes back rusty the speculation starts, so just let it go.

MavsFanFinley · 03-31-2004, 12:38 PM

We actually agree Murphy. I should have said Finley wouldn't be as effective as a starter with 30-33 minutes a game. Especially with the way the team is structured right now and how Nelson rotates the lineup. Not to mention the mismatches he likes to exploit.

I think if he were to come off the bench with Jamison and be that 2nd option for what he brings now would benefit both sides.

Of course, this is hard to cement right now because the team outlook should be different next season.

Murphy3 · 03-31-2004, 12:41 PM

Fin could always be the number one option if he were coming off the bench with Jamison (unless dirk is still in the game). Jamison usually doesn't need to be an offensive option. He can get his points on simple dive cuts and cleaning up the garbage on the offensive glass. That is one reason why I love the guy offensively. He's willing to take a back seat and wait for the game to come to him.

Male30Dan · 03-31-2004, 12:55 PM

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Originally posted by: Murphy3
Jamison usually doesn't need to be an offensive option. He can get his points on simple dive cuts and cleaning up the garbage on the offensive glass. That is one reason why I love the guy offensively. He's willing to take a back seat and wait for the game to come to him.

I do want Jamison to get a little bit smarter when he IS made an option and has the ball passed to him... If you watch him, you will see that when he gets the ball, he takes it and automatically turns, jumps toward the basket, and shoots... I wish he would be a little more comftorable with the basketball... If he could just get the ball and look around him for both cutters and for his chances at putting a move on a guy, I think his assists would go up and his percentages would go up... Let him go up quick like always when he cleans up rebounds, but have him do a little bit of a better job trying to get layups and dunks as opposed to bunny shots... I know thats his game, but Im saying for him to go to the next level, this could really help him...

grndmstr_c · 03-31-2004, 04:06 PM

I'm with you on this one FFM. I have no problem with Fin letting Lebron go on that break. Fin was trailing and with James' strength would have had to commit a very hard foul putting both guys in danger to ensure he didn't get an and-1. We're not in the playoffs yet and that kind of play wasn't really necessary. Once the second season starts up I hope the team will start using some of those fouls when guys get into the lane in a halfcourt set, but on a break like that I just don't see what the big deal is.

Max Power · 03-31-2004, 05:27 PM

Finley has no real trade value. Between his age and his contract, he has no trade value. His value is highest here where the contract is unimportant and he is judged on his playing ability. We will not get anything even remotely as valuable in trade for Finley as keeping him. Teams know that shooting guards and small forwards are fairly easy to acquire (Howard and Daniels are prime examples) so the upgrade from a Daniels to a Finley is not that important to most teams - especially when you factor in the age and contract situation. Finley is a luxury that most teams cannot afford.

Finley is a Maverick For Life.

FilthyFinMavs · 03-31-2004, 05:52 PM

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Originally posted by: grndmstr_c
I'm with you on this one FFM. I have no problem with Fin letting Lebron go on that break. Fin was trailing and with James' strength would have had to commit a very hard foul putting both guys in danger to ensure he didn't get an and-1. We're not in the playoffs yet and that kind of play wasn't really necessary. Once the second season starts up I hope the team will start using some of those fouls when guys get into the lane in a halfcourt set, but on a break like that I just don't see what the big deal is.

Great point I foget to mention. He was trailing Lebron. We just got over the Danny Fortson foul that had fans crying and now you want Fin to do the same thing to Lebron? I don't get it myself. I'm fine with fouling a guy when we are in a halfcourt set but running in transition is another story. I don't believe Fin would've caught him anyway.

Misfit Mav · 03-31-2004, 06:49 PM

I don't think there's any logic in trading Fin. Jamison and Walker are both more attractive trade bait due to their ages, and Fin is much more important to the Mavs than either of them. There is no way Fin would bring us a big man that couldn't be had for Walker or Jamison.

dirkFREAKINnowitzki · 03-31-2004, 08:41 PM

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Originally posted by: Misfit Mav
I don't think there's any logic in trading Fin. Jamison and Walker are both more attractive trade bait due to their ages, and Fin is much more important to the Mavs than either of them. There is no way Fin would bring us a big man that couldn't be had for Walker or Jamison.

I believe Chicago would trade for Finley in a heartbeat. They have two big fellows.
Jamison should be on this team, simply for his game.
Walker needs to be sent packing for what ever we could get.

The team that will win a championship in dallas does not have Finley, Walker, or Nelson on it. A championship will be won by the younger players such a Dirk, Howard, and Daniels.

FreshJive · 04-01-2004, 03:16 AM

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Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs

Quote:

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c
I'm with you on this one FFM. I have no problem with Fin letting Lebron go on that break. Fin was trailing and with James' strength would have had to commit a very hard foul putting both guys in danger to ensure he didn't get an and-1. We're not in the playoffs yet and that kind of play wasn't really necessary. Once the second season starts up I hope the team will start using some of those fouls when guys get into the lane in a halfcourt set, but on a break like that I just don't see what the big deal is.

Great point I foget to mention. He was trailing Lebron. We just got over the Danny Fortson foul that had fans crying and now you want Fin to do the same thing to Lebron? I don't get it myself. I'm fine with fouling a guy when we are in a halfcourt set but running in transition is another story. I don't believe Fin would've caught him anyway.

Simon's right on this one. I watched that play again (10:30 something left in the first half after Lebron stole Dirks pass) and Fin got back quick enough to make a "play on the ball"(meaning foul him legally) and could have easily prevented a dunk(from behind btw, he wouldn't be putting his body in front of Lebron's 6'9" frame). At this point in the game there wasn't the "foul trouble" excuse that everyone uses to explain Dirk, and it is good to make the no dunks message early to set a tone.

As far as comparing it to Fortson there really is no comparison, here. Fortson made a stupid foul in a blowout loss during garbage time to PHOENIX of all teams. Fortson had no chance to make a play on the ball, and was sure to get a flagrant. Finley could have prevented a dunk at the beggining of an important game(almost as important at this point in time as a playoff game). He was back in time to make a proper, dunk preventing foul without commiting a flagrant.

FreshJive · 04-01-2004, 03:18 AM

And as far as trading Finley goes. I'm against it. We don't even know if we can keep Daniels yet.

FreshJive · 04-01-2004, 04:15 AM

MFF it was my understanding from the gameday threads that you aren't watching most of these games. The photo that you posted is a bit misleading because Fin was there well before Lebron jumped.

Simon2 · 03-31-2004, 09:22 PM

No way! Fin wasn't trailing. He actually stepped aside to let Lebron dunk. Did you see Lebron take so many easy shots? If Fin let him have it, he would think twice before he drove to the basket. I guess my opinion is that teams should have fear when they enter the paint. Intimidation plays a big factor in basketball. The Mavs don't intimidate anyone.

Quote:

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c
I'm with you on this one FFM. I have no problem with Fin letting Lebron go on that break. Fin was trailing and with James' strength would have had to commit a very hard foul putting both guys in danger to ensure he didn't get an and-1. We're not in the playoffs yet and that kind of play wasn't really necessary. Once the second season starts up I hope the team will start using some of those fouls when guys get into the lane in a halfcourt set, but on a break like that I just don't see what the big deal is.

FilthyFinMavs · 03-31-2004, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Simon2
No way! Fin wasn't trailing. He actually stepped aside to let Lebron dunk. Did you see Lebron take so many easy shots? If Fin let him have it, he would think twice before he drove to the basket. I guess my opinion is that teams should have fear when they enter the paint. Intimidation plays a big factor in basketball. The Mavs don't intimidate anyone.

Quote:

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c
I'm with you on this one FFM. I have no problem with Fin letting Lebron go on that break. Fin was trailing and with James' strength would have had to commit a very hard foul putting both guys in danger to ensure he didn't get an and-1. We're not in the playoffs yet and that kind of play wasn't really necessary. Once the second season starts up I hope the team will start using some of those fouls when guys get into the lane in a halfcourt set, but on a break like that I just don't see what the big deal is.

Why should they fear a 6'7 guard? That is what your center is for not your shooting guard.

Simon2 · 03-31-2004, 11:27 PM

You don't have to be big to be tough. 6'7 is not small. You don't have to be a center to show toughness. That's exactly why the Mavs are not respected around the league. They don't intimidate anyone. Walker is now playing center. Oh boy!

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Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs

Quote:

Originally posted by: Simon2
No way! Fin wasn't trailing. He actually stepped aside to let Lebron dunk. Did you see Lebron take so many easy shots? If Fin let him have it, he would think twice before he drove to the basket. I guess my opinion is that teams should have fear when they enter the paint. Intimidation plays a big factor in basketball. The Mavs don't intimidate anyone.

Quote:

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c
I'm with you on this one FFM. I have no problem with Fin letting Lebron go on that break. Fin was trailing and with James' strength would have had to commit a very hard foul putting both guys in danger to ensure he didn't get an and-1. We're not in the playoffs yet and that kind of play wasn't really necessary. Once the second season starts up I hope the team will start using some of those fouls when guys get into the lane in a halfcourt set, but on a break like that I just don't see what the big deal is.

Why should they fear a 6'7 guard? That is what your center is for not your shooting guard.

grndmstr_c · 03-31-2004, 08:53 PM

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The team that will win a championship in dallas does not have Finley, Walker, or Nelson on it. A championship will be won by the younger players such a Dirk, Howard, and Daniels.

Sorry. That's going too far. Fin's an all-star caliber SG. It just doesn't make any sense to say that a guy who's as good as Finley can't be a part of a Mavs team that wins a championship.

dirkFREAKINnowitzki · 03-31-2004, 08:58 PM

No, that is not going too far. This team does not have the right parts to win a championship. By the time they get them, and allow time to gel (maybe 2 or 3 years), how old will Finley be? A team must trade an aging player before they start cutting their minutes, or trade value will decline greatly. He is still productive now, but what about 3 years from now?

grndmstr_c · 03-31-2004, 09:12 PM

The only way you could say that Fin couldn't be a part of a championship team would be if trading Fin was the only way to get the necessary parts. Since Finley is a considerable way from being the team's most tradeable asset, not to mention a long way from being the team's most expendable or redundant asset, there isn't really any firm ground on which to support an argument that Fin must be traded to get what the Mavs need. Is it possible that trading Finley could help the Mavs win a championship? Sure. But it's by no means necessary, and in fact there are probably more scenarios in which trading Fin would hurt the Mavs chances than in which it would help since his trade value right now is probably not as high as his on-court value to the franchise.

dirkFREAKINnowitzki · 03-31-2004, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c
The only way you could say that Fin couldn't be a part of a championship team would be if trading Fin was the only way to get the necessary parts. Since Finley is a considerable way from being the team's most tradeable asset, not to mention a long way from being the team's most expendable or redundant asset, there isn't really any firm ground on which to support an argument that Fin must be traded to get what the Mavs need. Is it possible that trading Finley could help the Mavs win a championship? Sure. But it's by no means necessary, and in fact there are probably more scenarios in which trading Fin would hurt the Mavs chances than in which it would help since his trade value right now is probably not as high as his on-court value to the franchise.

One must not live in the past. You consider Finley an All-Star guard. When was that? 2, 3, or 4 years ago? When will he be one again? Possibly never. I never said Finley couldn't be a part of a championship team. He WILL NOT be a "all-star" guards with the Mavs when they win a championship. The Mavs won't win for a few more years, in which Finley will be a much lesser player than he is now. And you would not have to have to get the necessary parts in a Finley deal. Just pieces. Young talent that will be fine players in the near future. Chicago can help Dallas out in Dallas future and Finley can help their box office out now. With Finley's experience, hard work, leadership by example, and home town favoritism on his side, he would help staighten the Bulls.

Sure there are probably more scenarios in which trading Fin would hurt the mavs, but.....there are probably quite a few that could help them. As far as his on court value, it is time for some players to step up (dirk) and boys to grow into men (howard and daniels) Both spent 4 years in college.

grndmstr_c · 03-31-2004, 10:38 PM

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One must not live in the past. You consider Finley an All-Star guard. When was that? 2, 3, or 4 years ago?

Fin could have/should have been an all-star reserve this year, so there's really no need to go back 3 or 4 years.

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I never said Finley couldn't be a part of a championship team.

And I quote: "The team that will win a championship in dallas does not have Finley, Walker, or Nelson on it."

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The Mavs won't win for a few more years, in which Finley will be a much lesser player than he is now.

Pure speculation. You have no way of knowing that either of these is true.

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And you would not have to have to get the necessary parts in a Finley deal. Just pieces.

It would be stupid to trade a cornerstone of the franchise who's still capable of contributing at a high level for anything other than players who put you over the top. Just pieces won't cut it.

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Sure there are probably more scenarios in which trading Fin would hurt the mavs, but.....there are probably quite a few that could help them. As far as his on court value, it is time for some players to step up (dirk) and boys to grow into men (howard and daniels) Both spent 4 years in college.

The only potentially plausible and beneficial Finley trade for the Mavs that I've heard would be a Chicago deal in which the Mavs get a Top 3 pick and one of Chicago's bigs, and that may very well be wishful thinking. Beyond that, it is exceedingly shortsighted to pin the future hopes of a team that is at most a starting center away from serious contention on a pair of untested rookies, I don't care how many years of college they had. If a good deal comes along for Fin, then take it, but again, this all started because you claimed that the Mavs would not win a championship with Finley on the team. I have yet to see any argument from you that even comes close to backing that statement up.

dirkFREAKINnowitzki · 03-31-2004, 10:51 PM

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Originally posted by: grndmstr_c

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One must not live in the past. You consider Finley an All-Star guard. When was that? 2, 3, or 4 years ago?

Fin could have/should have been an all-star reserve this year, so there's really no need to go back 3 or 4 years.

COULD HAVE, SHOULD HAVE, WOULD HAVE..........

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I never said Finley couldn't be a part of a championship team.

And I quote: "The team that will win a championship in dallas does not have Finley, Walker, or Nelson on it."

MAYBE ELSEWHERE.

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The Mavs won't win for a few more years, in which Finley will be a much lesser player than he is now.

Pure speculation. You have no way of knowing that either of these is true.

LOOK AT THE KINGS. DALLAS IS AT LEAST A YEAR BEHIND THEM

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And you would not have to have to get the necessary parts in a Finley deal. Just pieces.

It would be stupid to trade a cornerstone of the franchise who's still capable of contributing at a high level for anything other than players who put you over the top. Just pieces won't cut it.

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Sure there are probably more scenarios in which trading Fin would hurt the mavs, but.....there are probably quite a few that could help them. As far as his on court value, it is time for some players to step up (dirk) and boys to grow into men (howard and daniels) Both spent 4 years in college.

The only potentially plausible and beneficial Finley trade for the Mavs that I've heard would be a Chicago deal in which the Mavs get a Top 3 pick and one of Chicago's bigs, and that may very well be wishful thinking. Beyond that, it is exceedingly shortsighted to pin the future hopes of a team that is at most a starting center away from serious contention on a pair of untested rookies, I don't care how many years of college they had. If a good deal comes along for Fin, then take it, but again, this all started because you claimed that the Mavs would not win a championship with Finley on the team. I have yet to see any argument from you that even comes close to backing that statement up.

FIN WILL BE TOO OLD. I AM SAYING THAT THE TEAM NEEDS TO GO YOUNG TO INCREASE THEIR CHANCES 2-3 YEARS DOWN THE ROAD.

kg_veteran · 03-31-2004, 11:07 PM

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COULD HAVE, SHOULD HAVE, WOULD HAVE..........

It's not really debatable. Finley's having an excellent season, and his skills have not declined in the least.

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I never said Finley couldn't be a part of a championship team.

And I quote: "The team that will win a championship in dallas does not have Finley, Walker, or Nelson on it."

MAYBE ELSEWHERE.

This makes no sense. You said you didn't say it, but you did.

Backpedal.

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LOOK AT THE KINGS. DALLAS IS AT LEAST A YEAR BEHIND THEM

Is that why we beat them in the playoffs last year?

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FIN WILL BE TOO OLD. I AM SAYING THAT THE TEAM NEEDS TO GO YOUNG TO INCREASE THEIR CHANCES 2-3 YEARS DOWN THE ROAD.

Don't you get it? They can keep the young guys and Fin. And that's what they're going to do.

MavsFanFinley · 03-31-2004, 11:48 PM

Simon2, are you telling me that you've not once seen a player get out of the way of something he couldn't stop? I've seen the play a couple times and I don't see what Fin would have accomplished by fouling him. Taken a charge when Lebron was at full force? Or should he have slapped at the ball while he was going up and knocked him off balance? Or should he have wrapped him up and not only chanced hurting Lebron but himself as well.

I've seen Dirk, Nash, Duncan, Webber, Kobe, and others get out of the way instead of hurting a player.

Why don't you tell us what he should have done. Here's one angle of the play.

dude1394 · 03-31-2004, 11:53 PM

Silly argument about a durn dunk. If he had pushed him and something would have happened the same folks who jumped all over fortson would be out. Hard "fouls" are one of the worst parts of the NBA game. Stupid that the players and teams get an advantage from it and stupid that the league promotes it.

MavsFanFinley · 03-31-2004, 11:53 PM

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FIN WILL BE TOO OLD. I AM SAYING THAT THE TEAM NEEDS TO GO YOUNG TO INCREASE THEIR CHANCES 2-3 YEARS DOWN THE ROAD.

I have no problem with the Mavs wanting or needing to trade Finley if it's something that would benefit the cap 2-3 years from now. Or they want to go in a new direction or just plain don't want him here any longer.

BUT, I think it would be terribly sad and pathetic to trade someone simply because they'll be old in a couple years. Nash will be old in a couple years as well but I don't see you crying for him to be traded. Dirk should be traded in 5 years because he'll be really old a couple years after that? That doesn't make any sense.

Should we go notify Malone that he's too old to be playing?

Murphy3 · 04-01-2004, 01:20 AM

Fin could have made a play on LeBron. However, if he were to make a play, it's likely that:

1. LeBron would have been at the line trying to complete a three point play
or
2. LeBron would have been sent flying to the floor

Fin didn't have a realistic chance to make an attempt on the play that would have resulted in something positive for the Mavs.

chumdawg · 04-01-2004, 01:49 AM

Hell difference does it make, anyway, when they lost by as many as they did?